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7:03 PM
@JohanLarsson That wasn't aimed at you or anybody else in particular--just "lowlife" seemed like an interesting twist on "highlight" to me.
OTOH, I guess if you want to assume the mantle of "syntax lowlife", I probably can't stop you.
 
@JohanLarsson one annoying thing about gitter seems to be...you get a billion notifications for every message ever said
 
47
Q: RFC: Better chat @mentions

balphaStatus: 50% - Solution is proposed, nothing's implemented yet. Problem Statement Pinging (@mentioning) users in chat is problematic. It is possible to accidentally ping several users at once. In some cases, this cannot even be prevented at all. There is a possibility to shortcut @mentions (no...

Ahahaha
Look changes to chat
And very important ones
 
user1804599
I'm bored.
 
this just in! we still dont know what they are!
 
user1804599
Alien city lights.
 
7:14 PM
it seems flagging got a bit worse today
 
> a bit
 
@JerryCoffin np my friend
 
is anything I'm doing here illegal, undefined or w/e? coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/95153538a79ddb41
seems to be the copy via const ref that screws things up...
 
You appear to be trying to compile C++ with MSVC
 
I have a feeling that one of the flaggers was sino. All 3 of his accounts that I'm aware of are banned. Including the ones with less than 20 rep.
 
7:26 PM
I saw a student (not a student of mine) obviously struggling with some TMP, and I asked if he would like some help figuring out what he was doing wrong, the look on my face when he said; "this is pretty advanced, I bet you can't help me".
I almost got offended.. how can I make myself look like the TMP-geek that I am?
what the fuck.
to the one who just flagged my message; duck off.
 
@FilipRoséen-refp "I bet you can't help me", not even think?
 
oh sorry, I mean to write that with an F
 
@FilipRoséen-refp lol
 
@melak47 I helped him though, so the joke was on him.. but I got really annoyed with his attitude to be honest
@melak47 vc++ and constexpr is not a good match, or to put it in another way; templates and vc++ is not what you wanna do.
especially not with constexpr
 
:D
I dub thee...constexpr uncertainty principle?
 
7:30 PM
seriously though, who is this misfit who keep flagging messages as offensive?
 
The laffman
 
@melak47 if you are talking about vc++ you can rephrase that to *"vc++ is shit"
 
@FilipRoséen-refp I don't think that's a very good title for a bug report :/
 
@CatPlusPlus is that a pun on coshman?
 
7:31 PM
@CatPlusPlus then I have no idea how to interpret your statement :-(
@melak47 if you are really thinking of filing a bug-report for vc++, just go the typical M$-dev way of reporting things and name it "constexpr doesn't work, please fix" and include a 3 000 line testcase.
there's a reason their bug-tracker is not as accessible as it should be
 
@FilipRoséen-refp I'm trying to find out how many bugs I have to file before they ignore me
 
@melak47 what @CatPlusPlus said, they ignore the first one - unless you put in some praise on how well other things work
 
nah, they've fixed some of them. (allegedly)
 
@melak47 also start a question on SO where you provide feedback for their compiler, and link to that in your bug report.. that should make them happy!
 
7:34 PM
lol
won't know until the next compiler release, so....2017? ugh
 
@melak47 do you mean "fixed" the way they "fixed" std::tuple without having variadic templates?
 
I don't think I can hang in until then
 
no offense to the team working on the standard library implementation, they are working magic with such limited toolset
 
@FilipRoséen-refp fixed as in they said they fixed it :p
 
@melak47 I wish that worked for me too. You receive a bug-report that you really don't wanna fix, and you just mail people back saying that it is fixed but that they have to wait a few months/years for them to see the result.
that'd be great
 
7:36 PM
lol. :(
 
not that I ever write buggy code.. *looks across the room and silently walks away*
 
so far I've filed 6 bugs for VS2015/VC++14. 2 fixed, 2 wontfixed, 2 open
 
What is the won't fix?
 
@melak47 what is the won't fix one?
 
The compiler
 
7:39 PM
stahp cat :p
 
Send a frown! That'll show them
 
The other is linker
Or maybe Intellisense
 
Win32
 
@FilipRoséen-refp one's not a bug so they won't fix it, the other one is...well a defect I guess: void(*fptr)() noexcept = []()noexcept {}; doesn't work because the standard doesn't explicitly say lambdas can convert to noexcept function pointers...
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm honestly impressed by how much you can say with so little, your average message length must be about 3-7 words
 
7:41 PM
Brevity souls etc
 
@melak47 the standard (N3290) is actually quite explicit on the subject, the conversion function that allows for a lambda to be (implicitly) converted to pointer-to-function shall have the same return-type and arguments as the lambdas function
it doesn't say anything more than that
 
@melak47 that reply looked good until he said that you should cast it...
 
:p
it even needs an ugly two step cast
first cast the noexcept away, then cast it back. awesome!
noexcept_cast<> 2015
 
@FilipRoséen-refp First world problems
 
7:53 PM
Sob.
 
> My favorite programming language depends on the task at hand. For quickly shaking out an algorithmic idea, I've been using Python lately. For data structures, I like Java. If it's got to run fast, then C. I tend to avoid C++ because if I'm going to write an object-oriented program, I want to use a real object-oriented language, and C++ ain't it.
 
@melak47 since you are reporting bugs, please report this one for gcc 5.2.0 -> auto lmbd = [] (auto y) { decltype (y, lmbd) x; }; lmbd (1); (it crashes, and I'm too lazy to report it)
 
@MarcoA. That's what Cat says too
 
@FilipRoséen-refp I'm too lazy to figure out where and how to report bugs for gcc :p
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ they must be the same person then
 
7:57 PM
It makes me wonder what kind of powerful OOP I've been missing out on
 
AbstractObjectFactoryObject
 
Java is alright.
 
@melak47 gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla, now you have no excuse. you should also include auto lmbd = [] (auto) { decltype (lmbd); }; (which is accepted)
 
Only thing I don't like about it is special-casing rules for primitives.
 
Java is like C++ without the speed
 
7:58 PM
I don't like Object, null, and weird generics about Java.
 
@FilipRoséen-refp ughh I'll have to figure out their etiquette and stuff
 
@Mikhail They couldn't be further apart
 
@melak47 just do what you do when you report bugs for vc++, but keep your common sense and write proper reports
 
why can't you report it?
 
@AndyProwl because I'm tired, and somewhat lazy
 
7:59 PM
> now you have no excuse
 
I don't even have a 5.2.0 I can reproduce it with :p
 
@AndyProwl he said he didn't know where to report them, now he knows
;-)
@melak47 I bet the behavior exists in earlier version too, I think I accidentally stumbled upon that exact thing a few months ago
 
What's the use of the fucking step through debugger
if it's just going to goddamn crash
 
Did they fix =default in MSVC 2015?
 
@Mikhail yeah I think so.
 
8:06 PM
Dayyyum TCLP is sexy
 
@JerryCoffin Are you saying C++ is faster than C in the general case?
 
@caps It probably is, yes
@Prismatic You drugged that dog with corn!? CALL THE COPS!
 
8:22 PM
@набиячлевэлиь what's that
 
@melak47 A header-only library for parsing commandline arguments
 
@набиячлевэлиь Lol sourceforge.
 
user1804599
Yay!
 
@Nooble GitHub mirrors
 
user1804599
Hello world program and logging module now parse and type check. :D
 
8:33 PM
get on my level, skrub
@elyse That's great!
 
> ANSI C++
Sounds old for some reason.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Latest copyright notice is from 2007 v0v
 
If you have, say, a vector<T>. Then you can use push_back to push Ts and emplace_pack back to in-place construct Ts bypassing constructor arguments. Does it make sense to use emplace_back to pass a T? I suppose it works because it in-place constructs T using the copy constructor. But I'm not sure it it's a good or bad thing to do.
 
@StackedCrooked Rule of thumb: use emplace_back always
 
8:38 PM
Really?
 
It's inherently superior to push_back
 
I suppose emplace_back can help to avoid unintended temporaries.
 
@caps Let me rephrase: if you're in a situation where speed matters, you can always write C++ that's at least as fast as anything you can do in C--and at least within anything approaching practicality, you can frequently write C++ so it's faster. Where you don't care about speed, it's probably easier to use C++ in ways that are slower (but are easier to maintain, use less code, etc.)
 
@JerryCoffin Ah, okay. That completely fits with my preconceptions about those two languages, yes.
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked copy or move ctor
 
user1804599
8:45 PM
But what do you think push_back does?
 
user1804599
9:02 PM
Compiler output: imgur.com/a/iDMd8 :D
 
hi
 
hi
 
user1804599
hi
 
@elyse That's quite a nice cimpoler (output) indeed!
Does it support verbibols or funcitons?
 
what about excepticons
 
user1804599
9:08 PM
@набиячлевэлиь Verbibols are currently not implemented.
 
user1804599
Functions work fine.
 
user1804599
Those images of CFGs of this and this, respectively.
 
// Reality is that better than millisecond resolution is very hard to
// achieve. However, we reserve the right to be incredible.
 typedef std::chrono::microseconds Duration;
Heh :D
^ ^ From Folly
 
9:13 PM
lacks credibility
@набиячлевэлиь dot
 
user1804599
@набиячлевэлиь dot
 
@набиячлевэлиь neato
 
user1804599
@sehe funny. we were just talking about graph representations generated by dot
 
9:14 PM
And he said "neato". Funny indeed.
 
user1804599
At work we have a robot named Neato.
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
I'm not sure about the "byname" keyword.
 
user1804599
It may be easily confused with named arguments.
 
user1804599
How about callbyname?
 
user1804599
9:16 PM
Or maybe deferredevaluation.
 
user1804599
Or leaveevaluationuptothecallee.
 
couldthecalleepleaseevaluatethisatwillnopressurethankyou
 
user1804599
I like deferred.
 
Sounds alright
 
user1804599
deferred it is.
 
9:25 PM
I like the thing || otherThingIfThingIsFalsy || orMaybeThisOneIfPreviousOnesAreFalsy notation from JS
 
user1804599
awful
 
user1804599
Booleanness for non-Booleans leads to bugs.
 
user406009
@набиячлевэлиь that's horrible.
 
user406009
If I got a quarter for every bug due to that ...
 
how would that - in itself - lead to bugs
 
user406009
9:34 PM
The problem is that stupid things like empty string are false.
 
yeah, well. It's easy to avoid the logical chaining of values if you don't know what they do...
 
user1804599
@sehe For example, you want to have a default case in case of null, so you write x || someDefault.
 
user1804599
Now you forgot to test it with x == 0.
 
user1804599
haha owned
 
Mmm. That makes ?? clearer yes
 
user406009
9:36 PM
?
 
user1804599
Option#map and Option#getOrElse
 
As a Python programmer, I like being able to treat objects as booleans implicitly. :)
 
Options#tits#getTFOut
 
user1804599
As a Python programmer, I don't. :)
 
user1804599
9:38 PM
And I avoid it like the plague in my Python code.
 
user406009
Only false and null should be falsy. At most.
 
user1804599
@sehe I still lack them. ;_;
 
user1804599
null shouldn't exist
 
We would reject the code until you submit to our culture. :)
 
user1804599
it's terrible
 
user1804599
9:39 PM
@AaronHall I couldn't care less.
 
I know.
 
user1804599
I reject Python until Python devs submit to their own Zen, e.g. explicit is better than implicit.
 
@elyse I do. I made a mental note to ask "Does Aaron Hall work here?" at every job interview
 
user406009
@elyse Null is more acceptable in a dynamically typed language.
 
user1804599
No, it is not.
 
9:40 PM
irrelephant
 
Zen isn't rules, it's about where the rules disappear. :)
 
user1804599
The nice thing about option types in particular is that they form monads.
 
Wow.
 
user1804599
So you can do structure-preserving operations on them.
 
user406009
Null shouldn't exist in a statically typed language.
 
user1804599
9:41 PM
You can't do that with null, which is annoying.
 
user406009
@elyse People get really afraid of the word "monad" though.
 
user1804599
And you need operations specialised for null, instead of being able to use the ones you're already familiar with from other monads such as lists and functions.
 
@Lalaland that's another bonus
 
@Lalaland Aaaah! runs away in fear
 
user1804599
Which in C# means a lot from LINQ.
 
user1804599
9:45 PM
E.g. can't say foo.Aggregate to fold over an optional value.
 
user406009
Anyways, I don't really buy the cost/benefit exchange of optionals in a dynamically typed language.
 
user406009
You get so little due to the lack of type checking
 
user1804599
It's not about type checking.
 
user1804599
It's about performing operations on them.
 
strongly typed and statically typed are two different things completely
4
 
user406009
9:47 PM
You can perform operations just as easily on null.
 
.NET should have had Nullable (and have it apply to reference types) from the get go, and no null.
 
user1804599
No, you can't.
 
Jon gets a star. Good doggie! :)
 
user1804599
You have to reimplement them and expose different APIs.
 
@AaronHall but I don't get a scooby snack!? :(
 
user406009
9:48 PM
@JonClements yes. But python and JS etc don't check types at all for user defined function parameters.
 
That said, having a "maybe" style construct in a dynamic language is kinda pointless.
 
user1804599
For example, LINQ's Select. With Option<T>, you could have a method Option<U> Select<U>(Func<T, U> f) on it.
 
They're metaphors for scooby snacks, and better for your digestion. :)
 
user1804599
Can't do that with nullable values.
 
user1804599
And in turn, can't pass it to anything that abstracts over Select, or F# computation expressions, or C# query expressions.
 
user1804599
9:50 PM
This works in both statically checked and dynamically checked languages.
 
user406009
Wait, why can't you do that with null?
 
user1804599
For example, because Select already exists on string (and List<T>, and more types that contain null), and (null as string).Select(f) will result in a null reference exception.
 
user406009
Not in objective C.
 
user1804599
You need the wrapper, and the wrapper also needs to be able to contain itself (which Objective-C can't now that you mention it), to make operations consistent.
 
Are you guys talking about ?. ?
 
user1804599
9:52 PM
So Option<Option<T>> must be allowed and work as expected.
 
user406009
I admit the option<option ... Argument is valid.
 
user1804599
@EtiennedeMartel About the usefulness of option types in dynamically checked programming languages.
 
user406009
But I counter that's its not usually very important.
 
user1804599
Implementing common interfaces (such as monad) allows for code reuse and knowledge reuse.
 
@EtiennedeMartel well. That's all they have! "Maybe" it's an int. Or maybe string. I dunno
 
9:54 PM
@sehe I meant a a Maybe/Nullable/Optional.
You know, a thing that might be null but might also have a value.
 
gosh. I'll cower in shame now, then? (nope)
@EtiennedeMartel really? Never heard of that
 
If you try to use it when it doesn't have a value, you get an error.
 
user1804599
sehe is trolling you.
 
I know.
 
user1804599
OK.
 
9:55 PM
Good
 
user1804599
Then you must be trolling sehe as well.
 
I countertroll by being deadpan serious.
 
Baaaaadly
 
That way the troll loses his time as much as he made me lose mine.
Everybody loses.
 
It's a flight response. Like a rabbit playing dead for an eagle
 
user1804599
9:56 PM
Communism.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Ambition!
 
anyone tried this yet github.com/bazelbuild/bazel
 
user406009
Anyways, I guess that resolves the discussion. Best argument for optional in dynamic languages: Nesting. Optional<Optional>. This is very useful for making functions completely generic. Best argument against: Increased complexity with none of the static guarantees Optional gets you in statically typed languages.
 
@Prismatic Apparently, google did
 
Dynamic languages are hackish montrosities anyway.
 
user406009
9:57 PM
@EtiennedeMartel They have a time and place.
 
@Lalaland "Best argument for optional in dynamic languages: Nesting" - did you invert something?
 
user406009
The other day I had to create a simple prototype very quickly.
 
@Lalaland Yep. The time is the 90's and the place is the trashcan
 
user406009
Took out Clojure, got to work. Finished it very quickly.
 
That's what she said. (Right before she moaned "~anecdotal~")
 
user1804599
9:58 PM
when is another livestream :D
 
Finishing quickly isn't necessarily a good thing.
 
user406009
@EtiennedeMartel For a prototype, it's quite useful.
 
user1804599
I want your cum NOW!!!
 
great... I'm just waiting for the flags to pile in :p
 
@elyse I did some this morning
 
user1804599
9:59 PM
I want to write a language specification.
 
user406009
I can also understand the people who use MongoDB during hackathons.
 
user1804599
@sehe They're not a livestream anymore. :(
 
@JonClements cum cum, now, don't be defaitist
 
user406009
Rapid development can sometimes be more useful than quality.
 
Also, if a language is only good for prototypes (which are things meant to be thrown away after a point), does that mean the language itself has no practical use?
 
9:59 PM
@elyse I'm aware of this. Working on my stamina (but no one wants to buy the kids yet)
 

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