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user17242583
00:01
@RyanM Yes, there is: I haven't any left today!
user17242583
(or rather, yesterday, when I submitted them I didn't ;)
Generally, you should be casting your own vote. If you're out, generally it's good to wait until you have more, unless there's a reason to handle it quickly.
@tacoshy Lack of research effort is not a close reason. I've removed that from your request (and your comment).
 
1 hour later…
user17242583
01:36
@RyanM Ah, okay. I'll do that then.
@NathanOliver cc @IanCampbell @cigien Unfortunately, the non-commercial aspect makes it incompatible with the license for SO. You could go from SO to it, but not from it to SO.
user17242583
Do you mean "cast your own vote and don't del-pls", or "cast your own vote and do del-pls"?
@richardec Not to speak for Ryan, but I believe the advice is: if you are going to *-pls you should be casting at least one of the votes yourself. Cast your delete vote then del-pls. cast your close vote then cv-pls
I'm open to be corrected if I've misunderstood
user17242583
@HenryEcker Ah, gotcha. I'll make sure to do that.
02:23
Sorry about my comment, but gosh, he just set himself up there, no?
02:37
@Makyen sigh, that's unfortunate indeed. But thanks for the clarification.
 
1 hour later…
04:06
@richardec Henry is correct that I meant the latter. It's fine to request some sparingly if you occasionally are out of votes and see something in need of handling (or you want an answer deleted but don't have 20k, for instance), but in general you should try to cast your own votes in order to require fewer other people to review and vote, especially in non-urgent cases where it's just a matter of waiting until your votes refresh.
2
maybe this should be in the SOCVR FAQ? Rule #12 kind of implies this ("asking 2 others"), but does not say so explicitly. cc @Makyen, @TylerH. I can submit a PR
04:25
stackoverflow.com/questions/71970436/… opinion based? (Open Bounty) (NATO)
user17242583
@RyanM Alright. I understand this.
@SurajRao Yes, unquestionably. However, at this point, just let the bounty run since they've already gotten the advertising of the question they paid for, and we wouldn't want to refund it now.
ah.. I should probably retract the mod flag
Eh, we can ignore a mod flag for a couple days :-p up to you
user17242583
eeeek...that question needs to be deleted!
user17242583
04:33
"Flutter can even build the web at once(more windows, linux, macOS)." - stackoverflow.com/a/72374154/17242583
user17242583
"I would say flutter is easier to learn. it also has readily available tools to use. " - stackoverflow.com/a/72386422/17242583
user17242583
user17242583
I can't believe such an answer got 7 upvotes. Shameful. Looks like the answerers are all rep hunters though...nothing more.
"1st thing that needs to be considered is SEO ranking." - Just No
04:36
Yeah, it's...kind of a disaster. But the moderators are generally disinclined to give back the rep paid for promoting such things if they've already gotten 6.5 out of their 7 days' worth...
And we can't close/delete without refunding the bounty.
user17242583
@RyanM Hmm, I didn't think of that. But by you refunding the bounty, the OP would get back 100, but lose 8*10-3*2 = 74, leaving them with 26 more rep than they have now...
@richardec If we wait two days, we can close and/or delete the whole thing without refunding the bounty.
user17242583
@RyanM Hmm...I guess so. Not sure why I didn't think of that. So a net loss.
user17242583
You ought to be able to just end a bounty though.
There are many things we ought to be able to do but can't ;-)
05:20
@Nick "I have a question", followed by a list of 5 questions :)
@Cristik Well, I guess each one is "a" question :)
"I have a question which you have to answer that question"
@Cristik don't forget the sixth one in the title!
06:52
@Nick Someone flagged that as "Needs debugging details"...
Wow, now-a-days spam are very good in masquerading themselves.
@RyanM Was it me? Coz I flagged something.
@RyanM wow indeed... the mind boggles...
@PraveenKumarPurushothaman You cannot send close flags :-)
It also got a flag for being "a blurred line between trolling and asking a pointless question"
@RyanM Oh sorry! 😅
You didn't flag that particular post at all.
06:54
@RyanM lucky there was a mod on hand to handle that one! :)
I was feeling nice and marked it helpful with a note to flag as spam next time.
Which of course they'll probably never see because no one outside of this room reads those :-p
 
1 hour later…
08:17
@SurajRao this seems a "how to" question, isn't there a suitable duplicate maybe?
@SurajRao hmmmm...it's close but doesn't include the credentials
is that the same module?
also the node modules aren't the same
one is ftp, the duplicate target uses ftps
@RyanM the second answer maybe does, but it doesn't look like the same module, neither in the Q nor in the As
08:22
not sure though if those aren't coming from the same module, since the question doesn't give enough information about this
Yeah, and it's SFTP, not FTP. Which isn't the same thing at all.
to me the question is unclear
or needs debugging details
it's not a debugging question
@Cristik I agree, unclear pending OP clarifying what module is that
then they are asking for a tutorial on the ftp module?
08:24
@blackgreen the accepted answer does use ftp module. They installed an additional ftp-client wrapper
node-ftp package is installed as npm i ftp github.com/mscdex/node-ftp#install
@SurajRao ok, seems reasonable. then the dupe might apply just fine
I left a comment, at this point it can probably stay closed as "clarity", and "leave closed" as duplicate in case it gets pushed to review
08:39
is this code review question keepable here: stackoverflow.com/questions/57404002/…?
@Cristik I don't really see how that would benefit future users. It seems specific to their implementation.
 
1 hour later…
 
2 hours later…
11:42
Apparently this question is now an audit in the reopen queue
and a bad audit, because definitely the edit shown resolves closure
Sigh. I've griped about this before, but I forget where.
It's 100% a bug, it should not do that.
it should not show up as an audit, you mean?
Yes
uhm, we could just undelete it
and possibly even reopen
I agree. Done.
But the system is still going to give invalid audits in the future from other posts.
11:45
not sure I get it, if a post is closed and deleted (and downvoted?) it could be a reasonable reopen audit
maybe not a post that got edited?
Sure, as long as it wasn't edited since...yeah.
right, in this case though it seems the roomba ate the post after it was edited
Or even if the audit showed the pre-edit version.
the audit did show me the revision
Or if they want edited posts, use ones that went through Reopen review and got "Leave Closed"
11:47
(which is why I chose reopen, and failed the audit)
@blackgreen That's one that the user should definitively ticked that box.
eh right
There is a new trend or I didn't see it before, the bold and bigger font size, specially in answers. I feel it is mostly used to make the answer in highlight in contrast of the others, or maybe to make it more voluminous as more long or maybe more important. It "hurts" my eyes reading and makes me irritated. Have you seen the trend or it is just me?
Did you edit out the unnecessary formatting?
Also, no, I've seen that since I've read post anywhere.
I haven't noticed that, I usually see bold being used to visually separate sections (which is fine, IMO)
11:55
I dunno if it's gotten worse lately, but I've definitely seen people do it.
I see the misuse or the abuse of bold. Last example, not the worst: stackoverflow.com/a/61159513/5468463. Are the bold and bigger font size really necessary?
@Vega I used to format it to a smaller size but someone pointed out that H1 and H2 are important for screen readers so leaving the oversized font in is important for accessibility.
Morning
@Vega If they are not just edit them out
11:57
@Vega h1 seems a tad too much
@Braiam I think I tried for some and lost patience :(
@Vega so at best, that should be changed from H1 to H2 to keep accessibility... An argument can also be made that if you're seeing the font too large the problem is with your system fonts not the heading being used.
Logic being that H1 is by default for the post title, so headings underneath it can be H2 no problem.
Using headings in a long answer isn't abuse, its good formatting
@Vega Making the internet a better place is not a race, its more like tending a garden. Just patiently and consistently prune and take care of the content
Hot take: SO should disable H1 formatting or dramatically reduce its size.
12:00
There shouldn't be any H1 formatting allowed in posts. The H1 formatting on a page is the question title.
2
@RyanM isn't the rendering done client-side by the browser?
Based on SO's CSS, yes.
Thank you all for your inputs. I will take it more on me, try to edit the worst cases and move on :)
Make sure to ping them in the comments and ask them to accept your answer tell them to stop abusing formatting.
Or, you could just click edit and fix it yourself.
12:02
@CodyGray I asked, and got back "mind your own business"
Oh... that's nice...
the size of which is defined...here
BTW, H1 comes from CommonMark and SE would be very unwilling to go back again to its non-standard markdown support
You could keep the Markdown the same, just treat H1s specified in Markdown as something lesser.
If prepending #<space> or adding ===== below a line doesn't produce h1, it will be bad UX, since it's violating the principle of least surprise
12:05
It would still produce a heading, it just wouldn't produce H1, because this Markdown is generating content for a constrained environment where there is already a top-level heading.
And worse still, it would be a waste of time: if it bothers you so much, just edit it out!
@Vega and I thought you they were going to reply: "Laissez-faire" et "vive la liberté"!!
not that it means much to some ppl...
How is it less of a waste of time to have editors fix every post than to implement a system-level fix for a problem?
4
@bad_coder Hahaha. I typed at least 5 or 6 replies (in English), but didn't post
@Vega There. Better now.
@CodyGray Because the system will be in the way of editors that know better and need to use H1 :)
12:12
@Braiam Yes, the post looks so much more "useful" :)
Those editors are wrong. There is no appropriate use of H1 in a post.
And, again, I must ask an incredulous question: how is it "better now" to remove the step-by-step instructions and hide them behind a link that might rot?
Yeah, you kind of...deleted most of the content there.
But it's so much easier to read now!
That is the challenge of the edits
or the good edits
Wait, there is a part of the answer that is gone?
12:16
Yes, a large part. Look at the side-by-side markdown view.
Looks to me like that edit should be rolled back
I sure am happy about all the time that this approach is saving us.
I am confused and feel guilty. It wasn't my intention to make anyone make an edit, specially a controversial and, mostly, more time consuming than it could have been if I would edit or ignore it
@Vega You should not feel guilty. The post was, in fact, in need of an edit...just not the one that was made.
 
2 hours later…
14:59
Oops, wrong question can an RO please remove that ^
@miken32 removed
user17242583
15:40
What should I do about this edit revision? It's very rude ("Can you write like an educated person?"), but it's 6 years old (from 2016)...
custom mod flag
user17242583
Though it's so old?
(do mods even have tools to do anything about it?)
we shouldn't be out looking for rude content (even revisions) from all of time, but if we come across them, there's nothing wrong with pointing them out
Yep, we can edit revision comments. I handled that one.
user17242583
@RyanM haha, thank you! I guess a mod flag will do next time ;)
15:49
@richardec I did the Jedi hand wave when reading that out loud.
16:07
I think downvotes on answers should work like review suspensions. First downvote: OP loses 1 rep; second one, OP loses another 2; third one, loses 4, etc.
... 5 or 6 downvotes would then probably make the OP think about self deleting, and thus saving curators the bother.
@AdrianMole Do downvoters also lose increasing amount of rep?
No ... don't be silly.
ATM, it takes 5 downvotes just to "equalize" the rep from 1 upvote.
...yeah.
I've been dreaming of an "anti-bounty". Where you can drop a bunch of rep to say this is a bad answer.
2
@AdrianMole Would be nice to implement this retroactively. There are answers with > 10 downvotes.
And what happens when that answer is deleted? Do you get the rep back?
16:11
What kind of "bad answer?"
The problem is that if it's already at, say, +10, then a -1 is a drop in the bucket. But if an expert might have a much better grasp of why it's wrong.
Blatantly incorrect answers that have even a few upvotes are very hard for ordinary users/curators to remove.
@GeneralGrievance Something you'd be willing as an expert to put down rep, so it's not (as) visible.
@AdrianMole And on older questions, you can find a blatantly incorrect with score in the three digits.
@AdrianMole Of course we're not here to remove them, but I know what you mean. Extremely frustrating at times.
That would be nice. Too bad about all the new users that answer once and never come back though.
16:14
Or maybe not quite as harsh: rep losses of, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 4, 8, 8, 16 ...
i mean
it wasn't wrong
it just has bad side effects
The votes are +122 / -42 if it matters.
16:40
@miken32 That question has a bounty and cannot be closed.
Hmm, close vote script doesn't check for a bounty before sending the request
1 message moved to SOCVR /dev/null (invalid request; bountied question)
17:23
@miken32 Hmmmm... it does for me.
@Makyen I used the checkbox on the standard close dialog, not the cv-pls link
Ignore this one [tag:cv-pls] [tag:flutter] Needs Details Or Clarity How to decide flutter or react native for e-commerce app‭ - Ajay S‭ 2022-04-22 14:31:15Z
^ Yep that does the trick!.
Ahhh... well it doesn't check for SE being ... less than optimal... and allowing the user to open the close dialog when they can't actually use it.
@jmoerdyk Weird... I swear that's not the first time I've seen the i.stack.imgur URL broken in exactly that way. Is it the question editor's fault?
@Makyen Yeah, this can/should be changed. The code currently assumes that if the AJAX call is a success, then the close-vote was a success, but SE sends failures as data in a successful AJAX request (which is something normal for SE, so we should account for it).
17:33
Hmm. SO-speak: The request failed but it failed successfully.
Yeah, basically. :;
Could just check for .js-bounty-notification in the DOM before enabling the cv-pls link and checkbox
Is this / question a duplicate of this? (Same OP, which I didn't notice, at first.)
18:20
@miken32 That's also possible, but it wouldn't handle any other cases for which sending the CV isn't actually a success (which should really be done). It would also add yet another dependency on SE's HTML using a second way of detecting there's a bounty in a different section of code. If doing that, then I'd want to pull out the code elsewhere which is detecting that a bounty exists, move it into a separate function and do the detection for a bounty in only one place, so that when SE changes such that it breaks, we're not fixing it in multiple places. [Sorry, if this comes off a bit harsh. My frustration level with SE making changes and breaking things, and not making changes to fix clearly and obviously broken things, is a bit high right at the moment.]
20:27
@Turing85 It's been edited to not be POB anymore.
@TylerH @Turing85 binned this as it has been edited to remove the POB language; you may re-request for another reason if you feel one applies. CC @cigien
20:44
@TylerH Currently showing open bounty alert.
@GeneralGrievance No, the bounty is finished; it is in the grace period and thus closeable
oh wait, wth, it is blocked even during the grace period? the UX is not very good there
I almost walked away thinking my close vote went through (and would have if it weren't for GG's message)
@cigien Well, now it's "unfocused" and "off topic b/c it's basically a code review"...
I hate it that one cannot change the close reason....
@Turing85 I don't think "how can I achieve this result without this specific method" is unfocused or asking for a code review
such questions are fairly common SO
20:47
Is there a way to keep track of open bounty questions that need to get closed so we don't forget later?
@GeneralGrievance you can bookmark it in your browser, favorite it, or follow it
I have done the first of those,, personally
@GeneralGrievance the revisit-pls function of the cv-pls userscript
@OlegValteriswithUkraine Personally I think it's unnecessary; it should be understood that you ought to cast votes yourself on stuff you're posting *-pls for, when possible. But if we make it an expectation/rule then we invite a lot of nitpicking by others whenever it doesn't happen
This is probably the first or maybe second time in the room I've seen the concern raised so it is not currently a frequent or serious issue
if it becomes one I'm happy to revisit
@Turing85 If you think the question should now be closed for another reason, you can still post another cv-pls request. However, as mentioned above, it looks focused enough to me. It's also definitely not a code-review question since there's no attempt in the question, and hence nothing to review.
@RyanM Yikes, moderators can't see it either?
20:52
@TylerH @cigien shrug okay... maybe I'm just in a grumpy mood or didn't have enough sleep
Go have a beer and take a nap, SOCVR's orders :-P
It's FAQ#42, in fact ;)
@TylerH IMHO it would be a reasonable expectation, mainly because curators already run of votes easily enough, and to remind posters of *-pls requests that it's not necessary for the request to be now. On the other hand, it doesn't happen very often that people with the privilege request actions without voting themselves
21:22
why is the second one offensive?
user17242583
@TylerH They're both essentially gibberish, no?
user17242583
maybe this too, by the same user stackoverflow.com/a/72398154/17242583
gibberish is not the same thing as offensive; if it's just gibberish flag as NAA instead
user17242583
@TylerH I flagged them as R/A based on this
user17242583
Cody agreed that this was R/A
21:29
yeah... my understanding was gibberish was R/A
That's a different post by a different author so I don't know if Cody had other information about persistent spam, but R/A is also R/A, not offensive....
user17242583
You mean there's a difference between R/A and offensive?
user17242583
I don't understand.
I am not sure what argument others used for gibberish being R/A but to me this looks like not an answer... someone is attempting to respond to a question in a way that isn't an answer, and their attempt is hard to decipher, quite possibly because english is not their first or second language
I'm not gonna suggest that you can't flag such a thing as R/A, I just wouldn't recommend it because it doesn't seem "rude" or "abusive" to me (unless of course, like I said, you have evidence of persistent/repeat posts of that nature by that user)
oh, it's most certainly also NAA
i doubt you'd get a flag declined for an NAA on typical gibberish
did the answer get edited?
i swear it was far more gibberish, rather than just being a different language + an email
user17242583
@KevinB Nope, it wasn't edited, jut deleted (by author).
user17242583
There were 3 of such NAAs though, two of which were in spanish so maybe you're mixing one up..
wrong language i wouldn't consider ra
though... i accept it can often be hard to tell teh difference
I did red-flag the wrong language one specifically because of the e-mail address
I feel that will get it deleted faster... though hopefully it is at least the OP's own email address...
21:50
@TylerH The use of R/A for gibberish comes from the canonical on MSE "Abuse of the system or community is everything that is created with the intention to harm them. This includes posts by new users that contain no useful content at all – i.e. gibberish posts along the lines of: asdasdasdasdasdasdasdasdasdasdasdasd"
Which is linked from the flag posts privileges page
I haven't look at the context of this case. Just noting that we do use R/A flags for gibberish.
22:06
@HenryEcker well, the quote you just shared says "created with the intention to harm [the system or community]"
to me this just looks like someone attempting to engage with the user and not realizing that an answer is not the appropriate way to do it (again, likely because of a steep language barrier)
among other barriers
in this case it's not gibberish
is the author here intending to cause harm to the site? Doesn't seem likely to me at all
so it doesn't fit that to begin with
but I have to run now, and it is moot in this case since the comment is deleted now, too
user17242583
22:27
This question was just marked as R/A, but it was really just vandalized: stackoverflow.com/q/72398335/17242583
user17242583
What should be done about that? It looks like a mod might've done it without noticing that?
Well, the user has been destroyed, so, ... meh.
Un-destroying a user is nearly impossible.
user17242583
It was a 1-rep user, fwiw.
FWIW There was also an offensive word at the end of the gibberish... though that username sounds familiar... There might have been more information on the mod end
Agreed, I have no insider information, but the narrative has all the hallmarks of someone who might try posting that question over and over and over.
22:57
@IanCampbell Proposal for the C++26 Standard: An "undestructor" for all classes (implicitly provided by the compiler if no explicit one is defined).
@TylerH Nope, we cannot :-(
23:36
convert answer to comment? stackoverflow.com/a/52787859/2943403
user17242583
errr....another bountied off-topic question! stackoverflow.com/q/47889227/17242583
@richardec Ah, but this one is at the start...bounty canceled.
it did get an answer, but...not one that seems to have taken any real effort.
user17242583
@RyanM Nice. Did you refund it or actually cancel it?
Canceling a bounty refunds it
I'm not sure if it's actually possible even for staff to make an unawarded bounty go away without refunding it.
Can you (or anyone) refund a cancelled but awarded bounty?
... oops. Should've checked my flag history, first. ;(
... but it still shows the bounty as having been awarded, even though the post has been deleted.
23:53
@AdrianMole Yes, at least for devs: Shog9 did this once.
But Shog is special.
... he may have had many/most of his formal powers revoked, but he's still special.
I'm personally somewhat unclear on what happens if I delete a question or answer with an awarded bounty on it. This Shog9 post seems to imply it's refunded, but I'm pretty sure that's not universally true (e.g., if it's on an answer that would be eligible to keep rep after deletion).

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