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14:00
@BartekBanachewicz Well, you did introduce the bug, didn't you? :p It shouldn't matter whose "fault" it is though. What's important is what can be done to prevent it happening again
@BartekBanachewicz Only your fault? Who cares.
I sometimes feel like disabling automerging entirely
I'll refer you back to team spirit.
Blaming your coworkers is not the way to get things done.
@R.MartinhoFernandes depends how you do it :P
@R.MartinhoFernandes Is blaming myself for everything that way?
14:01
Anyway I need to finish stupid UI work
You take responsibility for your failure and take everyone else's failure as a team failure. You are the team too.
And then I have a month to get the server setup into shape
@jalf The changes I'd make aren't acceptable here.
@BartekBanachewicz "Team spirit"
Then don't do them
Why are you looking for more work for yourself
There'll be plenty of that from the project itself
Minimal changes are key to not going completely insane and drinking yourself to sleep
I'm sorry, there's no magic silver bullet that'll make everything perfect. But you're not the benevolent dictator of your project at work, so you can't just dictate the workflow. But you can discuss the problems with your team and push for changes towards something more sensible.
And if they refuse to do anything to improve their process, then fuck'em. Find a better place to work
I dictated the workflow and it worked :v
> oh sure, just put on my job helmet and climb in the job cannon...
3
Xeo
Xeo
gg UE4. It has a hard check-assert macro when editing a widget name, limiting it to 1024 characters or less. Crashes when it's bigger.
14:06
@Xeo it's a easter egg
You can change it!
@jalf Discussing the problems requires some tact, though. Can't barge in with "they write crappy code, they make me write crappy code, and as a result I commit more bugs".
Xeo
Xeo
And it allows pasting a copied widget into the name field (it's just serialized data, after all...)
If you want to prove that workflow is bad then identify concrete problems that a new one would solve
Xeo
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus That really helps when it already crashed :(
aaaah, and my changes are of course gone
14:07
(To be honest, I've more than once flat-out told my boss "this code is crap", but I'm sure that doesn't work with everyone)
Like "we get a lot of bugs of type X and by doing this thing we can significantly reduce that number"
@CatPlusPlus inb4 it's all wrong though
> you're special
@CatPlusPlus I would never drink myself to sleep. In fact, I've never touched a drop of alcohol. I find drinkers utterly reprehensible.
Like anyone would believe you
@thecoshman No. My boss is willing to hear me out.
14:08
sxrill up cot
> you're special
@thecoshman not really
I don't believe say Don Stewart's team does shit like that.
you're the boss
Don who
who the fuck is Don Stewart
14:09
There's also a difference between "this code is crap" and "you write crappy code".
Don Stewart (born Donald Lee Stewart on October 25, 1939, in Prescott, Arizona) is a Pentecostal minister and purported faith healer. He is a televangelist who hosts "Power and Mercy" on Black Entertainment Television, The Word Network, and other television channels. He is the successor to the late A. A. Allen's organization. == Origins and early ministry == According to his official biography, Stewart is the youngest of six children and at age 13, Don had developed a severe bone disease, but after four major surgeries when he was 15 years old "God miraculously healed him. Currently, he lives in...
@R.MartinhoFernandes true. But IMO that's kind of implicit in the whole "team spirit" thing :)
The latter is a lot more likely to put people on the defensive.
pfft he's only got 104k what would he know
, at that
put away your esoteric academic sunglasses and wake up!
14:09
I pretty much never use what I learn from a git blame in conversation.
@R.MartinhoFernandes unless the discovery is that you fucked up five years ago
@LightnessRacesinOrbit No, that makes it even less likely.
I still think it'd be much funnier if blame commands actually went and blamed someone
@LightnessRacesinOrbit yes, apparently he and his team don't exist
it's all my imagination
@CatPlusPlus when I first used SVN I thought that's what it does
Ugggh docs
14:10
@BartekBanachewicz I see. Why bring it up, then?
You reminded me that I still have shitton of docs to write
Ignore
@BartekBanachewicz It does.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit his google talk slides are my imagination too
@CatPlusPlus ;p
@CatPlusPlus just call software developments [sic] "bullshit". that'll make it go away!
This makes me sad.
14:11
@BartekBanachewicz you have a strange imagination
user1804599
@CatPlusPlus USE="offensive".
So indoctrinated :(
Everything about software makes me sad
@R.MartinhoFernandes how many of us?
@BartekBanachewicz do you think he achieved this wondrous utopian state of affairs by sitting around ranting that his team wouldn't let him have his way? :p
14:12
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Bartek. "And for my next trick, I'll mention randomer that uses Haskell!"
he's not a randomer
@BartekBanachewicz He is one in this room.
he's leading what's I think the worlds biggest and most successfull haskell team
He's extremely random to the context of this particular conversation
14:12
Pull a Haskeller out of your sleeve
No one is a randomer.
and while we're at it, probably the best software team in the world
@BartekBanachewicz You know what? You're right. This wouldn't happen on Don's team. There's no way in hell he'd employ a disruptive blamer like you!
at least, I haven't seen evidence for any better existing
Technology is not a solution to social issues
Stop being jef
of all those software teams you know about
Workflows and team cooperation and whatnot is entirely social
@LightnessRacesinOrbit you know, I made a mistake of thinking you can bring something constructive to the discussion, and you've proven me wrong again.
Technology only exists here to aid
14:14
First, that's just hero worship. He exists in the real world, he writes code for a commercial company according to his profile, therefore it is imperfect and constrained by reality
@BartekBanachewicz He brought a lot in already.
35 mins ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit
1. Check out code.
2. Fix bug as instructed.
3. Fuck up whilst at it.
4. Commit to branch.
5. Attempt merge.
6. Merge fails with millions of conflicts cos I'm a loser.
7. Bail out. Revert. Cancel merge.
8. Go back to my branch. Fix my stupidity.
9. Retry merge.
10. Close my branch.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I disagree.
Second, why is the existence of one developer who runs one good team and has a good code base relevant? What does it prove?
user1804599
14:14
You're both bad so who cares.
I guess giving you the precise recipe you need to fix this fuck up of yours, for free, wasn't constructive.
If you took your team with all those issues and gave them Haskell, it would change precisely nothing
@BartekBanachewicz I know. It's why we're still at it.
I should send your team an invoice.
@jalf that it's possible.
14:14
Ignoring training issues etc
that it's possible to develop software in a non shitty way
unconference is gonna be fucken hilarious
Entire industry is dedicated to finding that non-shitty way
@BartekBanachewicz You mean, that it is possible to convince Bartek that you're developing software in a non-shitty way :p
Why do you think methodologies change every 5 years
14:15
they don't
the fact of which is most popular overall does though :(
I'm willing to bet that if you sat him down for a beer, he'd have plenty of horror stories about parts of their code that they hate and fear and want to clean up, but haven't had the time for
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's very much the way to get things blamed. That seems to be his goal anyways
though that's largely cargo culting IMO
As well as plenty of code that they'd like to have better test coverage for
Waterfallin' to your death
14:16
Waterfallin' across the universe
On the starship Bartek cos we only got reverse
user1804599
Waterfall is better for the developer.
user1804599
Fuck the client.
that's illegal in many places
<<<<<<< HEAD
    extern const char* KEY_TWITTER_REWARD_GIVEN;
=======
    extern const char* KEY_TWITTER_REWARD_GIVEN;
>>>>>>> master
Xeo
Xeo
14:17
@LightnessRacesinOrbit 'cept in Brothel businesses.
@Xeo right, which are illegal in many places
@Xeo There are many places that aren't that.
:'( it's one of those days where I just keep reviewing stuff from the other team members
@BartekBanachewicz lol tabs
That's the best day
14:17
@BartekBanachewicz surprised you didn't change it to say "twatter" :P
I've done little dev stuff myself for a few days...
@R.MartinhoFernandes EOL change probably :v
@R.MartinhoFernandes tabs > spaces
@sehe @LightnessRacesinOrbit Oh my, I really can't see what's wrong even not much code: pastebin.com/SBW57RUB
@CatPlusPlus Nah, tabs. Has to be tabs.
14:18
then you don't get merge conflicts every fucking time someone commits a code change cos their rendering preference is different
Anyway, getting back to something resembling a point, you can either push your team to improve, in a diplomatic and nonconfrontational way that involves compromise and patience, you can leave and find a place with a more disciplined dev team, or you can sit and rant that things suck and just accept it
@Enissay dat identation
@R.MartinhoFernandes no. Both have spaces.
Switch your merger to ignore whitespace nub
@BartekBanachewicz fwiw, sane merge tools can be told to disregard whitespace changes
14:18
@BartekBanachewicz That's your fault, then.
user1804599
I wish I were happy.
separate code from rendering of code. you don't encode font options and syntax highlighting into your code. so don't encode indentation width into it either.
simples.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, I figured.
@BartekBanachewicz who f cares. Work on a clean, local branch that redoes the change. Auto-merge it to clean master, diff it manually to "horrifically gone bad merge". Changes should be minimal 'cause guess what: it's the same merge again.
Also, enable git-rerere while you're at it. Thank me later
14:19
Commit tabs and I'll destroy you with lint error emails
i still dont get that
not trolling. i honestly dont.
@BartekBanachewicz Replaying merges
as far as I can tell, both lines are identical
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz git branch rm
@AlexM. sorry, somehow the format is ruined after copy/paste... it looks great though on my sublime :> i.imgur.com/4RyeDi2.png
14:19
@BartekBanachewicz Then the fix is trivial.
> great
Also always show invisibles
that looks ugly
@Xeo even there is would often be contractually forbidden to actually fuck with the client
@jalf or kill yourself
14:20
@Enissay you're fucking up while combining tabs with spaces
for some arcane reason
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes.
and also for some arcane reason you drop empty lines everywhere
Why wouldn't you drop empty lines
Trailing whitespace must die
@BartekBanachewicz some one is trolling with different types of spaces :P
@Enissay you're not having the operator visible at the time of that constructor
14:21
empty lines everywhere make your code tl;dr even if it's not
tbh I wouldn't assume everything's ok with this conflict
I'd get your hex editor out
46 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@BartekBanachewicz YES YOU FUCKING HAVE TO CHECK EVERY SINGLE CONFLICT.
It's an EOL change
almost certainly
@AlexM. Oh you mean just having empty lines
but if he were showing invisibles then he'd already know that
so
14:22
@CatPlusPlus yep
That improves readability a lot
@LightnessRacesinOrbit I'd just pick one, normalize the whitespace, and commit.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'd want to know what's going on, at least
@CatPlusPlus especially in his ctor there :P
it's really needed
/s
Doesn't hurt either
Xeo
Xeo
14:23
@AlexM. I'd just drop the brace to the next line vOv
The more I do this shit the more annoying people complaining about style get
if I have to add an empty line I extract a method
always done it
I swear one day I'll explode
@Xeo then the line is not empty
amazing
@CatPlusPlus lel
14:23
Either from that or from being too fat
Xeo
Xeo
@AlexM. Meh. I like plain empty lines for spatial separation
@CatPlusPlus film it please
Subscribe first
to what?
14:25
To meeeeeeeeeee
where?
On PayPal
you know, I really always thought that programming is an exciting job where you get to solve hard problems
@R.MartinhoFernandes Someone blew up that channel
14:26
Solving hard problems is to be avoided
@BartekBanachewicz Yes! Hard problems. Like branch management, risk management and teamwork.
Try computer science instead of programming
@BartekBanachewicz there are no hard problems
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Exploding Kitten
@CatPlusPlus shit
@thecoshman We all know there are three hard problems: cache invalidation and off by one errors.
@sehe oh, nice... But why using friend since i'm just calling a public method printMe() ?
I GET IT
14:28
I mean, is it mandatory ?
@JerryCoffin no had problems
Having friends is mandatory for sanity
@Enissay Because he intended to make printMe private.
Speaking of hard problems I'll probably be running this fucking system
I just feel it
Xeo
Xeo
@JerryCoffin Or he just wanted to define it inside the class...
14:30
@sehe those aren't the problems I'd like to work on
I've kinda realized that.
@Xeo Entirely possible too--but IMO, printMe should be private, and Sehe's smart enough that it seemed reasonable to give him the benefit of any doubt.
Xeo
Xeo
@JerryCoffin s/jalf/polar bear/
You complimented jalf. Get ready to be lambasted.
14:30
@CatPlusPlus at least you'll know for sure the person who made it really is a cunt
Lambdasted
@thecoshman I hate him already
@CatPlusPlus Like a hamster on a wheel.
The topic is stale please fix
Like 100 hamsters on a distributed wheel
Xeo
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Without the option to get off
14:31
That might fail in 400 different ways
And that's only on Mondays
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Fresh topic loungecpp.net/the-law/newbie-hints [c++] [c++11] [c++14] [c++-faq]
well done
welp
I finished HalfLife2, both episodes, and both Portal games in two days.
@BartekBanachewicz Sven?
First sign of madness is when people start calling your position devops
4
14:33
@Puppy well done on missing all the content!
didn't really miss any content
Portal 1 is like 3 hour game
There's nothing to miss
portal 2 is a bit longer though
Yeah but still Valve games are linear as fuck
14:34
o_0 I can spend ages on some levels looking at all the details
Which is better than other linear games that try to bury that fact under tons of stupid 100% scavenger hunts
scavenger butts
but then I like immersion and not just completing the puzzle, else I'd get a puzzle
I'm not saying you should speed all the way through
14:35
But even if you pay attention to details it's really really short and it's hard to miss anything
P1 took me about 5 hours
one sitting anyway
I start playing through Portal 2 and noticed loads I missed the first few times I played
but then as always, I get bored, wonder off, and never finish it.
From slightly hidden stuff in P1 there's just Ratman caves, but they're all kinda samey
I rarely 'finish' games :\
G'day all. LRiO sobered up yet?
14:37
In Portal 2 there are many more easter eggs
No, never
I need to listen to turret opera again
@MartinJames shh don't mention it, it might not notice us walk away
We are enabling CloudFlare routing on http://meta.stackexchange.com in a just a bit. Let us know if you see any craziness!
I quite liked the end of Episode 2 where you fight the Striders in a fairly freeform environment
14:39
ahh
of course, when I was told my code is too structured
that meant the code duplication I tried to avoid got back to the master
Really? I hated the gimmick in that fight
so now we have 3 functions of 70 lines each being virtually identical
that was one of the merge conflicts
@BartekBanachewicz how can code be too structured idgi what does it mean
"you drive too safely"
@ParkYoung-Bae it's my fault
Not enough cross-codebase goto
14:40
oh also the pattern with mutable flag-and-call-again is back there
@CatPlusPlus The actual Magnusson Devices themselves I thought were kind of annoying since you could only carry one and they often seemed to bounce off things.
instead of fixing the problem with my refactored code, he reverted back the older version, copied it two times and called it a day
but it was fun to run over Hunters in the car.
@BartekBanachewicz learn from your master
@ParkYoung-Bae I didn't communicate with people in my team about the practices we chose to follow, and wrote code that didn't meet company code quality and OOP principles
14:42
You not communicating? How did that happen
rest assured I'll follow the OOP principles from now on
Bitter Banachewicz
we wouldn't like any structural code in our codebase would we
You wouldn't want things to accidentally work
oh they work now
I introduced a small bug when I refactored the thing
the flow was too complicated for my small mind to understand, obviously
14:44
@BartekBanachewicz Don't do the passive aggressive thing
Talk with people
Maybe you should use Go
@CatPlusPlus it was my code that didn't work and his that did
@Enissay it's a trick to include the non-member overload inside the class declaration so it's visible. Otherwise, declare the constructor, but implement it after declaring the operator<< overload
if I raise that up I'll be the person who commits buggy code and only complains
not doing that.
no way.
14:45
@CatPlusPlus Wow. if even the Cat picks up on that :]
@BartekBanachewicz How is that potato game thing going?
@BartekBanachewicz you mean, not all day
@Jefffrey omg they kept the name? /cc @Bart
@sehe I mean I'm not going to raise that with the team
look at it from the others' perspective
@sehe noted... thks <3
14:46
Yeah. Better to apply for another job.
user1804599
hahahahhahahahahahahhahaahahahahahha
series question time now... who actually enjoys their 'programming job'?
I'll skip this episode.
The job part of the programming part
14:46
careful being the guy that complains about the code base too pointedly
I kinda do
really great way to make enemies
and it's not productive
@CatPlusPlus the thing you do for money.
* I'm relatively new at the company
* I refactored their code (implying it was kinda meh)
* I introduced a bug
* Someone had to fix that bug
* Now I want to complain against his solution
in my place, the guy who complains about the code base all the time is the guy who wrote the code base the first time
14:47
@sehe everything ^ is against me
Beh I complain about stuff but my team can recognise these things as well
@thecoshman :crickets:
@BartekBanachewicz vOv let this one go.
@bartek did you talk to him about it? are you doing code review for it?
so every time we find something that's shit then he's like, "Yeah, it's shit and it's all my fault"
14:47
@BartekBanachewicz Next time you can talk first.
@Jeremy no, if anything he would review my code. But yeah I talked with him earlier
@BartekBanachewicz Just be constructive and don't go all niebler on them
Xeo
Xeo
@thecoshman I do, ~70% of the time :D
@R.MartinhoFernandes I talked with him but thought he agrees to let my helpers stay there
appparently he didn't.
If you're getting paid to improve code then it's not "complaining" when you recognise something bad
14:48
@Xeo I see home time is a substantial part of your job
well fuck helpers, but the broken code flow with that flag
It's what you're there for
@thecoshman I do, mostly. Like any job it has some boring parts (paperwork, irrelevant meetings, etc.), but most of the programming is quite enjoyable, and the other parts are a fairly bearable minority of the time.
@CatPlusPlus no, I'm here to develop games
that's what they pay me for
Bartek's a game dev now, and commits bugs? It all makes sense!
14:49
@Jefffrey don't ask
@BartekBanachewicz s/everything/you/ :)
@BartekBanachewicz Too late.
@sehe I just wanted to improve the codebase a tiny bit.
@ParkYoung-Bae huh. making that sound bad. I like Niebler's mode :/
going back, I regret every nearly improvement I suggested or implemented
14:50
@BartekBanachewicz We understand. Don't worry. We love you all the same
@BartekBanachewicz you're new. You have no idea how far reach the changes you make could be.
@BartekBanachewicz You're getting it! Improve implies change. Change is risk
Hey hey
@thecoshman that was a local issue
Who here is good with git?
14:51
not me
@Moshe Graduated?
@Moshe Everyone.
Braket is traumatized
@sehe lol not yet. I should have but I have to finish up a few more classes.
14:51
o.O
Anywho, silly issue, not sure how to fix it.
@Moshe I guess I'm all right with him. He pisses me off once in a while, but not too much recently.
¬_¬ very good job Jenkins. Have boxes with scroll bars, but then make said boxes large enough to not require them
@sehe I'll be done five years after I started, with a ridiculously cool portfolio.
How can I tell a submodule to stop pointing at a commit that doesn't exist and to point at the latest commit on the submodule's main branch?
@Moshe long walk, short plank
14:52
Getting "fatal: reference is not a tree: blah blah" error.
@MartinJames Maybe
@Moshe cd to it, git checkout, back up to main repo, commit?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Maybe, let's try that. stand by
Worked, thanks.
14:55
Submodules suck
Xcode still being dumb tho.
Indeed.
@R.MartinhoFernandes about that infinite loop
14:55
@BartekBanachewicz That about sums things up, I'd say.
@BartekBanachewicz I'm interning there this summer.
god fuck writing docs is dull
it just killed my OS, opening tabs until it exhausted my RAM
I have to document a DB schema that is largely shit and largely my fault
14:56
@CatPlusPlus nah. Though they are much nicer now that git lets you share the data locally.
lol
that we're stuck with cos scale
because non-devs want to write their own queries into it for reporting purposes
@R.MartinhoFernandes I merged all the conflicts and took his version of the code. Apparently I had to make some mistake because the loop appeared
Time to rebuild an app that hasn't been touched since iOS 6.
bbiab
14:56
@thecoshman I prefer subtrees
@CatPlusPlus ... go on
3
Q: When can a struct safely be hashed as an array of bytes?

PraxeoliticFor structs where equality means identical most-derived type and byte equality of each data member, when, if ever, can the struct safely be hashed as an array of bytes? This document http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2012/n3333.html under the heading "Hashing objects as byte a...

@sehe Bracket is unhinged?
@FilipRoséen-refp I don't even
@MartinJames ISWYDT
14:58
yeah, confirmed
I'm surprised the linked paper is co-authored by Chandler Carruth, and still lacks wording that deals with the fact that the value representation of a type must not use the full set of bits available in the sizeof(T) (where T is not a narrow character type)
while doing copy-paste of that code he forgot to change one thing in one place
and it went into an infinite loop
I... don't know what to say

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