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1:00 PM
That's like, what.. every python programmer right there in a nutshell?
 
@FlorianMargaine document.body.className = document.body.className;
 
dunno if that's enough
 
@Neil are you talking to me?
 
@Cicada3301 I'm not talking to you, I'm talking about you. There's a difference
Nothing wrong with being a python programmer. Lots of people are. It's just, you know.. not for everyone. I don't swing that way.
 
@Neil ... I never used python... and I don't have precise thoughts of how a programming language should be... just rumors over the internet said javascript is tecnically not a programming language
 
1:02 PM
let's not do that again
 
@Cicada3301 Technically speaking, even CSS3 is a programming language.
 
you don't even know why it's not a programming language
 
@Miszy yes
 
@Miszy No
 
@Miszy technically speaking, CSS3 isn't even a thing
 
@FlorianMargaine it's an interpreted one, and some say that's not 'fair'
 
I agree, let's get rid of CSS
at all
 
@copy @FlorianMargaine CSS3 is Touring Complete
!! wiki Turing completeness
 
@Miszy The Gods of Wikipedia did not bless us
 
LOL
 
1:03 PM
turing complete != programming language
 
@FlorianMargaine Technically speaking, this is a tautology.
 
@dystroy thanks for recreating it, I will muddle something together shortly.
 
In computability theory, a system of data-manipulation rules (such as a computer's instruction set, a programming language, or a cellular automaton) is said to be Turing complete or computationally universal if it can be used to simulate any single-taped Turing machine. The concept is named after Alan Turing. A classic example is lambda calculus. Computability theory includes the closely related concept of Turing equivalence. Two computers P and Q are called Turing equivalent if P can simulate Q and Q can simulate P. Thus, a Turing-complete system is one that can simulate a Turing mach...
 
Conway's Game of Life is also Turing complete
 
1:03 PM
@GNi33 CSS is fucking awesome!
 
no, it's bad
 
@KendallFrey Yeah, we can argue about what is and what is not a programming language.
 
The mov instruction in an x86 cpu is also Turing complete
 
Totally makes sense to me.
 
It's worse than bad, it's a horrible abomination and it deserves to get replaced by JavaScript
 
1:04 PM
@GNi33 Which on the other hand deserved to get replaced by something better.
 
@Cicada3301 even C is an interpreted language, so I don't get your point.
 
I remember life without css.. then I remember css and I become happy again
 
@copy it can branch?
 
@Miszy yes, I'd go for Ruby on Rails or Erlang
 
@FlorianMargaine since when?
 
1:05 PM
@KendallFrey since forever
gcc interprets C and transforms it in machine code
 
@GNi33 bad workman always blames his tools :D
 
@FlorianMargaine that's what I heard... C is interpreted?
 
@Cicada3301 Actually JS can be interpreted or compiled. Crankshaft in V8 compiles JS. We had this discussion before here. Like two days ago?
 
@mikedidthis read it.... medium.com/cool-code-pal/1f6430781393 ... read it!
 
@Miszy yes... but some wheren't there
 
1:06 PM
@GNi33 I'd love to mix Haskell with something readable.
 
@mikedidthis It might be a little hard to read and transform as both the HTML and the CSS are generated :\
 
@KendallFrey No, but the fact that it can do address arithmetic is enough
 
@Miszy APL?
 
@Miszy and neil still complains
 
anyway my point is, this is a stupid argument. It's not the fact that an implementation interprets or compiles down to machine code that makes or makes not a programming language
 
1:06 PM
@FlorianMargaine No, it just parses it. An interpreter actually runs the code.
 
@KendallFrey yeah my bad
but there are C interpreters anyway
 
@GNi33 :D
 
@GNi33 I did, seems like a troll article
 
@FlorianMargaine it was you who asked me if I knew why... I would have stopped... anyway, I agree on closing the argument
 
@mikedidthis no shit, sherlock... :D
 
1:07 PM
@FlorianMargaine real proper ones?
 
@Cicada3301 yeah, and you clearly don't know.
38
A: Is there an interpreter for C?

Adam DavisThere are many - if you narrow down the scope of your question we might be able to suggest some specific to your needs. A notable interpreter is "Ch: A C/C++ Interpreter for Script Computing" detailed in Dr. Dobbs: Ch is a complete C interpreter that supports all language features and ...

 
@FlorianMargaine I told you it's just what I heard
 
@Cicada3301 then form your own opinion
 
@dystroy its ok, I will make it work and then explain what I did and work on the implementation with you
 
@Cicada3301 Stop guessing. Start reading. :)
 
1:07 PM
@Miszy :P
 
@Cicada3301 (I hope I didn't miss some conversation part). I don't suggest you write a wiki application (that's boring if you don't want something different from mediawiki), simply that you install and use mediawiki or a different application
 
@FlorianMargaine I have no idea... I'll make my own opinion when I'll now how this stuff really works
 
@Cicada3301 Anyways, I don't think JS is good as a first language because you can easily learn bad style if you don't use quality resources.
 
> California Style Sheets are a standard
hahaha
 
@Miszy Miaou
 
1:08 PM
> California Style Sheets are a standard, meaning there is a group of people at W3Schools who come up with new properties (like border-radius and box-shadow) every year.
hahahahahahaha
 
@Miszy well... you saw my code... not really good in style...
 
@FlorianMargaine What's that ?
 
hehe
 
@Miszy my aim was for java, but couldn't find any easy tutorials on how to start
 
3 mins ago, by GNi33
@mikedidthis read it.... https://medium.com/cool-code-pal/1f6430781393 ... read it!
 
1:09 PM
@Cicada3301 I complain?
 
@Cicada3301 Oh no, that's terrible choice.
 
@Neil yes... you said I'm a python coder
 
I was helping you. You seemed to want to know what would be a good starting language, so I suggested one
 
@Cicada3301 C++ to learn the basics, Haskell to learn what functional programming is and then JS ;)
 
@FlorianMargaine makes me want california raisins :D
 
1:10 PM
> This Node code takes up only 2 lines and there are 0 spaces.
 
@Miszy I didn't knew at the time... I just wanted to make mods for minecraft... but then found a whole new world
 
the Node code... haha
 
@Miszy my hours spent in sitting in a corner thinking have done the job instead of c++and haskell I think
 
@Miszy I would never teach a beginner C++
 
@FlorianMargaine I don't get it.... Drunken humor ?
 
1:11 PM
@KendallFrey Why not?
 
@Miszy but I'll have to learn them some day
 
@dystroy I didn't get it either, troll article.
 
@dystroy yeah, troll
 
@dystroy it's just absolutely stupid, so... drunken humor fits quite well I guess
 
@Cicada3301 I believe one day you'll learn that programming language is just a small detail. Idea is far more important.
 
1:12 PM
@Miszy It's a huge and complex language, and the OOP is just not where it should be
If you want to teach Haskell afterward, you might as well stick with C, and forget about OOP
 
@Miszy that's why I sat in corners... building the code for it and learning a language is just a way to express that
 
@KendallFrey I said C++ for the basics. Types, loops, conditions, functions, strings, iterators. :)
 
I think JS is a great language to learn with
 
@FlorianMargaine Hahaha
 
@dystroy wow, miaou looks really good now
 
1:13 PM
@KendallFrey If you have a good tutor.
 
@Miszy C++ is bloated. Why do you want to learn this to beginners?
 
@Miszy there are in Js too.. aswell as objects, but they're not necessary, so why is it so bad?
 
anyone compiled node.js on a rpi?
 
@rlemon I installed go instead
 
I feel like this is taking WAY too long
 
1:14 PM
@rlemon Better not wait around for it
how long?
 
2 hours +
 
@FlorianMargaine Because it's popular and easy for the beginner. Also: If one cannot build a simple application with C++ because he finds it too complex, then he should be done with programming at all. IMHO.
 
@rlemon I started two years ago but it's still compiling now
2
 
I am using a Beagle Bone Black.
 
@rlemon yeah, come back tomorrow
 
1:15 PM
it is slightly beefier than rpi
 
@Miszy wat
 
@FlorianMargaine If you can't get basic C++ then you're a terrible programmer.
 
@rlemon node compilation on rpi takes ~10h from experience iirc
 
fuck...
 
1:15 PM
@Miszy no, you're wrong
unless basic C++ is C, in this case you can just learn C
 
@FlorianMargaine C is terrible language. C++ is much better.
@FlorianMargaine I don't want to learn about pointers, manual memory allocation, (void*) and all that low-level stuff.
 
@FlorianMargaine c++ and C are very different.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Exactly.
 
@Miszy it's not low level - it's just very unsafe ^^
C++ is just as low level - it's just saner.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum yes, but the non-complex stuff is basically the C subset.
 
1:17 PM
It's too bloated and quirky though.
@FlorianMargaine not at all.
 
loop, conditions, functions...
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum C++ can be as low level. But also can be higher level :)
 
@Miszy I personally find pointers simpler than references, smart pointers and god knows how many ways of referencing objects in C++
 
sorry, but yes
 
= learn JS :P
 
1:17 PM
@FlorianMargaine in C++ my loops are:
for(auto& elem : iterable){
    // that's a reference and an iterator - neither in C, the whole construct is not in C
}
 
Pointers are an evil, but a necessary evil
 
Or I do for_each and pass a lambda, another two things I don't have in C ^^
 
mama told me it was rude to point ...
 
Not to manage shared pointers etc.
 
@Neil But not C-style pointers, rather std:: pointers, right?
ARC and all that stuff.
 
1:18 PM
It's so important in understanding the inner-workings of a computer that you can't not learn it
 
@KendallFrey pointers are unsafe. Pointers might be 'simpler' but using a naive and simple tool to solve a big problem is not always the right way.
 
@Miszy C-style pointers are more important, but if you're going to code a lot in C++, then you also learn smart pointers
 
Beginners don't want safe code, they want code that makes sense.
 
@Neil C-style pointers are of none importance to beginners.
 
@KendallFrey C pointers don't make sense.
 
1:19 PM
Of course they do
 
If you learn to code with C pointers, you'll have to unlearn in order to make serious programs
 
No, they don't - the fact they're easier to rationalize doesn't mean that they make sense given the problem.
 
At least, more than the alternatives
 
No type safety, meaningless const, nulls all around. Seriously - all these are non-issues in C++
 
@dystroy I wouldn't teach a beginner C in the first place
 
1:20 PM
@Miszy That's like saying that knowing how to perform long-hand division is not important for a student wanting to become a mathematician
 
@KendallFrey Exactly. C++.
 
Not to mention proper exception handling, classes, templates... it's really a long list.
 
I would use JS, because the barrier to entry is so low
 
Yes, there are calculators, but you're sure as hell going to learn how to do long-hand division
 
@KendallFrey :D
 
1:21 PM
Java teaches you strict typing
 
@Neil That's bullshit analogy.
 
@Neil do you know long division?
@JanDvorak s/strict/broken and meaningless/
 
@JanDvorak Java is too boring and Java teaches you how to build complex class hierarchies that you won't want to maintain.
 
@Miszy Then tell me why a programming student shouldn't learn pointers
 
@Neil that is like saying that to sleep you need to know how to create a bed as yours... do 1 month babies do it?
 
1:22 PM
@Neil because pointer arithmetic is abomination
 
@Neil In order to drive a car I don't have to learn how the fuel is made. Unless I want to be a car engineer.
 
@Neil they should - it's an important concept - but not as a first language.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum That's my point!
 
Everybody should know how C pointers work very soon, but mainly as academic knowledge
 
Wow carrying a conversation with all five of you at once
 
1:23 PM
We're talking first language here. Pointers are not important at all.
 
@Miszy I was not under the impression we disagree at any stage in this conversation. The only difference is that you and I both probably know C++ and @Neil probably never used it for anything out of school :P
Otherwise, he'd know it's very different from C
 
@Miszy So according to you, a programmer understanding pointers is as important as a car engineer understanding how fuel is made? I diverge
 
I'm sure trying to prove things with analogies will lead you nowhere
 
@Neil I'm just saying that you don't have know how pointers in C work in order to learn your first programming language.
 
Or at all.
In a lot of areas - you can be a good developer and have no idea what pointers are.
 
1:24 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum One day you'll want to know - when time comes :] As academic knowledge for example.
 
You need to understand references vs values but that's it
 
here noone wants to give up with their ideas... even if someone proved the other logically why it's incorrect... we won't reach anything other than cheese is tasty... should we continue? XD
 
@Miszy I won't get into the details about whether or not it is better for a programming student to learn it in their first language or afterwards, but I definitely think it is important to learn
 
@Cicada3301 Hi! Welcome to the internet.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum XD
@BenjaminGruenbaum we're not simply internet users... we're internet builders... we should be different from the rest of people
 
1:25 PM
@Neil You can make better applications without knowing what C pointers actually are. They're abused and overused all the time. Reference and smart pointers - that's more than enough for you.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum That would imply you have very little idea about how the cpu is running your program..
 
Honest Question : How do you bring in young programmers the feeling of what is efficient if you don't teach them approximate ideas of pointers, code jump and so on
 
@Neil That's why you never use a compilator. Only ASM. Full control here.
 
Can you drive a car without knowing how it works? Yes, but it's one thing to drive a car and it's another to call yourself a profession on the subject
 
@dystroy you give them chocolate every time they do it well
 
1:27 PM
@Neil If you are driving for the first time you don't need to know how it works. That's my point.
 
@Miszy We're not disagreeing on that point.
 
I feel that the reason my numerical optimization libraries I made in java were as fast as C code (back in 1998 - about...) was because I coded them as I coded C
 
@Neil you have no idea how the CPU runs your program.
The only one here who has the slightest idea of how it actually happens is @copy because he bothered building an x86 emulator
And even what he knows is very very far from reality.
(A lot of extensions etc)
 
it's true we have no idea on how it really works but it might not mean that the approximate models we have aren't useful
 
Summing up: Pointers are not important for beginners. You don't know how CPU runs you app anyway. When you are no longer a beginner, you will probably want to know what pointers are. C and C++ are very different languages.
 
1:29 PM
I've build CPU emulators, but they were all very basic.
All with very limited command sets, no real FPUs and no real things. I didn't even implement basic things like branch prediction, ram line caching and such.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Fine, if you want to claim we're all ignorant of how a computer works, at least we can still say we know how a pointer works, which seems like a fairly fundamental concept
 
@Neil do we? Do you know how pointers work internally?
What asm it translates to and such?
 
If you think it's not important, that's your opinion, but it doesn't change the fact that what you consider irrelevant is still something that I think every programmer should know
 
And I have no idea what a pointer even is...
 
@Neil I absolutely agree that every programmer should know what pointers are... I don't see where I implied otherwise?
I even said they should, here:
9 mins ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
@Neil they should - it's an important concept - but not as a first language.
 
1:32 PM
Then we're all in agreement here
 
@Cicada3301 Don't worry about that for now. Focus on learning some basic things :)
 
@Miszy googlin' that
 
In fact pointer are also useful as a metaphor/design pattern now, taken as "the unique address of something which makes it efficient to fetch it and defines object equality"
 
@Miszy like a link to another variable?
 
@Cicada3301 you're also, not a programmer ^^
 
1:35 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum js, html, css, and ruby?
 
@Cicada3301 a direct "link" to a physical address in the computer's memory.
@Cicada3301 you don't know JS, come on :)
 
@Cicada3301 You should not care about that now. It's a "link" to place in a memory.
@Cicada3301 Do you know ruby?
 
@Miszy k, got it right
@Miszy the basics: it's really similar to js
 
@Cicada3301 no it's not
If you don't know what blocks are, you don't know ruby ^^
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I said I know the basics... as... the bare basics...
 
1:37 PM
@Cicada3301 I don't know Ruby, but I know it's very different from JS. ;) CoffeeScript would be more similar, syntatically speaking.
 
@Cicada3301 then you don't know JS or Ruby... you're learning them.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum I know how to build them... I don't think any of us 'knows' js
 
@Cicada3301 I 'know' JS.
 
@Cicada3301 I think I know JS to some extent.
 
You can't really say you know a language until you've got a year's experience under your belt using it professionally
 
1:38 PM
@Cicada3301 I read ES5.1 specs, I code in JS on every day basics.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum like... every single thing it holds?
 
Can't speak for anyone else but generally people here tend to be quite competent.
 
@Miszy I use it to solve school problems... and some other stuff at home..
 
@Cicada3301 For sure I know much more than you do now.
 
@Miszy that's obvious
 
1:39 PM
I can't think of any other way to get node.js on this beagleboard without compiling it on the board :(
suggestions?
 
@Cicada3301 yes. "every single things it holds"
 
the package manager (opkg) only has 0.8 -> I need 0.10+
 
@rlemon And why do you want node.js in the first place?
 
@Miszy because I do
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum well... my compliments
 
1:39 PM
You can find something I won't know in JS for sure, but it won't be very easy :)
3
In Harmony I'm not nearly as good, read the spec several times but it changes very fast and I didn't use it enough.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum then you don't 'know' it... you're just very very good
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum What about something.Property(index) = value;?
 
@KendallFrey what about it?
 
@Cicada3301 This discussion is pointless IMHO :)
 
@Miszy as almost every discussion here....
 
1:41 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum Do you "know" it?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum very simple for a beginner, indeed
 
@KendallFrey what about it?
 
@GNi33 Thanks, you can use it now. There is already a very active private room.
 
@Cicada3301 No, that message has three four points
 
@Neil good.... point...
 
1:42 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum -_-
 
@KendallFrey I don't get it either - what are you asking about exactly?
 
guess I'm starting the build process and hoping it is done before I go home today
 
!!afk Lunch
 
@Miszy cya
 
3 mins ago, by Benjamin Gruenbaum
You can find something I won't know in JS for sure, but it won't be very easy :)
 
1:43 PM
@KendallFrey if you're trying to say that's always a LHS or RHS ref problem I suggest you think when about when it's not :)
 
I use that syntax all the time.
Microsoft FTW
 
You use .Property all the time? That's not how you capitalize JS :P
 
you are missing some $$
i$.Property$._$.$[$,$,$.$] = $($foo);
 
@rlemon oh man.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum No, I use .Property(foobar) = value
 
1:45 PM
@rlemon looks like Pekta's code
 
(joking, don't hit me)
 
The properties happen to be capitalized in the objects I use
 
@dystroy got punched in the face
 
1:46 PM
needs more jQuery
 
@Neil saying that on stack overflow.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum If i can recreate any built in mechanisms with what I know can I say I know js?
 
@Cicada3301 you didn't get that reference
 
@dystroy nope...
 
function jakeWeary(selector) {
   var wrap = 1000, ret = jQuery(selector);
   while( --wrap ) {
      ret = jQuery(ret);
   }
   return ret;
}
gotta make sure that element is wrapped yo
 
1:48 PM
@rlemon jake weary LOL, that's what my mom understood when I was talking to my father about it
 
@rlemon didn't you mean
ret = jQuery(ret);
?
 
yes
 
@Cicada3301 implement an Array.prototype.reduce shim. If you use the known one - I'll know.
 
yes I did
damn copy paste
 
@rlemon failed fail
 
1:49 PM
you fail.
 
@rlemon That's also good when your code performs better when you fail
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum if you tell me what it does I can probably recreate it
 
Haha
@Cicada3301 I'll show you an example
!!> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7].reduce(function(x,y){ return x+y; });
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum 28
 
!!/tell Cicada3301 mdn reduce
 
!!> ["Badger","Mushroom","Snake"].forEach(function(a,b,c) { b<1&&(b--);console.log(Array(c.length-b).join(a + ' ') + a); });
 
@rlemon "undefined" Logged: "Badger Badger Badger Badger","Mushroom Mushroom","Snake"
 
Honey badger doesn't give a shit.
 
@dystroy not impossible to reproduce only with ifs, strings, numbers, function() and operators
I only need those
!!afk dog.... 2 mins
 
1:53 PM
@Cicada3301 of course.
 
@Cicada3301 Then do it. :)
 
It's rather easy too, I just said you can't do it ^^
@Miszy he is 'afk dog... trying to copy shims and understand them ^_^'
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum hahah :D
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum nope... my dog needed to play with the ball... couldn't do it alone
 
@Cicada3301 So, how is your reduce implementation going? :)
 
@Miszy still not started it... and I don't think I will... the only thing I need to do is to prove anything can be done with what I said above...
 
@Cicada3301 You can't prove it.
 
@Miszy if I got someone to explain me the code of how js is interpreted I will be able to
@Miszy actually... I don't even need strings
 
> of how js is interpreted
@Cicada3301 You mean V8 source code?
 
1:59 PM
foldl        :: (a -> b -> a) -> a -> [b] -> a
foldl f z0 xs0 = lgo z0 xs0
             where
                lgo z []     =  z
                lgo z (x:xs) = lgo (f z x) xs
 

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