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6:00 PM
That's not the issue. Meta was causing the issues, not exacerbating a previous condition.
 
that was probably a mistake at the start
 
@Mithrandir Perhaps it's just too hard for me to imagine. But again, different people, different reactions.
 
I think this was a tangential point anyway, why are we getting hung up on this?
 
Yes, let's move on.
 
I have no issues believing meta is giving employees panic attacks
especially those employees that care and empathize with people there
alright
 
6:01 PM
This conversation has made me put off a shower for an hour... oof...
 
@Mithrandir Writers take showers, Mith. The only place where you can clear your mind.
 
Oh gawd that feed question
It's the same user posting again and again...
 
Actually, I have never figured out how that works. I can concentrate on something for a full hour if I want to, but I've never been able to channel my thought in the shower for more than 10 minutes.
 
You have to fall asleep in the shower...
 
6:04 PM
@MadaraUchiha Did I ever tell you what the definition of insanity is?
 
@ErikA Was it challenging the Dothraki in an open field?
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ using the word “dramatic” dismisses the importance of what was said. We take them at their word and keep our disagreements about whether it’s literal inside ourselves.
 
I explicitly pointed out that was not the case for me, but let's move on.
 
@MadaraUchiha I edited their Q on main and suggested a likely duplicate (sans close vote for now)
lets see how it does
 
6:09 PM
BTW, what if there was a compromise between the user stance and the mod stance on comments? I'm talking for myself on this one, but comments having moved to chat was annoying because of the UI which could easily improved by minor fixes. The rest of the annoyance can also be explained by the reluctance to change habits. What if posts that are bound to get a lot of comments don't have a comment section under the question, but a dedicated chatroom, right from the start?
And I think you already developed a script which predicts what posts will . . .
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ it’d be nice to have a permanent question attached chatroom that didn’t get obliterated by time
 
Which posts are bound to get a lot of comments from the start?
 
For a particular question and its answers
 
@MadaraUchiha nice
 
@rene apparently questions relating to mod actions
😜
 
6:11 PM
@ErikA I tried to play Far Cry 3 (working my way through the series starting at 1) and it was a large improvement over 1 and 2 but just seemed too dated/clunky for the amount of formula I was having to endure
 
@GeorgeStocker Not for everything, but if an announcement, a highly controversial post, or a really good suggestion is gonna get hundreds of comments, and you can tell that right from the start, why not make it more official and give it its own place of discussion?
 
I'm enjoying Far Cry 4 though, which makes me even more excited for Primal and then 5
 
@TylerH I watched the movie, heh
It wouldn't make sense for a post that'd get only 5 comments.
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ The... what?!
 
Well, it would make sense but it's not a likeable solution then.
@ErikA Exactly
 
6:13 PM
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ wait, there's a Far Cry movie?
 
Yeah and it's probably in the bottom 100 movies of all time, so don't bother.
I only watched it because it was on TV here. They were obsessed with it a while ago.
I might watch the Super Mario movie because of "Monkey".
 
The "definition of insanity" quote didn't originate in far cry 3 btw
it's far older
 
Far Older 3
Does the game consist of solving crossword puzzles?
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Oh, bummer..
 
@TylerH Yeah I mean, it's gonna be especially disappointing for you since you seem to be a fan of the game.
 
6:19 PM
I loved all of the far cry games for different reasons
Though I felt like 4 and 5 rehashed the style of 3 without adding to it
 
It'd be like Sicario 2.
An attachment you wish to have never happened.
 
I've recently rediscovered RimWorld, and have been playing almost every day for the past two months
 
Stares meaningfully into eternity
 
@MadaraUchiha I keep hearing really good things about it. Never played
 
why do php questions have quality issues? - probably because php has quality issues
 
6:22 PM
@GeorgeStocker RimWorld is the kind of game that you open up at a lazy evening on 8PM, play for an hour or two, and suddenly light is streaming from the window, and it's 6AM, and you need to get ready to work.
 
@GeorgeStocker It's a great timesink. Absolutely brilliant.
It's similar in that regard to Dwarf Fortress, but different in that it has graphics and a much shallower learning curve. (yes I know DF can have graphics)
 
I think I played at least a hundred different colonies (you lose like 19 out of 20 times), and each one was fundamentally different. Not "oh look, it's procedurally generated, so it's endless!", but you actually have vastly different concerns and needs if you land with one colonist or three, or if you land in the desert, in the forest, or on an ice sheet. And that's even before taking the actual in-game difficulty levels into account.
 
@MadaraUchiha depends what level you play
 
And all of what I said, doesn't even touch on the modding community that this game has.
@TylerH Cassie Ruthless for me, every time 😉
 
If you play with cassandra or randy and higher than 'easy' (whichever level is above base builder) then yeah, there's a good chance of losing
 
6:26 PM
sounds a bit like minecraft if minecrafts premise was "I kill you and hardcore mode only"
 
@MadaraUchiha I see you're a glutton for punishment
 
I'm a sucker for realism and a good story.
@Magisch It's a bit like dwarf fortress, if dwarf fortress had drugs and organ harvesting and cannibalism.
 
I've never lost a colony with phoebe chillax, or with either of the other two sims where it is set to the level above basebuilder (where you have reduced threats)
@MadaraUchiha DF does have those
 
Huh.
Then it is more like DF than I had thought :D
 
It is definitely DF-lite
 
6:28 PM
@TylerH endgame phoebe ruthless will smite you down without mercy.
That she gives you more time between attacks only allows her to accumulate more raid points to attack you with.
 
I never play ruthless because I don't enjoy such things as games. But I don't doubt it
 
Randy is basically enjoying the game without the storytelling aspects of it
Sure, you get random hilarious events like a pack of manhunting alpacas killing everyone off, while simultaneously getting a caravan, and they get slaughtered by the furry adorableness
But Cassie/Phoebe try to give progression to the game in a way that Randy doesn't.
 
The worst is the nanite disease as there's no cure
to me
 
@TylerH It's a double edged sword. It brings pain, but increased move and manipulation.
Worst for me is toxic fallout. I hate it.
 
oh yeah, that
and fire spread since like version 1.12
terrible
 
6:31 PM
That's usually on you though, only you can prevent forest fires! :D
 
Not during thunderstorms that land lightning strikes outside my home area...
 
I don't generally have fire problems since I start building with stone early.
 
Really my only wish for Rimworld development (that I know it will probably never get because the dev has said he doesn't want to do it) is for it to get z levels. Then it would really be better than Dwarf Fortress in every way for me.
 
One too many wood bases sunk the lesson home :D
 
I'm not too concerned about my base burning down as I am about not having any trees or plants or animals to harvest outside
 
6:32 PM
@TylerH That sorta exists in a mod
Mines, I think
 
Hmm
I'll check it out
 
But it's far from perfect.
 
I use them sparingly for RimWorld
 
I have like 300 loaded at any given time :D
Send help
 
mostly I use quality of life stuff like inventory management and a mod that lets you see the stats of chased settlers or w/e
I did download a multiplayer mod though, interested in trying that out some time with my friend
Though it's not how I first imagined... I thought it'd be two of you controlling your own bases on the same world, but it's literally just screensharing, I think
or maybe you get your own view but you both control the same base/colonists
 
6:37 PM
@TylerH Yeah, IIRC that's what it is.
I think that you two control the same faction
And while you could possibly agree to set up two separate bases and ignore the other's events, it's kinda clunky.
 
I'll hold out hope for that feature in a RimWorld 2...
 
I actually have no idea if Tynan is working on a second game.
It'd be hard to match up the hype of that.
 
usr
@ErikA There is a difference between being abused to be point of getting issues and having a thin skin. Yes, the sender of a communication has a responsibility to be decent. But the receiver also has a responsibility to be robust to a degree. People do have control over their emotions to a certain extent.
When I saw "psychological safety" invoked as an argument I really had trouble seeing how this can be the case. It seems like a very convenient argument because nobody would argue that someone has to do something psychologically unsafe.
I do understand that it's not a nice experience to spend hours and days in a place where many people are hostile in subtle or not so subtle ways. But speaking of actual psychological problems from this seems exaggerated to me.
 
@MadaraUchiha AFAIK he's not. RimWorld has been his dream and baby.
Everything I've heard from him is that he won't do another one after RimWorld is "done" (whatever that means)
but I dunno how much $$$ he's made, or how long he'll do dev work on RW
 
usr
6:52 PM
"don't debate the validity of an emotion, ever" => What does "validity" mean? If you meant to say that people do not have any responsibility to manage their own emotions I strongly disagree.
 
@usr There's a huge difference between being overly cautious of others emotion to the point that it's restricting what you can do and say, and debating an emotion when someone has it. Emotion is a tricky thing, it's unexpected and sometimes overwhelming.
 
@usr No, it means that you don't get to tell another person what and how they feel something.
If they tell you they are distressed, you can't, in good conscious, tell them "No you are not"
@ErikA That's not what @usr is getting at though.
 
The main thing I mean is when someone says I feel hurt/insulted/angry, you should be very careful asking why, and not say stuff like that's stupid because I was clearly not trying to hurt or insult you.
 
He's getting at the fact that citing mental issues can insta-win (or at least insta-end) any discussion or argument.
That's what (correct me if I'm wrong) he's having a problem with.
The real question here is whether it is being used responsibly or not, and while I tend to assume good faith and back off when I'm told to, I have no illusions regarding the existence of people who abuse this ability to stop any criticism and discussion.
Simply because: people lie. that's a thing.
Some moreso than others.
 
But the assumption should be that they're not.
 
6:58 PM
Well, that's only true if it's a discussion about or with a specific individual. If you are discussing a general concept people can just leave the discussion and it can go on. Emotion being an insta-end for discussion with a specific individual is a fact for me, you can't discuss something with someone if you're emotionally hurting them
 
@Mithrandir Yes. Absolutely.
 
@MadaraUchiha Even if used responsibly and sincerely, it doesn't mean there's no longer a problem or rather that the discussion is resolved. Rather, when this happens it usually means the problem isn't over, the discussion just... halted.
 
@TylerH What is true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.
 
I think there's some frustration with that happening and then the users on the other side sitting there going "OK, now what? Is there someone else I can talk to about this?"
 
The rest of this quote is:
> Not being open about it doesn't make it go away. And because it's true, it is what is there to be interacted with. Anything untrue isn't there to be lived. People can stand what is true, for they are already enduring it.
 
6:59 PM
I'm not sure how that quote is relevant
to what I said
 
@TylerH That we cease discussion about a problematic topic because it is problematic, doesn't make it go away, or any less problematic.
We are exchanging a set of problems now, for a (usually larger) set of problems in the future.
 
@MadaraUchiha OK. I don't get that from the quote at all. Guess it goes to show how famous quotes can be applied to any meaning or situation :-)
 
> Not being open about it doesn't make it go away.
Have you seen the rest of the quote? :)
 
Yes
 
This is kinda why I disapprove (even though I understand), SO's disengagement from meta.
Disengaging, while could be useful in some ways, does not do anything to solve the problem.
In fact, in this case, it is almost certainly exactly exchanging one set of problems we have now, with a much larger set of problems we'll have in the (not that far) future.
At least, that's how I see it.
This is also why I'm fighting for meta. Even through the community's resistance. I honestly believe that if meta gets piped to /dev/null it's game over.
 
7:08 PM
i believe it's already game over. i'm just here to watch the catastrophe unfold at this point.
 
@KevinB I still have faith
The day that faith is gone is the day I put down my diamond.
 
It feels like the current goals are converting the site from a "library" to a "help desk" where any question can be asked and answered regardless of usefulness/research, and getting anyone who disagrees with that sentiment to shut up and leave, banking on the fact that there will be an endless supply of new users excited to come in and earn rep answering questions that have been answered thousands of times here already.
 
@KevinB I think it's not quite like that
 
and that's of course the point where the site stops being a place i want to be a part of, but certainly not the end of it. just the end of me being part of it.
 
When the site was created, the landscape of the industry was very very different from what it is today.
 
7:10 PM
I'm aware
 
Back in 2008, a much larger portion of developers were developers because they loved it, and not because it was an easy source of money.
 
and that's why i believe the site is going in that direction.
a help desk is sorely needed
and SO's format fits it perfectly
if not for downvotes
 
@MadaraUchiha Same here. As long as I feel that there's worth in working with how things are going, I'll stick around. As soon as that's gone... I'm gone, too.
 
@KevinB Losing the downvote button, for example, would be a good indication for me to jump ship.
 
Stack Overflow is pretty much immortal though. They can throw it into read-only mode, ditch the database and all posts getting <1 view/day, fire nearly all staff, and cash in on the ads. We'll be obsolete, no-one will complain about it not being welcome, and it'll probably be a well-earning company for many years. Catastrophe may unfold, but the site is robust enough to handle pretty much anything. It'll just become less useful for everyone.
 
7:15 PM
@MadaraUchiha I'm still waiting on that easy source of money... Maybe I should remind my manager about that...
 
@TylerH Maybe you should vOv
"easy" being a tricky term him, mind you
It sure as hell looks easy from the outside.
 
Unrelatedly, from what part of the country do you hail, @Madara?
 
@Mithrandir Originally, קריית שמונה (too much a pain to spell it in English, sorry y'all), nowadays, Tel Aviv
 
7:22 PM
Interesting. I pass through K"Sh about once a week.
I don't head lower than the Galil very often, though ;)
 
You still in School, or are you in the workforce yet?
 
I've never been enrolled in school. I have a high school certificate, and I've just had my Tzav Rishon.
 
@Mithrandir Aye, that's what I meant, I remember you were in HS
Neat, know where you're heading yet?
 
Not for sure, but from the date I got, looks like Dover Tzahal, which is where I requested
 
Nice, I've a feeling you'll do well there
 
7:27 PM
Certainly better than some other positions. :P I've heard that since I've got a high dappar score, the Air Force is going to try to pressure me to head there, but I'm... not really interested in that
 
@Mithrandir the tech array?
Or some other role?
 
Probably. I don't qualify as a pilot, but I've heard that both the intelligence units and the Air Force will put pressure on kids with the dappar score that I've got.
 
Everyone puts out pressure for folks with high dappar
It depends on profile too
 
Yeah. I've got a profile of... 64, I think?
 
It's been a few years since I've left the airforce, but back then 72-64 profile were often pulled to the tech array
Is Tzav Rishon still in the Bakum in tel hashomer?
 
7:31 PM
It's at your closest Lishkat HaGiyus.
 
Or did they get around to relocating it?
Ah right, pfft, that's the actual enrollment
So yours is in Tveria, I'm guessing?
 
It was, yes
 
Did you get a date, yet?
 
My Giyus date is early 2021
So... yeah. Got a drop of time.
 
Neat, best of luck 😀. Tzahal is both an amazing experience and a.... not that amazing experience 😁
Did you do a Gadna (is that how it's called)?
 
7:34 PM
Since I don't recognize that name, I'll assume no
 
@Mithrandir It's usually done in 11th grade, doing a sorta Tironut
Usually in the most remote shithole possible near Eilat
גַּדְנָ"ע (גדודי נוער או גדודי נוער עברי) הוא ארגון ישראלי לחינוך טרום צבאי. הגדנ"ע הוא מסגרת חסות של צה"ל שאמונה על הפעלת הנוער והכנתו לשירות צבאי. מקום המדינה ועד תחילת שנות ה-90 פעלה המערכת כפיקוד ייעודי שקם כהמשך ועל בסיס מסגרת הגדנ"ע המחתרתית שהפעיל ארגון ההגנה בשנות הארבעים, בה הוכשרו בני הנוער לשירות במסגרות כמו חי"ש ופלמ"ח. פעולות הגדנ"ע השונות הקנו תודעה ביטחונית, מגוון מיומנויות שימושיות וערכים ציוניים-עבריים לנערים שהתנדבו למסגרת. תכליתן הייתה מתן היסודות הדרושים ללוחם איכותי שיקבל את מרבית הכשרתו במסגרות הצבאיות הבוגרות, העסקת הנוער במשימות בלתי אלימות לפי צורכי היישוב וכן הכשרת כוח...
 
What's "dappar score"?
Googling gives me Pakistan, not Israel
 
So nope, don't think I did that
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ psychometric evaluation
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ An incredibly non politically correct scoring system the army uses to quantify the "quality" of people.
 
Do you crack like a walnut, or a wall, under pressure?
 
7:37 PM
High dappar score means that the army believes you're a better human resource and can be sent to more responsibility-inducing or important roles.
 
Isn't everyone under like 100000 pascals of pressure constantly?
 
That's more the kabba, no? The dappar is basically an intelligence score
 
@MadaraUchiha Yeah I figured. The dappar is strong with me
 
@Mithrandir No, you're right, I'm mixing my terms up
The kaba is the general quality score
Dappar is basically how well you did on your psychotechnic tests, right?
 
Oh you have kebabs too. Sounds like some army
 
7:38 PM
@MadaraUchiha Yep. It goes from like 40, I think, to 90.
 
Psychometrics: At least 5% more scientific than psychometry.
 
Unless it was 50? Don't remember. 90 is the highest, that's all I know.
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Heh, the higher officer ranks (fig leaves on the shoulders) are often nicknamed "falafels"
 
> Did you mean Diaper test
 
@ErikA It's a transliteration from Hebrew
 
7:39 PM
Pampers. Definitely Pampers.
 
Psychosomatic is probably a more accurate term in English.
 
Is it like a "solve this puzzle in 5 minutes" or "how many number are flying over the screen" or "I'm gonna tell you dark s*** and you're not supposed to cry"?
Fourth option is I'm way off.
 
"solve 30 puzzles in 15 minutes"
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Exactly that. All three of those.
To some extent.
Although I think the latter two or given in other circumstances.
 
word associations, etc
 
7:42 PM
I don't recall them in my initial screening, but I do recall encountering them
 
That does sound like psychometrics though
 
IIRC it was when I was aiming at being an officer (before I realized what I was doing and slapped myself)
 
I think I sucked at diaper test before operation. Not sure right now.
But I have illusions of Einstein.
You need to have a uniquely . . . abnormally big brain to make up relativity. QED
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ "Is that Einstein? It looks like... no wait it's just Newton, never mind"
 
@Mithrandir I'm probably a Tesla guy.
But more commissioner Gordon.
If I had a clearly defined mustache.
 
7:44 PM
> I invented electricity and all I got was a unit named after me and this lousy T-shirt
 
I think I read somewhere that someone stole his idea and made a very profitable invention thingy and he was all like "yeah I'm cool, that guy's cool"
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ That would be Edison
 
> "someone"
 
And the light bulb.
Yeah.
 
@MadaraUchiha I'm not sure the "thick/thin skin" theory is particularly accurate. There seems to be a pretty big difference between people in terms of how they react to the responses of others, but "thick skin" supposes that we're all interpreting those responses in the same way and some of us shrug them off more readily. I think it's likely that the interpretation itself differs.
 
7:46 PM
If Edison did that it was for some personal benefit.
 
@Shog9 That's fair.
 
Edison was the archetypal CEO of a leech of a for-profit money machine.
 
@MadaraUchiha IOW, you're able to shrug off downvotes because you can recognize them as being impersonal, and while others would probably be able to shrug them off just as easily if they could do that... They're stuck interpreting them differently.
 
I suppose that while I can see how it could be stressful to standing up to 200 people. I also can't imagine myself having a full-blown panic attack (I've seen one of those enough times) over an internet community, as an adult with no prior mental health history).
 
He electrocuted animals to show AC is dangerous.
 
7:48 PM
@MadaraUchiha what about, say, public speaking? How are you talking to a room of 200 people?
 
@Shog9 Not great, but not terrible either.
But I can see where you're going with this.
 
I'm more ready to say "the interpretation differs". I saw myself transitioning from how I should interpret meta and main downvotes and I vividly remember it.
 
terrible, but i have no problem doing it when i have the illusion that i'm just speaking to a few, :p
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Not only animals, he campaigned to have the first electric chair use the one he was against to make people think it was dangerous
 
See, I'm absolutely terrible in front of a room. Someone grimaces, looks at their phone, steps out... "OMG, they hate me".
 
7:49 PM
@Mithrandir See. You're agreeing with me. No wonder your dappar is high.
 
@Shog9 Right, but it's quite the step from that to having panic attacks
 
@Shog9 I'm absolutely terrible in front of a room. I see people... "OMG they hate me".
 
And if you know, in advance, that you might get a panic attack from speaking in front of 200 people, you need to decline speaking in front of 200 people.
 
@MadaraUchiha I actually gave a talk once crouched behind the podium, yelling at the wall
 
@Shog9 dang, why didn't I think of that in my public speaking classes...
 
7:51 PM
@MadaraUchiha right, but there's the rub: you might not know that until it happens.
 
@MadaraUchiha To be serious for a moment, it's also different when you're used to talking to a calm group of 200, and then suddenly you're speaking to an audience of 200 that's throwing rotten fruit at you - a completely different experience that you'd rather dread repeating.
 
acoustically it probably would've been about the same
 
@TylerH Damn wall, can't keep its mouth shut
@Mithrandir Sure, but on the flip side, it's very different talking to 200 people online, via text, and talking in front of 200 live people who have their attention solely on you at all times.
 
@MadaraUchiha That's not very sound advice though. That's pretty much how agoraphobia starts. If you know you might get a panic attack, you should seek therapy for panic attacks, not avoid the situations they might happen
 
@ErikA I'd intuitively say do both
But I'm not a mental health expert and shouldn't give advice anyways
 
7:52 PM
@ErikA I would hope it's not a permanent suggestion...
e.g. seek therapy before you agree to more large speaking engagements
 
Once you start debating who should and shouldn’t deal with the community haven’t you implicitly acknowledged a problem with the community?
 
@GeorgeStocker There's a problem with the community.
Absolutely. There's no a question in my mind about that.
 
@MadaraUchiha right. And, you might be adept at interpreting, say, body language in a way that allows you to speak without fear, while still not being able to interpret the comments (from folks across many different cultures) in a way that allows the same. Or vice-versa.
 
People are afraid of participating on the site. This is fact, not an opinion. Therefore there is a problem, because it conflict with our goals of people participating on the site.
 
I think this discussion is still tangential. Madara just pointed out that a mental health issue arising from posting on meta is unlikely, and that part isn't about personal experience. Both sides acknowledge that the 200-people yelling thing sucks.
 
7:54 PM
@Shog9 Indeed, I've repeated it a few times in the past few hundred messages. Different people react and perceive different things, differently.
 
And that the experience is negative.
 
Whether it’s likely or not isn’t the issue, it’s that once it happens people debate whether or not it was “dramatic”. That’s the second problem i see.
If people didn’t commonly use the term dramatic to dismiss, I wouldn’t get so hung up.
 
At some point, advice to the audience like "turn off your ringers" or "don't post dozens of comments" or "no heckling" or "read the existing answers before responding"... Become really useful if you want to have a diversity of speakers. Because otherwise you're optimizing for the tiny subset of people who've done it enough to handle anything.
 
@GeorgeStocker The other side of this is that if "you're allowed" to call "mental health" and end the discussion instantly, that's an incredibly "abusable" ability to have.
2
 
There are very few “stop the world” issues I see. A community causing anyone to have a panic attack is one of those. Members of a community debating in public whether it was real or perceived panic attack is the second “stop the world” issue.
 
7:57 PM
Which is why people have problems with it.
 
To prove "people don't get panic attacks, according to the medical definition" quickly and efficiently, you need to provide examples and getting someone in that situation is a terrible thing to do. So you can either keep going on for 3000 more messages or you can let it slide and talk about something that has the slightest practical value. Like how to fix the negative experience.
 
And the internet, at large, is chock full with self-diagnosis
 
Getting the staff to participate in a more controlled environment than the comment section of an announcement is a good start. Again, as Mith pointed out.
 
Proven* self-diagnosis mind you
 
> This about the Internet: Anyone can walk in. And anyone can walk out. And so an online community must stay fun to stay alive. Waiting until the last resort of absolute, blatent, undeniable egregiousness—waiting as long as a police officer would wait to open fire—indulging your conscience and the virtues you learned in walled fortresses, waiting until you can be certain you are in the right, and fear no questioning looks—is waiting far too late.
3
-- Eliezer Yudkowsky, Well-Kept Gardens Die By Pacifism
 
7:59 PM
@MadaraUchiha If a person can’t in good faith trust when someone is telling them how serious something is that it causes panic attacks, I submit that person should find another place to go, as they do not trust the people they’re supposedly community to.
 
@GeorgeStocker Can we just move on. PLEASE. The ultimate result of this discussion is not even going to be editing that answer either way, or doing anything useful as far as I know.
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ is dead-on here, I think. Debating panic attacks is missing the point: we ought not try for a site that's really unpleasant but not quite unpleasant enough that folks leave damaged from using it... We should try for a site that's fun and productive, that doesn't even come close to causing such terrible anxiety.
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ I didn’t bring it back up first. And as I’ve said, there are very few issues I’ll go on about. This is one of those lines.
 
it's that the crux of the whole argument though? we're just providing feedback. If we can't even do that... where do we go from here?
 
We can continue discussing this if you want, elsewhere though. It's clearly a strain on this room and it's not worth it here.
@KevinB Debating mental health claims isn't really the point here. It's a (rather wild) tangent.
@Shog9 This resonates with me.
 
8:04 PM
If we discuss something else, like how to reach a compromise between not putting employees against a jaded, vocal community and that community's respected members plea for more communication and earlier discussion before things go haywire in the next unpopular feature announcement, it would be a far more productive use of our time.
 
Honestly? The only real way forward I see is that the company shows good will and good faith
Take one of the top 5 feature requests, the one that appears best or even least expensive, and implement it.
2
 
@GeorgeStocker What gets me is you both agree on that the employees are not having a good experience on meta, and what the debate really is about is whether it causes some symptoms or not. Who cares? It might seem like a good idea to show how important this is to invoke and incentivize more action, but not when it drowns the really important discussions.
 
Anything, and everything else we might do, tighter comment moderation, reminders to being civil, discussing policy, it's all just delaying the inevitable.
 
2 hours ago, by M.A.R. ಠ_ಠ
If a major change comes, and people notice a big difference with how they did something with the site, they can be persuaded to take a second look at their cynical remark on meta.
If it's just "oh yeah, that looked annoying up there, and now it doesn't", it wouldn't cut it.
 
I just wish there was more info on what's being worked on. All we know is it's something to do with QA and the perceived negativity of moderation. but that's wildly open to interpretation.
2
 
8:08 PM
But if it's something that changes the experience associated with some common activity on the site, it would lighten up a lot of people.
Bonus points if it's a moderation thing.
 
for example, clearly the way downvotes and closing looks/works currently is driving people to leave, or worse, post rants on meta and repeat the process.
imo that'd be a great place to start, but... even that, there's who knows how many different things that could be done to help alleviate that
 
I liked the vote aggregate change for the OP FR.
I still like it.
For someone who doesn't care, -4 and -11 don't differ. For someone that cares, they do.
 
@KevinB We are aware that this is a problem. Mgmt is working on writing better plans for public consumption.
 
Other people might have a good reason to see whether it'd -4 or -11, but the OP doesn't. Just needs to accept that there might be a problem.
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ I'd say it's the other way around.
 
8:13 PM
@MadaraUchiha I'm listening
Turns on Google bot
 
I think a relatively common scenario is user asks crap question, user gets downvoted to oblivion, user thinks "I can't show this off and I don't want this to be under my name", user is unaware the dissociation is a thing, obviously, user deletes their downvoted, closed answer, user is now question banned.
 
Again, that might be a side issue. Can wording solve the problem of entitlement? "If the world doesn't like my post, they're wrong"?
@MadaraUchiha Yeah, of course. There is an awful lot of scenarios that sometimes need conflicting solutions. There's also the people that get upset about the ONE downvote.
I don't have the numbers.
Who does. Maybe rene does.
@KevinB Wasn't there the meta.SE answer? I forget to check that, but I think it has ceased to be updated for a while.
 
the team dag thing, but that stopped
 
And it's not terribly visible, either. There should be a link I can find and click on to take me a to a page on what's being worked on. Not some answer that is easily drowned in an hour.
Of blatantly OT posts about Listview and VBA.
 
the dag update (and the CM's CR update that preceded it) was intended as sort of a stop-gap until we could get a better process in place. That's ended up taking a lot longer than expected.
But... I've seen the draft of the next update. I think y'all will like it.
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8:19 PM
We're ready to like things 👍
 
user3956566
9:07 PM
0
A: Meta does "not host discussion or debate", according to mod message

Yvette ColombI came back to the site to discover a post had been totally derailed with a question posted as an answer and argumentative comment threads every where. When are comments deleted on Meta Stack Overflow? I went into the moderator chatroom and expressed how annoyed I was and asked what do you thin...

 
user3956566
This is where I'm at on meta.
 
9:20 PM
that seems odd. what good is a mod message if it's not threatening some action if the user doesn't... stop whatever brought upon the mod message? :shrug:
i can understand the confusion
 
yes there is one moderator deleting more comments than usual so you know this fact and mods have a chat room for discussion. Before the deletion of comments, why wasn't it discussed in the room itself?
 
@KevinB Sometimes a threat is not really required
"not cool, dude" is often enough.
Sometimes not, but often yes.
 
@KevinB we don’t threaten action. We lay out expectations and if people fail to listen we ratchet it up. Threatening inverts the power dynamic and causes you to be seen as not in control.
 
i mean, sure, but is it not implied that receiving a message from a mod that your actions were... not cool so to speak means that continued similar actions would result in action?
 
That’s also why mod messages are templated, to ensure a neutral voice is used to communicate and not the individuals emotions shining through. Since the need to send a mod message is rare enough to be an instance where emotion may show through
 
9:28 PM
at least, that's how i'd perceive one
 
@KevinB maybe too on the nose but it’s the same reason teachers and parents explain the consequences before enforcing those consequences.
 
@KevinB Some take hints better than others vOv
You'll occasionally see me post a message like "Children, behave" or some such lightweight, half-joking reminder for people to behave
 
"fun" in the java chat
 
Children!
that should be enough
 
9:32 PM
Here, we are all adults so it totally depends upon how the template is framed and how one might interpret it
 
@GeorgeStocker I imagine you should have probably rolled back to revision 11 or 12 meta.stackoverflow.com/posts/261593/revisions - going back as far as you did re-introduced confusing references to deleted content.
(references to which have also been removed from the OP as it's now a tagged )
 
we are all adults ... citation needed? ...
 
@TylerH I’m having the CM team review the verbiage to ensure it’s in line tone wise with the company’s official verbiage. It seems off to me so I’d rather they validate it before rolling it forward.
This is an instance where there is company verbiage and community verbiage and it does no good for them to conflict in tone.
That said I’ll unlock it and roll forward when they sign off
 
means we know the consequences and telling them again and again like if continuing to persist in problematic behaviors is grounds for timed suspension doesn't look good. Templates needs to be edited.
 
9:36 PM
@GeorgeStocker Not to mention there's conflict between company verbiage and company verbiage depending on who responds...
 
@MadaraUchiha you saw that coming, right?
 
@rene Of course. Those eyes of mine are quite a bit better than you mortals (and blurry vegetation)
 
lol
 
user3956566
@rene I told you to be RO
 
user3956566
no one would object except you! wow so inconsiderate :p
 
9:57 PM
Hi
 
user3956566
10:28 PM
I'm going to have a nap - please don't burn down meta while I'm gone ;) I love this community - we're like a huge extended dysfunctional family :p
 
@TylerH I can’t help you there.
 
11:00 PM
Shog's quote about the need for a community to remain fun to survive (chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/46961741#46961741) is right, but not an argument for any particular side in our current battles. Lots of assholes can make a place unfun, but so too can stifling rules and a need to be paranoid about the enforcers coming after you for some infraction you don't understand. I worry that many people see only one side of this.
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