« first day (1727 days earlier)   

1:24 AM
-2
Q: I wanted to give a bounty to an answer, but it was deleted by CommunityBot, and the author is temporarily suspended. What should I do?

Timur ShtatlandI wanted to give a bounty to an answer to my question. But the answer was unexpectedly deleted by CommunityBot. Its author is temporarily suspended. What should I do? The answer looks excellent and very insightful to me. I was considering it for a bounty (expires soon) or as an accepted answer (...

 
Oh boy
It happened
 
@Zoeisonstrike If you think it's wonderful, why don't you close the question I mentioned as not having MRE? You ended up doing your work incompletely, right? After all, if you had closed the question I mentioned, it would benefit me, since my question could not be closed because it was duplicated. But it's obvious that you wouldn't think about helping, would you? It wasn't a good work.
why didn't you closed the question*
By the way, you mentioned that the question already had an answer, but in fact it is an NAA.
In fact, I already flagged the question as not having MRE, and the answer as NAA, why don't you finish your work and close the question?
0
Q: Keras history callback loss does not match with console output of loss

Nanex1011I am Training a cnn in Keras at the moment. Now I want to log the history of the training process for later visualizations, which I do with: history_callback = model.fit(train_generator, steps_per_epoch=EPOCH_STEP_TRAIN, validation_data=test_generator, validation_steps=EPOCH_STE...

What a mess, Zoe.
 
1:41 AM
@VLAZ The only reason I have windows on my laptop is a long chain of thought that leads back to windows updates. I need windows for uni exams (because there's a windows-only digital system for in-person exams), and if I dualboot, I won't have a reason to keep the windows partition updated
The main downside about dualbooting, particularly for the lesser used OS, is the updates. Especially if the trouble child is windows :P
 
@Zoeisonstrike that is definitely not a username I expected to see in that context.
 
@KarlKnechtel yeahhh
 
@Marco It seems to me that you could address the issue by 1) including the details in the question rather than requiring a link to another question (which may be deleted eventually, etc.; this is why we don't allow questions that require a link to understand them), and 2) Testing the answer by upgrading the TF version and seeing if it works, and if not, noting in your question that it's not a duplicate for that reason.
 
Thanks for the suggestions, but the topic I mentioned now is different.
I even already deleted my question after it was closed.
 
1:56 AM
@Zoeisonstrike Sorry, what?
 
@gparyani no comment
 
@Marco Well, you could always undelete it if you wanted to address the issue.
 
@RyanM for sure.
The question is, let's assume that my new question has a MRE, can my question be closed again because it is considered again a duplicate of the other one? If so, I need the other question to be closed first.
 
Assuming that you test it and the new question explains that it is a different question because you have tested upgrading the TF version and the answer there does not apply, I would say it's not a duplicate.
 
@Zoeisonstrike To be clear, it involves moderator-private info?
 
2:02 AM
(note: I have not used TF and can't speak to whether the other question has enough there to be answerable)
 
And as I said, the other question besides not having MRE, has a single answer, which is NAA.
 
@gparyani We do not comment on suspensions
@Marco Note that an answer being wrong does not make it NAA; there is a built-in decline reason for this
such answers should be downvoted, not flagged
 
@RyanM But even if upgrading the TF makes the problem no longer exist, it is NAA, as the OP does not ask how to solve it, but rather asks why the problem occurs.
 
@gparyani What Ryan said. The consequences are public now, but can't talk about any of the context
 
@Marco "because there's a bug in TF 2.4.1 that is fixed in newer versions such as 2.8.0" is the implied explanation there. We take a very broad view of what constitutes an attempt at answering the question.
 
2:07 AM
@gparyani See also Why we don't keep public records of suspensions on that subject.
 
@RyanM But there was no proof in the answer.
 
We do not require proof. 99% of answers on Stack Overflow do not contain proof that they work
 
In any case, whether it is NAA or not matters less, the question does not have MRE, so it needs to be closed.
 
@Zoeisonstrike Okay, I wasn't talking about the suspension itself. I thought the "It happened" was in reference to the complaint written by the author of the global meta question who tried to award the bounty only to find that the answer was deleted. That the answer author was suspended is entirely tangential to awarding the bounty - bounties can't be awarded to deleted answers anyway.
 
@RyanM Ok, interesting.
 
2:09 AM
as in, the "it" was referring to the third-party complaint, not the suspension itself. I wanted to make sure my interpretation was correct.
 
The "it" isn't really about the suspension either, but the backing event I'm pretty sure there's going tl be an announcement about (unless the announcement got axed - which wouldn't really be bad in this case)
 
I see.
 
I haven't been keeping up with it. Been busy having fun :p
 
Also, another question: I'm wondering why the answer in question was deleted by Community instead of a specific user's name. The notice quoted in the global meta post isn't the "flagged as spam or offensive content" notice, and the only other case I know of where Community deletes answers is when the author's account is destroyed or deleted (if negatively-scored), which didn't happen in this case as it mentions that the author was suspended.
Are posts deleted using the plagiarism flag marked as deleted by Community rather than the deleting moderator?
 
And making ✨friends✨
@gparyani no, plagiarism is still labelled under the deleting mod
 
2:15 AM
@Zoeisonstrike Oh, I found the meta post talking about it. It also says there's a different deletion notice that specifically notes plagiarism.
That said, it'd be nice to know why it was deleted by Community in this case. (While the suspension can't be commented on, the deletion of the answer can be commented on as far as I know, and a 10k+ user can see the deletion reason in the timeline.)
 
@gparyani there is a different deletion notice, but it does still list the username of the deleting mod IIRC
But plagiarism deletion sucks
 
oh, that reminds me
 
You can only do it via the stock UI, and not if using the standard "delete" button
 
I'm planning in the future to write blog articles and/or posts on other sites based heavily on my previous SO answers. Do I need to do anything special to avoid getting retroactively detected as plagiarizing myself (on SO, I mean)?
 
@Zoeisonstrike IIRC it does in the history but not in the post notice
 
2:17 AM
It's honestly more convenient to just delete normally and escalate if the votes don't get invalidated. Not that I do a lot of plagiarism deletion anymore
@RyanM oh. I'm probably misremembering then
 
@KarlKnechtel Reminds me of a news story I read about how a school kid wrote an essay on a topic for a school assignment, then proceeded to edit the Wikipedia article on the topic with the same content, and got flagged for plagiarizing from Wikipedia. In the end, they were let off after the article history showed them adding the content, and the kid proved they owned the account.
 
@KarlKnechtel generally we'd notice that and just not delete, for two reasons: if the author's name matches, or if the SO post predates the other-site post. Though if we get it wrong, just flag it and note that you wrote both of them and/or that the SO post was first.
 
@KarlKnechtel not really, but having a clear link between you and the blog posts does help. So does having visible dates so the blog post
 
(plagiarism from SO posts is quite common, so checking the dates is important for avoiding incorrect deletions)
 
However, getting back to the topic of the deletion: again, as far as I know, the only way an answer can be deleted by Community with a normal deletion notice is if it's deleted as part of the author's account being removed (either because a mod chose the destroy option or because the answer was negatively-scored). This doesn't seem to be the case here, given that the answer belongs to an existing (suspended) account.
 
2:21 AM
Well, to repeat, I flagged the question as not being MRE, and the answer as NAA. If the flag is declined, that is, they consider that the question has MRE, I will contact the SE staff to inform moderation not doing what should be done.
 
The only case I can think of is if the answer was removed in this manner, then the post's attribution was changed to an existing account by staff.
 
@gparyani not sure how much I can say, but I'll assume I can say CMs were involved, and that the community deletion itself is a consequence of that involvement in this case. Wouldn't put too much into it, it's just how it was done this time
 
@Zoeisonstrike Okay, that does make sense. Is there any objection to publicly sharing the 10k+-user-viewable timeline note for the deletion?
 
@Marco I'm not sure why you keep bringing up threats to contact SE; doing so isn't a tool you can use to keep mods in line. That aside, NAA flags also go in a review queue, and close flags only go in a review queue, where non-mods also can cause a declined flag
@gparyani I'm not involved enough to answer that
 
@Zoeisonstrike are you saying that I can no longer say that I will contact SE staff whenever I want? That's right? Are you saying what I can or cannot do (censoring me)?
@Zoeisonstrike I know there is a process, I'm not in a hurry about the process, I'll wait for the results of my flags.
 
2:30 AM
@gparyani are you planning on editing an MSE FAQ page? xD
 
I decide whether or not to contact SE staff whenever I want and it is not you or any moderator who will prevent me from doing so.
 
@Marco I'm saying that saying the equivalent of "if this does/doesn't happen, I want a manager" doesn't help your case. I'm not saying you can't say it, but it doesn't influence mod decision-making, and only comes off as empty threats as a last-ditch effort to try to gain leverage
 
@Zoeisonstrike Zoe, I didn't ask for your opinion.
 
@Marco I'm going to be blunt. First off, what you are expecting overall is unreasonable, and completely not aligned with how the site works. Moderators are not responsible for closing questions (although they are empowered to). They have more important things to do, and could not possibly close as many questions by themselves as need to be closed.
 
@user Just wanting to fuel my hunger for curiosity.
 
2:32 AM
Basically, contacting SE is (per What recourse do I have if I believe a moderator has abused their privileges?) an appropriate method to report actual moderator misconduct. But declining those flags (certainly declining the NAA flag, which I've already explained the reasons for) would not be misconduct.
 
The majority of questions are closed by the community, which requires their votes. Flagging a question as needing to be closed doesn't make it moderator business; primarily, it puts the question in a queue for consideration by higher-rep users with the voting privilege.
 
also note that moderators generally don't handle close flags, as those are handled by the Close Votes review queue (in fact, the only way we can decline a close flag is by doing the review task)
 
I might add that continuing to bring about complaints to a team that has the technical capability to "resolve" them by just giving you a long network-wide suspension...isn't wise.
 
@Marco I'd encourage you to try to be gentler in chat. Telling people you don't want their opinion isn't generally helpful. You're free to contact SE if you feel a moderator abused their privileges.
 
@gparyani that sounds dramatic... I have a hard time imagining that happening. then again, I've ignored this user in chat and don't see what they're saying now :P
 
2:34 AM
Second, you are not the one who gets to decide whether a question has a qualifying MRE and whether an answer post qualifies as "an answer". The latter has very loose standards, and NAA flags are routinely denied (I would guess, the least "successful" flag type by far). Even tag experts don't get to unilaterally decide to close a question as needing an MRE.
 
@KarlKnechtel Ok, I may have expressed myself badly, after all you don't necessarily need a moderator to close a question. But what really matters in what I said is that if my flag does not result in the question being closed, I will contact the SE Staff as there was clearly misconduct on the part of the group of people or the person who prevented this from happening.
 
@KarlKnechtel unfortunately :|
 
@RyanM Well, if the right thing to do would be to accept the flag, especially in a clear case of not being an MRE, it is indeed misconduct.
 
@Marco Ok
 
@KarlKnechtel Ok, I already clarified this in my previous message to you.
 
2:35 AM
There are thousands of questions that should be closed, but aren't. You need three people with the privilege who understand the question.
 
I should add that you have been suspended on Meta Stack Exchange Chat for similar reasons before, which you brought up publicly there.
 
@RyanM Okay, that's a detail.
 
Third, escalating this sort of thing to staff is counterproductive at best. They are practically guaranteed to disagree with you that "there was clearly misconduct" (and for what it's worth, I also disagree). Again, moderators are well within their rights to disagree with you about whether a question has an MRE, and are not obligated to close questions for lacking them. Bringing this up with staff will only risk bringing yourself to their attention, frankly.
 
Most likely, your close flag will age away due to lack of votes on the review task.
Very likely, this will happen with it having received no votes in either direction.
 
Which segues into the fourth point: it seems painfully obvious to me that we are going through all of this because you are upset about prior action taken on one of your own questions, and feel that the rules are being applied inconsistently. Unfortunately for you, there isn't really a guarantee of fair treatment in the first place, since both moderator and curator resources are so strained; but aside from that, you still have to be convincing.
 
2:38 AM
@RyanM In fact, you can't even decline at all if one other reviewer agreed with the close flag and reviewed to close for the same reason, or the question got an external (outside of review) close vote for the same reason.
 
Your current tone is... approximately the opposite of convincing.
 
@cocomac What I meant was that I disagree with her opinion, that I don't want her opinion, on whether or not she likes my decision.
 
@KarlKnechtel meta can help if you make an effort to be reasonable (and amiable to some degree)
 
It is commonly taken as rude to say publicly that you don't want someone's opinion, even (perhaps especially) when it's true. It is far simpler and more effective to just... disregard opinions you aren't interested in.
 
@KarlKnechtel I disagree with your opinion, it is indeed misconduct, whether it is a moderator who declines the flag, or a group of users.
 
2:39 AM
But what I tell you now is not my opinion; it is my understanding of policy, formed through years of being in this channel and on m.SO.
 
@RyanM Ok, I'll wait for the results.
 
wait wth. shog can/could SEDE query chat?!? meta.stackexchange.com/q/289398/997587
I'm jelly. not that I have a reason to want to be able to.
 
@gparyani Well, in both of those cases, assuming the vote came after the flag, it'd be marked helpful. I think the former case, it might be only disputed if any reviewer agreed that it should be closed, but for a different reason?
 
@Marco my entire comment was subjective in the first place, and you opted to take that as attempted censorship
 
@KarlKnechtel I already argued about the problem I had with closing my question and I won't repeat it, I disagree again with your opinion.
 
2:41 AM
@user there's an internal version of SEDE with access to (I believe) the full database
 
@RyanM No, disputed close flags only come from Triage, if the question gets reviewed as Looks OK or Needs community edit. Close votes for other reasons will keep the flag pending.
 
...probably minus, like, the auth DB
 
@user I doubt it's SEDE, but shog was an employee, and probably had access to internal tools for data access
 
I mean that output reallllly looks like SEDE. Not that that's 100% a guarantee.
 
@user There is an internal version of SEDE
 
2:43 AM
Internal SEDE does make more sense
 
@KarlKnechtel I don't want to convince anyone.
 
Okay, I'm out.
 
@gparyani bye, "out"!
 
Anyway. Trains, anyone?
 
@Zoeisonstrike what about 'em?
 
2:44 AM
@KarlKnechtel Thank you for your suggestion, I will do that, including your comment, I will disregard it.
 
@user they sure look like a nice, moving distraction
 
@Zoeisonstrike Yes, that's my opinion, feel free to disagree.
 
@Zoeisonstrike Well, you brought me back.
 
@KarlKnechtel But I still disagree.
I hope you don't consider it rude to disagree with your statements.
 
I'd talk about trains but then it'd probably give away where I live
 
2:47 AM
@cocomac they already have
 
though where I live is probably guessable by other means :P
 
@cocomac Obviously no one would stop me, because that would be impossible.
 
The view from the train I take regularly
 
@Zoeisonstrike Sorry, deleted that. Got sidetracked for a minute
 
2:48 AM
@gparyani noice
 
@gparyani Great view!
 
@cocomac Too late, I read everything.
 
@Marco I mean, nothing is impossible if you're creative. One black hole hurled at the planet would do the trick, for example
 
@Marco okay, mod hat on for a moment: Your attitude is a bit problematic (and is generating flags). Between things like "But go ahead, close the question! Aren't you as eager to do this as always?" and your seemingly sarcastic acceptance of a suggestion to silently disregard things in which you explicitly state that you're disregarding that user's comment... it's getting heated, and no one you're talking to is behaving in a similarly heated manner. Please tone it back a notch or two.
 
ooh I'm watching hermitcraft and Scar is building a train
 
2:49 AM
stroopwafels
 
probably nobody knows what I'm talking about :P
 
@user did you see the permit office tangent?
 
@Zoeisonstrike Or perhaps a giant S :)
 
what tangent? the whole permit office thing is GREAT
 
2:49 AM
now uh. how do I tell the system that a spam/offensive flag was generally valid but that I don't want to immediately ban the user who posted it...
 
That pier is a train station
 
I keep a text file of timestamped links of funny hermitcraft moments and many of them are about the permit office
 
Haven't laughed that much about bureaucracy before :P
@user I meant all the permit office stuff. Last I watched, grian abandoned it for the time being. Haven't really watched after that
 
@RyanM In chat? Validate it and then immediately undo the ban would probably work I guess. Someone probably has a better way
 
In part because my recommendations went down the drain, so picked up big bang theory instead
 
2:51 AM
 
Burned through seasons 1-8 in a couple weeks
 
@RyanM At no point I was rude, I was just answering all the questions, anyway I've already finished my answers, since I've already answered all the messages.
 
"I hate the government TvT"
 
2:51 AM
@cocomac ya :D
 
@user I know exactly where you live
 
Well, running a train line right next to the ocean is an engineering challenge. Five times over in the last couple of years, the line has been closed due to coastal erosion or landslides, necessitating replacement buses.
 
You live on earth! Busted!
 
@Zoeisonstrike OvO
 
@Zoeisonstrike But the subject here is not about black holes, so it is impossible.
 
2:52 AM
@Zoeisonstrike starball is in space tho. will tell them to come correct you when they are back
 
Okay, I'm going now.
Just had to share those pictures
 
@Marco I'm saying that the way you're answering was getting heated and not headed in a productive direction. Just please keep it a bit less heated when responding to people you disagree with (or simply don't respond, as you've suggested you're done answering anyhow).
 
timestamp a little further along: youtu.be/-iT95_4ky1s?t=1750
 
(but yes if I thought you were being clearly over-the-top rude I'd have kicked you or something rather than saying this)
 
@Marco with the power of physics, there's no such thing as impossible* ** ***
 
2:54 AM
@RyanM Ok. But I prefer to say that I disagree explicitly.
 
@gparyani Bit of self promotion, but if you have a favorite sunset, you could post it over on our friendly photo contest on Travel Meta
 
@user In low-earth orbit?
 
@Zoeisonstrike which hermits do you usually watch?
 
You can simply disagree politely without saying, e.g., "I didn't ask for your opinion."
 
@Zoeisonstrike not sure :P
 
2:55 AM
@Zoeisonstrike I disagree.
 
@user mostly grian, some mumbo
 
@RyanM Ok
 
@RyanM went with "not sure"; hopefully that did the right thing
 
@RyanM not sure is skip
 
oh is the flag still there? I was hoping that as a mod it was a binding "meh"
 
2:56 AM
You want valid, and then to immediately unsuspend
Or invalid and immediately delete
Doesn't really matter, valid and invalid flags don't matter in chat
@RyanM not afaik
You should still be a
 
@Zoeisonstrike is that a response to the first part or the second part of my message?
 
... I hate typing on my phone
 
@Zoeisonstrike I think I started with mumbo. then I got addicted and now I watch a bunch of people ':) (at various times: grian, mumbo, scar, tango, impulse, pearl, gem, bdubz, etho, iskall, skizz, zedaph)
I think I will soon need professional help
 
rats. thanks.
 
2:59 AM
@RyanM instructions unclear. summoning rats
 
Related: this might be something we should add to A guide to moderating chat ("this" being "validating chat flags without suspending anyone")
 
*a horde of rats appears over the horizon. huge rats the size of a 1996 toyota corolla
 
realistically the correct answer is probably "mark it invalid because there's absolutely no feedback on chat flags anywhere"
@user I don't believe they exist
 
@Zoeisonstrike wait what the. respect
 
@RyanM pretty much, but valid and unsuspend automatically adds an annotation
 
3:01 AM
To the user profile?
 
hmmm fair point. Yeah, this would be a good addition to the MSE FAQ...
 
@RyanM darn. the rats retreat.
*insert pun / punchline here
 
@cocomac chat profile, but yes
 
@cocomac to the chat profile, specifically
drat, ninja'd
 
wait I think I botched the execution of this joke
 
3:02 AM
@RyanM Ah, I see. My follow up was going to be "what about chat.stackexchange.coom" :)
 
In unrelated news, it's 5:03 and I shouldn't still be awake :p 'night
 
@Zoeisonstrike bye
 
@cocomac Chat profiles are per-server, so it'd only be on the chat.SO profile
 
Good night!
 
only ChrisF (and diamond-wielding(?) staff) can always see all of a user's chat annotations :-p
 
3:05 AM
@RyanM Yes, but I thought (wrongly) that is was for the profile of the Q&A site (i.e., chat.meta.stackexchange.com -> meta.stackexchange.com for the annotation, hence why chat.stackexchange.com would be odd. But, that makes far more sense
 
oh I see
 
0
Q: How to handle comments posted as answers to off-topic questions?

HangarRashNumerous times I've run across an off-topic question that someone has posted comments on that attempt to answer the question. I understand the desire to help people but such comments should not be posted. It only encourages off-topic questions. I downvote the question since it is off-topic and I ...

 
@VLAZ Technically, it does...note that "high-level" in this context means "as opposed to assembly or machine code." C combines the ability to write (mostly) platform-independent code with the ability to write very low-level things when you need to. I don't think that makes it a great entry-level programming language, but...it does indeed combine those things.
 
3:44 AM
@cocomac I ended up rolling back your recent edit, for one subjective reason and two objective reasons. Subjective reason: I don't think it's a frequent case where a chat flag is valid but there's some special reason why the user doesn't deserve a 30-minute chat suspension. Objective reasons: 1. it's in the wrong answer - handling chat flags is not an RO-only ability, but a regular (10k+) user ability, so that section belongs in the other answer on regular users instead. 2. it's bad form to leave a TODO in an post - FAQs are meant to contain objective info on how the system works or established community consensuses, and it's better to have this discussed in a separate question and have that come to a consensus so the latter applies.
 
@gparyani Totally agreed on #2, and I'm happy to put it in the other answer per #1. It's when someone flags an older message (maybe an hour or so) for being over the line, but where the user has returned to reasonable conversation. The problematic behavior has stopped, yet the flag isn't wrong.
Do you think it'd be fine to edit into the other answer once the proper course of action for that case is determined? Or would it be preferrable to just put it into a seperate MSE question, if it wouldn't be appropriate or frequent enough. IMO, even if somewhat infrequent, it's reasonable to add as it may be used as a "cheat sheet" for chat moderation.
 
@cocomac There's a built-in statute of limitations on chat flags - 14 days. By setting it to that value, it means that the team has decided that flags on messages posted within the last 14 days are perfectly OK to action.
@cocomac I think it's best to, for now, keep it in a separate global meta post. If it does end up coming up frequently, then it's worth adding to the FAQ.
 
True, it's, of course, entirely fine to action them. But... that doesn't mean the consequence of actioning them is desirable. I can post it separately, though.
@gparyani Alright, I've posted it to MSE.
 
 
3 hours later…
6:30 AM
0
Q: My account got freezed-unfreezed from asking questions

Dean DebrioHi so I want to ask questions that isn't available on stackoverflow but my account got freezed again after it got unfreezed. I have fixed the question with -1 and tell the moderator to check if it's good enough yet I have not get the answer until today (or maybe it means it's still bad?). I canno...

 

« first day (1727 days earlier)