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11:00 AM
@BartekBanachewicz I see, you mean I need an internal state..
 
@Khaled.K no
 
I heard lots of good things about the variadic one
that'll be well attended
 
I'm hoping I'll be able to avoid the "n-ary functor vs n-functor" discussion at CppCon, though :D
Although that was kinda David Sankel's fault :D
 
@BartekBanachewicz don't take it literal, I meant an internal library struct that has a common representaiton..
 
Of course it was.
 
11:01 AM
@Khaled.K no
just a function
 
Why does humanism go hand-in-hand with racist and sexist movements? Shouldn't it oppose these? https://twitter.com/americnhumanist/status/733018944282501120
FFS :(
 
template<>
setPixelGeneric<boost::gil::argb32_view_t>(auto q, byte* b) {
    while(b) q->setPixelColor(x,y, _argb_QColor(255, b+0, b+1, b+2)), b+=4;
}
@Khaled.K ^
put that in that struct as a static function so you don't have to specialize twice
 
@Ven actually, I'm repeating someone else all along. It's like my twitter feed; an infinite lazy list which filters random inputs. Only 0.1% is OC
 
I have no idea how to make two specializations share the same code though, @Griwes will now he's a c++ template wanker after all
 
@BartekBanachewicz Through inheritance?
 
11:04 AM
@blelbach Also I kinda got a preliminary invitation to present it at a User Group in Budapest :D
 
@wilx thats polymorphism I think
 
oh god okay I'm out of this discussion
 
My New Desktop Build!
http://i.imgur.com/Ta91K7i.png
 
@BartekBanachewicz template<typename T, typename std::enable_if<std::is_same<T, foo>::value || std::is_same<T, bar>::value, int>::type = 0> ...
 
11:05 AM
I'm trying to not go into making classes, aka minimize the code
 
Oh wait, that's a function.
 
@Griwes nah
2 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
put that in that struct as a static function so you don't have to specialize twice
 
Can you make it an overload instead of a specialization? :P
 
it's up to @Khaled.K
 
Function template specializations are somewhat troublesome to work with.
 
11:05 AM
IOW they're broken
 
Nope. They just have caveats.
 
I can do it through Concepts too.. lol
 
Like everything in our glorious language
 
2 years later
@blelbach maybe in yours :P
 
@Khaled.K: Yes, you can do it with Concepts in C++30
 
11:07 AM
actually
how does it work in static functions that are members of specialized structs
 
@blelbach I can use concepts to check which types are compatible with which data bits
 
does it magically fix itself
 
@BartekBanachewicz You can partially specialize structures.
 
@Khaled.K: Ah. I was just making a commentary on the death of concepts-as-a-language feature in C++
 
I like how you both answered my question and didn't answer it
 
11:09 AM
You can't partially specialize functions (which is mightly dumb, but eh).
:D
 
@Griwes: It's not dumb
It's unimplementable
 
I think I'm gonna make getPixelGeneric function, make it return a struct which is a common pixel representation, and a setPixelGeneric that use that
 
@Griwes: Think about the overload sets.
 
Ven
@sehe that's what everyone does in life anyways vOv
@blelbach would be so much fun
 
Partial function template specialization terrifies me.
 
11:11 AM
I can accept that in some weird cases there might be problems, alright.
 
@griwes: The rule of thumb is one pattern-matching system per thing.
 
@blelbach More like a C++/D/Rust-fight.
 
Functions already have like three
 
Ven
1 hour ago, by Ven
@blelbach no D? :P
 
But not being able to partially specialize, say, a member function template of a class template on the arguments of the enclosing class template is silly.
 
11:12 AM
@griwes: That I will admit, yes.
@Griwes: Write a paper.
 
Ven
You wouldn't write a paper.
 
@Griwes: Papers for Oulu are due on the 30th.
 
@blelbach This is the C++ version of "patches welcome", really :P
 
Ven
<insert "you wouldn't download a car" music>
 
@Griwes: Yes it is.
 
Ven
11:13 AM
C++ is but Patchwork. Frankenstein's monster must be jelly
 
It's actually probably cheapish to fly to Oulu from Poland
 
@blelbach I might try to submit this, but I'm not sure who to submit it to.
 
@Ven: C++ is a glorious, 2,000 page standard that is without error.
 
Is it Core? Or is it Evolution?
 
Ven
@blelbach the version i'm reading is ~1500 pages only, you're lucky :)
 
11:14 AM
Oh you have paper?
 
@blelbach Kind of. Written in... 2013. :D
 
@Griwes: EWG
 
also a common pixel representation can be useful later on if I decide to have an internal common image representation, or maybe cached thumbnails and syncImageChange that tracks when the source image is changed.. since boost::gil in general is used for image processing purposes
 
@Griwes: You only go directly to core if you file an issue report
 
@ProblemSlover you know you can probably just share this item list instead of screenshotting it...
 
11:15 AM
@Khaled.K "I have two huge image libraries with their own formats - better write a 3rd format"
 
Okay, makes sense.
 
@griwes Seriously look up flights to oulu
 
Does that mean just sending it to Ville, or is there some special mailing address for that stuff?
 
Ven
unsigned short int is the name used inside of the standard for unsigned short?
 
One moment.
 
11:16 AM
@BartekBanachewicz it's not a format, it's just a common representation, since the library basically does not have one .. it process images based on dynamic list of channels
 
6 hours of flight though. :D
(It's absurd, right?)
 
@Khaled.K what's the difference?
 
The normative document describing the process for obtaining a paper number is: isocpp.org/std/standing-documents/…
 
Ven
oh yeah, @Griwes, you're going to uncon?
When's uncon again?
 
Or just send a random vague email to John Spicer and make his life miserable.
 
11:17 AM
@Ven I think it's like the exact weekend before the Oulu meeting? :D
 
@Griwes: 6 hours isn't much
 
Ven
I have no clue, I'm not unconning
 
But I could also present it for you, if you want. Looks intersting.
 
@BartekBanachewicz in boost::gil there are like 999 classes you've to read combined based on image type deduction through template tricks which I do not understand, in this it's going to be just 1 struct that contain supported pixel data
 
@Ven Thought that's not flight to uncon - it's local for me, thought... :P
 
Ven
11:18 AM
yeah
 
@Khaled.K that's exactly what boost classes do
hold pixel data
 
@blelbach I could also try to make a case for that specialization thing, but... I don't know.
 
@sehe Thank you for pointing out. I guess it is
https://www.amazon.com/gp/registry/wishlist/1N444Z0ILH57T
 
I was like this is going to be very easy .. a week ago, when I started surfing its source code
 
@griwes Bjarne would probably yell at you
 
Ven
11:20 AM
that sounds fun
 
Or, worse - agree with you
 
Ven
C++ needs to be more complex.
 
@blelbach That would feel good, though.
If Bjarne yells at you for trying to do something with templates, chances are you are doing the right thing :D
 
You know you're doing the right thing when Bjarne disagrees with you.
 
Ven
Feb 22 at 9:05, by Ven
I want C++ to become as complicated as possible, that means accepting every featureful paper (concepts, modules, operator., reflections, futures/other async stuff, contracts), but only after I changed $work.
 
11:22 AM
No to concepts :P
 
Ven
you don't like concepts?
 
@blelbach Do I smell... mutiny?
 
Ven
that means you enjoy duck typing.
 
Concepts Lite is awful
I love concepts.
 
Accepting concepts right now would mean making the language less complicated!
 
11:22 AM
0x concepts
 
Ven
I never drink Lite
 
We need at least definition checking.
 
Oh, I didn't actually look at your application :| I just assumed you wanted to do what you asked for and no standard algorithm existed (because, you know, why ask :)) — sehe 2 mins ago
When you absent-mindedly ace the answer by not reading the question at all
 
And I'd argue we also need implicit concepts for unconstrained templates :P
 
Also, concepts lite introduced abbreviated template function syntax.
void f(auto x);
BOOM
void f(RandomAccessIterator x);
 
11:23 AM
> LOWEST AVERAGE BISO C++ ISOC FROM: 438.85 PLN
 
BOOM. Another template.
 
lol the meeting hotel prices
 
@griwes You could potentially crash with me. Maybe.
I'd have to downgrade to a twin
 
Ven
@blelbach template<auto T> <- is that a auto type, or auto with concepts? :P
 
That one is kinda evil too
 
Ven
11:25 AM
Oh you, with all these compliments.
 
that is template parameter type deduction or whatever we're calling it
 
That one is evil, but I personally haven't figured out how to make a clear syntax that makes the distinction obvious.
 
contracts are half baked right now
 
(Even if your declarations aren't C declarations, and rather name : type.)
 
modules will happen
 
11:26 AM
@blelbach I love it. I frequently prototype my code with lots of unneeded lambdas just for that
 
operator. I will vote no on.
reflection will happen in C++20, along with modules
 
@blelbach Actually Chandler (which is kinda funny) made some nice argument for it last year in Aspen.
 
reflections is probably a long shot for 20.
for what?
 
operator.
 
Lies, or he realized it was evil afterwards.
He's strongly anti dot
 
Ven
11:28 AM
?
 
Well, at the very least he made it sound far less evil than I thought before that :P
 
It's just like unified call syntax
It adds another weird lookup similar to ADL
 
Ven
UFCS would be much less evil with modules.
 
@Ven: it will be less evil with the new syntax
 
Ven
@blelbach paper link?
 
11:29 AM
Yeah, the syntax absorbed some of its evilness into itself. :P
 
No paper yet for the new syntax
but .x.f().g()
the .x.f() poisons the entire expression
otherwise you have...
 
Ven
leading dot?
 
..x.f().g()
 
Yeah.
 
Or was it .x.f()..g()
 
Ven
11:30 AM
holy molly, that's ugly
 
.x.f()..g()...h()
ambigious parse! But we fixed that with poisoning
I wanted @f(), but there's objective C
 
Ven
should've used unicode triple-dots
 
:D
 
Ven
@blelbach §f() :D
 
lol
f.() would've worked
 
Ven
11:31 AM
but not poison the expression
poisoning the expression is interesting, although...does it apply to the arguments as well? :P
 
🖕a.b()
 
@blelbach Whats wrong with operator. and why cant it be made to work like operator->? (sorry if its a dumb question)
 
Ven
.a.b(c.d()) // is `c.d()` poisoned?
 
but wouldn't have been composable
Borgleader: The issue is that it creates lookup problems.
 
Ven
@Borgleader -> doesn't overload on return types
(AFAIK)
but then, I'm terrible at C++, so what do I know
 
11:32 AM
Classes with operator. mean...
when you see x.f()
1.) Form an overload resolution set for the members of f() according to the regular rules.
 
Ven
so .f(x) can mean x.f(), right?
 
THEN
2.) Form an overload resolution set for all overloads of operator.()
and there was some weird rules with #2
 
Ven
THEN
3.) Form an overload resolution set for UFCS
 
@borgleader Basically any time we have multi-step rules for lookup, we end up with complex systems like ADL (argument-dependent lookup, aka koenig lookup)
@Ven: I believe .f() works, yes
 
Ven
@blelbach wouldn't make sense if it didn't, tbh :P
 
11:35 AM
:p
 
@blelbach You might really want to start using those tiny arrows that point to exact messages, though. :P
 
Ven
I don't find ADL that complex (I know the rules), but the action-at-a-distance factor is always present.
 
Jul 6 '14 at 18:58, by Borgleader
@AaronKyleKilleen Public service announcement
 
@Ven: The complexity is worse on the compiler side of things, mostly.
 
Ven
I find that UFCS in D is much less of a problem, because you know which modules you imported (and in my case, I either list functions I import, or name the import)
 
11:36 AM
@griwes: I don't understand arrow things.
 
@blelbach You click the arrow on the right of the message.
 
@blelbach See public service announcement :)<
 
the french national body has decided that there position is "We liked the original madness of f(x,y) and x.f(y)"
 
Then you get a nice arrow on the left of your resulting message, which you can click to go there.
 
Ven
@blelbach all hail the frenchies (also, "their")
 
11:37 AM
That GIF is flashy and uninformative.
 
Basically all it says is to respond to a message rather than a user, click on the arrow at the right of the message you want to respond to, this inserts :<messageid>
 
Ven
@blelbach At the very right of every message (except yours), there's a "reply" arrow. Messages posted this way have 1.) highlighting to see the context 2.) a "reply to" arrow at their very left
 
... Okay now I've processed this new technology.
 
Ven
@blelbach good :)
 
Anyways @borgleader I hope that kinda answers your question.
 
11:40 AM
@blelbach Ok so, the problem is it complexifies compilation, but it wouldnt screw up anything language wise? Or does ADL get worse if we add operator. because i was under the impression it would fall in the same path as operator->
 
Ven
@Borgleader you can't have multiple operator->, you can have multiple operator., so it's more complex to start with
 
@Ven what do you mean by multiple? like a..b? TIL
 
@Borgleader If we get operator., we introduce a new, complex lookup system similar in nature to ADL. Implementing that system will presumably be tricky, and we currently have 0% experience doing so.
 
@blelbach I wonder how I missed the standing document on submitting papers before - all I could find was the thing from Alisdair about library papers, though the isocpp.org FAQ also doesn't link to this thing...
 
@Borgleader He is referring to the fact that you could have multiple methods returning operator.
@Griwes Our documentation is LITERALLY the worst for wg21 stuff
 
Ven
11:42 AM
@Borgleader no, I mean, class X { A operator.(); B operator.(); }; <- both will be tried
 
@Ven This is intended to allow mix-ins. But it is actually evil.
@Ven Suppose I call X.f()
 
@Ven What happened to not overloading on return type only =/
 
Ven
@blelbach I'm not judging anything, I'm just showing an example here ;)
 
It's really easy to introduce silent behavior changes with this :/
 
Ven
@Borgleader what happened to "no context"? oh yeah, void f() &; void f() &&; :P
 
11:44 AM
I'm judging! :D
Calling X.f() -> check X for .f() methods -> if that fails, form an overload resolution set from all the methods of A and B -> check the new set for .f() methods
here's where it gets fun
 
Ven
@blelbach it makes method resolution NP-hard, really. Much in the same way (x) => x.y in a statically typed language (e.g. C#) is NP-hard.
 
what if A has an operator.
 
Ven
exactly :)
 
What if A has an X operator.();
 
Ven
@blelbach <insert "BURN" gif here>
 
11:45 AM
@Ven Ok so basically the reason operator. is more complicated than operator-> is someone decided to change the rules and allow it to be overloaded on return type otherwise it would have been fine?
 
@Ven :D
@Borgleader It may not have been fine even without that, because of cycles.
 
@Shoe That guy's name is Ilja
 
struct A { B operator.(); }
struct B { A operator.(); }
A.f();
Suppose neither A nor B have .f()
 
Ven
@Borgleader it'd have been much better at least..
 
nwp
11:46 AM
What is w̶r̶o̶n̶g̶ right today? This looks like a room to discuss C++ stuff.
 
The compiler has to find that cycle.
 
Ven
@nwp sorry, we'll get back to offtopic soon
 
nwp
nono, continue
 
Ven
@blelbach TBF, it's not the hardest thing to do. having a special path that tracks dot-coercions only allows if you have operator., and that shouldn't happen very often
What I mean is: it should be easy not to pessimize
 
@Ven Yah.
There's also design arguments against this.
I.e. Do we want to allow people to create transparent proxy types
 
Ven
11:48 AM
I'd like to, yes
 
I would like to create them. But I'm not sure if I would want to let myself create them.
 
@nwp I came here in search of a person and quickly got distracted.
 
Ven
too bad it's shite because it doesn't deal with const/&/&&/override.
@blelbach you can compromise and say "it'd be fixed with reflection", tbh
 
@Ven OH GAWD
@Ven We're not getting that type of reflection :p
Static only
 
Ven
11:49 AM
@blelbach it's not used anywhere, don't worry :P.
(also I said I was bad at C++)
 
@blelbach Ohhhh because f() is called through operator. (regardles of A.f() or A->f()) I see
 
Ven
should probably be decltype(auto), also...
 
rip perfect proxies
 
@Borgleader Yah.
Sadly I think the time to add perfect proxies was during the creation of the language.
Some of these features are hard to tack on because we already spent "complexity" elsewhere.
E.g. if we had chosen to have unified call syntax and operator. from the start, we may have avoided other lookup complexities.
 
Ven
and modules..
 
11:53 AM
We will get modules
Google is already deploying modules
they have to, for business reasons. Or they can't keep compiling and the world falls apart.
The planet literally depends on modules, so we won't screw that up./
 
Ven
C++ features should cost mana. std::vector should be 1 mana, playable on the first turn. Pointers should be 6 mana. volatile should be 20.
 
@Ven hahaha
 
@Ven them volatile green mages
 
Ven
should be nerfed, tbh
 
Or them volatile control-to-absurdity players.
I think my Esper EDH thingy can reach that ;p
 
11:55 AM
@Griwes: Channel-volatile
Oh that's right you play EDH. I'm too type-A for EDH
I am currently loosing badly at modern
 
nwp
how much does template cost?
 
Come to EDH, we have cookies.
 
@Griwes Can I bring my tier-1 legacy deck xD
just for fun, I swear.
 
lol
Well, you can bring your dual lands to EDH, so there's that.
 
Ven
@nwp maybe 4 or 5
 
11:59 AM
@Griwes I've been playing green decks lately. It's... different.
 

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