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12:14 AM
o/
 
12:56 AM
Samuel Liew has made a change to the feeds posted into this room
Samuel Liew has made a change to the feeds posted into this room
Samuel Liew has made a change to the feeds posted into this room
Samuel Liew has made a change to the feeds posted into this room
 
-6
Q: This answer is a stub. A partial solution for partial answers on Meta

Tiny GiantI'm fairly certain most of us have seen this text at some point on Wikipedia: This article is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Stub With the goal of a frictionless option for partial answers to encourage: those with partial ans...

 
 
5 hours later…
6:07 AM
morning
 
6:38 AM
Morning!
 
@Mithrandir Guess you could say it's metastatic
 
6:58 AM
Remind me why we keep you around again...?
 
I'm rooted here, for I am a plant
 
Welp.
 
@Featured I'm a bit worried by that post getting featured, even though I can't see how it meets any of the suggested featuring criteria on the answers here, except George Stockers heavily downvoted answer. It also pushes George Stockers point of moving comments to answers. Seems troubling to me, looks like a mod featuring stuff because he agrees with it even though the community doesn't.
4
 
 
2 hours later…
user3956566
9:02 AM
@weegee yeh we will feature that at some point. We are deliberately going slowly, as there's been so much change
 
user3956566
@ErikA it was flagged for feature. I think the mod is trying hard to navigate with renewed vigour on meta. A lot of things will settle down and come out in the wash.
 
user3956566
I'm still doing pretty much the same thing on meta I always have and I handle the most flags there. So that should be reassuring.
 
user3956566
Also noteworthy is we have an increase in comment flagging, so some of the comment removal is community initiated
 
9:18 AM
Flags are of course not a reason to feature in itself. There needs to be a good reason for it independent of the flag, and I just don't see it, but might be biased because I disagree with the idea. I certainly appreciate the mods presence on meta. I'm just a bit worried about mods pursuing their own agenda independent of community feedback, especially when considering things said here.
 
It's just high time. We have to wait for a little while until things get stable.
 
user3956566
@weegee high time?
 
means the times that are not good and the times where we are going through drastic changes
 
I know you're all trying to do what's best for meta, and that it's pretty hard to know what that is because everyone has their own strongly-held believes. I appreciate that. I'm just getting worried that people lose touch.
 
@weegee No it's already a fixed phrase and means something else
 
user3956566
9:25 AM
@ErikA each mod has autonomy - and we tend to not show open disagreement publicly - as we need to work as a team and having differences is what helps us to actually be a better team. We're still not working at optimal harmony, but we're getting there. I mean harmony as in agreement of action. We are respectful of each other 99.99% of the time
 
user3956566
@weegee yep, I thought that's what you meant thanks
 
yea lol I just searched it. Couldn't find my appropriate word. Sorry @M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ
 
You should really stare into the horizon and utter "These are dark times"
 
in heavy voice
 
@weegee I'm not High Time so you don't need to apologize to me.
He's pretty pissed though.
 
user3956566
9:27 AM
@ErikA I totally understand and that's the biggest reason I created this room - as comments are getting trimmed and people need to talk.
 
Say sorry to him from my side
 
user3956566
It's a sanctioned way of airing opinions and is a goto. I've made a commitment here and hopefully other mods will frequent
 
@YvetteColomb Yup, I suddenly no longer doubt if we need this room ;)
 
Makes you think, why would a meta chatroom fail, really?
I think people really need this.
 
user3956566
@ErikA bahahahaha that's right! lol too funny
 
9:28 AM
Maybe the stigma associated with the word "chat" and that a fair portion reads rants on meta from their workplace.
 
user3956566
I thought I'd make myself available - I don't want to hog the room, but it means people have access to a moderator if they need one. To talk just like this and also I post pertinent comments back into the mod chat room
 
You must be spending much time on the PC. Hope you are giving yourself breaks. @YvetteColomb
 
user3956566
it's a chance for people to air things and takes all pressure off any single person. as we're all having one big discussion - when comment threads break out under posts it can be intense for the posted
 
user3956566
@weegee I do. I spent much of the daylight today with my horses. I am dedicated to the site and our meta community - I enjoy being here most of the time.
 
Just different kinda horses
 
9:31 AM
so you are horsing around
(that pun was old before I was born I know)
 
user3956566
as I said. I don't want to hog the room. I'm trying to be supportive and show people I'm reading their posts in here, but at the same time, I don't want people to just see Yvette bla bla bla all through the feed
 
@YvetteColomb IKR, it just seems unbelievable to me that this room has actually failed before
 
@YvetteColomb What's the mod teams vision for this, anyways? Something like the tavern except for MSO?
 
I remember I used run and scream when I was around horses and learning horse riding. Now all animals I touch are cats and dogs.
 
user3956566
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ meta has changed - people are angst - there's tension and also grief and the associated feelings that go with that. We're all processing
 
9:32 AM
@Magisch sure hope so. An extra room I can share my great wisdom
 
Yvette needs a break. no one's gonna go saying that
 
user3956566
@Magisch this was my idea - I think they let me hop off happily with these types of things. :D they are used to me.
 
@YvetteColomb So maybe getting them to talk/chat is exactly the solution
 
user3956566
@weegee oh I'm in love with my horses - very deeply <3
 
I HAAATE PEANUT BUTTER!!! AAAAAA
Thanks, I needed that off my chest
 
user3956566
9:34 AM
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ the mods are pacing themselves. It's been a long haul and they do a huge amount on the site. A lot is hidden
 
Hiding one lot
 
I'm in love with my street animals. I refrain from petting and keeping them at my home because they have a hard life and If I start keeping them in my house then I'll have to pay attention to them. Instead, I can collectively feed them, play with them when they are outside
 
user3956566
I'm always pingable in here - but if there's a moderation concern that can be handled by a flag, please do not ping me - flag. If it's something metarish that you want a me to weigh in on - or just ensure I'm listening, please ping.
5
 
user3956566
should I pin that ? ^^
 
user3956566
I will have the tab open when I'm online and keep up with the conversations :)
 
9:38 AM
@YvetteColomb do you have that black colored hat which horse riders wear and long long boots?
 
@weegee And an accent. Don't forget the accent.
Oh no rene is here
Afternoon @rene
How're ya doing?
 
it is not afternoon yet
 
user3956566
@weegee short boots and the hard hat I have is white.
 
@rene It's 11:30?
 
11:43
 
9:43 AM
That's an afternoon if you look close enough.
 
Even with glasses on I don't see it
 
even rounding it off. It's not afternoon
 
It is always somewhere afternoon
Just not where I am at the moment
 
user3956566
@rene it's tempting to make you a RO here
 
usr
@YvetteColomb Thanks. But let's not forget that the root cause is not that the community is not being heard. The root cause is that the outcomes are bad. This is not about giving people the feeling of being heard. The only true fix is making the needed changes to the site. You say that resources are now available for that so fingers crossed.
 
user3956566
9:55 AM
@usr exactly, that is what I'm holding out for
 
@weegee We have to let the issues decanter for a little until things get stables
^ @Yvette
 
That is what I meant by my joke but it got left unnoticed.
 
10:20 AM
story of my life to go unnoticed ;)
 
will keep an eye on this room
 
beyond spectators we need a spectacle
 
Sorry, Bart's not here. You could try getting Cody to drop in, though.
 
10:37 AM
I always forget who's the sock puppet and who's real from those two ...
 
@YvetteColomb rene's RO everywhere
tavern, socvr....
 
11:07 AM
@Magisch his own room
 
@Magisch Who's rene? Do you mean rene?
 
@Mithrandir touché
 
user3956566
@rene cody is Bart's sock - it got out of hand - pun intended
 
11:24 AM
gods
 
 
3 hours later…
2:05 PM
o/
 
user3956566
2:23 PM
p/
 
2:48 PM
@YvetteColomb did you accidentally delete meta.stackoverflow.com/a/388147?
 
user3956566
> Mod note: This is not an answer to the question! Stop making this about one moderator. We're trying to set up a canonical post for the faq.
 
user3956566
I've had as much as I can take over this
 
ah, posted just too late
 
user3956566
it was a simple q and a for the faq as people wanted clarity over it, people asked for that clarity and I provided it.
 
user3956566
I have a continuous headache.
 
2:50 PM
From what I can tell Mark tried to have a discussion, was told by a mod (repeatedly and insistently) to write an answer instead, he wrote an answer so that people can vote on it. Now the upvoted answer is deleted because it's involved in a debate.
 
user3956566
@AndrasDeak it has nothing to do with the specific question
 
user3956566
there's one thing having a discussion and there's another thing deliberately misconstruing what someone says to make a point
 
user3956566
frankly it's disrespectful
 
I think disrespect cuts both ways
 
user3956566
I've gone to great lengths to do everything in my power for meta - and I still ask for things behind the scenes. I don't need mayhem under a post that was made with good intentions
 
2:55 PM
But I'm less invested in keeping things working than as much George is at breaking it, so I'm not going to argue here. I just didn't see your mod note when I saw the answer get deleted.
 
user3956566
@AndrasDeak you can argue here. I'd prefer it is people argue here than in comments.
 
I will say the condescending emoji in the comment reply is definitely uncalled for
 
user3956566
People are allowed to disagree
 
user3956566
@TylerH George's?
 
It's the same glaring image/reception problem that Tim suffers from in his comment replies when people are asking serious, earnest questions
@YvetteColomb Yes
It reeks of dismissal and not taking things seriously
 
user3956566
2:58 PM
@TylerH thanks.
 
user3956566
I think it's fine to have these feelings and to be able to express them. I don't think it's fine for posts to be derailed. That's why I drawing a line on that post.
 
of course it's not as bad as, say, commenting on your own post announcing some unwanted change with the words "come on guys, only a few more downvotes 'til -666 score! :-D" while leaving two dozen other direct comments to you unaddressed...
 
user3956566
I will ping Tim and George and they may come here to discuss
 
@YvetteColomb I know I can. I just won't. I've tried talking to George, and I couldn't even get him to acknowledge that his heavy-handed deletion of comments on Madara's post went directly against Madara's gesture of trying to discuss with the community, causing a lot of harm and mistrust. All I got was cynicism and a blatant evasion of any objective point I was trying to make. And from what I can tell that's what everyone else is seeing.
 
I'd rather the off-topic comments were removed, including my own, and the answer remained
 
user3956566
3:01 PM
@EthanField the answer was a question.
 
And there's not much point arguing with George beyond a few attempts because if you're too much insistent on getting some explanations you run the risk of suddenly becoming a toxic sea-lion ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
Note that I'm very much against any use of emojis in comments/replies. With different rendering between browsers and different cultural contexts, pretty much any emoji can be considered condescending/insulting, especially if things get heated. They're ambiguous as **** and rarely if ever add something.
 
user3956566
I can see these comments here raise some valid points.
 
user3956566
I am not blindly saying we are all perfect. I think it's a hard situation being handled in different ways and people feel stressed
 
user50049
@TylerH Can we unpack that for a minute?
 
user3956566
3:04 PM
I understand how people can perceive us as being dictatorial. It's vital to try and find some peace in this. It's running me into the ground for one
 
@YvetteColomb there's a huge distance between "we are all perfect" and "some of us are doing something wrong and they won't even pause to acknowledge it"
 
user50049
You have two dozen comments that could basically be classified as combative at best facing you almost all the time due to circumstances you simply can't control.
 
user50049
Sometimes, all you can do is look for the humor in it.
 
user50049
Because it's that bad for us.
 
user50049
You go to work. Now, put 12 people angry at you in front of everything you need to do that day. And nothing you can say is going to make them less angry.
 
user50049
3:06 PM
But 12? Psh. Try 200+.
 
user3956566
@AndrasDeak ofc. I think in some places things could have been handled much better on meta. that's the truth.
 
@TimPost Sure, I totally understand and have that reaction myself in some situations in life. I just expect better from you because it's your job to communicate and manage the community professionally. If you had 12, 200, or even 1 person in your face, I'd also understand. But they're not in your face, they're comments on a page from people you don't have to sit in front of and answer right away. But you do need to answer them.
To be clear, I wouldn't mind the joke comments nearly as much if you were also responding to all the questions/concerns people were addressing to you directly.
 
user3956566
Andras I see the back end of these people- so I'm more sympathetic. I see what they're trying to do and the pressures they feel. I also see the community point of view. :/
 
okay
 
user50049
And now, go explain to your supervisor that you got nothing on your list of things to do done, because you were busy writing hundreds of comments that maybe 30 people are ever going to read, for fourty hours. Nevermind the emotional drain of having to engage that way for a whole week at a time, your productivity is also poor.
 
3:08 PM
But when you don't respond to them and then post a joke, you're telling everyone "I logged on and dismissed all the comment notifications I had and instead decided to come post a joke, advancing the discussion in no way at all and giving the appearance that I don't really care about feedback"
 
@AndrasDeak I’m always happy to engage and answer any questions you have in the right place. Comments are not and have empirically not been that place for reasons I fleshed out in this answer: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/388098/16587
 
user50049
If we want more resources put into things we have to get better about how we utilize what we have now.
 
@GeorgeStocker jolly good
 
(Subtlety noting that putting the viewpoint in an answer allows me to link to it and easily find it)
 
@TimPost So, it's not your job to communicate with the community? That's fine, though I think you should probably state that somewhere in your posts when you make one. I and I'm sure everyone else on Meta was not aware of that. And, critically, if you're not going to be responding to all these comments (which you haven't been doing), you don't get to use the argument of 'go to your boss and say you didn't get anything done because comment response'.
2
 
user50049
3:10 PM
@TylerH When I've already answered it in the question, and other comments, and other comments on other comments and in other places, well, one gets tired of it.
 
user50049
@TylerH It is my job to communicate with the community. It's not my job to slide down a cheese grater into a glass of scotch, which is what communicating has felt like for quite some time.
 
I don’t want to be a rabble rouser about this, but if anything you’re being told to take your complaints, issues, and questions about viewpoints to the most public place you can instead of trying to debate them where no one can easily find them.
 
@TimPost So shouldn't you be taking George's advice and posting a response as a question/answer instead of comments that cannot be found easily? That would allow you to link anyone who asks back to a canonical, non-transient response.
 
@TimPost I think the problem is you actually aren't reading the comment responses, because I have seen a lot of new questions being asked there that you didn't respond to, not just the same question being asked by different people (which I see a lot of, too)
 
user50049
@EthanField No. What we need to do is lessen the 1:many dynamic. I can't have swarms of bees coming at me all the time.
 
3:12 PM
@EthanField incidentally if I looked I could probably find the design reasons why comments are the way they are. It’s on purpose. The software was not intended to be used the way it’s being used and the entire community is hurting because of it
 
@TimPost How would you propose that could be done?
 
user50049
So, again, I come in to talk, point out how things are going wrong from my perspective, and being told how it's probably all my fault.
 
user50049
This is the problem we've gotta solve.
 
@TimPost On a related note, I mentioned in the discussion under Sara's recent Meta answer the suggestion of creating a generic Stack Overflow/Exchange employee account. Has that reached you or been something y'all have considered yet?
 
@GeorgeStocker I'm not arguing that comments should matter and shouldn't be transient, I'm frustrated that it seems impossible to converse with the moderators at the moment, present time and company excluded.
 
3:13 PM
@GeorgeStocker you might have forgotten but I tried talking in chat, your new favourite forum for discussion. I tried explaining to you that moderating the comments on Madara's post directly clashes with Madara's post. You didn't seem to acknowledge any of what I said, you just kept evading as you've always been this week. I don't find this constructive at all.
3
 
@TimPost I'm not blaming you at all, nor did I ask for you to point out how things are going wrong
 
user3956566
@EthanField ah! that's why I created this room!! cunning plan is working
 
user50049
@TylerH It wouldn't work for a bunch of reasons. The idea is in the right place, though. The weird time zones we work in as well as our kinda loose coordination would be painfully obvious in a shared account setting (much less than the worst right now, which is sometimes just a slight delay, or one person responding without being aware of what another recently posted)
 
@YvetteColomb I've been putting off creating a question to discuss it because I feel like it would devolve into a game of he said, she said. And that's not helpful, so this is a good solution I think
 
user50049
@EthanField I don't need you to ask me :) I'm saying "Here's my explanation for the things you called out" and what I got back was "Oh, that's also all your fault" That's how it felt.
 
3:15 PM
Tim you must be immune to being shouted at by now :p
 
@AndrasDeak I responded right below it. I don’t always use the reply feature because it’s glitchy on mobile.
 
user50049
We're paid to help you. We're not paid to go numb in order to do it. Let's make that expectation perfectly clear.
 
@GeorgeStocker yes, of course
 
@TimPost I'm failing to see where I said it was your fault? Or where I call you or anyone else out on anything?
 
Thats not how I meant that
 
3:16 PM
@TimPost probably because we have no-one else so visible and approachable to blame for our collective failure ....
 
user3956566
@EthanField totally agree! There's too many points to be made and people need to get things off their chest. A chatroom is not person specific. Posts are person specific in so far as there is a poster. If that makes sense.
 
user50049
@EthanField I address the crowd as a whole. The crowd generally addresses me individually. That's the weird thing about a 1:many dynamic. So when I say "you" it generally means "the group"
 
@Magisch I didn’t want to get into it in the comments (that I can’t find now anyway), but the “creators” referred to those that thought the archive would be a way to check moderator actions. If anything it’s made it far easier for us to see problem spots than we otherwise would have, thereby creating more moderator action.
 
And this is why I don't want to argue anymore, @GeorgeStocker. In some circles this would be called gaslighting. You responded to my concerns but didn't give any kind of substantial answer. You're weasling out of arguments when you would have to maybe admit that you're doing something wrong.
 
user50049
@Magisch Honey Badger ++
 
3:18 PM
on top of that your a mc server admin
 
@TimPost I don't buy the time zone thing at all. Maybe for one person, but how many CMs are in NY? I don't think anyone is going to do sleuthing to say "who posted this? It was at 3AM Eastern, so it must be someone in Europe, that leaves X Y Z employees". Even fewer would do so for malicious reasons (such as harassment). At the very least it would cut down on the perception of hundreds of people @ing you and making you feel like you can't get anything done due spending that time replying.
 
those get shouted at almost as much as CMs :D
 
user50049
> I don't buy the time zone thing at all.
 
Companies all over the world manage a shared customer-facing account successfully
 
user50049
^^^ That's extremely combative
 
3:18 PM
I don't believe in time zones at all.
 
@TimPost Yes, it's combating your argument. And I then provided my counter argument
 
they are just a lie sold by Big Clock
 
Do you have an issue with that form of discussion? I'm asking sincerely.
 
@GeorgeStocker its a bit of both. The original idea was some kind of notion that having this would calm people down and allow more rational arguments to surface instead
 
@AndrasDeak I'm calling Boltclock!
 
user3956566
3:19 PM
@AndrasDeak oh I think they are downright discriminatory :p
 
it being useful is part of why I decided to go ahead and do it eventually, and is a very happy effect of the whole
 
user50049
@TylerH That's my explanation. If you don't buy it, well, sorry :)
 
we can all use quicker deletion of rudeness and quicker de-escalation of issues as they emerge
 
user3956566
@Magisch totally agree
 
@Magisch same. Since there is not a culture of flagging comments on meta it’s far easier to see when new users are being picked on.
 
user50049
3:21 PM
I work here. I'm in senior management. I know the challenges our team faces. I'm happy to share them. I'm not obligated to prove them, or debate them, because that's simply not a great use of my time.
 
I think the issue here is that it feels like you are the company, so the impulse is
if I can just convince tim I'm right, they'll do what I want
 
user3956566
people feel censored. I do understand that. That's why we have chat - it's designed for loads of comments and allows us to maintain an easier to follow meta that people are not afraid to post on
 
@TimPost OK, you're not willing to consider my counter argument. Then what is the point of saying my response is combative?
 
user3956566
@Magisch exactly
 
user50049
> I don't buy that
 
user50049
3:22 PM
^^^^ I interpret that as "I don't believe you"
 
user50049
or "You're being disingenuous"
 
OK, well those are two very different things
While the first one would be OK (though more appropriately "I don't believe your claim"), the second one is completely in a different camp of bad faith vs good fath
 
@AndrasDeak you’re being heard. In the case of “doing what our title says on the tin” it’s not going to change whether or not we elect to moderate or not. It’s gojng to be the same as it always was: moderators moderate. We are just picking up that we really didn’t do a great job of moderating meta and it had some really disastrous outcomes.
 
The problem I have with the whole push to move everything to answers is that if someone posts an answer responding to another answer, I have very little visibility of that, as it could be buried on a different page of answers. Whereas for comments, they are all right there under the answer I am reading.
2
 
Second, you keep quoting just the first phrase of my response. Did you read the entire response? It was "I don't agree <because *reasons given*>"
 
user50049
3:24 PM
Tyler, a word of advice: When someone openly tells you how something you said made them feel, just .. see if maybe there could be something useful to learn and move on? And maybe adjust how you relate? That's a faultless / guiltless process that people use every day.
 
@TylerH I'm honestly not sure if having a shared account would have any impact on either the community being less hostile in the face of change, or in moderators feeling less personally insulted.
 
@EthanField employees, not moderators.
 
user3956566
@Dragonrage I'm not sure we should have answers responding to another answer
 
user3956566
Comments are fine - it's the intensity
 
You're dismissing my counter argument out of hand because you think I'm arguing in bad faith. I don't really know how to change that perception of yours because I'm being sincere. And it's frustrating to me because I've seen you respond that way to many other comments that I perceived to also be made in good faith.
2
 
user50049
3:26 PM
@TylerH I had to read it a few times because I felt very dismissed by the first three words you said, which I expressed to you, but you seem to continue to think I shouldn't be entitled to that reaction so ... <shrug>
 
the idea is that even if the community is less hostile it would be targeted against an umbrella user and not actual people
 
user3956566
@TylerH you know that was a rut I was in and I'm realising people are coming to me with questions, because they genuinely want to know.
 
user3956566
@AndrasDeak umbrella user?
 
@TimPost OK, you keep changing the subject. First we were talking about a suggestion to the site's design. Then we were talking about the reasons why that would or wouldn't work. Now you're arguing that I'm not listening to you when you're sharing your feelings?
 
user50049
So if you want me to read it, amidst a slew of other things I have to read, and you know how you phrased it felt combative because I told you, maybe .. try saying it another way instead of ramming it down my throat?
 
user50049
3:28 PM
I've got stuff I have to get done.
 
@YvetteColomb some generic mask of a user that employees can hide behind
 
@AndrasDeak Apologies, just assumed that moderators would have one unanimous account too, but that seems silly now I think about it.
 
@TimPost I don't know of a better way to say I disagree with the argument you gave for why something wouldn't work than to literally say that and then provide reasons why I don't think your argument is sound.
 
user3956566
@AndrasDeak ah ok
 
Honestly, and I'm sorry that it has gotten to this point, but it really seems to me that your threshold for someone "ramming something down your throat" is simply what others call "disagreeing".
2
 
user3956566
3:29 PM
hm I'm not sure that helped at all
 
Perhaps we need room rules on phrasing. This conversation derailed rapidly and was unpleasant for all involved parties, as I see it
 
@TylerH Looking at the conversation that's just gone on, I'm gonna have to say that you aren't being particularly considerate of Tim. You asked, he answered and then you went on to tell him why his answer was wrong.
 
user3956566
@ErikA yes. :/
 
@TylerH look, it pains me to say this, but you were abrasive
tone matters, and if your job involves representing a company so that you basically get disagreed at all day, even what you wouldnt call rude will feel rude
tim is a person like you are. Imagine the one time your nerves were stretched thin and every slight felt ever so much more personal? that might be him right now
each of us has felt it at some point, none of us are immune
 
user3956566
@Magisch I feel for him. Honestly. And Shog
 
3:32 PM
I can't imagine having his job right now. I'd probably have quit long ago
 
user3956566
they've both put their pound of flesh into the site and there wasn't the company support backing all these people for a long time
 
im not innocent in this, but he's telling you this is what happens
 
One major misunderstanding I see is the thought that arguing with a person will change their mind. It won’t, and it never has. There’s a really great chapter on this in “How to win friends and influence people.” The best you can do is present your viewpoint and ask curious questions.
 
tim is not a slimy corporate sleazebag. He's trying but he's strained from all thats going on
 
user3956566
so when they didn't come to meta people were angry- they had nothing to come to meta about
 
3:33 PM
@YvetteColomb it seems to me that at least some of the mod team has been heavily pushing for people to post responses to other answers as answers so that they are permanent and more visible
 
@GeorgeStocker That depends. People have convinced me I'm wrong in an argument many times. If it gets heated, though, that chance is gone.
 
@Dragonrage exactly this. Make it more public so we can have the debates in a publicly useful and findable way.
 
user3956566
@Dragonrage hm maybe that part of the mod team will need to clarify that is not exactly what they mean - they're meaning if you have an alternate answer or clarifying point that has come from a answer posted to a question and that point is relevant to the question - then post an answer
 
10 mins ago, by Dragonrage
The problem I have with the whole push to move everything to answers is that if someone posts an answer responding to another answer, I have very little visibility of that, as it could be buried on a different page of answers. Whereas for comments, they are all right there under the answer I am reading.
 
This here isn't because its his job, it's because he still cares. Have we already forgotten that the CM team which we're currently serially accusing of bad faith and twisting every word from were the ones who stood up for us when meta was on the chopping block?
 
user3956566
3:35 PM
@ErikA I think being open is vital to that process. I've been wrong so many times in life and on meta, it makes it easier when you can say " i was wrong" or I've changed my mind.
 
@Dragonrage now we get into the nuance of the answer. The answer can be “contrary to viewpoint presented in <linked answer> my answer Is that we should do X,Y, and Z because of A,B, and C, and the other answers do not take that into account.
The difference is you’re not trying to debate someone else's Viewpoint, you’re presenting your own and letting them stand side by side for judgement and comparison
 
@Magisch I don't think Tim is slimy or a corporate sleazebag or anything of that nature. He seems like a great guy. I'm just frustrated that he shuts down and/or argues bad faith the first time someone disagrees with reasoning he gives. Like, if he had just said "That's my explanation. If you don't buy it, sorry" and left it at that, I would've just remained unconvinced but much less frustrated. But when I disagreed, he led with "you're being combative", which is very telling.
 
It's worth remembering that comments are not inherently bad. We don't want to eliminate all comments from the site and move everything to answers.
 
@TylerH But you were
 
Worse, when asked what he meant, he said he thought I was claiming he was lying, which is huge
 
3:38 PM
@GeorgeStocker I'm all for people posting comments as answers in instances where having it as an answer would make sense. The thing that seems wrong is actively disregarding or deleting something just because it's a comment. Comments can have value, and to delete them simply because they should be an answer seems wrong.
 
user3956566
@Magisch you're level headed. We need some room owners here. Are you interested in holding down the fort until we get a more democratic system in place?
 
It's just that comments have a tendency of getting really off-topic and out of hand, very quick. Especially in controversial or high traffic posts.
 
I thought you were being combative and my nerves aren't raw from being on the wrong end of an excrement funnel for the last year and a half
 
@Magisch I guess we need to define combative then. I find combative to be when you argue for arguments sake rather than over the merits of the discussion.
 
@Magisch incidentally can you find public sources for the chopping block comment? I see it being alluded to, but I can’t seem to place the public SE person that said this or where.
 
3:39 PM
I don't find back-and-forth arguments about the merits of a proposal to be combative. I find that to be a debate, or discussion in common terms
 
I’d love to reference and read it; but I’m not sure if it was said or a game of telephone from interpreting what someone said
 
wording matters a lot. If people have been crapping on you for months accusing you of lying to customers faces and someone you respect and want to talk to goes "I dont buy that" which really means "I think you're bullshitting me right now" then that hurts, doesn't it?
Might be a language issue
 
@TylerH but it looks like on your terms, not common terms both feel comfortable with.
I'm only lurking here ....
 
@rene Sneaky rene
 
What really frustrated me was that when asked what he meant by combative, he conflated two very different things, one of which was him accusing me of calling him a liar...
 
3:41 PM
@EthanField I haven’t yet said anyone say they’re deleting them because they should be answers, nor is that anyone’s intent. The intent is to say, if you post a comment it may be deleted. If there’s something you want to say that is publicly useful it should be a meta post, whether that’s a question or answer, as they stick around and are easily referenced
 
in Discussion on answer by Sara Chipps: We’re removing “Hot Meta Posts” from Stack Overflow's sidebar for now; moderators now fully control [featured], Jul 24 at 21:02, by Sara Chipps
Good question, the psychological safety for employees is the reason for moving our communications to the blog from Meta. The hope is the "Featured on Meta" links will only be things that are super important and need more eyes. TBH the CMs fought pretty hard so we could keep that and make sure the Mods have the outlet they need. They felt strongly that if we removed it we would be taking away the tools that mods need to be successful.
TBH the CMs fought pretty hard so we could keep that and make sure the Mods have the outlet they need. They felt strongly that if we removed it we would be taking away the tools that mods need to be successful. that means all visibility of meta to main was on the chopping block
were it not for the cm team fighting for us
@YvetteColomb if you want
 
@GeorgeStocker the only issue i see in that is the possibility of replies in edits. if i post an answer saying why another answer is wrong, then they edit their answer to address my point, and I edit my answer to address their point ad infinitum.
 
So meta wasn’t on the chopping block, but featured on meta was?
 
I appreciate that, but it seems like a number of the comments you talked about deleting in this post:
https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/388070/4528269
Were constructive and added something valuable, yet they were deleted and I can't understand why, even after reading your answer.
 
3:43 PM
well, if not featured and not HMP, how discoverable is meta?
It aint
But technically, yea
 
it would get very hard to track what is going on, and you would have to have both answers open and bounce back and forth between them to understand what is being dicussed
 
@Dragonrage That cuts both ways though. It's the old forum first post problem - folks are rewarded for writing quickly, even if that costs their response any sense of nuance or even the most basic usefulness. It encourages polemics, populist rhetoric, and other such knee-jerk responses over any efforts to find common ground.
 
@TylerH so, how easy would it be for you to say: Heh I think this went all out of control and it doesn't look like I get this fixed. Can we somehow reset the discussion, retrace some of our steps and try again?
 
In my experience, if someone thinks you're combative, the tone has changed and the discussion is done. People are only going to get hurt going further. The only thing that sometimes has worked for me is saying sorry you feel that way, can we perhaps come back to it later.
 
@rene I'd be happy to work to reset the discussion with Tim at any point then or now. Only problem is he has left again...
 
3:46 PM
Probably because your first response to him telling you about it was invalidating his perspective
 
yes, I think he as other chatrooms around SE where he needs to be yelled at.
 
@TylerH He's an employee with other things to do, he can't be around all the time. Besides, we're now devolving this chatroom into a conversation about whether or not one conversation was combative or not.
 
I'm sure you didn't mean to, but thats what happened
 
@EthanField I answered why they were deleted in my answer. It contains my reasoning and is far more complete than anything I could write here.
 
user3956566
@ErikA very wise
 
3:47 PM
@Magisch I don't think that's accurate or helpful language
 
surely you've been at the point before where someone went "Well first of all how you're reacting to this is actually wrong" and then you usually go "screw this, I'm done" and leave
 
@Magisch the reset was meant to go both ways. .... for all parties, and lurkers
 
I wasn't invalidating (or trying to invalidate) his perspective, only the reason he gave
 
@Magisch this.
 
Which is why I specifically mentioned "I don't buy <the argument you gave> for reasons"
 
3:47 PM
Didn't mean that in an accusatory way
if everyone's nerves are raw and the situation is tense, having reasoned debate is hard
 
You're not going to fix this ...
 
deletion will fix it
 
Maybe itme for topic change in chat
 
describe the cutest spider you've ever seen in 200 words or less
 
@KevinB deletion of the user ;)
 
3:49 PM
@GeorgeStocker I appreciate that, and I've read the answer. Just voicing that I don't agree with the removal of some of those comments. I can't tell you it was wrong or berate you for your choices. But I can at least let you know that I don't agree they all had to go.
 
@Shog9 Arachnophobia ensues
 
@EthanField I respect that; and the votes agree with you. But as always I’m happy to respond in a publicly useful way.
 
@Shog9 Im not sure Im completely understanding your point here, could you clarify? are you saying comments reward those who post first, or who post quick retorts instead of posting valid feedback?
 
@Shog9 Undertale. Muffet.
2 < 200. QED
 
@Shog9 I don't suppose you know how to search on Rotten Tomatoes by year + score below 50%? Yes, I'm trying to answer a recent xkcd...
 
3:51 PM
@GeorgeStocker I'm happy to leave it. To post a question saying something to the effect of "Why did a moderator delete these comments?" is only going to draw aggravation to both of us. No point wasting time in both of our lives for the sake of clarification.
 
jumping spiders. smol and cute and they wear small waterdroplets as hats
 
user3956566
@EthanField oh I am soooo tired of those questions. It's like being stuck on a merry go round
 
@EthanField I can tell you the answer anyway. Comments are not a good place for discussions and you can't vote etc., answers are here to stay, use them. Done.
 
@EthanField no doubt and I hope my answer was complete enough to already address that. It’s critically important to be transparent in reasoning. To go back to @andrasdeak ‘s problem with what I said; I felt like it’d be a disservice to not be transparent.
 
my issue was never with transparency
 
3:54 PM
@YvetteColomb I can only imagine, I don't envy you
 
@Dragonrage The BIG value of answers on SO is that "fastest gun in the west" only works if you're a reasonably accurate shot (and/or edit, a lot). You can post the first answer and still end up on the bottom of the page; you can take your time and still get visibility. But comments never re-order.
 
@AndrasDeak No, they're not a good place for discussion. I still don't agree with deleting them when discussion takes place there, as long as the discussion is meaningful and constructive. Regardless, I can't change anything, so shrug
 
user3956566
@EthanField I've had a headache for 1.5 days. :/
 
@EthanField to that argument I can only say that comments are not a good place for discussions and you can't vote etc., answers are here to stay, use them.
@YvetteColomb is your flu any better?
 
@YvetteColomb Well, there are worse places to be stuck on I guess. Try being stuck in an elevator with other people for hours. Because yes, they do fart.
 
user3956566
3:56 PM
@AndrasDeak oh thank you for asking! It is a lot better, but I'm having trouble breathing still. It has caused a lot of coughing and wheezing, but defintiely improved. I went to my horses today. but was really exhausted/breathless just walking around
 
@AndrasDeak Once again, I understand and I agree with you. But to remove a discussion simply because it's in the comments and not in an answer isn't something I personally agree with, not that my opinion actually matters in deciding how things are dealt with. The moderators are elected individuals and should be trusted more so than me.
 
@AndrasDeak what are the flu classifications? Good, better, best?
 
user3956566
@Gimby ewwwwwwwww lol
 
@EthanField I can do this all day ;D
 
@AndrasDeak "sigh I know" - Captain America, Endgame - 2019
 
3:58 PM
@YvetteColomb wa, sorry to hear that. Something tells me horses aren't exactly the best cure for difficulty breathing
 
user3956566
@AndrasDeak they help - fresh air - country side. I'm not allergic, so yeh.. and they make me so happy
 
I see :)
 

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