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9:01 AM
> I talked to a guy whose wife taught computer classes. At the start of her class, she had her students bring in a floppy disk and format it. This was roughly 1986 or 1987, so it was a good place to start. But at the beginning of the first class period, she was greeted by a technician who informed her that all the computers had been upgraded with hard drives.
> She thought that was great. So when class started, she told her students that they would use hard drives rather than their floppies. First step: format C:.
> After telling me this story, the teacher's husband laid all the blame on the tech who installed the hard drives.
 
lol
 
> A friend had a brilliant idea for saving disk space. He thought if he put all his Microsoft Word documents into a tiny font they'd take up less room. When he told me, I was with another friend. He thought it was a good idea too.
 
trolololo
users are getting dumber every day
then again, they just don't know how a file is stored in a computer
text + formatting metadata is \&

now, Shift+Delete will indeed save disk space - BOFH style, at that
 
9:32 AM
Teacher: "My keyboard is broken."
Me: "What is it doing to make you think it's broken?"
Teacher: "When I go to type my password it doesn't type it right. No matter what I type, it's always a little star."
Me: "Yes, it is supposed to do that."
Teacher: "Well, how does it know if I get it right or wrong if it's always little stars!?"
Me: "It displays the asterisks so no one else can see your password."
Teacher: "That is stupid. I hate Bill Gates."
 
Saving disk space is for noobs.
Hard disks can store a gazillion GBs these days.
@FredOverflow a whole collection of such conversations (not exclusively, though) is on clientsfromhell.net. :)
 
@FredOverflow I'd say the format C: thing would be r
er
reassuring from a user
given that it's the teacher giving this instruction though, facepalm
 
Drive letters suck.
 
If it were a user, one ought to be relieved that they continue to do the thing they've been told to unless told otherwise
 
Hi
 
9:39 AM
@KerrekSB yo
 
I heard that int-to-double conversion on x86 isn't natively the same as the C standard demands
C says "truncate", and x86 by default says "round"
 
I hope you won't be expecting an answer for that question from me, I just hang around here because there are people in the room. I know squat about C.
 
So allegedly that's an expensive operation, since the FPU mode has to be changed ad-hoc
 
@KerrekSB Is that also a joke? Why would rounding matter for int-to-double? Unless they have the same size.
Or did you mean double-to-int?
 
Sorry, I meant double-to-int
 
9:43 AM
ah
Well, how often do you need double-to-int?
 
So double x = .9; int n = x; requires a surprisingly large number of operations, as well as a pipeline flush
 
Friend: "I just set up the new computer I bought, but I can't get the keyboard to work."
Me: "What shape plug does the keyboard have? And what color is it?"
Friend: "It's round and purple."
Me: "On the back of the machine, there will be a small, round, purple hole. Can you see that?"
Friend: "I see a purple hole, but it's not the right one, because it says its PS2. I don't have a Playstation 2."
Tech Support: "Ok Bob, let's press the control and escape keys at the same time. That brings up a task list in the middle of the screen. Now type the letter 'P' to bring up the Program Manager."
Customer: "I don't have a 'P'."
Tech Support: "On your keyboard, Bob."
Customer: "What do you mean?"
Tech Support: "'P' on your keyboard, Bob."
Customer: "I'm not going to do that!"
 
hmmm
I'm in a bit of a pickle
 
How so?
 
Pickles are sour as fuck.
 
9:52 AM
I have a Function class, which is std::function, and another Function class, which is for representing functions at compile-time in metaprogramming
I mean, I put them in different namespaces, I guess that's what those things are for
 
And now you've got Koenig troubles? ;)
 
I don't have Koenig lookup
I just don't like it :P
 
Give it a different name.
MetaFunction or something.
 
hmmm
 
FunctionUsedForRepresentingFunctionsAtCompileTimeInMetaProgramming
Imma eat. See you guys.
 
10:07 AM
rofl
bb
 
Back am I.
Man.
AppleScript is more shitty than PHP.
 
mmm, and Wide is le awesome
been writing more specifications and I can't wait to write code
 
Never seen any Wide code. How does Hello world look?
daklang also sucks, btw,
 
10:22 AM
hello world
main() { Standard.IO.Output("Hello World"); }
 
Cool.
 
semicolon stupidity
 
heh
semicolons serve a grammatical necessity
and cutting them is a hell of a lot more trouble than it's worth
 
import io
weak main -> io::print("Hello, world!")
# In daklang :P
 
oh hai
@RadekSlupik No semicolons suck :P
 
10:24 AM
No semicolons ftw
Newlines!
 
I don't like languages that use whitespace as any sort of parse-help.
 
newline can serve as semicolon.
 
Yeah but newline is whitespace :)
 
weak main -> {
  io::print("Hello, world!")
  io::print("Foobarrrrr")
  return(42)
}
damn
 
@ScarletAmaranth whitespace is a stupid classification.
 
10:26 AM
Possibly, it doesn't change the fact that it, in my eyes, doesn't separate things nicely :P
 
nah
besides, in Wide, if you don't like the existing grammar, it'd be pretty easy to simply replace it
 
yah, right. Like you can hack C++ in Clang.
 
uh, not exactly
 
C preprocessor! :P
 
Wide provides the ability to create and manipulate your own types and shit from within the language
and load files at compile-time
so all you'd have to do is load a file, parse it, and create the objects
and if you cut certain operations from the language or gave them different grammar, you could go separatorless anyway
it's mostly stuff like increment and pointer ops which make it ambiguous
 
10:28 AM
Hmm I might considering using Haskell-like space-separated arguments. I like that.
 
I don't
it's le bad
 
I do
it's le good
 
@DeadMG I didn't say seperatorless, I said optional.
 
f x y, f(x, y) or f(x(y))?
 
if it's not there, read to next newline, if it's there, respect it.
doesn't seem that hard to implement to me.
 
10:31 AM
Hmm. Using Haskell style would make function-call-expr be defined as:
function-call-expr:
    expr function-call-args(opt)
 
it's not hard to implement, it's just not any better
there's no difference between "Push semicolon at the end of statement" and "Push newline at the end of statement".
oh, except "Push newline at the end of statement" can make you cry when it comes to quick lambdas
f(function(x) { return 2 * x; }); really doesn't need to be more than one line.
 
Allow both!
 
exactly
what part of optional don't you want to understand?
 
the part where it's better or useful whatsoever
 
Or just use newlines only for separation. f(function(x) { return 2 * x }) would be correct.
 
10:34 AM
it'll get rid of irritating typos
@RadekSlupik That would also be allowed in my idea yes.
 
get better IDE
 
In daklang f (pure (Integer x) -> 2 * x) :P
 
user784668
@RadekSlupik f (*2) :P
 
daklang is basically C with RAII, interfaces, pure functions, decltype and lambdas. :P
 
10:39 AM
so basically, it's like C++ but with the most valuable feature by far, templates, cut?
 
@RadekSlupik what's a pure function?
 
user784668
In computer programming, a function may be described as pure if both these statements about the function hold: # The function always evaluates the same result value given the same argument value(s). The function result value cannot depend on any hidden information or state that may change as program execution proceeds or between different executions of the program, nor can it depend on any external input from I/O devices. # Evaluation of the result does not cause any semantically observable side effect or output, such as mutation of mutable objects or output to I/O devices. The result va...
 
@rubenvb a function that doesn't have any side effects; it always returns the same result for the same set of arguments.
 
ah
 
user784668
@RadekSlupik In other words, all functions.
 
10:39 AM
why is that useful?
 
@Fanael Not those that do, for example, I/O
 
@rubenvb The compiler can do nice optimizations on them, like leaving them out if their result isn't used.
 
or depend on any function that does I/O
 
@Fanael False, think of rand(), print() etc.
 
Can't any decent compiler deduce side effects?
 
10:40 AM
@rubenvb Not all the time.
 
@rubenvb Not if the implementation of the function is hidden.
 
it's like type inference
you can infer 90% of types- but the other 10%, the compiler needs help
 
When a function is explicitly made pure in its signature, the compiler knows.
 
for example, where the implementation of the function is linked in at run-time.
 
something like constexpr then
 
user784668
10:41 AM
@DeadMG They're pure, too. They take the friggin' world as an argument, they do work, then they return new, modified friggin' world.
 
@DeadMG How do you print variables?
 
@Fanael There's no point to purity when you say "Might change THE ENTIRE WORLD".
oh, also, the world mutates itself from outside, so that's not even accurate
@FredOverflow Uh, main() { x := "Hello World"; Standard.IO.Output(x); }
 
No I meant like "Hello %s, you were born in %d" or something.
 
Does it make sense to provide a "tread safe smart pointer" that returns a temporary mutex locker from operator-> ?
 
main() {
    x := "Fred";
    age := 80;
    Standard.IO.Output({ "Hello, ", x, " you were born in ", age, "AD." });
}
@JohannesSchaublitb No.
 
10:44 AM
hmm
why not?
 
because you have no reason to believe that that is still safe
 
@DeadMG what's that language you are showing?
 
or remotely performant
@JohannesSchaublitb Wide.
 
hm
is it yours?
 
yes
 
10:45 AM
dynamically typed?
 
no
wtf you take me for
 
how does it know te type of "x" and "age"
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Inference?
 
10:45 AM
oh
 
@DeadMG What if I want to print an int in hex?
 
so is this illformed? x := 10; x := "lulz";
 
@FredOverflow What if you want to print it with German separators?
@JohannesSchaublitb yes
 
Also I didn't know Fred was 80.
 
10:46 AM
@JohannesSchaublitb Sure, just like in C++ auto x = 10; x = "lulz"; is an error.
 
I have a more detailed text formatting library
but I haven't gotten around to specifying it yet
 
what happens in if(a) x := 10; else x:="lulz";
what type does x have afterwards?
 
none, it's out of scope
 
Out of scope I guess.
 
10:47 AM
why are you asking these silly questions? C++'s type inference is pretty damn similar
 
can you give it a type explicitly?
 
also use "foo" not "lulz"
 
How about x := some_condition ? 10 : "lulz"?
 
@FredOverflow I cut that operator.
 
No conditional expressions? Nobody is gonna use your language ;)
 
10:48 AM
also 10 and "lulz" have no common type so the expression cannot compile even in C++
 
do you parse it by hand?
 
what the fuck, Johannes?
 
@DeadMG no templates but I have generics and concepts.
 
i mean do you use bison or the like?
 
yes, I parse it by hand. I also generate the machine code by hand. And I resolve all ambiguities with rand().
3
 
10:49 AM
@DeadMG It can in scala. val x = if (someCondition) 10 else "lulz" will be of type Any, if I'm not mistaken.
 
import io
weak main -> {
  x = "Fred"
  age = 80
  io::print "Hello, "; x; " you were born in "; age; " AD."
}
 
@FredOverflow You could do x := Any(); if (y) x := z; else x := w;
 
Oh, so you do have a common supertype? Or is Any more like boost::any?
 
ah
it's... a bit of both
I most assuredly do not have any Object or any bullshit like that
it's more like boost::any
 
10:50 AM
lol
 
you have implicit conversions
 
but I used my compiler magic so that you can use it as if it were dynamically typed.
 
"I am not Java"
 
is it a JIT or can it compile a static executable?
 
@rubenvb Damn right.
@JohannesSchaublitb wtf you take me for?
 
10:52 AM
@DeadMG I take you for the answerer boy
 
user784668
@JohannesSchaublitb Interpreted.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb JIT is the way of the future, isn't it? :)
 
JIT-compilation ftw.
 
10:52 AM
I offer a JIT but it's not the default.
 
but plz no LLVM JIT. it suckz ballz
 
but but with LLVM you can compile to JavaScript!
 
@JohannesSchaublitb how so? Please explain. :)
 
@DeadMG does it apply optimizations on the AST?
@rubenvb because it's more like "we memmap a.out into memory and then execute it!"
OK it has on-demand compilation of functions, but that's it :(
 
Oh, so it's missing the "JIT-optimize" stuff IIUC?
 
10:55 AM
High-level virtual machine
HLVM
 
as in, We know this run it will be faster to do blabla optimization for this function.
 
its "first compile just to run it" is hell as slow it seems to me :(
 
MacRuby is fucking fast.
Uses LLVM with JIT compilation.
 
@rubenvb yeah that is what I mean. and the "adaptive optimization for JIT" GSOC work hasn't been applied to LLVM or perhaps wasn't even started I have no idea :(
 
@Als Are you sure? Last time I checked, updating and reading a variable without an intervening sequence point was undefined behavior. — FredOverflow 11 secs ago
@JohannesSchaublitb Hell as slow? What is that, even slower than slow as hell?
 
10:57 AM
@RadekSlupik ohhh Ruby's native interpreter is slow I hear. perhaps it's that. I hear it executes the AST directly without even caring to transform it into bytecode first
 
@FredOverflow Like Slowpoke.
@JohannesSchaublitb CRuby is an interpreter, yes.
It suckz ballz, as you would say it.
 
@FredOverflow oh lol
 
Even JRuby is better than CRuby.
 
Ell
@JohannesSchaublitb I believe it got significant speed improvements after 1.9.1
 
10:59 AM
MacRuby is written in Objective-C and it's even faster than CRuby. xD
 
@RadekSlupik I hear that google folks tried to create a python impl with LLVM and gave up because LLVM JIT was too balling slow
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Maybe. Never used it directly. I don't care very much about performance.
I usually do desktop applications and it's fine as long as they don't lag.
 
Ell
@RadekSlupik and the startup time is small, of course
 
user784668
@JohannesSchaublitb That's true. It's so slow a Python interpreter written in Python is faster than LLVM JITted Python.
 
so MacRuby is good?
 
11:00 AM
@Ell My desktop applications launch within a tenth quarter of a second.
 
perhaps i shall take a look at it
 
@JohannesSchaublitb It's pretty good, but you need a Mac to run it.
 
@Fanael ohh!
@RadekSlupik youre talking about pppython?
or what was it called
 
MacRuby.
 
11:02 AM
MacRuby also compiles to machine code ahead of time, but I'm not sure how it does things like eval.
 
Ell
is gzip the compression and tar the archive? or other way round?
 
eval is le dumb
 
Write to file, then require. Hey, I didn't use eval! xD
 
@Ell yeah. with file.tar.gz, file.tar is the un-gzipped archive.
 
@Ell yup.
 
Ell
11:03 AM
right kk ta
 
Tar stands for "tape archive".
 
Ell
never knew that o.O
 
Also 7z > gzip.
 
Ell
all I need is the archiving
 
I dislike how RAR is proprietary. You need a license to have your programs produce RAR files.
 
11:04 AM
@RadekSlupik you mean lzma or lzma2 or xz.
RAR is stupid. I have absolutely no idea why it is so widespread
 
i take it ruby is dynamically typed and dynamically lookuped?
 
Ell
I didn't know it was?
 
@rubenvb The best compression algorithm is obviously MD5.
23
Q: Reversing an MD5 Hash

amirI have passwords stored in a database using md5, and was wondering if there was a way to reverse the hash to email the user's password to him in case they forget it. If that's not the most appropriate method, what is the appropriate method for dealing with a lost password?

 
Ell
@RadekSlupik I was just about to say soemthing like that :L
 
MD5 is fucking lossy.
 
11:08 AM
Morning, everyone!
 
Ell
morning :)
I better start writing a c++ .tar library!
 
@Ell why? The C stuff not good enough?
 
@rubenvb It's in C. Q.E.D.
 
wow looking at te code of MacRuby, I see that my own LLVM-powerd JIT/compiler is way more ugly coded
i guess that's because I started writing it having written no single LLVM code before. so it's not too bad i got it working :)
 
Here is an LLVM tutorial but I don't know if it's good: llvm.org/docs/tutorial
 
11:11 AM
why would you even want to? I haven't seen anything about Ruby that's remotely interesting
 
It includes static and JIT compilation.
 
user784668
@rubenvb LZMA is the compression algorithm, LZMA2 is the container, XZ is a common filename extension for that container.
 
they seem to run it interleaved with compiling the code. and have a boolean "canInterpret" that I guess tells them that some code isbetter interpreted over the AST than compiled
 
Ell
what do you think of doing a .tar library to the API of boost.filesystem?
 
Damn. Hexapoda is fucking slow.
 
user784668
11:15 AM
@Ell Makes sense and can be useful.
 
Loading and transferring a page of 166 bytes takes 34ms.
 
Jon Skeet - ~21k answers. Hah, where does he find the will?
 
He's bored at work.
 
user784668
@DomagojPandža He's a SO bot.
 
Ell
@Fanael where would I start? there are no virtual functions etc, so just re-implement it all using the existing headers?
 
11:20 AM
This looks so ugly.
void printWelcomeMessage() {
  std::cout <<
#include "welcome_string.hpp"
  ;
}
 
@Ell Fork boost.
@DeadMG It defines UGLY as http: :P
 
How clever.
 
@RadekSlupik Not far from the truth :Đ
 
Ell
11:21 AM
@RadekSlupik fork boost, ehh?
 
URLs are valid syntax :D
 
True.
 
You backed off!
Because I am intimidating!
Isn't it?
 
You were talking about syntax, I was talking about semantics.
 
aaand markdown is a failiure
 
11:23 AM
Markdown is poorly implemented on chat.
Writing IDEs is fun.
Until you get to syntax highlighting, which is a real fucking pain in the fucking ass.
And line numbers.
 
Sure, as long as you don't try to do fancy stuff like intellisense, that's when it gets annoying.
 
And code folding.
@ScarletAmaranth libclang!
 
Ell
ahh what format should I use for my game's maps? Each map consists of a 1 to 6 regions, each of which contain 1-6 images
should I just .tar it all? or what? o.O
 
Writing IDEs is fun until you get to the part which actually makes it an IDE. :P
 
I'm going to write an IDE.
 
Ell
11:28 AM
haha
 
@RadekSlupik Oh you think
 
Hmm first a name.
@Cicada damn!
 
Ell
call it cleff
 
Slupik Codeteria
 
Syntax
 
Ell
11:29 AM
Cleff IDE ^(tm)
 
The editor is the hardest part of all.
 
Well duuh, all the fancy string manipulations must be pain.
 
No, the UI is fucking difficult to get right.
 
You mean layout / design ?
 
No, non-glitching line numbers, syntax-highlighting that doesn't lag for large source files. Such things.
Perhaps the easiest part is the plug-in interface. xD
I'll write it in Ruby.
 
11:36 AM
@Cicada Mawning
 
oh hai sehe
 
11:58 AM
^ XP support in Visual C++ 11 (that is, 2012)
 
no way
 
it's been linked like, 999999 times :P
 
bahahahaha
 
There was a big brouhaha about it, so it doesn't surprise me they support XP now.
 

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