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user3956566
4:00 PM
:) that was so nice of you to remember. I appreciate it
 
@EthanField side note: some were elected long ago and some are more trustworthy than others
 
@Shog9 true, but if you are like me, you read all of the comments regardless of their score/post date. so then fastest gun in the west for comments doesnt make so much a difference
 
user3956566
we will need more ROs in here and a set of rulez I imagine - what is meta without rulez. But at least now we have one civilian on the RO list ;) I hope people don't mind me arbitrarily selecting someone. It was to get the ball rolling. I'm hoping you lot (motley crew) take over the room and all teh thingz
 
meh
 
@AndrasDeak As is the case with all elected officials.
 
user3956566
4:03 PM
@KevinB are you mehing my excitement over this room? O.O
 
Imo great move. I'd trust all tavern ROs to moderate this room well since this one should be similar
 
it's just another echo chamber that will be summarily ignored
 
@KevinB That's a pretty stubborn attitude to take on something we haven't even tried yet
 
Let's see first dismiss later. For now both Tim and Shog have shown up. We're probably not going to effect change, but if we can discuss and get explanations for what's going on I'm happy
 
user3956566
@EthanField I'd say more depressed actually
 
user3956566
4:07 PM
@ErikA and at least one mod is committed to be here daily, plus several others have shown up and participated.
 
@YvetteColomb barring elections for RO I would guess it should be Tavern ROs, like Erik said.
 
i do like it existing though
 
(BTW thank you for making this room. I think it's been needed for years, but very sorely needed now)
 
user3956566
@TylerH different site. The Tavern ROs are not all active on MSO
 
fair point
 
4:07 PM
@ErikA meh
 
I thought there was some significant crossover, though
 
nah
only like 1-2 people
 
user3956566
@TylerH yw :) I think with things changing - we need an outlet as a community. fwiw I work closely with the community team and will always poke things under their nose @KevinB
 
BTW @GeorgeStocker re: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/387905/… I think voting on Meta is wayyy too hampered. Do you have a good reason for why I should not be able to upvote (or downvote) an unlimited # of Meta posts or comments in a given 24 hour period?
Obviously the same other rules would apply (e.g. vote lock-in, no voting on your own stuff)
 
Point 1 is that we need ROs that show up, if we filter on tavern RO + Shown up here, we get rene, mithrandir and magisch
 
4:10 PM
but limits? There's no point
 
@TylerH you should ask a question with that suggestion. You're welcome.
 
@TylerH at some point in the participation arc meta becomes the goal, instead of a means. Jeff said this in his “meta is murder” blogpost and it’s too accurate.
Once meta has become the goal it’s time to step back.
 
user3956566
@ErikA I asked rene
 
you see, people with opinions and a tendency to share those opinions are bad
 
eh, i've only hit the 40 cap maybe once or twice on meta, and maybe a few dozen times on main. Just wait a day, you'll be out of things to vote on after a day or two active anyway
 
user3956566
4:12 PM
rene would you accept being made RO of this chatroom while we sort these issues out? — Yvette Colomb ♦ 2 hours ago
 
user3956566
@YvetteColomb No, I rather stay out of this Meta sizzle. Better recruit outside of the usual suspects to prevent being accused of favoritism. — rene 2 hours ago
 
The goal has always been improving the site, never meta, though. For me, that is, but I still believe that's true for nearly everyone
 
@YvetteColomb rene always had too much sense
 
user3956566
@KevinB totally agree
 
user3956566
@AndrasDeak it's so annoying! :D
 
user3956566
4:14 PM
I mean there's a bunch of people in here who'd make perfectly good ROs
 
Incidentally, for all the people that believe if Jeff ran SO right now things would be better tend to forget that he did call meta “murder”
And if the last week and a half is any indication I agree with him.
 
Well, one of the things I appreciate Jeff's posts for is saying things upfront, clearly and directly. Something I kind-of miss nowadays. But I haven't been around that long.
2
 
user3956566
@ErikA you're an MD. Do you specialise?
 
@YvetteColomb Currently doing a PhD on pediatric bone marrow transplants, specifically the influence of donor characteristics on outcome. So no, I can't cure your flue ;). Mostly hanging around here while my computer is running statistical analyses, so I tend to tap out now and then
 
user3956566
4:19 PM
@ErikA oh wow. Interesting research. This would help cancer patients?
 
user3956566
auto immune disease?
 
@YvetteColomb Yup, but mostly large scale. And a large variety of diseases, mostly leukemia but also inborn immune deficiencies, sickle cell disease/thallaseemia, and indeed auto immune diseases too. I'm trying to be the first to take a birds-eye view and not focus on specific diseases because specific diseases are often too rare to answer the questions I'm asking, but that makes the analysis a lot more complicated.
For individual patients, I'm not likely to turn something up, but if we can improve donor selection on the large scale that might save a few lives (I hope).
 
@ErikA if you could cure MS, thatd be great :)
 
@Dragonrage That would be great indeed. There's a big effort toward that underway already, luckily
 
@Dragonrage Well, there have been reports of stem cell transplants curing MS and that is my field, but I'm just researching pediatric stem cell transplantation, and children generally don't get MS. I'd be very hesitant to go there, though, it's a very high-risk procedure. I'm genuinely very worried by commercial parties offering stem cell transplants for MS, it's one of the most dangerous recent developments in the field imo.
 
4:36 PM
@Dragonrage consider that this is probably the far extreme of a broad distribution. A lot of folks don't read at all; a lot of folks read a little (first answer, first few answers, read until they get what they're looking for). Some folks read the top comments, fewer read the whole thread, fewer still will read the whole thread on all answers, etc.
 
@Dragonrage First the subject of (medicalxpress.com/news/…) and then also more recently (news.ohsu.edu/2019/04/18/…)
 
@ErikA yeah, my mom got MS quite young. around 10 or so iirc. she actually was paralyzed on one side of her body for quite awhile when she was young. she wasnt diagnosed as having MS though, because they didnt think children could get it.
 
@Shog9 don't forget those that don't click show 1337 more comments ...
 
yeaaaah...
@GeorgeStocker related:
44
A: Does meta have to mean murder?

Shog9This is a topic near and dear to my heart... This makes me think there's something systemic that's contributing, something that works against good people trying to do good things. That thing is people. I'm not saying here that people are inherently evil and any non-trivial concentration of ...

 
@rene id rather click show more comments, or open a chat room and read the transcript than go look for answers that are responses to the answer i am reading
4
 
4:46 PM
Okay. If that is what most prefer, then we keep doing that
 
4:58 PM
@Shog9 I loved that post, but this line really got me:
> We now know that meta participation is the source of all meaningful leadership and governance in a community, so it is cultivated and monitored closely.
We haven’t been cultivating and monitoring it closely. So I felt a bit warm in the neck when I read that
 
@Dragonrage The original idea was that people discuss in comments, and the accumulate enough interesting insight to put it into an answer
But that second part is tedious and takes a lot of work to phrase and formulate, and there's always the nagging worry of being downvoted.
At least, that's how I'm reading into it
 
@Madara I’ve seen people over the past week or so say that as an explicit reason why they don’t answer
 
@MadaraUchiha I have no problem encouraging people to post answers after they discuss in comments/chat especially if they have points that they feel strongly about that arent listed in other places. I do have a problem with deleting the comments because they would be better served in an answer.
 
@MadaraUchiha part of that is that meta is a powder keg. You can never be quite sure where the axe will fall. Even unpersonalised and without consequences getting downvoted feels bad
it's more emotional investment to put up like that. Comments are fire and forget, and you never quite get a grip of the level of disagreement due to no downvotes.
 
Comments are not a good place in my opinion to post an argument/statement that you know would get you downvoted heavily as an answer, because it would get downvoted heavily as an answer.
Case in point, my comment moderation post. I knew it would get to -200 easy
 
5:12 PM
I tend to agree
 
Still posted it, because it needed to have been posted.
 
but the current kerfuffle doesn't end with enforcing more answers
we must address why people dislike answering on meta
 
I could have posted it as a comment, and then instead of 200 downvote I would have gotten 800 angry comments detailing all the ways I was wrong
 
namely that its an unpredictable powder keg with many unspoken rules and quite volatile
 
And no one would have any bearing on what was going on anymore.
 
5:13 PM
making it feel pointless to do so doesn't help
 
@Magisch because downvotes are unwelcoming
 
@Dragonrage no one has said they’re deleting comments because they should be answers. chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/197438/the-meta-room
 
@Dragonrage I think that public downvotes are unwelcoming.
For a few reasons
 
I know you're being sarcastic, but have you ever tried to go to meta for help with your closed question and gotten slammed to -25 because you didn't hit the right tone?
(that no one told you was required and it doesn't say anywhere)
 
5:15 PM
just make it so we can downvote comments and people wont post bad answers in comments as much, because they wont like the downvotes we give them :)
 
1. When vote counts are public, it makes it easy to pile on
For example, my post hovered on the ±10 for about 2 days before it reached some threshold and boom, -150
The "meta effect" is also a very well known phenomenon.
2. Stack Overflow is a public place. I list it on my CV alongside online profiles like GitHub and LinkedIn
Nobody wants a bunch of -10 questions lingering under their name
So people are afraid of participating
This is doubly true for meta.
Where things are even more aggressive and confrontational, by design.
 
@ErikA Not all Tavern ROs are so familiar with SO... *cough*
 
Most new users don't come to meta because everything is just great and they want to get involved more
they come here because they feel they've been wronged and someone told them to take it to meta
 
@Magisch this is somehow both strangely accurate and an understatement
 
for that context the reception most find on meta could not be more counterproductive if we tried
 
5:18 PM
@Magisch correction: Someone told them to take it to meta, usually knowing full well what would be the consequence of that.
 
through immersion, through hundreds of answers, I kinda have a feel of what tone to hit so I can say most things on meta without getting downvote bombed, mostly. But someone who has not had that practice, but an equally good argument, can get bombed
it's pretty arbitrary if you consider it that way. Often times it's not really what you say that matters, but the tone in which you say it and the lingo you use
 
@MadaraUchiha that lends credence to the “unwelcoming” theory. 🙁
 
@GeorgeStocker Stack Overflow is not a welcoming place.
A very large portion of people I've spoken to (and I've reached quite a bit), refrain from participating on Stack Overflow because they are afraid.
 
sending a new user who is aggrieved over a moderation action to meta is basically sending them into the meat grinder
you see it every day
 
@MadaraUchiha yes but you can’t say that because people will disagree, downvote you and say you don’t represent the community because how dare you say it’s unwelcoming
 
5:20 PM
By that very definition, they don't feel welcome here, regardless of our thoughts on the matter.
 
There is no sardonic emoji but I need one
 
on main, getting -15 on your post feels devastating. On meta it's tuesday. The software looks the same, people who come have no exposure to know its different.
 
mission accomplished
 
And then, after all that, they get a link to the "voting on meta is different" post
 
What's true is already so, owning up to it does not make it worse.
 
5:21 PM
but they're not listening anymore
 
(Extra points to whomever manages to cite that quote)
 
they're sad and angry and disillusioned
some people then sit down and come around
 
@MadaraUchiha Eugene Gendlin
I googled it
 
but a system that makes you go through the stages of grief as some sort of coincidental twisted initiation is pretty messed up
2
 
Now I gotta read the book
 
5:23 PM
Case in point, without looking, I will hazard a guess, without looking that this question is already closed with at least -5. i.stack.imgur.com/QdrOe.png
 
also, being so dismissive is exhausting, we're all empathic people, so seeing someone crash and burn and feel bad feels bad by proxy. "Negative", if you will. This burns out the meta folk additionally
 
I was close. It's -6, but with 2 close votes already :D
 
It’s worse than that. It’s a new question but they closed it as a duplicate of the old and he still doesn’t have the actionable information needed to salvage it
 
Why can't you answer me or comment me what i did wrong — Victor 23 mins ago
If only there was meaningful information presented on the page for what downvotes mean in a location where people could find it (not being sarcastic) — Kevin B 23 mins ago
 
This user had previously asked the same question, got feedback on meta, and... made the problem worse unfortunately in his second attempt.
 
5:26 PM
@Magisch Sounds like hazing to me. Are we a fraternity?
 
So we're ... locked ... in this dynamic of getting angry at people because they don't seem to care and put no effort. But they didn't sign up to become a metahead! someone told them to seek help here with their grievances
 
like, there's literally nothing in the UI for new users to tell them what's going on
 
@KevinB None.
 
they get something if they hover over the vote buttons, but who does that?
 
personally, i find SO a lot more welcoming that Workplace.
 
5:26 PM
and then new users walk away with "wow, first they closed my question and then they were mean to me too, screw this, screw this whole website"
 
@Magisch and if we do that to guests, how do we treat people we know?
 
and the people on meta are left with "they just keep coming and they don't read and don't care. And in enduring all this the company has stopped listening to us too"
cue more drama
 
“Familiarity breeds contempt”, as the saying goes
 
it's somehow self reinforcing and pretty bad for one's mental health, on either side of the divide
nerves are raw among the veterans of meta and curation, and raw nerves makes you curt. And people who feel wronged by the system, they only have the names of the people interacting with them to put a face to the mistreatment
so it reinforces itself and becomes worse
in a way the software and rules of SO are failing new users and veterans
 
when you tell someone you wont help them with something they want you to help them with, it doesnt really matter how friendly of a tone you use, people wont like it
 
5:30 PM
Yeah but the feel of how you're being told that makes all the difference
imagine you're talking to a coworker
"I don't have time to help with that right now because I have a deadline, but look at {resource}" vs "You are inadequate for even asking that question? What kind of question is that anyways, I can't even reproduce that!"
 
@Dragonrage It's not exactly that
 
doesn't matter how you word it the comment interactions are only a small piece of the user experience
 
There are those who would feel that way, and get angry, just for being told off.
I honestly don't care about those.
In a world of seeders and leechers, they are leechers, and likely will remain so for the foreseeable future. I am content with those not even opening an account with us.
 
most people aren't leechers though
 
Exactly
And those who will take feedback are also being steered away by the system.
 
5:33 PM
be it language barriers, infamiliarity, or what have you, most people asking on SO think they're doing the right thing
and act in good faith
 
It's not the being told off is inherently bad. I want to improve.
 
@MadaraUchiha the problem, imo, is that SO as a company has led a lot of people to think that they care about those people.
i definitely agree we need to work on being more polite
 
but they have emotions too, and this site does a particularly piss poor job of not making you feel like a failure
 
I often remind my coworkers to be vicious in their code review when they review my code.
@Dragonrage It's not even that
 
I know I spent like 3 months or so mustering courage before my first post
 
5:34 PM
When you get -4 score, your question is closed (and all the names of the people who think your question is crap are listed there), and you also get 3 comments telling you what's wrong
 
the problem is even when you're being "polite", if you're not answering, you're not helping
 
In this scenario, no matter how nice everyone are, you're still being told off by what you perceive to be at least 10 people
And that's overwhelming.
 
@KevinB thats not true
I was in the mentorship experiment
most people were greatful someone cared
cared enough to put some sense to the unintuitive UI and expectations
 
Like 90% of the discontent on the site by veterans directed at the company is that they need to pick up the slack of the unintuitive UI and system tools.
 
more or less
 
5:36 PM
And then the company dares to see that they aren't doing it nicely enough?
 
For me, I still see great benefit in this proposal. We skip the pile-on and votes, make the message when a post gets closed personal and specific, and get it off the site until improved. If only it would actually get implemented
 
After having begged for years for better tools and better UI and better everything.
 
if SO had an effective tutorial we wouldn't have 10 people a day breaking themselves on the cliffs of meta
 
That's the reason, I think, that everyone are this angry.
 
They're this angry because the software failed them
so they made do with what they had
 
5:37 PM
@Magisch No.
I don't think it's that.
People are irritated with malfunctioning software, they aren't angry at it.
 
and it chafes, it's inefficient, we have to compensate for the failure of the systems
 
They're angry at the people behind it, who didn't make it better, then blamed them.
That's how I'm reading it, anyways.
 
and then, to rub the salt in the wound, the company thinks we're the problems
it feels that way anyways, even if they dont mean it
(I'm sure they dont, but the communication job on that was not great)
 
I think it comes down to a mix of reasons. At a certain size, the percentage of people who are going to be entitled or leechers or what have you, although tiny, is still a large number of people. Small percentage, but the most memorable. They leave a bad taste in the mouth of the really tiny number of people who want to help out. Eventually, these people burn out and can't be bothered to spent too much time on each post - it doesn't scale, due to the lack of good tools.
This leads to them getting more abrasive and curt with new users who don't know what they're doing, and giving the toxic impression of the site.
 
I read a good analogy somewhere. You have a leaking boat and you want it to float. You've been given spoons when you asked for a bucket, except your spoon is a fork
and at some point the captain comes around and shouts at you because you got irritable from using a fork to remove water and get angry at the passengers
 
5:39 PM
It's worth noting that the vast vast portion of Stack Overflow audience are leechers, and not seeders.
 
@Magisch It's Mith's humongous post.
 
Over 99% of all traffic is read-only traffic from the outside.
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Not quite, but... similar.
 
And that's a good thing, this is basically what the site is for.
 
Gargantuan
 
5:40 PM
and people that do it do it because they want to give back
 
Good late evening
 
being called unwelcoming and toxic hurts when you pride yourself and find identity in contributing to a worthy cause
it invalidates the time and energy you spend dedicating to that cause
 
> For years, you have been working on cleaning up an oil drip out of a beautiful lake with a spoon, but the small spoon you have is actually a fork. You've spent years asking for at least a spoon to work with, but have gotten nothing. For some reason, though, you keep at it with the fork, for different reasons - some are the people next to you also working with forks, some are the occasional diamond that you can clean and set and make nice - all for free and out of your own time.
Then, one day, someone cuts down all of the trees surrounding the lake. You try to stop them, but they are deaf
4
 
Written like a true moderator of Literature 😛
 
its true though
 
5:43 PM
Oh so true.
 
in the current dynamic everyone loses
part of the debate seems to be about who gets shafted hardest
 
OK, I read the previous 30 or so messages but I can't pinpoint who's chosen which stance on the argument.
 
except we should all be in favor of less losing for everyone
 
Mission accomplished (Kidding)
 
Or is this a reaffirmation thing?
 
5:44 PM
I dont know I'm idly musing on a nice evening
not arguing for or against anyone in particular
 
(Side note: Sounds like the room finally kicked off. "Your last message is too far back". Nice.)
 
It’s evening for you, @Magisch? Where do you hail from?
 
germany
 
@Magisch Nice? Doesn't everyone look like melting ice there anymore?
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ We all pretty much agree here.
 
5:45 PM
@Magisch only been there once; looked beautiful though
 
Maybe you sent the heat wave to us. HOW COULD YOU.
 
28C atm
 
@MadaraUchiha But that doesn't take what seems to be two hours of discussion
 
bit too warm but nothing a fan can't fix, no need to engage the AC
 
@Magisch If by nice you mean hell of heat of humidity, then yes.
That's what I'm doing too.
 
5:46 PM
It is a bit humid, yea
 
@Magisch ACs today are more electricity efficient than most fans, FYI
 
65% humidity. Not too bad...
 
@MadaraUchiha only difference is I think we can fix our own behavior even if the overall dynamic doesn’t change. It’s not easy, but we can control how we respond as a community.
 
yeah, I have one. It takes about as much electricity as 3 fans while running, but needs to run less
 
@GeorgeStocker Honestly? I think it is unfair to expect this change from our users.
 
5:47 PM
Change needs to come from both sides.
 
At least not without a sign of goodwill from the company (which, hopefully is coming)
 
Ditto.
 
@Mithrandir we can’t control whether SO/SE decides to change
 
One thing I noticed is that every surge of hope was accompanied by an almost immediate step backwards, which is not really reassuring.
 
@GeorgeStocker We can't control how this entity called "the community" decides to change, either.
 
5:48 PM
And ultimately we can lobby for it but tying our change to theirs is in effect giving up our own responsibility and agency
 
We can attempt at persuasion, but ultimately each person is responsible for their own behavior.
 
trying to dogpile employees whenever they show up certainly isn't a means to get them to change, though
 
@Magisch No, it's a means to vent.
 
@MadaraUchiha indeed, and as arbiters Of the community it falls to us as the last hope for ensuring the bright red lines aren’t crossed or are appropriately handled if they are
 
If a major change comes, and people notice a big difference with how they did something with the site, they can be persuaded to take a second look at their cynical remark on meta.
 
5:49 PM
@GeorgeStocker Absolutely.
 
Hasn't happened yet.
 
if I was shog i'd be weary of showing up anywhere lest I get another 50 variation of the same argument I already got 300 pings on varying levels of friendliness about
 
But it is a means that is rather unfair to the staff member.
 
I get screaming into the void is nice to vent if you view it that way
but the void has feelings and is a person too :p
 
Which I reckon is why @Mith thinks working on the close vote queue can really, REALLY help things.
 
5:50 PM
oh was that evident
 
Nope. You are a very subtle man.
 
@Mithrandir Sara cited mental health concerns regarding employees visiting meta
While I'd maybe argue that it's a tad overly dramatic (sorry Sara!), the argument behind it is sound.
Meta is not a fun place to go in, when you're an employee of the company everyone loves to hate at the moment.
 
@MadaraUchiha I dont know. I know i'm not CM material but still
 
Are we surprised that they're pulling out?
 
I've written, uh, rather extensively on what I think about staff / community communication; I think everything I have to say was in there somewhere
 
5:51 PM
I'm not.
 
but I would have a far shorter fuse then say tim
 
I signed up for this. I knew what I was getting into when I nominated myself three times in a row and eventually got elected.
 
I've had a taste of what it feels like to be the butt of rigteous anger as a minecraft admin
it was exhausting and depressing and frankly annoying on a level I couldnt even conceptualize beforehand
and I was doing it as a hobby and could pull out at any time
 
But a person that was hired to do a product or manage the community? I can totally see why some of them would refuse to engage in a farce where 400 people yell at you from different directions.
 
now think its your livelyhood and simply stopping isn't in the cards
 
5:53 PM
Yup
 
@Magisch Moderating something is always going to be harder than you think.
 
its not hard to believe that could give you anxiety or depression
 
@MadaraUchiha I’m especially sensitive to not taking people at their words when they talk about mental health issues. Even if you think it’s dramatic please keep that to yourself; airing it here is not constructive and it’s hurtful to people with mental health issues.
 
The other day I just saw an announcement which is now on meta.SE from 2013 which everyone in the community disagreed with but had a score of some 100. Sums up in a nutshell what has changed.
 
So a thought experiment. Imagine you're anxious and having panic attacks. Pretty bad stuff right? But you care about the people who are giving you those, and you want to still hang out with them, you respect and cherish them in good times. So you tell them, and you try to convey the gravity of the discomfort they're causing you
first reaction? "You're being dramatic, stop being such a wuss"
There is hardly a worse feeling you can imagine
 
5:55 PM
By no means is that what I meant.
 
not saying you
 
@GeorgeStocker He was not talking about not taking mental issues seriously, and the fact that he thinks Sara was being dramatic shows he's on the same page as you.
 
but if you look under sara's post and in the chat that followed it
that is the message that came across
I hope none of the employees who spoke up had the displeasure of reading the comments before they got curbed
 
I don't know if it's me with an especially thick skin, but this is, ultimately an internet community, where points and votes don't really matter. Doubly so on meta. "Fake internet points" is the term they use.
While it wasn't fun for me to take a -200 on my meta post, I'll admit that I didn't really lose much sleep over it.
 
maybe I'm biased on this because i've been on the recieving side of similar dismissal with former friends of mine. there's not a lot in the world that makes you feel worse
 
5:57 PM
Then again, different people, different reactions. I can't speak for anyone else.
 
internet investment can be just as real as real investment
 
You don't need to tell me about investment.
 
I consider some people on here close friends, and enjoy their company as much as that of real friends
 
There's one simple point: don't debate the validity of an emotion, ever. Mental health is even worse. Receiving perceived rejection is very different for different persons
2
 
I've over 120k points here. I'm a moderator. I've been here for 8 years. That's all of my adult life.
 
5:58 PM
@MadaraUchiha I have people around me that suffer from mental health issues, and I have a fairly good idea of what it's like. Having loads of disagreement from people on meta should be the last drop in a sea of grievances if it causes similar things.
 
I'm plenty invested in this site, moreso than most of my real-life endeavors.
 
@MadaraUchiha I'd wager quite a bit of your identity and sense of self is in this project then, right?
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ If you have mental issues that could be worsened by being in a situation like meta. absolutely do not go on meta
If you have a broken leg, do not try to run a marathon.
 
@MadaraUchiha That too.
 
You know yourself best.
 
5:59 PM
I used meta as a bit of a trial by fire to try and get better with my raging anxiety
 
@Magisch Indeed
 

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