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11:02 AM
@Rerito The music is not bad. The voices on the other hand...
 
roslyn is ridiculously nice
or maybe it is R#, can never tell
 
user1804599
"1st of December" is trending topic.
 
@Morwenn Vocoder seems to be the norm in the mainstream music nowadays
 
user1804599
So what's interesting about 1st of December?
 
@Rerito Yep, for some reasons. Anyway, take that, you've earned it:
 
11:05 AM
It's the first day of suffering in December.
 
user1804599
@Morwenn Nice Piet program.
 
user1804599
I should ask a Piet question on Stack Overflow soon.
 
user1804599
2
Q: Object oriented Piet, What would the OO look like?

FeohI really like the Piet programming language, so I am wondering how would one go about creating an object-oriented design in Piet ?

 
@GregorMcGregor Not really. But it's less toxic for being a fruit.
 
@Morwenn Flash just crashed. Guess I've got a guardian angel
 
11:09 AM
@Elyse It reminds me of another language used from time to time on PPCG. Or was it the same?
 
user1804599
@Morwenn Yes.
 
@Morwenn Still better than Lartiste
 
user1804599
Here is hello world in Piet:
 
user1804599
 
> des wunderbarres de rir put1
@Rerito Absolument.
 
11:28 AM
how much research and/or work would be required to be a codementor like Bartek?
 
You just need to have opinions and yell really loud.
 
@Morwenn Shots fired
(And possibly, drunk)
 
I can't be drunk yet, I have an interview in two hours.
 
why do you want to be drunk?
 
Why not?
 
11:34 AM
@Morwenn depends what the interview is for really, doesn't it
 
@thecoshman Exactly, if it's a mock interview like an SSII or some shite like this... Getting there a bit drunk might even be a good training :p
 
@Morwenn there is no upside
 
@thecoshman Not really. I have to drive to get there.
@JohanLarsson Not being able to drive is an upside when you don't like to drive.
 
there are other ways to solve that ~problem
 
@Morwenn I never have to drive hehehe
 
11:38 AM
@JohanLarsson Right, being high works too.
 
is the set exhaustive now?
 
Simpler: not owning a vehicle
 
@Rerito Haha, it doesn't always work. Not owning a driver license works better.
 
or perhaps do things you like to do
 
@Morwenn ah, driver there early and drink in front of them. You can be generous and offer them some, and it shows you are a nice honest person who wouldn't hide something like drinking
 
11:41 AM
@thecoshman Come on, I need to drive back home too.
 
@Morwenn because joy riding isn't a thing?
 
Nah, anyway, today will probably be no-alcohol day.
 
@Morwenn nah, just stay there and sleep it of
 
It will be my first interview ever for a C++ job. I can't miss that :o
 
@Morwenn Client final ou presta ?
 
11:45 AM
@Rerito Client final.
 
@Morwenn well good luck :D
 
(Je kiffe cette dénomination de "client final" qui s'impose partout au passage)
 
@thecoshman Thanks :)
 
@Morwenn cool, what kind? brest?
 
@Mr.kbok Yes, near Brest. A medical imaging company.
 
11:48 AM
@Morwenn fingers crossed
 
@Morwenn image processing right?
 
@Morwenn Oh, might be people from telecom bretagne there
 
@Mr.kbok Yep.
 
Break a leg then :)
 
> StandardError: An error has occurred, all later migrations canceled:

Mysql2::Error: Table 'email_addresses' already exists: CREATE TABLE `email_addresses` (...)
Fuck off.
 
11:50 AM
I'm not really worried. Even if I don't have the job, there will be other opportunities.
 
@Morwenn there's always money for whores
 
Also, yesterday I've been called by a 4th company for a Python job in Mayenne that I already declined several times.
@thecoshman Haha, I'm not even one :D
I guess I could but that's not really my thing.
 
@Morwenn oh it was just a passing remark, think nothing of it :P
 
Thinks nothing.
 
big butts!
 
11:54 AM
Oh, I see.
Fucking migrations are not atomic.
WTF
Why
I bet the answer is MySQL
Sigh.
 
ergh, I tried to make this process in nice small chunks, so that I can build it up slowly, but it's next to impossible to nicely migrate 'stuff' from one jenkins job to the next. Well, there are plenty of ways, but all seem shit slow for some reason. Time to just do it all in one big job
oh, nearly lunch time :)
 
@thecoshman "At least my mom is not on the cover of Crack Whore Magazine" :p
 
I got the anwser about those dependency directory names
some super dumb headers require some other header to be in a specifically named "include" directory
by #including "../include/something"
 
Jesus fuck, finally fixed this bullshit. Had to disable the migrations that were already done but somehow didn't count as done so it tried to redo them and fail.
@Mr.kbok lol
Also, ew, ".." in #includes.
 
it's a third party so I can't do anything about it except modifying the package and submitting another one in the central repository
by the way, you can just copy cl.exe with c1, c1xx and c2.dll and you've got yourself a portable compiler
 
user1804599
12:01 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I do that all the time.
 
user1804599
#include "../src/gc.hpp"
#include <catch.hpp>
 
user1804599
!!!!!
 
it's probably bad
 
yeah but you're bad
:P
 
I only use reative includes to include headers that are implementation details.
 
Ell
12:04 PM
How do I get out of bed?
 
okay so I have a thousand engines for a total of 600 gigaflops
 
@Ell I found the best way is rolling out and hitting the floor
 
maybe I can build the project on the computation grid
 
So who will be at MeetingC++ this weekend?
 
not me :(
 
Xeo
12:13 PM
@ArneMertz o/
 
> In game development, the first 90% of a project is a lot easier than the second 90%.
Hmm, I don't get the joke
 
Xeo
too true
@Jefery May be a reference to the "90% of the project take 10% of the time. 10% of the project take 90% of the time" thing
 
@Jefery when you're almost done the rest turns out to take you at least as long
@Xeo in for a beer on Friday evening?
 
Fine but wouldn't that be:
 
or Thursday. Going to arrive late tho
 
12:16 PM
> In game development, the first 90% of a project is a lot easier than the second 10%.
 
Xeo
@ArneMertz @Andy and @sbi will be there too
 
@Jefery In terms of correctness, yes. But that would ruin the joke
 
Xeo
@Jefery nono. It's perfect as it is.
 
Yeah, I don't get the joke
 
@Jefery in terms of estimated time to completion it's 90/90 ;-)
at least
 
12:18 PM
infixr 4 :>
data Tuple as where
    E :: Tuple '[]
    (:>) :: a -> Tuple as -> Tuple (a ': as)
woah
this is pretty amazing.
 
@Xeo yeah finally meeting some loungers in person :-)
 
You are your motherfucking operators
:P
 
I are operators?
 
@Jefery the point is that the person changes the estimate of completion in the middle of the sentence
 
@Jefery lol, you're such a badlet
 
Xeo
12:19 PM
@BartekBanachewicz as where?
 
@milleniumbug I see, thanks.
 
@Xeo as ~ xs :)
 
well explained
 
Xeo
oh, right :D
 
> This is one of my personal favourite Haskell data types. It's an extensible tuple indexed by a list of the types of the things inside it. Structurally, tuples are heterogeneous linked lists. When you add something to the front of a tuple, you add its type to the front of the list of types.
 
12:20 PM
Fuck operators
They ruin everything
 
I don't know why "regular" haskell tuples aren't expressed like that
 
Xeo
That was pretty much the default implementation of a tuple in C++03
 
@Jefery oh shaddup you badlet, operators are unimportant here. Stop focusing on syntax.
 
Syntax is important, despite what you people like to tell here
 
yeah we know you'll cry if you don't get the syntax you want
 
12:22 PM
Syntax is what you end up reading and parsing with your brain
 
go back to rubby
 
@BartekBanachewicz Oh, a variant array of variant arrays?
 
If syntax doesn't matter, go read some Perl or Brainfuck
 
@MartinJames It's a Generalized Variant List, if you will.
or something
I'm not sure yet but it's beautiful
 
@BartekBanachewicz The syntax I want doesn't matter
 
12:23 PM
@Jefery agree
 
Whether some syntax is readable or not matters
 
@Jefery except when I don't like some syntax
@Jefery lmao
1 min ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
go back to rubby
now I'm being serious.
 
I've never began any project in Ruby, what the heck are you even going about
 
you're having rubby-level arguments here
whether something is readable or not is a matter of personal preference
3
 
12:24 PM
wat
 
your tutorial on monads was useful @Bartek.
 
stop assuming everyone thinks and reads like you
@edition oh cool!
the context one right?
 
@BartekBanachewicz yes.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I thought that was the premise for using written languages in the first place
At least the "reads like you" part
 
@Jefery dyslexic people can still read
 
12:25 PM
@Xeo Hopefully - I'm still half dead
Damn winter conferences
Actually no, damn winter
 
@edition please do remember that it's merely one viewpoint though. There are many equally valid approaches to monads.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, so what?
Why are we even talking about dyslexic people? Are you dyslexic?
 
Then why bring it up?
 
No Im nto
 
12:27 PM
To illustrate that different people perceive symbols differently.
Take Kanji.
 
user1804599
unnest is so cool.
 
user1804599
It's like, an unaggregate function.
 
@BartekBanachewicz So what's your point?
 
user1804599
# select unnest(array[1, 2, 3]), 'foo';
 unnest | ?column?
--------+----------
      1 | foo
      2 | foo
      3 | foo
(3 rows)
 
user1804599
<3
 
12:29 PM
It's not like you design the syntax of your language with dyslexics in mind.
 
@Jefery I can read the code example perfectly fine. You're not used to it enough and you're projecting your inabilities on the idea of custom operators.
@Jefery Apparently you need to do it with jefery in mind
 
lol
Yeah no shit: after working with that kind of syntax for months you get used to it.
I bet you can get used to brainfuck as well.
 
@Jefery hey you're making progress
 
That doesn't make it any more readable.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes where do you find unicodes?
 
12:31 PM
I couldn't care less about your perceived quality of "readability"
 
I know
 
it's utterly nonsensical and pulled out of thin air
 
wat
 
and in the end always boils down to your personal preferences
 
That's not true
 
12:32 PM
> I NEED + FOR MATRICES OR ILL CRY
> - Jefery, 2015, not-so-long-ago
 
That's called Strawman. Look it up.
 
no, that's called being a hypocrite, or, more to the point, making the whole issue (again!) about your personal preferences
 
Richard Strawman
 
All I said was that + for matrixes is a well defined operation, while .+. or whatever operator you proposed was not and is the reflection of the limitations of Haskell in that field.
 
12:33 PM
All I see is
 
There's nothing about "personal preferences" in that thing I just said.
 
I like trains.
 
> Some operators I'm familiar with are fine, others I'm not/don't like aren't.
 
well, at least there hasn't been any exchanges of derogatory insults thus far.
 
thus far
 
12:34 PM
@Jefery By saying "limitation of Haskell" you lost all your Bartek points
 
@BartekBanachewicz More like "Some operators are well known and used in specific contexts. Inventing variations of those because the language doesn't let me use the ones I should be using, shows how bad that language is in that regard."
 
blah blah blah haskell so bad doesn't give me the syntax I want
you're boring
 
It's not the syntax I want. It's the syntax everybody agreed upon.
 
yeah right totally.
 
What? What syntax is mathematically defined for matrix addition?
 
12:36 PM
Someone give me a bigger hammer.
 
What
 
@Jefery Everyone in Haskell ecosystem agreed upon Haskell operators.
 
I'm not in the Haskell ecosystem?
Also agreeing with a feature doesn't mean agreeing with every case in which the feature is used.
 
@Jefery I bet'cha there were some mathematicians that didn't like + for matrices are first
 
@JohanLarsson What do you mean?
 
12:38 PM
@Jefery bring that up with the library authors
 
So what?
Why are you moving the goalpost?
 
@Jefery So that. The majority of Haskell people are fine with using operators and that's not gonna change. If you hate it so much don't use Haskell.
 
Ell
Jef don't bother
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes He probably means code points
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes If I want the \uXXXX for '°' how do I find it and know it is the most correct. Besides from asking you.
 
Ell
12:38 PM
It ain't worth your time
 
Again, your perceived ideas of readability and "agreed upon" are worth literally 0
 
Again, it doesn't matter what my ideas of readability is.
 
except you're pushing it as universal truth
 
What matters is that certain operators have meanings, others don't.
 
When Bartek is not stirring shit up, Jefery is :/
 
12:39 PM
what about choosing a language for its features that work, as is?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Tell me where I said something based on my personal preference in this discussion.
 
Ell
I would prefer it if someone made me breakfast
 
In mathematics, the Laplace operator or Laplacian is a differential operator given by the divergence of the gradient of a function on Euclidean space. It is usually denoted by the symbols ∇·∇, ∇2, or ∆. The Laplacian ∆f(p) of a function f at a point p, up to a constant depending on the dimension, is the rate at which the average value of f over spheres centered at p, deviates from f(p) as the radius of the sphere grows. In a Cartesian coordinate system, the Laplacian is given by the sum of second partial derivatives of the function with respect to each independent variable. In other coordinate...
 
Xeo
@Ell I simply don't eat breakfast
 
12:40 PM
I bet you knew that one well, right?
 
@Ell You can skip it :P
 
Ell
Yeah nor me, its bad really
 
Breakfast is awesome
 
@Ell But you are getting Bartekfest.
 
@BartekBanachewicz How is this relevant?
 
Ell
12:41 PM
The moist impotent meal of the day
 
The wot? :D
 
5 mins ago, by Jefery
It's not the syntax I want. It's the syntax everybody agreed upon.
how do people agree upon things? By proposing them first.
 
I like Haskell. I like the flexibility of creating your own operators other than +, -, *, /. But using .+. for matrix addition shows that the language is limited enough to not let you use + unless it satisfies Num. Which was the example we were arguing about.
 
Ell
xD
 
@Jefery It's the library that's limited, not the language.
 
12:42 PM
@BartekBanachewicz So wait, are you saying that you are proposing .+. for matrix addition outside of the Haskell world?
 
I feel that this room would benefit from a Haskell Prohibition rule. Immensely. So many frivolous discussions would be destroyed with it.
 
@Jefery I think it would be a very good idea.
 
@BartekBanachewicz How so?
@BartekBanachewicz Are you for real now?
 
@Jefery Num typeclass is borked vOv
@Jefery yes.
 
Yeah, ok. I think I'll step away for a while.
 
12:43 PM
So yeah, have it your way: Prelude is limited enough to not let + for matrices.
Amazing.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Then define the correct Num typeclass. Let's see.
 
@ElimGarak I think the discussions would still be there. People need them. Haskell is just one of the ways to get them
 
Or whatever is the typeclass that for you should have + in it.
 
@Jefery I wouldn't bother with Num, I'd use Semigroup or something.
 
Ell
What is the type of (+)? Mum a => a -> a -> a?
 
Xeo
12:44 PM
> Mum
 
Or some sort of Ring perhaps.
 
@Ell lol
 
@AndyProwl If only we could get people discussing C++ as vigorously / ferociously. :D
 
@ElimGarak Like that never happened :D
 
Other classes from this set are perfectly fine.
 
Ell
12:45 PM
@ElimGarak this is a solved problem in c++ I suppose :P
 
@ElimGarak hey, why the hell is std::string mutable?
 
Group is fine, Semigroup is fine
 
is that ok?
 
Xeo
@Jefery What Bartek's talking about is a single type-class that encompasses all the uses of + (I think?)
 
Ell
(^ that should do the trick)
@edition why wouldn't it be?
 
12:45 PM
@ElimGarak meh it's cool
 
@Xeo inb4 "but I want to add floats to vectors"
 
@Xeo Yeah, I'd like to see it.
@BartekBanachewicz I don't think that's allowed in math either, so no.
 
@Ell he said vigorously / ferociouly :D
 
Well, good for you. Would you like fries with that? Seriously, you've been very entitled lately, Joffrey.
 
@Jefery lol "allowed in math"
 
12:46 PM
@BartekBanachewicz That's again strawman, by the way.
 
you're p hilarious
 
Ell
@edition I was hoping "it's a solved problem in c++" to get someone/BartekBanachewicz to disagree with me
 
@JohanLarsson If I know the name I search for it on wikipedia or on Google if there's no WP page. I use vim-characterize as the fallback.
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz That's where the definition of SemiGroup etc comes from, though. :P
 
you're treating math as if it was ancient knowledge set in stone that never changes or adapts
 
Ell
12:47 PM
That's neat man, my phone suggests BartekBanachewicz
 
What
 
@Ell when you type what?
 
@Xeo yeah addition appears in many classes/structures
you'd need to find the one on the bottom I suppose
 
Ell
When I type bar
 
@BartekBanachewicz The problem with Semigroup is that it is, well, wrong.
 
12:48 PM
Whether math changes or not is irrelevant. What matters is what are the rules right now for writing math.
 
notation for math really depends on the paper author
concepts, too
 
There are many semigroups that can be made with naturals.
 
If in some future things will change or "adapt", then you should reflect those changes in your library as well.
 
Ell
Yeah, tale derivatives, there are 3 common notations already
 
Xeo
+ and * for the associative operation, e.g.
 
12:48 PM
There is however, only one possible Num interpretation.
 
@milleniumbug If you manage to get that into @Jefery's head I'll buy you a 6-pack of beer
 
some call 0,1,2,3,... as Natural numbers, some 1,2,3,...
 
Ell
Different depending on the context
 
@milleniumbug that's the tabs vs spaces of maths
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Haskell solves that with newtypes
 
12:49 PM
Haskell has type seduction
3
 
@BartekBanachewicz Which is terribly awkward to use.
 
Xeo
Better than type suction.
 
true dat
 
I'm not sure about addition in modulo arithmetic as well
 
@milleniumbug Not really. There are some grey areas in math, sure. But even then there's a common convention for those grey areas. And you can always specify those if they are ambiguous.
 
Ell
12:51 PM
My prof says Haskell is falling apart at the seams
 
This is not the case with addition between matrices.
 
@Ell ah university profs, always full of real, good, applicable knowledge
@Jefery because?
 
I use Haskell to chat up ladies at the club.
 
I'm explicitely saying "I am using .+. to mean matrix addition"
 
Because there's no other contending operator?
 
12:52 PM
So what?
 
So it's confusing to everybody except you.
 
@Jefery maybe at first vOv. If it helps disambiguate, it's good.
 
@ElimGarak Eyy bby do you know what's functional, strong, and safe?
 
Programs aren't math papers.
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz look at you generalising :P
 
12:53 PM
@Jefery + surrounded by a circle is a common thing
 
Ell
You haven't even asked why
 
@BartekBanachewicz If I were to use .-. to mean addition and .+. to mean subtraction wouldn't that be confusing to you, even though I explicitly specified those?
 
@Jefery Oh god.
 
@Jefery there must be a reason to do that
 
operator vOv
 
12:54 PM
@milleniumbug To mean something other than matrix addition.
 
Oh, so now we are judging reasons?
 
math papers regarding cat theory often use ⊕ for example
@milleniumbug yeah that
 
49 secs ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@milleniumbug To mean something other than matrix addition.
 
sigh
no you know what I don't care enough
sorry, maybe some other day or something
 
12:55 PM
that's how most arguments tend to end lately
 
lol ok
 
@Jefery There is a reason pretty much every book/paper on math has a introducing section that introduces notation and concept they are using.
 
it's such an absurdly useless discussion
 
Sure you don't
 
Because otherwise these details do become ambiguous
 
12:56 PM
You guys could've fapped twice and been much happier in the time it took you to realize that.
 
I have a 24 hours burnout time after fapping.
 
@milleniumbug inb4 "but some operators are well known and I'll cry if I don't get them the way I've always knew them"
it's the same BS all over again
 
my bank password is restricted to only 6 digits
 
That limits the amount of fapping to 7 times a week.
 
why would they do that
also hi good morning/afternoon/whatever
 
12:57 PM
wanking over having that retarded + for matrices as if that was literally the most important thing when writing computer programs
 
I want a Hoogle console client
 
@BartekBanachewicz Why do you always picture me on the verge of crying
 
@milleniumbug ghc-mod can certainly do that
@Jefery because that's how your statements come out.
 
@Jefery Jefecry
 
Not really.
 
12:58 PM
If instead of wasting time on those discussions sat your lazy ass down and wrote some haskell code we might talk about something way more interesting
 
@BartekBanachewicz Never said it is. I just said it's an example of how Haskell is limited.
 
yeah fuck it is, whatever
 
v0v
 
if it makes you feel better I can admit it's the most limited language on the planet
 
Nice conclusions. You guys should make a paper out of it.
 
12:58 PM
Oh noes, someone said Haskell is limited.
We're screwed.
 
@ElimGarak Yeah, a toilet paper
 
is Haskell useful for machine learning applications?
 
So we can all relate to it
 
"Don't tell me Haskell is limited or I'll cry"
Yeah, the "crying" narrative is really nice
I should be using it more often
 
12:59 PM
morning
 
@Jefery For some people it certainly is.
 
@BartekBanachewicz It is important because that operation shares a lot of characteristics with the corresponding operations on naturals, integers, reals, and complex numbers, and pretty much all real vector spaces.
 
Ell
bjawn
 
Badlets always blame the tools.
HTH
 
I'm not blaming anything.
 

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