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@SamuelLiew I've already seen. It's apparently because of the "failed review" from above.
I'm locked out for 2 days but I haven't failed any other reviews in weeks...?
the audit system is awful
@weegee Is that supposed to be two sentences? Or do I have a rep of 1 now? :-p
@Druckles It was a suspension joke, ignore it ;p
@NickA I didn't want to leave @weegee in suspense.
11:02
@Druckles that are the signs of suspension
Slowly your abilities are stripped and then suddenly your rep is 1.
It's like a disease. Only worse
@weegee Very suspensful.
@Druckles huh that's a bug then
@SamuelLiew nope
When you start making mistakes, some queues are "one mistake and you're out", even if it's been weeks
first time I'm hearing of that
I've experienced it twice I think
11:06
People who were here last night: am I mischaracterising George's statements in this answer? meta.stackoverflow.com/a/390025/1709587
alright @Druckles, carry on with more caution please
@SamuelLiew Oh, thank you :-)
And I'm always cautious ;-)
He seems unhappy with how I've described what he said but hasn't (yet) articulated any particular reason now. Wasn't he asserting that the only agreement mods sign is one whose only penalty for violating confidentiality is demodding, and therefore there are no consequences now for sharing information? Or have I somehow misunderstood?
@MarkAmery No, seems about right
Reads accurate to me
11:09
Okay, thanks for the sanity check
@MarkAmery The quote I had issue with is the “striking” quote.
Well, Yvette naturally doesn't have access to the TL during this period...
A bit meh. I think the point is we've only heard from one side, and while what's said may be factually accurate, it's mixed in with opinions and emotion
@GeorgeStocker You didn't mean to imply anything about their reason for not revealing stuff when you said it was "Striking" that they hadn't?
11:12
@GeorgeStocker I'm interested in your take on monica's latest write up of what happened. Do you think her retelling of the situation is accurate?
1 message moved to Trash can
1 message moved to Trash can
Yeah Zoe :P shush
I believe it's is reasonable to hold the position that Monica's position was intolerant. Though I myself wouldn't go that far, I would not describe those who do as intending to mislead.
@Magisch I posted a link to rob’s Description of what happened yesterday. It’s accurate.
11:13
Speaking of which - where did that post go?
However, it is the treatment of Monica that most people object to, rather than any (dis)agreement with her position
2
Yes, disagreements happen and they should for any healthy arguments that take place.
2
People claim Monica was let go because she “questioned” the policy.
Let me find rob’s post for comparison.
yesterday, by Rob
@JohnDvorak She was not de-modded for asking for clarification, or a discussion. It was a flat out refusal to agree to the terms we were asked to. There's debate between moderators as to whether the terms are fair. What the majority of mods agree on, is that the demodding of Monica wasn't handled in the best way possible
It appears there was private correspondence between her and staff, which nobody has any access to
I assume nobody has any access to
I asked Monica about it. She said there wasn't really much private discussion. What conversation there was took place via email.
11:17
Somebody might of course
@GeorgeStocker Most of what's been presented in public is unreasonable though.
Make Stackoverflow great again !!!
That's a laugh now.
@Zoethetransgirl what do you mean by that?
I don’t have an issue with people being upset about the timing. I take issue with distorting what happened to make it look like a “flat out refusal” (quoting rob) didn’t take place.
I mean exactly what I said. Some parts of the CoC as it has been presented so far are unreasonable. That, however, is a CoC discussion.
2
11:20
SE has got enough to fix without trying to correct false assertions.
I guess you could say SE CoC-ed up.
2
@Zoethetransgirl I am purposefully avoiding that since it’s not changed for the public yet.
@GeorgeStocker Care to define "flat out refusal" more precisely?
Wasn't there supposed to be a statement from SE today?
There are many things I can imagine being characterised as that where I would object to the characterisation
11:21
@ModusTollens There's still lots of today left :-p
e.g. "I will not be able to comply with this, because it is literally impossible in Hebrew"
@MarkAmery it’s pretty clear on its own. I can’t be more clear without quoting the conversation, which I won’t do and which is forbidden anyway.
@GeorgeStocker Judging by the discussion, it seems pretty clear it'll come out in a form similar to how it's been presented
@MarkAmery I think "flat out refused" is clear enough without requiring quotes of private messages.
or "I often do X. I intend to keep doing X. Can you clarify whether this a violation?"
4
Okay. That would make Monica's post a distortion, then.
11:23
Guys, the publicly available information can't answer that.
No point in asking over and over again.
We can't keep pseudo-talking about non public information
Mods don't know either what was exchanged in the communication (if any at all) between Monica and the CM team, and why the sudden need to let her go on that specific day instead of after the festivities. It's best not to speculate further since nothing will change until then.
I'm now curious about whether the stars on chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/47463844#47463844 imply that it's accurate (in which case, no, that's not a flat-out refusal and is what Monica already told us).
I rather let the Team present a proper statement from their end
11:24
So stop mentioning it, @OrangeDog.
I think I said it here, I may have said it elsewhere. Monica’s post is monica’s Perception of what happened. Everyone’s post is their perception. None that I’ve yet read track with the objective facts an observer would see.
It’s one of those Rorschach test situations.
@GeorgeStocker you are not the judge of objective facts
Anyway, I need to do my job for a bit
11:25
@OrangeDog, I suggest you drop it.
Can George also then drop it?
This is not a request.
The Nats won last night.
Barely
@MarkAmery wait, isn't this our day job? Don't we get paid?
@rene If we are I would like to know more about that. 9_9
11:30
Yeah, I need a raise.
I'm requesting a 45% raise
Raise? I say all in
I call
I fold
I'm a cactus and therefore incapable of playing poker or indeed move or gesture at all.
11:32
@Magisch You prick
funny joke huh :D
Yet you can somehow understand english & operate a computer
But you can't move
Telapathic cactus?
I once tried eating a cactus.
Because of L.A Beast
How'd that work out for you
Yikers
Did it pique your interest?
I was very much inspired by it
11:33
Not sure i fancy watching him go to the bathroom again
I've already seen that video once thanks
Maybe I'll visit Deutschland in my learning period and eat Magisch.
@weegee can you unonebox that
What is unonebox?
Edit it so that it's a link and not a onebox.
edit the message to prepend or append text outside of the link to prevent embedding
11:35
1 message moved to Trash can
If you can manage the spikes in your neck, you can eat it.
but...why?
It's delicious
Just like ice cream bread and pineapple pizza
@weegee You could just shave the cactus first.
@Druckles I am a real man. Sorry no.
@weegee one of these things is not like the others
11:39
@weegee "Real men do stupid things".tv
@AndrasDeak Because you never tasted them
@Druckles That's why they are men.
@weegee But you're not a real Scotsman.
A man does not belong anywhere. He belongs to only and only the jungle
@weegee The jungle of stupidity...?
I thought stupidity was a desert ...
11:44
@Druckles The jungle of cactus.
@AnsgarWiechers Exactly
@AnsgarWiechers Mmm, dessert.
Ansgar got it. The question is: When will you?
I unlocked Sara’s answer. Please don’t make me regret it.
8
thanks, George
11:46
How did you know I already got dessert?
@AnsgarWiechers I'm not stupid ;-)
@GeorgeStocker any idea if the company will be able to hold to the yesterday or today timeline?
@GeorgeStocker I hope it lasts
I don't always agree with George's actions, but when I do, I do
Welcome to the jungle?
11:47
@AnsgarWiechers Because you figured out the desert part
@Brandon_J it wasn't an exact figure
And in any case things have (d)evolved, it wouldn't be surprising if it took longer. What you should focus on is that they plan(ned) to say something
@Brandon_J I hope. Unfortunately there were more events yesterday that put a crimp in things (from my perspective - I have not asked if it affected them but I will assume it did)
@AndrasDeak I know it wasn't exact - I was just curious of the status
11:48
Apparently, you are mortals beings and it will take years of work and meditation to achieve something like me.
@Brandon_J The status is company side, we'll find out at the time
9 months should suffice.
@GeorgeStocker ergh, more things? As much as the resignations seem shady, I wish people would calm down a little bit and let you guys answer.
shady?
Some (not all) of the resignations have "I can't go on in good conscience" stuff
11:51
@Brandon_J not “me guys” to be clear. I’m just a volunteer trying to moderate SO 😃
Now, it's entirely possible that they're overreacting. I just wish SO users would realize this and let SO, Inc respond.
@Brandon_J Doesn't mean something shady is going on, just that they fundamentally disagree with something. Let's not exaggerate.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this also pushed out shog’s publishing of the close vote queue results
@GeorgeStocker D: that is disappointing
@GeorgeStocker I say "you guys" because you've sadly taken a lot of the flak lately for attempting to explain community decisions.
11:53
@Brandon_J You misspelled "corporate" ;P
They could publish that to throw us veterans a bone and distract us from all the bad stuff. I think publishing that and the reply around the same time would be smart
I’m seen as carrying SO’s water. I get that. I just want accurate conversations because the accurate stuff is hard enough without the innaccurate stuff being bandied about as gospel truth
As a side note I do hope that won't make everyone forget about that 3CV thing...
@AnsgarWiechers I know that it doesn't have to be shady. I meant that it appears shady with no context, and people seem to forget we have no context.
And the CC-BY-SA thing...
11:54
@JohnDvorak we were talking about it internally last night; it’s definitely not forgotten
I was originally expecting that to be reinstated no more than a day or two after the experiment' end
Good to hear it'll be gotten to it eventually
I guess the SE employees are busy trying to coax the new CEO out of his now barricaded office. "Make it stop! Make them all go away!"
@GeorgeStocker well, for what it's worth you seem to have been much more aligned with the direction SO is going in recent months than most of the other mods (or at least more vocal about it), at least that's been my impression. This is not judgement or criticism, just statement of fact (where fact is my impression, so nothing objective).
Specualtion: if Shog is too busy being an emergency moderator on a site, he can't work on the analysis of the 3CV experiment.
I feel SO bad (pun intended) for the new CEO. What a job he has.
11:59
He will highly likely side with his staff
Why we think anything that happen wasn't approved by him?
@Veljko89 because he wasn't CEO when it started
@Raedwald LUL
and "it" is as far back as the "welcome wagon" when people started getting POd
Do CEOs really worry about things as mundane as meta?
12:01
@AndrasDeak I get that. I think part of it is having opened my own business I am now understanding just what constraints they’re under. I’ve explained it elsewhere but effectively no business makes changes unless it believes it has to do so to thrive or survive. We are not the closest ones to the business so we don’t know the scope of why they are changing. We can be upset that our cheese is getting moved, but I’d rather have independent SO cheese than oracle or google cheese.
Only when it starts affecting the company revenue.
@GeorgeStocker Yeah, I think I remember you explaining that earlier
google cheese sounds...savory.
For all we know the company is manoeuvring with the objective to be acquired
@AndrasDeak At the rate things have been going, I'd be rather surprised if senior management wasn't aware of the current mess.
12:02
oracle cheese sounds a little too pungent.
Like it or not without revenue SO wouldn’t be where it is today. Maintaining that many developers on a singular product is very expensive, and I think you’ll agree the SO developers are top notch from a performance perspective
@user58 aware maybe. Losing sleep over? Having decisions affected? With the premise that they already considered shutting meta down? Well...
I'm not entirely clear on SE's internal structuring, but it's definitely high-ups in management who, yes, are "losing sleep over" this. Doesn't mean I trust the company, though.
So while I may have my own thoughts and feelings on their move, the best thing to do publicly is to not make waves if I trust them that they want to stay independent
(For me, YMMV)
Because the alternatives mean definite changes — that aren’t necessarily better than what’s happening
@Brandon_J I just get different pictures of cheese.
12:08
Mmmm. Cheese
What was the original, and evidently failed, plan for getting enough revenue to keep the lights on? Was it Careers/Jobs? Or just advertising?
selling hamster electricity
@Raedwald nothing has “failed” as far as I can see. Though “keeping the lights on” may be a non-profit’s goal, but a business wants to continue to grow and employ people and have a bigger impact. Also, when you start out by taking VC money you’re virtually guaranteeing either paying them back with interest or being sold or going public.
(From a revenue perspective; there were lots of non-revenue generating features that failed)
Ads, jobs, and enterprise. They’ve added “teams” now.
In project management, a death march is a project that the participants feel is destined to fail, or that requires a stretch of unsustainable overwork. The general feel of the project reflects that of an actual death march because project members are forced by their superiors to continue the project against the members' better judgment. Software development and software engineering are the fields in which practitioners first applied the term to these project management practices. Other fields have since recognized the same occurrence in their own spheres and have adopted the name. Death marches...
^ me right now -.-
12:25
keep walking
12:42
in rythm
If you walk without rhythm, you will attract the worm
Isn't it the other way round?
It is
13:14
On Sara's post, should I flag comments for removal if I think they are redundant? Or only if rude/abusive?
Personally I'd let those comments be
they are getting plenty of mod scrutiny on their own
focus on not adding any more
@Druckles If you walk without worms, you will attract the rhythm.
@AndrasDeak Hah, this one doesn't get old.
@M.A.R. If you walk with worms, you will lose your rhythm.
@Brandon_J It's not overreacting if you've interacted with the involved mods enough to trust their judgment.
@Druckles If you lose your worms, you will walk with your rhythm.
I haven't interacted enough, but I've read too many previous Monica Cellio or Gilles posts.
Such mods defined what meta was, and how to meta.
13:20
@MarkAmery: If you want to discuss it, we can get a room here.
@Cerbrus You don't want to do it right here?
Okay. Do you know how to make a room? I don't know Chat very well.
The new mods can be as hardworking (and often are, maybe even more so), but what the oldies have done for the sites is too hard to miss.
@MarkAmery I think I created two before I found out how to do it right
Step 1. Get into chat.stackexchange.com
Uh.
The true trick is creating a room on MSO, which can be done, but hasn't been done yet (unfortunately this one is on main and not on MSO)
Step 1.
@ErikA Hey, don't be a chemist. Meta rooms aren't all that discoverable at all.
If you can make one, never tried with a meta host.
You can just invite a user to a new room by clicking on their icon here
opa
opa
13:30
Wow you guys were right, I should have held my judgment. I don't understand what the heck SE was thinking.
Bangalore rules
@opa Welcome to yesterday :P
When I posted a link to that article yesterday, it reignited the unwanted discussion. I'm Sorry.
There, pre-emptively extinguished.
The Sara Chipps post just got another delete vote.
13:36
It'll be undeleted if it does get deleted.
Waste of everyone's time.
@Cerbrus yup, as it should
I'd almost cast one just to see who has cast the other ones. It's such a weird thing to delvote an official employee answer
Employeeness is partly irrelevant. It's as much an answer as all the other answers there.
@ErikA I wouldn't:
Please do not flag or vote to delete this post.
If it wasn't an official employee answer, it'd had my delvote for the accusation of Monica not acting in the right spirit.
13:39
Probably won't go down well, even if it is out of curiousity.
Looks like George may regret it, I mean sure we won't have made him regret it, but looks like he'll regret it
@ErikA that's a downvote reason, not a deletion reason
Yeah, the comment rate is increasing. I just flagged one as unkind.
These new comments are great... (y)
@Raedwald then it'll be locked again
13:41
@NickA it does indeed look that way.
They're already gone :-)
@AndrasDeak Imo it's a rude/abusive flag reason + a delete reason. It's not acceptable to throw around unsubstantiated accusations on meta.
@ErikA we disagree
@GeorgeStocker Thanks for trying, George.
I’m going to hope it’s just early morning on the east coast and it dies down as people drink their coffee.
Speaking of which. I could use some coffee.
13:45
Coffee always helps
2
There are diminishing returns though :p
We know there's a lot going on but if anyone would like to join our little AMA it starts in about 10 minutes - chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/99151/ama-with-uxpin -- its with a company thats launched a UX design app. Welcome to ask them .. well anything.
@Raedwald IMO, it's valid to flag a comment on meta that only repeats what another comment said. If they want to voice acquiescence, they can do so by upvoting the comment they agree with rather than repeating it.
user3956566
@gnat we would refer to death marches as all nighters. Working all through the day and the following night with no sleep or reasonable breaks. It's happened way too many times than I care to admit (even though I just admitted it)
@YvetteColomb sounds like two different things
user3956566
13:49
@Ryan I'm pinning this for a short while so people can see it
user3956566
@AndrasDeak I know, which is why I said that
user3956566
different expressions
Uh, you said "death marches == all nighters", didn't you?
A death march means the endeavour is expected to fail anyway
and I'm saying "it sounds to me death marches != all nighters", because ^-- that and v-- that
13:51
An all-nighter is just working all night
Although a death march may include/lead to all nighters
In a death march the project ends up dead, in an all-nighter the employee.
user3956566
@AndrasDeak yes
user3956566
all I'm saying is that what we would call a death march you would call an all nighter. People can argue about the rights or wrongs of it, but we were working remotely around Australia and all called it the same thing. sheesh I love it when people correct an actual experience and how we used a word colloquially. It's a global site and we didn't check wikipedia when we chatted
0
Q: Ask Question: Too much distraction?

NelsonGonI wanted to ask a question but noticed that there is too much distraction with respect to the "cartoons" and the "How to ask pane". Is there a way to hide these when asking a question? I also would like to suggest an alternative implementation that: Gets rid of the "cartoons" on top. Places th...

user3956566
13:54
fun fact: one of my colleagues had a heart attack after working what we called death marches
probably language barrier
how is that a "fun" fact
"fun" fact :(
user3956566
@AndrasDeak exactly! and my whole point
user3956566
fun fact was me being sardonic, as the language of working a death march and nearly dying himself
13:55
Yes
user3956566
I like this one and find it to be true
user3956566
Brooks' law is an observation about software project management according to which "adding human resources to a late software project makes it later". It was coined by Fred Brooks in his 1975 book The Mythical Man-Month. According to Brooks, there is an incremental person who, when added to a project, makes it take more, not less time. This is similar to the general law of diminishing returns in economics. == Explanations == According to Brooks himself, the law is an "outrageous oversimplification", but it captures the general rule. Brooks points to the main factors that explain why it works this...
user3956566
oh dear - what organisation could this apply to
user3956566
Escalation of commitment is a human behavior pattern in which an individual or group facing increasingly negative outcomes from a decision, action, or investment nevertheless continues the behavior instead of altering course. The actor maintains behaviors that are irrational, but align with previous decisions and actions.Economists and behavioral scientists use a related term, sunk-cost fallacy, to describe the justification of increased investment of money or effort in a decision, based on the cumulative prior investment ("sunk cost") despite new evidence suggesting that the future cost of...
9 women can't make a baby in 1 month
13:58
don't start with the ableism
@RickvanOsta No, but 1 woman can make 9 babies in 9 months
user3956566
exactly! but you know what human beings are the only species that would try
@RickvanOsta Depends what you have them make it out of
user3956566
@NickA hm has there been an actual event where a woman has given birth to 9 live babies from one pregnancy?
@RickvanOsta They can but only if you stagger it and pre-plan it
13:59
"But we've already sold it to a customer"
@YvetteColomb I think 8 was the highest....

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