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13:11
does anyone remember of a web standard forbrowsing through a terminal?
@towc there's lynx?
not involving a gui, and giving the web developer a lot of power over what would be rendered on the terminal
@BenjaminGruenbaum is it more than just a browser? Let me have a deeper look at it
I'm talking about something in place of the html standard
tty-focused
I can imagine a few might have been started some years back
I mean, there's telnet, for example, but it's quite limited because it relied on old technology and UX concepts
@towc what purpose does it serve?
I can't imagine many people using it now, but it could be fun to play around with
@littlepootis now? maybe just fun
If the developer wishes, he/she could, without much effort make their website work on terminal browsers just fine.
13:15
really?
well, most browsers would still display things very differently
because they're reading html and making their own sense of what the css is doing in the tty context
there must be something with more control than that
maybe something like an curses file format transmitted over the web
the curses library already has various implementations, but they're more or less standardized, afaict
@towc The web is built on html. If you're browsing something other than html, it's no longer the web.
@KendallFrey well, http is
wait no
I'm referring to the "hypertext" portion of http
which is what I guess evolved into html?
I can use a different port with this other vieweing thing
@towc They might have been developed simultaneously
13:19
@towc Different port?
oh
point was, user-readable web pages are built in html, right?
http was meant to serve html.. but then also images, other files, .json, etc. They came together, but are distinct
which I think http was built for, but it doesn't matter
no, my point was all webpages are built in HTML
all web pages are in html
13:21
@towc all five people browsing the web on terminal emulators would love to see that come into fruition
well, most companies assume HTML for a GUI, because that's where most of the clients are from
and that's the direction html has been moving towards
html is sadness
Hello, is it safe to update wordpress translations? will it not break my site?
@littlepootis for starters, to have something that just works, you can have a browser that just downloads node scripts using ncurses, sandboxes it, and executes it
Correctly used, HTML does nothing but describe the meaning of the content.
13:23
Some AAA games use html/react for their UIs, which just seems strange to me
@ndugger why? it's easily scriptable and much easier than the actual engine to use
@littlepootis sure. I guess then CSS was built to assume GUI much more than html
@ndugger examples?
and it's why lynx and similar just can't really look as good as native-focused curses applications
@BenjaminGruenbaum strange because you need to include a js/html/css engine in your game just to render buttons. Seems like potential redundant overhead
13:24
A webpage written with accessibility in mind and a terminal browser that takes advantage of these accessibility features could achieve what you're trying to do.
@towc Yes
@ndugger definitely, but so?
it's quite sad that there wouldn't be many people to benefit from this, expecially because the most used websites aren't going to spend money rewriting their stuff in this standard
Is it, though?
possibly github, which is my current "usecase"
Why don't you use a browser like a normal person?
13:26
but facebook, amazon, airbnb...
I got lost in the conversation. Can you re-state the idea again clearly?
@Luggage a terminal-focused web standard
not just to make it usable, but to make it good
What would be the point?
so.. just media-specific stylesheet? :)
The current accessibility standards are trying to get people to write websites that run anywhere.
13:27
so you can pretend to be a leet hacker?
@ndugger my own amusement
You need to find a better use for your time
I think we should focus on that than create media-specific (that's the word I was looking for) standartds.
@Luggage the current css standard seems far from a reasonable solution for writing web apps to work in terminals
!!afk meeting
13:28
Maybe just a css extension for any mediaquery things you need for terminal based user-agents
btw, my idea wasn't to make one. I was hoping it already existed and got deprecated, and wanted to play around with it
Just like how pages re-arrange themselves for mobile, you can do so for terminal.
@Luggage but with a lot of overhead effort
sure, maybe someone can write some CSS transpiler that does this and gives the programmer a lot of power with not many costs
If people need to make all new pages, this won't gain traction.
No demand
ohh, the effort of the css addition
@Luggage again, I'm asking in case you know of a standard that already existed
13:31
nope.
gopher
I don't have the time nor skills to make a new one
The Gopher protocol is a TCP/IP application layer protocol designed for distributing, searching, and retrieving documents over the Internet. The Gopher protocol was strongly oriented towards a menu-document design and presented an alternative to the World Wide Web in its early stages, but ultimately Hypertext Transfer Protocol (HTTP) became the dominant protocol. The Gopher ecosystem is often regarded as the effective predecessor of the World Wide Web. The protocol was invented by a team led by Mark P. McCahill at the University of Minnesota. It offers some features not natively supported by the...
I mean, possibly it can be a fun project, but the outcome would be almost useless
@Luggage oh, neat
If you want a website to be available on the terminal, a well constructed REST api can be queried easily with curl.
sure
13:33
from that a commandline interface can be constructed
I came to this because I wanted to make a gh navigator for vim
and that's what I'm probably going to end up doing
or well, actually bundle the fetching and state-provider in node, in a way that vim can call it
and with gh, that's simple enough (well, many hours still)
but it got me wondering
Then your users must be vim AND node users or they will complain about a heavy node.js dependency
@Luggage I can make a separate npm package which can ship binaries, which can be included in the vim plugin
that shouldn't be too hard, but I imagine it's going to be a fun ride
@towc Have you actually written stuff with ncurses?
@KendallFrey just toyed with it
I'm not going to use it for vim. It's powerful enough
13:36
use ssube's react-ncurses thing :)
I wrote something similar, partly because I was daunted by the ncurses API
it's super verbose, right?
I basically ended up with a terminal emulator in WPF
@towc it's written in some stupid low-level language :P
Make a server that hosts ncurses apps as web pages.
btw, I actually remember how I came to the web standard thing: instead of writing something that was specific to github, I could try to make it a bit more general, so it would be easy for other devs to add sites they use often when using vim, like SO, or even just google
which would be simpler than a full-blown standard, because it would be very opinionated, and vim-focused
I do think I should start small though
anyone want to help me with it? Probably just a weekends project, not too sure where to start
13:41
have you made any vim plugin at all? start there.
I'll need to read some source code from other vim plugins that do layout management, for starters
@Luggage very basic stuff
Last but not least - thank you for speaking up. I realize you're arguing an unpopular argument that some people in meta disagree with. I want to reiterate that if you'd prefer giving criticism in a different way (email, the github repo or another alternative) we're genuinely interested in whatever feedback (as negative as it might be) you have to provide. Feel free to reach out via email (benjamingr at google's email service) too if that's better. — Benjamin Gruenbaum 10 secs ago
make a mockup
I mean, I have some clues where to start. A lot of principles for fullstack JS dev seem to apply here too
fake your state when building the UI, then build an API, and then hook the UI to the API
I can do the API part, that's JS :P
hooking to provide state to vim? That should be as simple as filling some vim dictionaries/arrays/variables with the outputs of some commands, obviously wrapped nicely in vim functions
but then I look at this and think "oh boy": github.com/scrooloose/nerdtree/blob/master/plugin/NERD_tree.vim
maybe we need something nice to write in that transpiles to vimscript :P
again, almost 0 demand for it
but it would be a fun project for me
@BenjaminGruenbaum good job Benji
13:57
I don't know, I guess I'm a little post traumatic due to random people on twitter abusing members in Node.js and I don't want to encourage a situation like that here. In Node people actually had to take time off due to mental stress and it had a severe impact on their mental health at times.
I'm with you.
Maybe it's my node mod training in non-aggressive communication, although this room totally wouldn't fly in Node land - if only for things like this.
This is exactly what Fox News tries to scare all the republicans about.
so is this what its all about?
coding for decades?
@Luggage This is exactly what I believe happens in Buzzfeed HQ
14:05
til the hand get's carpel tunnel?
@Traitor or coding until to fail into management
lo
lol
what are your best excuses to leave the house?
it's on fire
on it
14:08
you guys leave the house?
hah
about that, how's the new car treating you @KamilSolecki?
most days. for coffee
say that you are going to kill yourself
that's how i did it
dark.
14:08
@towc super nice! I'm really happy with it ^^
that's uhm wut?
we still talking about the house thing?
@Traitor uhm, 2meirl4meirl?
so you go up to the mirror, tell yourself you're going to kill yourself, and then leave the house?
tell other people, then they drag you out
14:09
no not yourself, wait what?
@Luggage ye
Make fire and Order some fighterfighters
@Traitor are you talking about parents?
depends who you tell
yea, but i dont want to go on to details
anyway..
14:10
im doing better
point is, I feel so grumpy on this bed, but if I left it or the house, I'd just be sitting there like "cool. What now?"
Yeh, let's cast the black bags away and move on
I need to make a habit of going out more. like for walks or something
I did it maybe twice these past few days. It's not fun
I'll post an answer
14:11
@BenjaminGruenbaum the meta post?
@Luggage I really enjoy late night walks, especially when it's nobody around
Super calming
@KamilSolecki see how fast you can get to BA with it
so we can get pizza
@towc I can calculate, would that be enough?
I live in the wrong spot. I need to either be closer to the city, or further away.
@KamilSolecki then you can test your calculations
@Luggage always busy, but not the nice type busy?
Ie the streets
no, it's quiet. But I can see my neighbors
some friends are possibly picking me up in around 1hr, for dinner. Don't know how to spend the rest of the time without feeling guilty
like, if I go outside
14:13
@towc yeah
you're a nice guy, you've helped quite a bit already. Is this still bothering you?
I feel like just about anything else is just going to fuel the flame and bring some more drama
Having read his previous responses and knowing even more time has past, I am not worried about him responding at all.
@towc so far benji has been calming the situation down thremendously
exactly
Personal recap: I wouldn't actually change the room name & I wouldn't gallery it, but simply progress as we did before with keeping in mind that we have a freeze at hand when we want to discharge the situation when it gets touchy.
14:25
I wouldn't mind if the world started using the name ECMAScript, though.
@KamilSolecki I'd love a discussion about it...
I wouldn't gallery it and I would probably name it
@rlemon we're still having a discussion on GH, the fact madara closed it doesn't change that
but spelling ECMAScript is hard
@BenjaminGruenbaum I disagree, that seriously over steps boundaries and discourages people from commenting. "well a mod already made the decision"
but I'm going now, I already said too much that will cause more drama
14:29
@rlemon hangouts later?
(Pls I wanna see your succulents)
isn't it already late there?
@StackOverflow please add user local time to the popup
bad idea
@Luggage 4 pm
4:31*
@KamilSolecki isn't it already past your bed time then?
16:31 as we say in the states
14:31
go to bed!!11oneone
@Luggage no you don't that's what we say here!
@BenjaminGruenbaum I was about to direct that question to you, but thanx for answering. Looks like, It was my dumb question, despite I used Java.
@rlemon would it make you feel any better if I reopened it?
Inb4 when I write I use 12h based, when talking almost always 24h
@overexchange what?
14:33
@Loktar @ShrekOverflow I'm considering moving to a mechanical keyboard (having never really used one before) - the Cherry MX Speed Silver looks tempting. Anything I should be wary of? (I've found regular keyboards to be too stiff, so linear sounds good to me as opposed to risking it with a tactile one that feels too heavy. Context: repetitive strain injury)
I really love this phone (OnePlus5). Driving for 3h, screen on, navigation running, music running and I'm at 39% battery. Another 29h runtime on regular usage
Good stuff!
@SomeGuy Can't go wrong at all with the MX reds if you don't want heavy keys
And now I can charge it to 95% in 15 minutes
I forgot that I used private access specifier for encapsulation using Java
14:36
Python is my recently used language, so i was thinking on those lines
yeah reds are really nice @SomeGuy I can't speak for many others
don't get blues or greens if you don't like heavy
those are the only other MX types I've really used
I've got red at work and brown for gaming at home
tl;dr The silvers he mentioned are just shorter travel reds.
yeah there are too many to keep track of now
clears, silvers, blacks, silent colors...
peridot
14:44
lol
@BenjaminGruenbaum That sounds a lot more open than the feeling I got from reading the GH topic. Did you have a change of mind or am I misreading something?
@OliverSalzburg a lot more open than what?
You mean gallery? I want to attract less attention to the room
From the GH issue, it sounded like you would prefer if we isolate ourselves more. The meta post sounded more like "Sorry, but let's move on"
I feel like the atmosphere has been too tense everywhere since the blog post
I dislike this
@OliverSalzburg I'd prefer it if we toned down our visibility a bit just to reduce drama - I do want to collect genuine feedback if applicable.
14:51
@BenjaminGruenbaum Sounds good :)
changes room name to perl
lol
Change the name to Common Lisp, then no one would come
We obviously need 2 rooms to do some A/B testing
well.. I know one person
14:58
@BenjaminGruenbaum I want to redo SICP) using TypeScript. Previously I used Python, but I would like to explicitly type every declaration. Would you suggest a better language than TypeScript? for such course..
C#, of course!
C# top waifu

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