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14:00
Im trying to include GL shader files... I guess I'd lose syntax highlighting because they aren't separate files but its not terrible
@Ell you mum is damp, but I make her moist
buying books on technical subjects is hard
Ell
Ell
oh m8 thats rank
@TonyTheLion and risky, they'll be out of date far too soon
@TonyTheLion buying books on technical subjects is hard, let's go shoppi... oh, wait
14:01
how to figure out which beginners book on Financial Derivatives is best.
@TonyTheLion "Financial Derivatives For Dummys", sadly the only book on the topic that is ever read
what are Financial Derivatives?
@AndyProwl basically financial instruments traded that are based on some underlying asset
ok, I'm too dumb to understand that
don't worry, it's something so complex not even the people dealing with them really know what they are
it's like insurance on debts... I think
14:04
you mean like C++?
in contrast, C++ is perfectly specified
@thecoshman no its not
well if you know all that, why do you need a book?
basically you have some thing you want to trade, like oil for example, instead of trading actual oil, contracts are made up that represent that oil in some specified quantity, and then these contracts are traded on the financial markets
just like stocks are
In finance, a derivative is a contract that derives its value from the performance of an underlying entity. This underlying entity can be an asset, index, or interest rate, and is often called the "underlying". Derivatives can be used for a number of purposes, including insuring against price movements (hedging), increasing exposure to price movements for speculation or getting access to otherwise hard-to-trade assets or markets. Some of the more common derivatives include forwards, futures, options, swaps, and variations of these such as synthetic collateralized debt obligations and credit default...
14:06
> a contract that derives its value
^ what does that mean
it gets its value from
but what is the value of a contract
@AndyProwl basically it's not directly buying/selling stock but e.g. buying the option to buy/sell stock later
the contract representing the thing you're trading, gets its value from the actual thing
3 mins ago, by Andy Prowl
ok, I'm too dumb to understand that
14:07
it's basically worthless on it's own... I think
ie if you traded oranges, the contract representing those oranges gets the value from the actual oranges
I don't understand what "gets the value" means :(
@TonyTheLion but you don't trade oranges, you trade contracts about oranges
contract = oranges.getValue()
@ArneMertz yes
@AndyProwl the value gotten from the actual thing, like the price value
14:08
basically meta-trading
the only thing I can see is how meta that can go
so like... the cost of an orange my change all the time, but I might sell you a contract to by/sell oranges... and I might sell you that contract for X, and that X is 'derived' based on the oranges...
ie how much its worth
@TonyTheLion what about john hull
@AndyProwl extremely meta
14:08
so the value of that contract will change as the value of oranges does... but not as much?
@ArneMertz it feels to me like someone invented value/money from where there was nothing =/
I just don't have brain for this stuff
@Mr.kbok which one is that?
it's like listening to a completely unknown language
@AndyProwl just give all your money to tony and hell make you rich
14:09
> hell
:P
Ell
Ell
has alex.m gone for good?
nice typo
@Ell donno
@Ell alas.m
@AndyProwl The value of a contract is the amount that is expected to be paid.
14:09
@thecoshman the value of the contract will change as the perspective of value changes for oranges changes :P
@Mr.kbok ah
that suddenly makes it more meaningful
@ArneMertz iow the expected value?
Since all financial contracts are settled over cash
user1804599
> Japanese scientists: "Whale meat tasty and healthy '
14:10
@TonyTheLion yeah
I was going to look for the link
so I sell someone a contract to trade some oranges, and they pay me some money for that, hoping they will be able to either sell it on, or use that contract to make profit on trading of oranges
o_o it's bat shit insane
user1804599
> The scientists compared two groups of a thousand men, wherein one group ate one whale per month, and the other group three.
Whale: 'Japanese scientists meat small and sick'
@thecoshman nah, it more simple
Example: if I have an option to buy oranges for 5$ it is not worth much if oranges are at 4$ currently. But if we expect oranges to cost 50$ tomorrow that option is worth a lot, because I can use it tomorrow to generate 45$ from basically nothing
14:12
... when do I get some orange juice though?
@Mr.kbok ah ok
@thecoshman You agree with someone to buy their orange at market price in one year. The value of the contract is the market price of oranges in one year. You estimate the value of the contract by estimating the price of oranges then
wtf Japan! Stop killing whales you bastards. http://www.sciencealert.com/japan-stuns-world-by-announcing-it-will-resume-whaling-in-antarctic-ocean-despite-ban
Finance is a sick game
It's not a sick game :/ it's an essential part of the economy
14:13
I find it interesting
@Mr.kbok is it though? is it really?
hence why I would read a book about it
Wikipedia, job done
@thecoshman nah, there isn't much on wikipedia
@thecoshman How would you buy a house if there was no loans? How would you create a company without equity?
@Mr.kbok I dunno, it looks sick to me
14:14
The length of wikipedia articles is proportional to the interest in the topic
@Mr.kbok our current economy is built on top of it, but the question whether there could be a different economy based on a different financial system
the game of making money from number juggling
Ven
Ven
So, what modern c++ book should I get? 'cept for scott's
@Mr.kbok tell me one thing that fucked up because people waited rather than risked credit?
@ArneMertz like not screwing people over with credit?
@thecoshman yep. the exponential nature of interest is one of the things screwing up pretty much everything
user1804599
14:16
@Ven C++ Primer by Stanley Lippman, Josée Lajoie, and Barbara Moo
@Elyse is the primer updated for current C++ yet?
user1804599
No, for C++11.
user1804599
But C++14 is similar to C++11 enough.
user406009
C++14 only had minor changes.
14:17
Depends how you define 'minor'
2
man this raw string literal thing is pretty cool
exactly. Function return type deduction and generic lambdas are not really minor to my taste
would be even cooler if you could get the compiler to just insert the contents of a local text file though
@ArneMertz generalized constexpr too
Ven
Ven
@Elyse I can't find a link to anything recent anyway
user406009
14:19
@Prismatic there are tools for that.
@AndyProwl yeah haven't played too much with it tho
user406009
They create header files from other text files.
@ArneMertz Neither did I tbh :P
@Lalaland There are tools for converting a text file into normal string literals too
Doesn't mean it wouldn't be convenient to have it built in
Ven
Ven
@Elyse EFARTOOBASIC
14:20
@AndyProwl only saw a nice little compile time sudoku solver. xD
@ArneMertz Done with constexpr? Or template wankery?
@AndyProwl constexpr (mostly)
user1804599
Yummy, a chocolate letter.
interesting
@thecoshman dude you really want to wait 25 years before buying a house?
Ven
Ven
14:22
Well, no book recommendations then :\
user1804599
@Ven books suck anyway.
Ven
Ven
@Elyse no need to remind them everyday
@AndyProwl valpo.de/?p=190 is a post about it - the guy presented it in the Hamburg C++ user group, and we could reduce some template stuff in favor of constexpr
@Mr.kbok no, I also don't want to have to pay as much as they do cost, and why is that? because twats kept allowing more and more money be asked for them
Once one person realised they could double the asking price, they all did it
@ArneMertz Will check that out, thanks!
14:26
@thecoshman I'm talking about a new house, not an flat. The prices are driven by the cost of the workforce and materials. That has nothing to do with finance.
@Mr.kbok complete bollocks
houses cost way more than they actually cost to make, there is a HUGE profit margin
That margin exists because credit allows it
The cost of all the labour and materials is also vastly inflated because they know they can ask for that much, because credit facilitates it
I remember South Park's episode on the financial crisis as very illuminating
Thanks to the ease of getting credit, people can many houses and start renting them out, which only exacerbates the problem
that's BS
The worse offenders are the rich that buy buildings they then leave empty, artificially inflating house prices.
14:29
there isn't any monopoly on building houses
if you get such a huge profit margin, why isn't everyone running around building houses instead of pissing off at computers?
@Mr.kbok an important question
because it takes money to make money
Why is "fuckboy" or "fuckboi" an invective? It does not seem that offending.
You also have economies of scale, it's cheaper (per house) to have some guys build an entire estate than it is just one house.
14:31
same question. if building is so productive, why bother with the stock market?
@Mr.kbok because that also makes money
breaking news, there are many ways to make money :O
> aaand it's gone
@AndyProwl summed it up rather well
@wilx lots of insults dont make a ton of sense
@Mr.kbok I didn't say there was...
14:32
@thecoshman if the profit was superior, investors would go there. The stock market isn't yielding much, by the way
> weell that's fantastic, a really smart decision young man! We can put that check in a money market mutual fund that will reinvest the earnings in the foreign currency accounts with compounding interest aaand it's gone
@Mr.kbok stock market is about what is publicly floated, which not everything is.
floated?
I suppose "anyone can buy"?
14:37
@jaggedSpire @Borgleader awwww, he's unsure of his direction it seems.
@Prismatic unless you're a total moron
@TonyTheLion or that sand is wet. Eeek
@Mr.kbok private companies are not 'floated', they are not on the public stock market
publicly traded, iow
aye
but any way, you are missing the core point
Are you implying the stock market is inherently less efficient?
14:42
no, I am saying I don't like credit in general and consider it to lead to bad things. I'd rather we didn't have such a thing, or at least a lot less of it
You are saying if people couldn't get credit, they wouldn't be homeless or live in favelas but instead the houses would get cheap enough that they could buy one
If you insist on reducing it to such simplistic terms, then yes
yeah well it's dumb
If no one can afford to pay 'that much' for something, then it stops being charged at 'that price'
That's just not true.
Until recently no one could afford electric cars
Result: no one has electric cars
No one can afford satellite internet? No satellite internet.
14:46
Most of the reason we saw that insane price bubble was because people could get credit, so were willing to give in to the insane demands. Notice how once people stopped getting credit, prices dropped. But nah, that must be because someone flooded the market with lots of houses.
@TonyTheLion d'awwww :3 day.brightness++;
That has nothing to do with credit.
Also without a credit you're homeless
@Mr.kbok no?
So you think house prices increased, then dropped, so steeply... because... people wanted to pay more?
14:48
@thecoshman If people can't get credit they rent instead, so the guys with the capital buy the goods at a price adjusted for rent price
@TonyTheLion :D I'm getting ready to rip your face off!
Result: poor people are poorer, rich people own the entire city
@thecoshman I will still love you <3
Once poor people's income lowers, they can't afford rent so they get kicked out with nothing
@TonyTheLion (that was a panda quite btw, I just didn't like to start it with ":D )
Xeo
Xeo
14:50
@TonyTheLion dat floof tail
You just can't burst a bubble by reducing liquidity. You make it worse.
> that was a panda quite btw
what does that mean?
@TonyTheLion quote, sorry :P
@Mr.kbok well obviously we can't just flick a switch and reverse 'the system'
@Prismatic what dat?
14:54
Apologies for the belated response
@thecoshman space rocket thing
All good?
@Prismatic no shit ¬_¬
@Mr.kbok Public beheading of the powerful, urban pillage and mayhem!
@MadaraUchiha Seems all good right now, we had a flag fest earlier though
@Mr.kbok but can you not see how we would be better of if we had a general policy of "can't afford that now? wait". Do you honest believe that the ease at which people can get credit, credit they may not be able to afford, can lead to things costing more; admittedly, sometimes things become cheaper because more people can 'afford' them.
@thecoshman There isn't such a "system" you talk about. The rules of economy are the same from the point where you decide to use currency and have people move around. Even communism have it.
@thecoshman Typically what happened with the subprimes crisis
Laws about checking credit affordability have toughened though
Getting a mortgage now is much hard then it once was
@Rerito There's a huge gap between "regulated housing loan" and "lying about contract value to your client"
14:59
@TonyTheLion I still think that, in principle at least, there is nothing too wrong with things like 110% mortgages... I mean, if banks think that person can pay of enough of that money (ie that 10%) then let them take the risk.
@thecoshman There's ease and possibility. I don't think you should be able to lend money for a sports car. I think you should, for your children's education.
@thecoshman Well you have to put up a certain percentage of the price of the house yourself nowadays.
@thecoshman Sometimes your ability to pay back depends directly on your ability to loan: buy a car for going to work, get some training, buy housing, etc
@Mr.kbok Though this is sound, I find it ethically wrong: you're allocating the loan based on a judgement of values "child ed OK, sport car not OK"
@Rerito how is that ethically wrong O.o
15:04
FUCKING SHIT
it's whitelisting a number of use cases that are good for both you, the economy, and the loaner
stupid PATH on Linux set in one program and not set in another
user406009
@Mr.kbok What if the sports car isn't that much more expensive than the other cars?
user406009
And you need a car to go to work anyways.
user406009
That sports car might be a better purchase because you can use it for entertainment as well.
15:05
Loans should really be about the ability of the borrower to pay it back
@Lalaland if you can find a sports car that is nearly as cheap as a regular car, be my guest :p
@TonyTheLion No, because then you end up only borrowing to rich people.
If someone makes enough money to pay a loan for a sports car, then why not lend them the money. Its when you lend money to the guy that is likely to fail to pay back that you're in trouble.
@Mr.kbok No you end borrowing to people that can afford to borrow
@Mr.kbok I just find it discriminating though bviously borrowing money to buy a lambo is stupid af
@TonyTheLion I mean lending, sorry
@Rerito It's not discriminating if it's based on usage. It's discriminating if it's based on the borrower (which is what Tony suggests, you nazi :p)
lol
its the borrower's ability to pay back
15:09
@TonyTheLion The guy who possibly won't pay back is the one who really needs the loan.
what's going on
@GregorMcGregor pirate thinks all banks should dissapear and loves communism
I'll possibly be broke af at the end of the month :)
@Mr.kbok that's a bit simplistic
but I can understand the sentiment
It's a lovely day today.
15:10
ok, seems to be working for now
@Mr.kbok ah but you're looking at it from the perspective of who needs the loan, more than who is qualified for it
I like buying food.
@ScottW My main budget hole is the food... Coz I eat a lot to get jack3d
Ven
Ven
@ScottW "b-but the steam sales!"
@Rerito pics
15:10
@TonyTheLion See it that way instead, what are loans for? Please don't answer "lending money"
I was looking at it from the institutions perspective, they obviously don't want to lend to people who are at high risk of defaulting. That loses them money
asking for a friend
@TonyTheLion Indentured servitude, bby
@ScottW how much is your videogame collection worth
Give all the pretty girls loans
15:11
@ScottW 30 eggs a week bby
@TonyTheLion that's okay, you can just increase the rate or ask for collateral.
do you have any rare stuff worth lotsa$$
@GregorMcGregor There are actually pics of me squatting and deadlifting on my facebook (private ofc)
then why am I not granted access to them yet
I mean my friend
meh I'll she'll just google your name and hope for the best
@Mr.kbok helping someone buy something
but loans are still a business, because if they weren't, it would be charity.
banks loan money to make money
15:14
@TonyTheLion You have govt loans, too
I need to lose a little layer of fat and I'll look epic
I still cant believe how expensive some of these games can get
^ apparently over 10k
@Rerito you're just teasing now
@GregorMcGregor Exactly hehehe
@ScottW starwhore
@ScottW wow that's more expensive than a whole night with your mom
15:19
I had to renew almost all my "wardrobe" that was the hardest shite financially speaking
@GregorMcGregor .. but much safer.
@MartinJames Well done!
you all deserve stars!
getting stars is easy
15:20
just mention cock
@TonyTheLion Didn't go as planned did it? :p
Off course
user406009
I think we should just all agree to not star anything with the word penis or cock in it.
2
because its Lounge
user406009
It looks poorly on us as a room.
15:21
planning anything here is neigh impossibru
@Lalaland Penis is a natural thing, there's really nothing wrong with it, but we're all so immature that we giggle about it like little girls
2
if stars represented giggles by little girls, you'd see just how immature Lounge is :P
last time we did similar thing with vaginas, we almost got the room frozen
also true
it was mainly because it was in the room title
Meh, you're pessimistic. This penis/vagina thing is a reminder to put away the broomstick of our arses
not to say the Lounge isn't a great place, just we are about as mature as a 5 year old at times.
Ven
Ven
@TonyTheLion you seriously consider the lounge to be a great place? serious q.
15:29
May 29 '14 at 16:29, by Jefffrey
I will fight this "professionalism" disease as fiercely as I can till the day I die. — Cat Plus Plus May 16 at 23:37
Best quote 2014
@R.MartinhoFernandes Everyone has to eat, so you might as well make it enjoyable while you're at it.
That's what spices are for. A lot of them also have various health benefits, but for me that's secondary.
@Ven Yes, I have had lots of good times in here, I have learned a lot and I have got to know a lot of very nice and smart people :)
^ same :)
libgdx has such nice documentation
straight up inspiring
Ell
Ell
libgdx project setup sucks
for me
15:38
Tea time
My desk is a real mess
@Mr.kbok oooh, by 'loan' you mean 'borrow'
@TonyTheLion you've also met a load of right twats :D
@thecoshman yea you being the primary one :P
so I get suspended for some cursewords... excellent
15:44
am I a moist twat, or a damp twat?
was it n i g g e r
@GregorMcGregor tsk tsk, naughty naughty
I really can't think what would be considered a bad swear word here...
Java maybe...
@GregorMcGregor it was something along the lines of: fucking cunting flags
You know what else is naughty bby?
15:45
@thecoshman you're more of a humped dry twat :P
@TonyTheLion oh my
@ScarletAmaranth I use deceptive formatting to avoid flags
look it works
just use some lube and carry on
@GregorMcGregor fuck that
15:46
I wish you could see when your own posts were flagged...
I don't fucking care; fuck people who have nothing better to do than randomly fucking cunting flagging random fucking stuff
@orlp sounds like rightfold
@ScarletAmaranth Were you bitching out loud at work on your project like "meeeh what a hell, fucking cunting flags", or you mean suspended here?
@Rerito somebody flagged pirate, i said fucking cunting flags, I got suspended :)
For some reason someone put a bounty on one of my questions.
15:47
@Morwenn which which which
Have to deal with UI shite at work, in Java
I want to die :'(
@Morwenn I bet it's just for the badge
@ScarletAmaranth lol, owned
@thecoshman With 134k reputation?
@Morwenn do you have a tool to visualize a sorting network?
15:50
@thecoshman pretty sad if someone has nothing better to do than flag randomly
@thecoshman what do you mean my loan?
@Rerito If you die now, then it means Java UI will be the last thing you do in life.
@orlp I have a tool to draw sorting networks with LaTeX.
@Morwenn gief
You can find the relevant include in the same directory.
15:52
@Mr.kbok cba to see exactly what you said, but you were saying 'loan' when you mean 'borrow'. Loan is when you give money to someone else, you might 'get a loan', but you would say that you borrow money.
@Morwenn I assume that the multiple connections on one line is done by you manually to visualize what could be done in parallel?
@EtiennedeMartel does he still have to do that Java ui thing?
@orlp Yes. It isn't meant to be smart, only to be pretty in the end.
@thecoshman If he dies, he'll never get to not do that.
@EtiennedeMartel Well, the little death could do hehehe
15:54
Fear is the mind killer.
@EtiennedeMartel worth it

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