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8:00 AM
@fredoverflow Is that Robot in the 6th one :p
 
Morning.
 
ffs, my entire screen filled with only four actual messages. Fuck onebox.
 
Fuck your screen ;)
 
@thecoshman Get a bigger one!
 
@fredoverflow The Smurfs one is interesting.
 
8:11 AM
Hi all :)
 
Good day
 
Howdy.
 
I know I am really not supposed to ask questions here but I am overwhelmed by this "Definitive C++ Book Guide and List" so I ended up here :) I had a semester of C++ at university and I want to get into software engineering and I have a job but it requires prestudying so I was wondering if you as more experienced people can advice me on how to learn to write proper code :)
 
@wilx define "real" :-)
 
@Kathi first rule of proper code club, there is no proper code
 
8:15 AM
@Kathi You have to suffer first.
 
Xeo
Great. Loading the russian localisation data crashes the game. Ugh.
Time to debug Unreal Engine
 
@ArneMertz Did Robot really cut himself by wardrobe?
 
Xeo
@wilx 'twas with one of those door hinge thingies
 
@Xeo OK...
 
harsh
 
8:16 AM
@sehe Yeah this one definitely got me laughing
 
@Kathi by learning what the people in your team deem "improper" code... There are performance zealots, formatting zealots, Clean Code zealots, ... I, for example am a bit one of the latter :-)
 
@Morwenn I am willing to suffer, I just want to suffer in the most efficient way ;-) and also really learning principles on how to write code that does not make others shout at their screen and won't get me fired after two weeks haha
 
@wilx just scroll up from that tweet about 20 messages...
 
Ah. Laziness. The hallmark of a potential programmer
 
@Kathi Use new extensively
 
8:17 AM
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva bastard
 
@Kathi Do you have prior experience with other languages?
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva You don't know offense. I've been trawling reddit the last 30 minutes
 
@Kathi ergh, really, it depends what you mean by 'proper'. Open source projects tend towards being able to have higher quality of code, as they have time to 'perfect' it, but not always. Professionally you have to constantly battle with just getting shit out the door.
 
@Kathi Have projects, code, when even slightly in doubt, look on the internet what seems to be the more pedantic. Also, read documentation when in doubt (if you're willing to use C++, use cppreference.com for documentation about the standard).
 
8:19 AM
@sehe How that?
 
Yeah I wonder too. Should I share?
 
Oh, litterally trawling. I thought you were taking liberties on the pronunciation.
@sehe Please do
 
@Mr.kbok well as an engineer I used to program A LOT in Matlab. I also programmed an iOS App once in Objective C :)
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Cough. Here goes
> oh look a gif of Tony Abbot NSFW/NSFL
 
@Morwenn yeah but how to I get projects before starting the job :)
 
8:20 AM
@sehe "Tony Abbot", don't know him, don't care; "NSFW/NSFL", oooh now I really want to see it!
 
@Kathi start your own projects or find OSS projects to participate in
 
@Kathi open source projects, or your own vOv
 
@Kathi The signs are fine. Maybe you should start answering C++ questions on SO
 
@sehe To click or not to click
 
You already answered. Mr 4chan
 
8:23 AM
@Kathi is that code you have written a) working fast enough, b) bugfree, c) easily readable for others (including your future self) ? :-)
 
@sehe I sometimes look at the questions but really I have no chance on even understanding the questions most of the time :) I read a lot on SO but yeah.. I will be working on large scale C++ projects but my experience is "interview questions" and basic exams at the moment
 
@Kathi yeah... take the time to understand them
not all of them mind
 
^
 
some of the questions are mostly just abusing obscure features, but you should know enough to know if it's useful information, or feature abuse
 
@ArneMertz a)depends, the app works fine and my matlab stuff also worked fine but if I then look at code of others (also for example on hackerrank.com) I am like "woah I would have NEVER thought of this", b) it did not crash so I guess yes and c) I am overly commenting to prevent myself from freaking out half a year later but sometimes I cant understand my own code even though I commented a lot about what I intend to do :)
 
8:26 AM
shit like ADL is something that I think you really need to at least be aware of, so that if you find a problem caused by it, you have a hope in hell of noticing that is what it is and can then go read up on how to determine for sure and fix the issue.
@Kathi comments are a dodgy topic. Ideally your code should be cleanly written enough that you don't even need comments to explain it.
 
@sehe I'm amazed that people had to explain what it was
 
me too
There's some pretty informed comments too
Hard to verify all the data there
 
also people who studied Computed Science are telling me about design principles and "3 tier architecture" which is all stuff I have never really heard of and I take it it makes sense to learn it
 
Xeo
@thecoshman Just write all your function calls like (fun)(args)!
 
@thecoshman because comments get out of synch and neglected - reasons > rules /cc @Kathi
 
Xeo
8:28 AM
No problems with ADL, ever :D
 
maybe a book with sample projects to think through or something like that?
 
@Kathi You should be fine then. I guess read "C++ Primer", which you give you the necessary knowledge to be employable :)
 
@Kathi Experience comes with experience. No shortcuts.
Only accelerators (mindfulness, e.g. You seem to be doing fine)
 
@sehe very true
 
@Xeo It even makes it easy to detect function-like macros on the invokation site. Clever.
 
8:29 AM
Don't they sell XP+ potions in the cash shop
 
@Kathi a) that's ok, much of it is experience and that stuff will come with time. If it works ok, there's no need to add fancy stuff for now. b) you guess? :D c) seems to need work then :-) amazon.com/Clean-Code-Handbook-Software-Craftsmanship/dp/…
 
@Kathi there is a lot of bullshit that people will talk about with out really understanding it. That's not to say they are wrong, just something to be careful of
 
@ArneMertz Ok, 3 strikes and you're out :)
@ArneMertz CC salesmen...
 
@sehe hu?
:P
 
yeah, not cool
 
8:32 AM
Streaming by the way
 
@sehe now?
 
@ArneMertz thanks for the link, I will check it out
 
@TonyTheLion yeah
 
@Mr.kbok and also 1k pages are fine :) I have time until next July to get on speed
*up to speed
 
@sehe I have to work
:(
 
8:34 AM
on speed would be something different hahaha
 
@TonyTheLion Me too. Just not this morning
 
lucky you
 
Was she allergic to his bacon?
Was the bacon not good anymore?
 
Xeo
oh noez. Please not. Not a heisenbug. Nooooo.
 
8:37 AM
Conquer you fear. Stay rational
 
@ArneMertz is that book for a specific programming language or more general? I cant figure that out
 
more general (applicability)
Don't worry - it's a GoodBookâ„¢
 
@sehe Danke :)
 
Gerne
(oder so etwas :))
 
@sehe genau! perfect, looks like I have a new book to read before going to sleep every night
 
8:43 AM
Switzerland was very nice this summer :) (very hot)
 
warum sprachen Sie jetzt Deutsch
 
sprachen?
 
@sehe haha I am from switzerland :)
@sehe what parts have you been to?
 
I noticed, which is why I mentioned it.
@Kathi I was in Wallis (Blatten bei Naters) for about 3 weeks
 
8:49 AM
@Kathi it's more general. Examples are mostly in Java though.
 
@sehe I suck at german.. is it sprechen?
 
Besser schon
 
gut
 
@MarcoA. yep
 
@Griwes what are you trying to tell me? O.O
 
8:51 AM
@Kathi Exactly what is said by the gif.
 
@Kathi Use the reply arrow.
 
@Griwes (its actually the worst gif ever)
 
@Kathi that you don't just type "@..." but use the reply arrow on the right
@Kathi but obviously it worked :D
 
and then they say they don't care so much about reply-to feature
 
@ArneMertz ahh... oh.. sorry.. old facebook habits :)
 
8:52 AM
@Kathi yes, it indeed is
 
@sehe oh very nice! (but Zurich is still nicer ;))
 
@AndyProwl I don't care about it when it's not there. But I can't watch people not using it when it's in place :/
 
Being the worst gif ever is its best feature.
 
@Griwes I am sorry, I figured typing "@" has the same functionality
 
Is there some kind of compress library in boost? Something dumb is enough
 
@Kathi You think? Our company head quarters are there. Never been there though.
Actually I'm just leaving the company because all future development is in Singapore and Moscow. :|
 
@sehe yuck
 
> zlib for the "next generation" systems. Drop-In replacement with some serious optimizations.
 
> in boost
 
@sehe Now I am wondering what company has its HQ in Zürich besides CS... Well I understand, not many companies have their development in Switzerland.. too expensive
 
8:56 AM
What are non-serious optimizations
@Mr.kbok Not that I'm aware of
 
@ArneMertz It's quite simple. We got bought. Means the company was doing well. Buying mother company was Russian (it's Acronis, by the way)
 
@Kathi Banks
 
@Kathi Acronis :) Apparently many companies like to be based in CH for legal reasons?
 
@sehe Oh I know those situations... this is my second job, and the second time the company I work at was bought by a larger corporation
 
@Mr.kbok haha :D but most of them don't have a lot of IT jobs in Switzerland as far as I know
 
8:59 AM
@Kathi I am switching to a new company which has its HQ near Zurich too :-) (Schlieren)
 
@sehe hm maybe.. but mostly the marketing and sales departements, at least its that way for companies I used to work for but I also mostly worked for big international firms
@ArneMertz so we can make SO meetings in Zürich :D
 
@Kathi well I am staying in Hamburg.
 
@ArneMertz Yeah happened to me before
 
@sehe working in Singapore was no option?
 
9:01 AM
> Chromium guide
> google-stylguide
> Google C++ Style Guide
> GNU Coding Standard
> Linux kernel coding style
REALLY??
Is this a curated list of all people who hate C++
 
@sehe this time the french based corporation that owned our mother company merged with another bigger corp... 50k employees in the concern means just too much bureaucracy for a little 70 employee company :/
 
> A curated list of awesome C/C++ frameworks, libraries, resources, and shiny things.
lel
 
> XML
 
@Kathi Yes. But not at this time for me (kids)
 
> expat, libxml++, rapidxml, xerxes
This list is shite
 
9:03 AM
Actually the boss tried to push the teams to get me a "remote worker" role. But I didn't get the impression it was gonna work out.
 
You should be ashamed @AnastasiyaAsadullayeva
 
What now
 
We should make another list, "List of actually decent C++ libraries"
 
> Faraz Fallahi
> Looking for a job
 
9:04 AM
> Useful C/C++ related websites.
 
Sums it up pretty well.
 
> cplusplus.com - The C++ Resources Network.
> C++ FQA Lite - C++ frequently questioned answers.
Did this guy just google C++
 
hahahahhahahahaa
 
Why does cplusplus.com still exist?
 
Because morons.
 
9:06 AM
@TonyTheLion It brings them money, methinks
 
@Mr.kbok I just posted the first google link lol
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Just like that guy.
 
Ugh Lufthansa pilots on a strike again. What the fuck do they want to gain by making the company actively lose money?
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Is that on SO (link?)
 
9:07 AM
@Griwes Wait until you see Air France
@sehe I am not sure, it would be nice to have!
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva More like Ground France
 
Even if they had any, err, customer sympathy, they seem to be fixed on losing it.
It makes absolutely no sense.
 
Goin' @sehe
4
Q: Direct list initialization compiles successfully, but normal direct initialization fails, why?

Jack  ChinFor example, code like this: struct A { A(int); }; struct B { B(A); }; int main() { B b{{0}}; // OK B c({0}); // error } The error messages are: f.cc: In function 'int main()': f.cc:7:9: error: call of overloaded 'B(<brace-enclosed initializer list>)' is ambiguous B c({0}); // er...

 
@Griwes lol customer sympathy
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva option #1, because it doesn't hide what's going on (SRP in a nutshell)
 
9:10 AM
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Hmm. You might be right, no-one outside of the unions wants the unions to exist.
 
@sehe But the interface surface is much bigger no? (needlessly?)
 
> Pilots are also concerned about Lufthansa's aim to further develop its low-cost activities as it faces growing competition.
lel
 
yes. So, if you're going to hide that, use "properly named" "abstractions". Holder and operationA(Thingy const&) both don't fit the description. And I was completely baffled by the fact that "Holder" would own the map.
Perhaps you're thinking towards Data-Access-Layer patterns.
 
I picked random names for the examples. What is wrong with the holder owning the map though?
 
Meanwhile, on livecoding.tv/sehe
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Ouch. First rule: good naming trumps interface mechanics
> We have dennisritchie AAAAND jamesgosling in the room. I'm going to heaven soon
 
9:13 AM
sehe was taken already
 
lol
 
Essentially I want client code to say to not have to care on which blob operation_* is forwarded to
 
Xeo
@sehe lol
 
I wouldn't have problems with Holder. In fact, I'm not sure how the two options are mutually exclusive. It seems to me like option 2 builds on top of option 1. As long as that abstraction makes sense, which is hard to tell with dummy names, why not
 
@sehe Offline? (Or blocked here)
 
9:15 AM
Not offline. Refresh?
 
Sorry about the dummy names I'll try to make a more compelling example
 
@Xeo Pretty freaky right
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva that's all right, also how those things are used by clients is important and we won't be able to see that, so I guess it's your call to tell whether that abstraction makes sense
 
@sehe Nope, must be blocked.
 
e.g. who fills the map?
 
9:16 AM
"Holder"
 
so clients won't need to use different maps?
 
Clients don't care about the maps
 
IOW if the client doesn't need to know or care about the map, then Holder makes sense IMO
ok, then I'd say option 2 makes sense, but that doesn't mean option 1 is excluded. It's more like, wrapped up
 
Yes, that's right.
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva sad-trombone.wav
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva It resembles a database, in a key-value fashion, right? Why not use terms from that domain?
 
9:19 AM
also you may consider unordered_map
 
Or maybe it's just a caching thing? Use Flyweight pattern, perhaps
 
if you don't need ordering
 
It's essentially a collection of statistics counters.
Yes ordering is not needed and actually it's a flat_map in below
I realize my example sucks
jeez
 
I think after explanation it's ok
@Griwes Galaxy Note is cool, thanks for the tip
I should have bought a cover though
I love the edge shit
 
I'll make a clearer example (a bit longer though)
 
9:22 AM
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva When thinking about interface design, focus on the call-sites, instead of showing implementation mechanics
 
damn my country.. I sweated for 3 months and now I've got shivers
weather y u so crazy
 
yeah fuck the weather
11 degrees with rain here
 
@AndyProwl :D
@AndyProwl The flip cover thing is pretty good (at least on Note 2).
 
@AndyProwl where are you right now?
 
@MarcoA. brno
(czech republic)
@Griwes yeah I just bought that
 
9:24 AM
I wonder if I can get another one for it anywhere these days - my old one is dying.
 
@MarcoA. Like what?
 
@AndyProwl that's a bit more north than my place
 
@MarcoA. where are you? not Ancona?
 
@AndyProwl yes, some kms south of it
 
23 degrees in ancona according to google
so much envy
 
9:26 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I might need to use a GYP-ninja library into a larger project, have you ever tried integrating stuff like that in a let's say CMake project?
 
No.
I used a custom generator.
 
@AndyProwl google is wrong, my weather thermometer says 19
@R.MartinhoFernandes care to explain a bit please?
 
@MarcoA. still much better than this horror weather
 
@MarcoA. I generate ninja files with with my own hand-written script.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes uhm so you're just using ninja as build system but no GYP library right?
(and that makes sense since those are totally unrelated things)
 
9:29 AM
Right.
 
I have a GYP-based library and I'm trying to find a way to use it into a larger project with CMake
I'm practically doing a pain-evaluation process: How painful will it be?
 
Lol. Look at that
 
for now it's over 9000
 
So they updated Geometry in 1.57, while it was new in 1.58. Good job
 
@sehe Boost?
 
9:31 AM
@MarcoA. ADL?
 
make sense.. you first update then discover the library
 
@MarcoA. what else
 
@Columbo lol
 
@MarcoA. 10 FOR NOW = 1 TO 9000 STEP 1000
 
> moderate pain - interferes significantly with ADLs
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes First time I hear it in English.. and it seems to say "Vagina, what's his power level?"
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Ok, from this POV option #2 is better. I still think it looks like "Holder" is the missing abstraction. Which is giving you the questions.
 
It's "Vegeta"
 
9:37 AM
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva yeah I think option 2 is ok
 
It should be "Store" or "Database" or so. And with that, I arrive at my preference:
Book book(key);

book.update();
book.trade();
 
> bookstore
 
> bukkakestore
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Store<Book>
 
@AndyProwl bookakke
 
9:38 AM
I think the pattern folks call it DAL
 
@sehe I don't follow the book(key) part, I still need a map somewhere, right?
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva damn I knew there was a better way to make that pun
 
@AnastasiyaAsadullayeva Yes, and you want it to be automatic. See Flyweight. Or factory. Lazy loading.
 
inb4 ~~patterns~~
 
mmm so Book book(key); would just act as a proxy to some kind of (static?) store?
 
9:49 AM
Anyone else ideas? Looks like a pretty baffling bug in Boost Geometry to me stackoverflow.com/a/32476273/85371
 
NOT_OR_NOT_YET_IMPLEMENTED_FOR_THIS_GEOMETRY_TYPE sounds funny
 
Indeed. It's hilarious
 
NOT_OR_NOT_YET_IMPLEMENTED_BUT_LETS_NOT_BE_TOO_PESSIMISTIC_ABOUT_IT_SHALL_WE
 

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