« first day (739 days earlier)      last day (3300 days later) » 

19:00
@ProgramFOX You've completed 40 CV review items today, thanks! The time between your first and last review today was 23 minutes, averaging to a review every 34.4 seconds.
Sam
Sam
@ProgramFOX That's the one used in the Tavern.
user4639281
Hopefully we get this meeting underway before I have to go.
Sam
Sam
Strange.
Huh
=D
19:00
Shame he doesn't have a VPN
Sam
Sam
Here we go...
(hold a sec, talking to a guy)
@Sam lol, so the problem with your link appeared to be the invisible newline char that chat added
user4639281
Full house today.
Sam
Sam
@ProgramFOX lol
19:02
And when that thingy is removed, it just redirects to what I linked.
Sam
Sam
@Yam die
Dead anyway, rip.
@rene ping
Sam
Sam
@ProgramFOX Weird.
Hello everyone and welcome to the SOCVR December room meeting. I'm gunr and I'll be your captain. Please keep your hands and feet inside the chat room until we come to a full stop.
It's been a long time since I've said one of those.
Anyways, I'd like to start things off if everyone would like to give me the floor.
Here is the agenda for today:
- General Status of Room
- General Questions (prepare your questions now!)
- New RO's
Topic One: Status
Early last month we (everyone) had quite the wakeup call. I'm pleased to say that we have gotten back on track and we're a much better group because of it. Let's keep it up!
josilber passed a audit!
19:04
The only thing I would like to mention is an alleged increase requests. Over the weekend I parsed out the transcript data from the entire year. The number of CV requests have spiked in the last 3 months, but I haven't found anything else conclusive. I will be sharing any results I find with you guys later (also I forgot to bring my excel file to work today).
Topic Two: General Questions
For the next 20 or so minutes we will now open the floor to any questions people might have about the room - policies, RO's, members, etc.
Why do increased 's even matter?
Sam
Sam
@gunr2171 Is that per person, or overall?
user4639281
@Undo Because we don't want to replace the CVQ
@Sam overall, I'm investigating if there is a particular group of people or such that is doing it more than another
Then maybe we ought to have a set of guidelines on when they're appropriate
user4639281
19:06
CV-pls is very useful, when used correctly. But it is not appropriate in all circumstances.
@Undo we do, but it's vague at the moment
Because right now it sounds like 'they're inappropriate if they annoy me'
@gunr2171 That
once I get more hard data we will look at if requests are negitivly impacting the room
Sam
Sam
@gunr2171 Hmm. Well, the overall count won't account for much tbh, since the room has also increased in regulars over the past year too.
user4639281
19:08
Not a great example, but that is generally where we are at (the last time I checked). There are exceptions to every rule of course.
@Sam true, and I'm sure durron is most to blame (no offence)
anything else?
JAL
JAL
Yeah I have a question
Sam
Sam
@gunr2171 So what will you do after compiling conclusive results?
@Sam it went from 3 users to a lot lately in maybe little less then a year
@Sam Assuming it is conclusive...
19:11
@Sam depends on what we find. If everyone is submitting requests equally then we need to check if the total volume is ok
Sam
Sam
@gunr2171 Otherwise?
@gunr2171 Any idea what "total volume" is yet and what would be ok?
JAL
JAL
(full disclosure, I got in trouble with SO mods over Thanksgiving, and this was all independent of the SOCVR room). Are there any policies on taking disciplinary actions on room members? I made a mistake and messed up on SO. I'm trying to make it better, but I don't want this to impact my regular status with the room.
user4639281
Hey @Ed is here. Hi Ed!
[reading]
19:12
I want to go back at our current rules and what may be an issue with them: My favourite tag is the low-popularity , which is a Node.JS framework and often tagged with . The current rules mean I can all the time, funnily, because is subject to a lot of FGITW.
@DavidG there is no way any of us could set a hard-number for requests. It's always going to be flexible. I'm just looking for trends at the moment to figure out what we can expect for a volume in the coming months
user4639281
@Kyll With use of discretion of course. If it doesn't really need to be closed now then maybe wait. Also large amounts of request posted in a short period of time can be considered spam.
@gunr2171 Dumb idea, wouldn't a bot to do that be cool?
@Kyll I'm making one for that
Sam
Sam
@gunr2171 But what are you aiming to achieve by gathering this info?
19:14
Needs more bots.
@JAL so far there have not been any members that have activily gone against the room rules harmfully. We don't have anything in place at the moment.
@Kyll you could edit it mby?
@Sam This is purely investigation and due diligence on my part. CV are a public part of the room, and I want to see that we are doing it responsibly.
@JAL There is nothing that I know of. Of course if a user gets suspended they can no longer chat. If the user does not get suspended then all we can hope for is they learn from there mistakes. If a user goes against the room rules the could be get kicked
user4639281
@gunr2171 I'd imagine it would depend on the user's history in the room as well.
19:16
@easwee What do you mean?
user4639281
Hey @rene!
@Kyll remove the tag from question tags?
@easwee Well, Meteor is JavaScript. Most of the time, the tag fits perfectly.
@rene is it just me or is your flower more blurry than usual?
I didn't think this coffee was spiked...
@Kyll sry maybe I've got your question wrong
19:17
@Kyll The same rules apply, but we should probably add one that is volumetric; for high traffic tags, just increase your own sensitivity. AKA for questions, you might have to accept some FGITW
user4639281
@easwee He's saying that based on the current guidelines around cv-pls, he is pretty well open to request cv's for every bad question he sees, which is not intended.
though it should be mentioned that FGITW is not inherently bad
@TinyGiant ok got it
Sam
Sam
@gunr2171 Oic. So how will you judge whether or not we are using 'es responsibly?
@TylerH That would be a fun game. Progressively increase the blur on your avatar over the course of 6 months.
user4639281
19:18
@TylerH No, but avoiding FGITW on bad questions is a good reason for a cv-pls.
Sam
Sam
Seeing as there is no fixed limit/rule.
@TylerH I'm not saying that I overuse (which I don't), only that the current rules kinda mean I could
I joined via a VM running on the US East coast
user4639281
Automatic deletion and all of that.
Sam
Sam
@rene Welcome back!
19:19
@Sam first get some hard data. Right now I'm just looking for trends (like "are we having an increase in <3k requests?")
user4639281
@Kyll Which is something that gunr's stats could help us fix.
maybe we could use the only in case of a question which is likely to never be improved (this can be very subjective but in most cases you can spot it a mile away if you did some significant ammount of reviews)
We go back to the bot again? =p
user4639281
@easwee That is again highly ambiguous.
or in a case where 3+ CVs are present and question has not been improved for a while
because we don't want to rush to close it
many users do improve the question after few hours
Sam
Sam
19:20
@gunr2171 Right, right.
user4639281
@easwee cv-pls should not be used on questions that already have multiple close votes.
Sam
Sam
@TinyGiant Unless they are about to age away.
dunno - I'm just discussing :)
user4639281
Only questions that are unlikely to be closed otherwise, or should be closed quickly to avoid fgitw.
@Sam Is there any way to tell that?
JAL
JAL
19:21
@Sam Do we actually know when CVs are going to age away?
Some time back, the suggestion was made to "batch" cv-pls requests, for example when cleaning a particular tag. So, instead of many individual requests, we'd ask that a few folks filter for the target tag during an event. That seems to work well.
@Mogsdad I have no problem with this. It does not cause as much of a "targeted" attack
@JAL 14 days, I think
@gunr2171 That also depends on the post activity
Sam
Sam
@NathanOliver Nope. But it's possible for a user come in here and post a if he knows that his previously cast CV is about to age away (and if there aren't any new CVs).
JAL
JAL
@gunr2171 I mean, do we know how much time is left on a vote
19:23
oh, I don't think so
Sam
Sam
@gunr2171 I thought it was 4
user4639281
I gotta go in a minute. Can we get to the new RO's part then continue the questions?
sure
waits
19:24
(skipping the part about durron, will get to that after)
That conversation is going to be very difficult to read through in the bookmark
However, this now creates an empty RO slot that we would like to fill. Here is how this is going to work.
Starting now (Nov 30th) and ending Thursday, Dec 3rd, anyone here is free to nominate themselves to the position. Create a Github Gist explaining why you would make a good RO. On Friday, Dec 4th, the RO's will debate and choose a winner. Feel free to discuss on people's Gists.
9
I would love to have a public election, but there are two major hurdles: where to vote and who gets to vote.
The best site for voting I've found is OPAVote, but the hard part there is getting the emails of participants, and depending on the time frame I would need to pay (though it's only $5-10).
The second issue is determining who gets to vote. We don't want people outside the group voting and skewing the results. This is a public chat room - how do you tell who is a "regular", and how do you get them private information?
For this RO selection we're going to do the "I'm an employer, get ready for your interview" method. As people complete their nomination writeups please ping me with the link and I'll put them in a central repository.
For future elections I would love to have a more "Stack Overflow" method to the election. If anyone finds a better way or can build something reliable
@TinyGiant what about "too old to be migrated" questions
those are a good candidate for cv-plz mby
Good luck everyone! Any questions?
user4639281
@easwee Old questions attracting new answers yes, but use that in the cv-pls reason.
19:26
@gunr2171 Future elections? I thought you guys were benevolent dicatators room owners for life!
user4639281
@gunr2171 I can, not in the timeframe allotted but for the next one.
@TinyGiant sounds like a plan
Hmm we need a vote bot!
Needs more bots!
@Mogsdad Well if the room keeps expanding we may need more RO's to spoil all of the fun
19:27
thb even though I've been in this room for last 2 years daily I still don't really see a need for many room owners
a vote bot that can do single runoff voting
general public here is very well educated and room owner intervention is rarely needed
user4639281
Anyways, I'll be running for Room Owner, will work up the gist later. (whodathunkit?)
unless RO get's the job to schedule events also
Would you want the vote bot to keep votes private though?
19:28
@easwee Really, missed that...
@DavidG the public or private voting needs to be discussd later
@rene wat :D
user4639281
Gotta go, don't have too much fun while I'm gone.
have fun!
we will
19:29
@rene you don't visit other rooms much eh?
:P
nope
@NathanOliver I'd like to build on that comment. I noticed that the Android room, by default, is read only. Once approved, you can talk. I'm not sure that we've hit critical mass right now, but I could see us doing so sometime in the next three months. Does it make sense, now, to try to decide on what that threshold is, and whether it would make any sense, to have the room be read only?
^ Open for all, not just @NathanOliver
well - this room is Shakespeare recital compared to other rooms
Sam
Sam
@gunr2171 Can we nominate other users?
@LynnCrumbling I'd hate that. I like inviting people around to help them understand why their post got closed and how to improve it too.
19:30
@Sam in chat yes, but this is an "interview" style election. That person should want to be an RO
Unless any approved person can also approve, requiring RO intervention any time we invite someone would be urgh.
@Kyll a dedicated chat room is more appropriate for that don't you think?
@LynnCrumbling No, I don't like that at all. If we close up we run the high risk of getting accused of voting mobbery
@Kyll That's a very real problem. Making the room read-only pretty much means that an RO needs to be present to grant write privs, anytime someone is invited in.
@Kyll well you also get people coming here asking questions about their question being closed, so that is out of debate
Sam
Sam
19:31
@gunr2171 Sure
should be public
@Tunaki Maybe so, but maybe it's better to publicly show that we do care?
@gunr2171 That means I have to learn how to github...
@rene I agree. At least right now, there's the given fact that anyone can participate, as long as they follow the rules.
@LynnCrumbling If it becomes an issue that is an goo idea. So far everyone has been pretty good. We have only had a couple people use this room for non CV resons.
sorry about the delete. re posted
@Am_I_Helpful Please hold off on cv request untill the meeting is done.
19:32
(we're almost done)
Didn't @Am_I_Helpful do that last meeting too? ^^
no, that was someone else.
I think reading should be a prerequisite for posting
I asked that question, not because I'm in favor of it, but because I'm interested in the larger "What if" issue. It's fine to take the "we'll cross that bridge later" approach, but it might also be nice to have a back-up plan now. And maybe the plan is, if large number of individuals become a problem, they simply get banned.
JAL
JAL
I've only seen two users come in here and ask for coding help (over the past few months), one of which was redirected to the php room, and the other was told that their question would receive attention soon (they had just posted it). If there were more of these, I think it would warrant a "voiced" policy
19:34
Aka "innocent until proven guilty".
@LynnCrumbling I can see the banning happening before the room access being clamped down.
@LynnCrumbling but that is the point. Anyone should be able to participate/join/seek advice. It is up to the regulars how they handle that. By making it a little bit more difficult to enter/talk I don't see how we can easily grow our room
@NathanOliver Makes sense.
@rene I agree. It seems like a last-measure resort.
It simply shouldn't come that far but that isn't something the RO's can fix on their own
JAL
JAL
Another question: what are we going to do with the room tags? Maybe we can put the current top tags from closey up there? Or are we still waiting for shog?
19:36
@JAL We are still waiting for Shog9 on the burnation part.
@JAL personally, unless we decide to get back on burnination, I think we should go back to the top tags
@JAL You'll get that answer in 6-8 weeks
I can do the top tags from the queey
@rene I would think that the odds of things devolving to that are very low. You'd have to be banning somewhere upwards of one person per day in order for that to be a problem.
I'll try to ping Shog9 on the burnination effort but I don't expect anything before january
JAL
JAL
19:37
I feel like we might as well put the top tags there, make it useful. Hopefully then we can consolidate requests to those tags
@Am_I_Helpful We're still having the room meeting, please refrain from posting requests until it's over
@Am_I_Helpful You may want to hold off on these for a few minutes.
@Am_I_Helpful Eloquently trying to prove gunr's point about too many cv-pls requests...
@DavidG ...and providing an opportunity to experiment with banning.
/me nom noms popcornz
19:39
I don't wanna kick you @Am_I_Helpful but your ignorance of our requests isn't helping your case...
JAL
JAL
there's irony in there somewhere
@rene I mean, failure to abide by RO requests warrants a kick
@rene there goes my statement about this room
JAL
JAL
...
rofl
19:40
also not reading a room (even reading pings @ you) in a room where you're auto-posting should warrant a kick, too
first is warning, next is moving content from the room, next is kick
@JAL Indeed, I found an "i", an "r", an "o", and "n", and a "y"!
1 message moved to Trash can
@cybermonkey sorry, we're in the middle of the monthly meeting. Could you hold off for about 10 more minutes?
19:41
1 message moved to Trash can
2 messages moved to Trash can
1 message moved to Trash can
@gunr2171 Just make the room a gallery.
Oh, I have a quesjun too
josilber passed a audit!
@Kyll Go ahead
@Closey Room meeting atm!
19:43
@MadaraUchiha I was considering that.
It's like whack-a-mole
What is a gallery?
@gunr2171 pipe dream: create a SOCVR web-app/browser extension & live db; when you log into the web app/extension, it follows you around on SO, and when you CV manually, it adds a checkbox to the modal asking if you want to post a cv-pls request to this room (sound familiar?) and if one has already been posted in this room, it greys out the checkbox. If you check yes on several, like 3+ in a minute, or 5+ per hour, it says "whoa, slow down there, considering letting the site work naturally!"
@LynnCrumbling only approved users and ROs can talk
Isn't that what I was suggesting asking about?
I dunno, what were you asking about?
^ I wasn't suggesting it. Sorry.
Lemme find the permalink.
19:45
As @rene said we want people to be able to come here and talk about closing. having to ask for access limits that.
@LynnCrumbling maybe yes during room meeting, just to cut down on outside conversation
Sounds like that's a harsh step.
@Kyll is your question finding its way from your mind to your keyboard or did it get lost in noise?
I'm just concerned about fixing permissions afterwards
Oh - you were asking about it in context of the room meeting. Duh.
19:45
@rene Also at a work meeting, typing slowly
OK
Something that happens sometimes is that a question is closed solely by people of this room. Like, we find some tool rec, , it's closed in the minute. Shouldn't we, in those cases, have a policy of saying something like "This question opened a discussion in SOCVR chat (link)"?
wonders if @Kyll did meet the montly productivity targets
@Kyll Hmm, I like that
@Kyll just don't make it sound like a calling card
@TylerH The PHP room has a cv-pls log
19:48
Issues being, of course, that users without enough rep won't be able to join the room
that would be dreadful @Kyll (your longer post above)
Or had, rather. Seems to be offline.
And that we might have a flow of people popping in and asking how to improve unsalvageable stuff
And that more people would come in, in fury, and yell at us and tell we're sacrificing questions to the altars of our pagan gods
Stuff like that
@Kyll we might want to experiment with that idea, see how it goes
@Kyll I don't see the fact that things are closed solely by people in this room as a problem
19:50
@MadaraUchiha I was pipe dreaming of more than just a reading log
As long as you don't vote to close just because it came up in the room
@MadaraUchiha We appear as a vote gang
@Kyll That's what you are.
Have no mistakes.
I like the transparency part of it, maybe it should also link to a meta post about those type of questions. and suggest if things are still unclear they can ask here, if enough rep
Unless there actually IS a discussion, linking here would be a Bad Idea.
19:50
I agree, it is a gang imo. duh. But close on merit
@MadaraUchiha Why we vote doesn't matter at all. What we appear to vote for is what matters
^ true
But if every person actually takes the time to evaluate the question independently, there's no problem at all here.
@MadaraUchiha There is no way to tell that from the outside
@Kyll is it opposite day?
19:51
@Kyll This isn't the first room to have had
or did you mix those up
Particularly when we close some crap, and leave it to die alone
@MadaraUchiha tell that to the angry user who finds their question closed, then finds that it was closed by 5 people in chat
@gunr2171 Why do you care?
^^^ that (skip one)
19:52
@MadaraUchiha Back a few weeks ago we had some issues with a user, whose question we closed, who went into chat, Jon froze the room, much drama, meeting, new rules, ...
@MadaraUchiha because we have the power to insta-close a question
If the user is angry, they have channels to express it.
I see a cv-pls on css. I go there. Unless there is a green nose hair hanging out of it, I can't close that thing. What in the world do i know about css ?
They can come into this room and make a racket, in which case you have the tools to handle it.
Or they can pop into meta, and you can defend your decisions there.
@gunr2171 so do people with gold badges when it comes to dupes. some people get really pissed when you do this
19:52
and we should be responsible for addressing those
We also want to educate, assist users in better moderation. Only being a voting mob doesn't contribute to that.
This is a discussion we've had about 3 years ago in the PHP room
but php...
@rene I didn't dare to fire that shot
As long as there's an understanding that each voter must always evaluate the question they are voting for independently, there's absolutely no problem of there being a ring.
19:54
@MadaraUchiha Again, that's not the point, not at all
I think the group is worried a little bit too much about being politically correct/sensitive here. Some users seem to be worried about the perception of the room's actions instead of the quality of the room's actions
josilber passed a audit!
@Kyll as long as I steer free of any mods I should be fi... oh wait...
@Kyll I don't care about users moaning about questions that should have been closed anyway.
@TylerH Both are important, only one matters to users who just got their question closed
Sam
Sam
19:55
@TylerH I agree.
@Kyll one is far less important than the other, though, regardless of how users who just got their question closed may feel
You can't decide how the user will react to your actions. You can only decide whether you care about it or not.
You have room owners here with kicking powers
If a user comes here in order to troll and ruin the room for everyone, they can handle it.
If they do more, there are mods that can handle it.
If they want to be constructive about it, all the better.
If they go to meta to complain, defend your actions as individual voters.
That's all we can hope for.
As long as you are in the right, it doesn't matter how the user reacts
If a user reacts unconstructively, you can't really hope to educate them until they calm down anyway.
because individual voters are what we are, or we shouldn't be here
19:58
32
Q: Close vote seeding in PHP chat getting out of hand?

Steve RobbinsI don't mean to point fingers or cast blame on an individual, but I've noticed that PHP chat has a lot of cv-pls requests on questions that I believe are valid, to varying degrees. See here While I am all for cleaning up questions that don't belong, are off topic, etc, I worry that this cv-pls ...

This is the exact same discussion from 4 years ago
The policy hadn't changed since.
ok, I'll think this one over
that ^
thanks for the input
> What does this have to do with chat? – balpha♦ Jan 24 '12 at 19:45
>
> @balpha OP is describing a behavior he noticed in the PHP chat room... – Yannis Jan > 24 '12 at 19:51
>
> @YannisRizos: Oh I see, I missed that part. Thanks. – balpha♦ Jan 24 '12 at 19:54
I lolled
josilber passed a audit!
JAL
JAL
19:59
lol
Oi @josilber Stop passing Java audits.
well, if that's everything then this meeting is done

« first day (739 days earlier)      last day (3300 days later) »