« first day (1452 days earlier)      last day (3497 days later) » 

Ell
9:00 PM
@EtiennedeMartel awesome!
What about?
 
how he's a moron?
I'm not shitting, I watched a talk by Bjarne where about 50% of the content was "I don't know" and "I'm not as smart as I used to be"
 
@Ell "The Essence of C++". Basically, what C++ is supposed to be at its core and how it can go forward by staying true to that.
 
by the way
 
@Abyx Stop hurting yourself. Hurting yourself is not a solution.
 
have I mentioned that the more I think about some of the stuff I've read about Rust, the more I think that it might be fucking awesome?
 
9:03 PM
The stuff?
 
I'm seriously considering giving this language a real shot
 
Make sure you’re ready to face struct foo; vs impl foo {}
 
hm
that sounds less appealing
 
Oct 1 at 10:11, by Luc Danton
The Rust people are considering allowing struct Foo {} and possibly giving up on struct Foo;.
^thankfully
 
wait, they actually have forward declarations?
welp, Rust shot gone.
 
9:06 PM
Nah, it’s a definition for an empty struct.
 
oh
 
It’s not the syntax I mind, it’s the inconsistency with an empty impl.
 
@Puppy it's still kinda pre-alpha, they will change everything before the release
 
Wide's still pretty pre-alpha too
 
I mean there is a high possibility that they will drop all the cool features
or just won't implement them
 
9:08 PM
@Puppy I bandy it around all the time jokingly, as it’s about all the faults I can find with the current language.
 
more likely they will come up with more general features that supersede them
 
@Abyx ...well, everything except the three things you found unbearably annoying, anyway. Those will remain intact and enhanced. :-)
 
Plus, you know, heated arguments about syntax.
 
@JerryCoffin yeah, or that
 
well
 
9:10 PM
@Puppy That's a bit like calling the big bang "Pre-21st century".
 
it's hard to work on Wide from a tiny netbook in my sister's flat.
 
what? your sister is flat?
 
@Puppy Need to get yourself a place of your own soon!
 
no, my sister possesses a flat
 
Ell
Rust doesn't have exceptions, interesting
 
9:11 PM
@JerryCoffin Yeah, no shit :P
 
GHOSTS?
 
@Sofffia No I think he's just busy with his new job
 
@Ell If they don't have those totally-not-exceptions-we-promise functional exceptions instead, I'm going to cry
 
@JerryCoffin What does "winged" mean in this context?
 
No such thing as functional exceptions.
 
Ell
9:12 PM
> Rust does not include C++-style exceptions that can be caught, only uncatchable unwinding (fail) that can be dealt with at task boundaries. The lack of catch means that exception safety is much less of an issue, since calling a method that fails will prevent that object from ever being used again.

Generally, errors are handled by using a enum of the result type and the error type, and the result module implements related functionality.
 
IIRC, they're totally not exceptions, they just happen to behave pretty much identically.
 
Ell
@Puppy Not really
 
No exceptions in Rust (it’s a recent-ish change).
 
Ell
they don't involve all the stack business stuff do they?
 
the totally not exceptions exceptions I've had described to me pretty much are.
 
Ell
9:13 PM
@Puppy I assume you mean a type which is either an error or the return type?
 
I can’t stress it enough: no exceptions. You can’t have a function that transparently calls or use a piece of code, which failure is handled by the function caller (or higher up).
 
@Cicada Used in shooting to mean "barely hit"--for example, shot a bird and hit a wing just enough to blow off some feathers, but not enough to stop it from flying away. In other words, almost missed.
 
right, and then you do some monadic something so that the error automatically propagates or something, so that the resulting code basically behaves the same as if you'd used exception handling.
 
@JerryCoffin Oooh, interesting. Thanks! :) That pun totally flew over my head... :wink:
 
@Puppy Okay… but you could also do real exception handling, with real exceptions. But not in Rust.
 
9:15 PM
@LucDanton That is definitely suck.
@LucDanton Right, I thought that Haskell also had real exceptions as well as totally-not-exceptions-we-promise.
 
Why all the hype for rust though
 
user1804599
> Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM warning: Exception java.lang.OutOfMemoryError occurred dispatching signal SIGINT to handler- the VM may need to be forcibly terminated
 
user1804599
lolwtf
 
@Puppy Yup, it does.
 
@rightføld It failed to new SIGINT()
 
user1804599
9:16 PM
:D
 
the thing about no exceptions is that most of the time you just end up writing code that does what the compiler's automatically generated EH can do for you.
 
@Cicada Cute.
 
Rust does have some macros in the standard library that allows chaining of failible computations, similar to failible applicatives/monads/effects.
 
if you have a thing that can fail, you have to describe what happens if it fails, no matter what failure mechanism you use.
 
@Puppy To clarify, that may not be a definitive thing for Rust. Because the 1.0 release on the horizon, a lot of stuff has been struck down—but a lot of it is slated to return later, in a principled manner.
 
9:19 PM
hmm
seems to me like you're stuck with everything you release in 1.0
 
A lot of those tentative features also requires some thoughts about the language, so they have to come in order, too. (Feature A requires feature B which requires sane closures etc.)
 
ask the C# guys how much they hate pre-Generics
 
@Puppy That's just not true at all. You can continue blithely on, assuming everything went correctly and simply ignore errors. It was good enough for Fortran, so it's good enough for anybody!
 
lol
 
@Puppy Well, that’s all language-wise. The library is even more tentative, although keep in mind that’s entirely my opinion—I think the language is moving too fast to foresee what it will look like in the future.
 
Ell
9:20 PM
I think having exceptions available and not-exceptions-I-promise both available is the best idea
I feel like exceptions don't work so well for parallel stuff. but that's just a hunch/
 
pre-generics was terrible
 
they still have fundamentally the same problems with parallelism.
which is what do you do if Task A fails whilst you're concurrently running Task B and then what if they both fail or something like that.
with std::exception_ptr you can treat exceptions like values so you can implement pretty much whatever EH strategy you want there.
 
Apparently, cartoonists out-source the lettering
 
not as far as I a\m aware
and we all know that I am now the Repostmaster
 
Think of task failures as non-recoverable assertion failures in Rust. It’s not a reporting mechanism.
 
9:23 PM
FUCK ASSERTION FAILURES.
for most things that I've seen people assert on, anyway.
you get the odd sane assertion but most of them are abuses.
 
They’re ‘done right’ in the sense that they don’t bring the whole process down. Task isolation is a worthy goal, and I think it’s a sane mechanism.
 
@Cicada Mr. Scarf
 
ok that's a lot more sensible.
 
@Puppy HCF covers that nicely.
 
@sehe Hello there thalarctos maritimus
 
9:25 PM
@Sofffia Nah. He changed jobs though AFAIR /cc @Cicada
 
I hate it when the process is brought down
 
@Cicada thalarctos?! since when do we nomenclature in Greek
 
because of a domain error or something else totally recoverable
most conditions I can name that would actually justify terminating the program can't really be reliably asserted on.
 
Ell
aww man rust is downloading llvm again
 
lol
 
Ell
9:27 PM
Repostmaster General
whyy is it getting llvm again
this is why I didn't do it last time, I remember now
 
So, now you have a handful of ambiguous overloads for operator<<. What do. I think the linked approach with a custom streambuf would already be superior. And more performant as it allows buffering individual insertions. — sehe 16 secs ago
TIL:
> ROSE is an open source compiler infrastructure to build source-to-source program transformation and analysis tools for large-scale C(C89 and C98), C++(C++98 and C++11), UPC, Fortran (77/95/2003), OpenMP, Java, Python and PHP applications. Rose@LLNL
 
obtw
could somebody fix the room's name?
 
Any prefs
 
Lounge<C++>
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: The comments and the downvote are a proof that an elitistic, snobbish, condescending, supercilious, cynical mentality is dangerously widespreading in this network undermining its future development. [c++] [c++11] [c++14] [c++-faq]
 
9:31 PM
Only if you promise to vote
 
vote on what, nomic?
 
@Puppy Ah. I hadn't noticed the name had been molested
 
yeah I'm just about to
er
I vote in favour but have no idea what my nomic credentials are.
 
Ell
Is the c++ standard library a "runtime"?
 
@Ell In the strict sense, no.
 
9:34 PM
depends on the implementation and how you would define "runtime"
but not usually.
 
C++ runtime is runtime
 
@Ell It's a stumble-time (as opposed to Java's Crawl-time).
 
Ell
I was just wondering because of this: news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7863714
He says the "base-language" of rust doesn't have a runtime
I'm not really sure what he means
 
that's bullshit
he clearly means "Reflection metadata", rather than "runtime".
 
@Puppy In case it makes you feel better: I’ve checked, and task failure allows you to raise a value which the task spawner receives. So there is some reporting—although it’s done via an equivalent of any, so there isn’t the polymorphism of exception handling.
 
9:37 PM
polymorphism doesn't really interest me that much
also you can do any with polymorphism.
 
Rust’s doesn’t.
@Puppy I’m emphasising the differences with an actual exception system, which allows you to filter out what gets caught/handled.
 
I don't typically find that that's that useful really
 
If you’ve ever caught std::exception const&, you’ve used the feature though.
 
I haven't.
I always use catch(...)
since catching is so rarely useful
 
Ditto if you throw a type derived from a base exception type.
 
Ell
9:42 PM
@Puppy wut
 
@sehe Why not?
 
Ell
why?
why would you catch if you're not going to do something about it? :S
and clearly you can't if you catch everything because you don't know what went wrong
 
@LucDanton I don't really see how that invokes polymorphism, though. Whether or not the thrown type derives from some other type seems like an implementation detail (assuming you don't catch the base type)
@Ell Bullshit.
 
Because a caller can catch. Why else do you bother deriving from a base type?
 
you can often perform useful recovery regardless of what went wrong.
 
9:43 PM
@Ell Probably in the case where you don't want to "retry" or do something optimistic based on what was caught
 
@LucDanton Because why write my own class to store a string and give it out when I can use std::runtime_error.
 
Ell
@Puppy how do you know what to recover if you don't know what failed?
 
@Ell Knowing the exception type != don't know what failed.
 
@Puppy Doesn’t have to use public inheritance for that.
 
you know what block of code threw the exception.
 
9:45 PM
^not true
 
@LucDanton I use public inheritance in such cases purely by habit.
 
Is it a good habit? Would you go out of your way to recommend programmers to do the same? To not do it?
 
in fact, pretty much all derivation from Standard exception classes I do purely by habit instead of for any real reason.
 
Ell
@Puppy you know what block
 
I think that .what() is an exceptionally lazy way to describe an error, barely better than an error code, and often exceptionally useless.
 
Ell
9:47 PM
but knowing what block doesn't tell you the problem still
 
1 min ago, by Luc Danton
Is it a good habit? Would you go out of your way to recommend programmers to do the same? To not do it?
 
It's just part of the diagnostic
 
I use it purely by laziness in the cases where I haven't yet properly considered error handling.
I would not recommend to other programmers to inherit from Standard exception classes.
@Ell You don't care.
 
Ell
@Puppy right. But only because you know what the problem is due to tthe type of the exception
 
if I'm std::vector and I'm reallocating, I don't care why your copy constructor threw, I still know what I have to do - clean up the half-filled buffer and rethrow.
 
Ell
9:48 PM
if you don't know the type of the exception then you must have to care
else you don't know what the problem is
 
I don't care regardless of what the problem is.
you're mistaking catching an exception, and handling an exception.
the two are not the same.
 
Ell
so SomethingWentWrongException is equally as useful as FileNotFoundException ?
 
if you're catching an exception, then yes.
 
Ell
@Puppy you only catch exceptions to handle them, don't you?
 
9:49 PM
no.
you also catch exceptions to, say, rollback half-done work to present a strongly exception safe operation.
or to move the exception to another thread so they can deal with it.
or a thousand other things that don't involve actually deciding what to do about the problem, but just keeping the program state correct and determining who should handle it.
 
Ell
Okay, I understand what you mean
 
and FTR
I've recently grown to despise .NET's FileNotFound exception.
WHICH FILE DID YOU NOT FIND YOU DUMBASS
maybe I just missed the inevitable getter for that one
 
Ell
but you said you always use catch(...), why don't you use catch with a type when you are handling the exception?
 
@Puppy Isn't it an attribute of the exception?
 
oh, I do use catch with a type then, but it's super-rare to actually do that, and when I do, I typically know all the exception types (most derived) in advance.
 
9:52 PM
@Sofffia 'course it is
 
Then what is he complaining about?
 
> The name of the file, or null if no file name was passed to the constructor for this instance.
 
Also DeadMG pls vote
 
well, I said that I may have missed the getter, but it turns out that it's somewhat worthless anyway, since you can throw it without providing a file name
 
That's dum.
 
9:54 PM
@Sofffia A Property, if you want to be more specific.
 
I don't think I've ever needed to check that
I/O errors are heavily localised usually
 
Ell
@Puppy So you super-rarely handle exceptions?
 
yep.
 
Ell
do you handle errors in some other fashion?
 
lol no.
oh, except across the ABI interop boundary in my C API.
but that's pretty inevitable there.
 
9:58 PM
Nobody ever handle exceptions.
 
@Sofffia I try not to. If I have no choice, I definitely wear protective gloves.
 
hmm
how slim are slim reader/writer locks?
 
Ell
@Puppy so you rarely handle any errors that happen at all?
 
@Ell Yes, it's pretty rare that I actually handle errors.
for a console-based application, all errors have the same end destination- print error message to user and terminate program after cleanup.
that necessitates one and exactly one error handling location.
 
@Puppy five foot eight and seven stone.
 
10:02 PM
something akin to try { tokens = lex(); ast = parse(tokens); code = analyse(ast); } catch(parser_error& e) { ... } catch(analyser_error& e) { ... }
man, I have so many things I want to do on the Wide codebase right now this second.
 
@Puppy rtard
 
10:38 PM
Awesome research usenix.org/conference/osdi14/technical-sessions/presentation/… "Torturing Databases For Fun And Profit"
 
This reminds me of that CSV file format I was talking you guys about.
 
@Sofffia COBOL?
Looks like fixed-width records
 
@sehe Cobol what?
 
COBOL records traditionally used this "protocol"
 
Oh, didn't know that.
 
10:42 PM
I've written some middle-ware that still sent this messages in this format over IBM MQ to a mainframe
(Among other systems)
 
user1646075
@Sofffia you mentioned you were also suffering from non-printing bytes?
 
user1646075
ie not between ' ' and '~'
 
@aclarke I never analyzed the file properly, I just took a look at it in the "local computer". I just guessed there might have been some invisible bytes because not all the stored data was readable in those files.
 
Night ;)
 
user1646075
10:52 PM
ciao
 
user1646075
"It does not cover all topics or everything you would find in a complex layout, and it is intended to explain COBOL layouts only so you can use your converted data, not so you can write COBOL programs." <== phew!
 
lol
/cc @CatPlusPlus
 
would have been funnier without NT, XP and VISTA IMO
 
user1646075
 
I attended a talk by Bjarne today :)
 
Ell
10:58 PM
@Borgleader did you see @EtiennedeMartel ?
 
user1646075
@Borgleader ooooooo!
 
@Ell I did not, but he could have been in the audience there were many people there
 
Ell
2 hours ago, by Etienne de Martel
So I just came back from a talk by Bjarne.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I was there too! :D
 

« first day (1452 days earlier)      last day (3497 days later) »