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7:00 PM
And having a lot of fun.
@Rapptz You never told me python was so much fun. You held out on me!
Confirmation from Professor about project: "You can do literally anything you want, as long as its fun for you."
Incoming vidya.
 
user406009
I am impressed. Cppcon is actually releasing videos early!
 
@ThePhD yeah it's almost like we never talked about any other language
 
@BartekBanachewicz I can't hear you over all that "Haskell".
:D
 
user406009
Python is quite good.
 
Ell
I love Sean Parent
 
7:07 PM
Sean's parents
 
@Elim How much experience do you have with D3D12? What's it like to work with it compared to D3D11?
 
@ThePhD 1.5 years, it has basically nothing in common with D3D11. Fundamental shift in way stuff gets done.
D3D11 & D3D12 stand apart, D3D11 is meant for those who are not interested in the technical, low-level stuff.
 
is there like a way to give things names lol
 
My personal experience has been awesome. It can do so much more, faster and in a more predictable manner (as you're responsible for a lot).
 
type ProgState = (String, Int, Int, [Int], [Int], [Int]) and nextInput ("", 0, 0, [], [1, 2, 3], []) shouldBe` (("", 0, 0, [], [2, 3], []), Just 1)` gets old fast
 
7:11 PM
@ElimGarak Hrm. Maybe I should try to get my hands into D3D12... perhaps it would be a good precursor to Vulkan?
Albeit, before I get into EITHER of those... I want to finish my HLSL -> SPIR-V compiler.
 
I feel like I'm in 7th again and I don't know what loops are so I just if over possible values
 
So that I can use whatever shading language I want with whatever runtime I want.
 
It definitely would be a good way to get ready for Vulkan. They have the same basic aspirations and both kinda spawned from Mantle (Mantle accelerated Microsoft's plans for DX12, at least that's what AMD's Thibieroz told me in our exchanges)
 
@ElimGarak Everyone was thanking Mantle (in the Vulkan talks) for speeding things up.
I just hope AMD deprecates / deletes Mantle after Vulkan comes out so they're not double-supporting APIs.
 
Yes, AMD took matters in their own hands because others were reluctant to do anything. Didn't believe that devs would care about it. Mantle is pretty much dead already, its ashes are sprinkling Vulkan specifically
 
7:13 PM
@ElimGarak They were mostly right: most people on the outside mocked Mantle when it first came out..
 
user406009
Mantle is already deprecated.
 
user406009
I don't even think they officially released any Mantle drivers.
 
user406009
(To consumers)
 
It was used in some gaems, like Battefield. And uhm, Thief
 
user406009
Yes, but the SDK was never released to normal people.
 
That is true, only a select few of us got access to it. :D
 
user406009
@ElimGarak How exactly did you get on the list of people able to access the beta Vulkan and Mantle SDKs?
 
Do you think the feature set of C++ enables you to do functional programming? Or, in what areas do you think the language is most lacking to do genuine fp?
 
user406009
@StackedCrooked The lack of GC makes lambdas much more painful to use.
 
user406009
7:20 PM
Also, there is a huge lack of immutable data structures.
 
Never really felt the need for GC when using lambdas..
 
user406009
It mainly becomes an issue when you are trying to capture things.
 
@Lalaland Seems to be mostly an issue for lack of libraries, rather than core language deficit?
 
@Lalaland You could apply for developer access if you have a company and have something to show of merit (graphics tech mostly). Personally, I was involved with Microsoft and DirectX 12 and there I met Nick Thibieroz (really cool guy) after scolding AMD's driver side and the fact they messed up in early DX12 support (we didn't have drivers for AMD until Q1 2015 and even then preliminary). So, Nick contacted me and we had a little chat and he invited me to access Mantle and then glNext/Vulkan.
 
user406009
@StackedCrooked Yes, but libraries are important.
 
user406009
7:23 PM
@ElimGarak Interesting, thanks.
 
Boost phoenix has some cool stuff.
 
@Lalaland You also have to sign generic NDAs which forbid you from discussing anything and threaten you with a lot of stuff, so that's why there have never been any big leaks in that regard. Microsoft has its own and all IHVs separate ones.
 
user406009
@ElimGarak Yep. I can totally understand.
 
We couldn't even post screenshots of stuff that was based on DX12 during that period unless it was sanctioned by Microsoft. Which was a bit strict, but understandable, Microsoft didn't want people to create a false image of DX12 (bloated or underwhelming).
 
user406009
@StackedCrooked That library seems mostly useless now with easy lambdas.
 
user406009
7:26 PM
Laziness is cool, but not that useful IMHO.
 
user406009
And we still don't have fundamental stuff like immutable std::map.
 
One cool thing I've heard about it is the late instantiation.
You can create composite function objects, and at the time of invocation the actual instantiation occurs.
Enabling deep inlining.
Or something like that..
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked No. Immutability is too difficult to achieve in C++, and many things are too verbose.
 
You can approximate it.
 
user1804599
Mutability in C++ is less of a problem than in C# and Java (because of copying and moving). Rust gets it right.
 
7:29 PM
@StackedCrooked uhhh... you get that from that one talk where he talked about copying and keeping history ^^?
 
@Griwes Yes
 
@ScarletAmaranth Yeah, it was more about value types than immutability.
 
user1804599
Because Rust allows only one pointer to a value if at least one pointer to it is pointer-to-mutable.
 
@StackedCrooked riight - but I am not sure you can generalize that to approximating immutability in Photoshop, come on :P
 
user1804599
So you don't get spooky action at a distance.
 
7:32 PM
lol this talk by 2 people feels so much like acting. They're talking as if they were reading or playing or advertisement. And they're saying like one line each it's ridiculous
Looks like a YT video or something but live
Fucking salesmen
 
user406009
@AndyProwl Name of the talk?
 
I liked how Herb was talking to the VS guy... "let's hope public humiliation shan't ensue and this actually works"
 
@Lalaland Something about a GUI library called CopperSpice
 
@ScarletAmaranth Well, he had the balls to do a live demo, which when you're betting on VS is a HUGE risk.
 
Hahaha this format is hilarious @Griwes come for lolz
 
7:36 PM
nah
 
@ThePhD live demo? the examples were prepared beforehand and he modified like a single line (which I am sure they had tried before as well)
 
So irritating I can't resist any longer
Left the room
 
user406009
RAGE QUIT
 
user1804599
imagine you were a fool
 
user1804599
now accept it as reality
 
user1804599
7:37 PM
fool
 
@elyse If loving you is foolish I don't ever want another reality. <3
 
I so much feel like not even googling CopperSpice
 
user406009
It's a Qt fork?
 
Sort of
Works without moc etc.
 
user406009
Lol
 
user406009
7:40 PM
> Qt 4.8 framework
 
user406009
Already severely behind the normal Qt.
 
lol
and there I was, thinking it can be a sane project from the talk's description
lol
 
It's definitely not a sane talk
Never seen so much acting
 
No, I mean sane library, not sane talk :P
but if it's just a Qt fork... meh
 
Yeah I got that
I just felt like ranting a bit more about these people's attitude
Too bad the talks are not live streamee
 
user1804599
7:44 PM
@Lalaland you are a Qt!
 
Seriously, what the actual fuck? VS/MSVC just went full retard and completely omitted calling the implicitly dec/defined destructors until a rebuild happened.
 
Loke GoingNative
*like
 
*GoingNaïve
 
@ElimGarak VC++ is a monster.
 
user1804599
GoingManaged
 
user1804599
7:46 PM
much better
 
user406009
@AndyProwl Just have to wait for the youtube videos.
 
Well, htis is stupid.
Instead of using glGet to fetch Sampler parameters
 
@Lalaland yeah, but it's not the same thing
I can't rant live with you guys
 
With using the glGetIntegeri version to specify the sampler object index
they instead created several new functions, glGetSamplerParameter
Thanks, OpenGL. Thanks for ruining the system you've conditioned me to use.
Wankers.
 
OpenGL can't go away soon enough. Also, I still have no idea what the fuck happened with MSVC back there. I hate these random mishaps.
 
user406009
7:51 PM
@ElimGarak Just gotta wait for salvation
 
@elyse *GoingRetard
 
user1804599
XD
 
@AndyProwl Email them and express how much you hate them
 
As soon as they match up with the VC++ ABI, I am jumping ship with my entire family.
 
7:53 PM
Same.
 
me too
 
Well, actually.
Wait, I change my mind.
 
but by jumping ship I mean bootstrapping Wide
 
I love my debug tools too much.
So I need to wait for exceptions to be compatible, AND for debug information to be as good as MinGW's.
THEN I'll jump all the ships and bootstrap MIEngine in VS with the DWARF information from clang++.
 
"This is dynamic memory" what... — Borgleader 12 secs ago
 
7:54 PM
Dynamic is a buzzword
 
user406009
I love how half of that page is just accusing ms of being noncompliant with the standard.
 
@Lalaland Which page?
 
Your compiler is shit if fix-by-restart works. I don't even...
 
@BartekBanachewicz as in std::future? I think I've decided against those when I needed to start a design in 2013. I felt scheduling wasn't ready. Or I wasn't up to the task of adding executors myself on top of promises. I opted for the asio way, with completion handlers
 
@Borgleader Removed :( Wait, there it is.
 
float * s;
s = &(p*i/12*100);
^ Gold.
 
user1804599
@Lalaland people who write C++ implementations are insane.
 
@AndyProwl lol. I'd love to look at it just to feel with you
 
@AndyProwl ahahahah
 
cpx
8:02 PM
@ElimGarak Does it compile?
 
My first answer on SO was a Python question.
Fun fact etc.
 
@Borgleader Thank you, your answer is a great help. :| — J.G 3 mins ago
No OP is mad at me lol
 
cpx
@Rapptz Luckily, Mine was C Plus Plus!
 
8:05 PM
my 2nd one was C++.
And.. the rest.
I'm pretty sure I only have 1 Python answer.
 
cpx
The first book I read on C++ was on Turbo C++. It was outdated and terrible.
 
Guise, why can't I be mean like Cat? :D
 
why would you want to be
 
Good point.
 
I am a good point.
 
cpx
8:08 PM
But my favorite so far was C++ Primer by Stanley Lippman.
 
@ElimGarak Apple could not just for backwards compatibility taken the smaller icon, and centered it? x.x
 
Yeah I checked.
the 3rd one is [c++][python]
and the second one is just bad. deletes
 
@Rapptz Doesn't matter. It still counts. I even have 27 PHP answers... (Oh, I probably shouldn't admit that in public).
 
"I know it's a stealth mission, but you never know what you might run into down there." gives grenade launcher
Boss fight confirmed.
 
cpx
8:11 PM
The C++ book was recommended to me by this SO question otherwise I couldn't have found it.
 
we maintain that list
lol
 
cpx
Effective C++ and Exceptional C++ and so forth...
 
@cpx C++ Primer was how I learnt C++ back in the day.
 
@cpx My first C++ book...was out of print ~20 years before SO existed.
 
cpx
More Exceptional C++ lol.
@JerryCoffin Was it turbo C++ as well?
 
8:13 PM
@cpx No. Turbo C++ is a compiler not a book.
But yes, my first C++ compiler was Turbo C++ 1.0.
Though of course, by anything approaching modern standards, that wasn't really even close to C++.
 
@sehe "completion handlers" sound like callbacks. JS community has learned the hard way that they don't really work out.
 
cpx
I wasn't aware of C++ Standard until I joined SO.
 
@sehe Windows does much the same thing with IOCompletionPorts
@BartekBanachewicz I think callback handlers are effective at the lower-levels, but needs a nicer higher-level concept or glue to keep it going.
 
I am going through so much effort to access the location of one single curly brace.
oh well.
 
cpx
8:16 PM
Seeing the guys quoting their answers in my SO question all over from C++ Standard.
 
lol I was afraid it would open that rebecca video
 
cpx
I believe the real C++ experience that I got came from joining this room.
 
2
A: Error when explicitly converting a template non-type parameter

Marco A.This answer assumes C++11 or higher Two issues here: 1) No derived-to-base conversion for non-type template parameter [temp.arg.nontype]/p1 For a non-type template-parameter of reference or pointer type, the value of the constant expression shall not refer to (or for a pointer type, shall...

 
your mother came when joining this room too
 
8:20 PM
Classy
 
@MarcoA. Isn't he just using superbogus syntax or am I missing something
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I am super classy.
 
Ah wait no
I was missing something
 
@AndyProwl I wouldn't call it "good code" though
 
@BartekBanachewicz :c
 
8:21 PM
But waif
 
... there's more!
 
@AndyProwl u
 
Wait, can you have a ref/ptr non-type arg with automatic storage duration
 
no.
 
What's a ref/ptr non-type arg?
 
8:22 PM
Thought so
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ The Ultraginsu knife actually gets sharper as you use it to slice through solid steel bars!
 
You mean non-ref/non-ptr type arg?
 
no.
 
@Jeff see Marco's link
 
fuck.
I want a recursive lambda right fuckin' now.
 
8:23 PM
I'm on mobile it's slow I need to take shortcuts
 
cpx
@JerryCoffin I believe it was this one or similar: amazon.com/Turbo-Complete-Reference-Herbert-Schildt/dp/…
 
So you mean non-type template arg.
Makes sense
 
GLint glint = 0;
GLuint& gluint = reinterpret_cast<GLuint&>(glint);
Glorious type punning master race.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I know this. I just decided for it back then.
 
UB bitch
 
8:23 PM
@cpx You're accusing me of buying a Herbert Schildt book? Seriously?
 
Also, js buffs would probably say it worked out.
 
@JerryCoffin :)
 
@Jeff Yes. It was a discussuon about templates so that was sort of in the context
 
The evidence is overwhelming
 
@JerryCoffin Clearly, your code is all bullschildt
 
8:24 PM
> A template-argument for a non-type template-parameter shall be a converted constant expression

plus

> An entity is a permitted result of a constant expression if it is an object with static storage duration
and quotefail
 
Yeah
 
@StackedCrooked lel
 
cpx
I don't follow Turbo C++ anymore :D
 
@Marco nice answer
 
@cpx "follow"?
 
8:25 PM
ty, I stumbled on the same issue some time ago
 
And then Bjarne says you don't need to care about the details of the standard to use c++
Proof: SO
 
if you want to get all sort of UB and errors.. sure
 
Well more like counterproof
 
[]( auto x ) { } <--- allowed in a function
 
@Puppy Obviously not. Since it is clear, it can't be bullschildt.
 
8:27 PM
@ThePhD why not
 
template <typename T> void f ( T x ) { } <--- not allowed in a function
My tears.
 
yeah
 
Every time a general rule arises amongst all the exceptional cases in the C++ standard, the committee lights a candle.
 
lits jumeaux
 
@AndyProwl To be honest more than half of the times the standard is quoted on SO is merely because standard quotes bring many more upvotes.
 
user3790646
8:28 PM
Hello @sehe
 
@ThePhd consistenc++
 
And the times you actually need to quote the standard is because OP is doing something weird.
 
The thing is I want to specify the return type of this local function with a template parameter.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Not sure if half but yes that's true
 
cpx
@sehe I already lost the book a long ago. I cannot know for sure if it was really bullschildt or not.
 
8:28 PM
I kind of agree with Bjarne on that.
 
Although the other half still remains
 
But the only way to do it is to provide a dummy parameter to the function call.
 
And it's not a small half
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Gratuitous Standard Quotes
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ yeah, everyone learned that from litb (Schaub, how was he called?)
 
8:29 PM
... Or, perhaps...
 
Johannes
 
right
 
Johannes's quotes were rarely gratuitous IME
 
int z;
auto test = []( auto x ) { };
test<int>( z ); // possible?
 
cpx
Is he still active on SO?
 
8:30 PM
I mean, they fit well with the answer, but they are really not required.
 
@ThePhD no
 
@AndyProwl ...nor were most in answers to his questions.
 
Dear lord I feel like shit.
 
user3790646
@ThePhD No.
 
@AndyProwl q_q mah tears
 
8:30 PM
@AndyProwl No, but he did select only questions that really required them.
 
Had too much to drink yesterday.
 
Operator is templated, not type
 
Oh, right.
... Damnit.
 
I'm a bit suspicious of OP's about page: I am the author of Quantum++, a C++11 library for simulation of universal quantum computing.
 
user3790646
@ThePhD I was going to say exactly what Andy said
 
8:30 PM
@cpx why are you talking about that now?
 
@cpx He still seems to stop by every once in a while, but certainly not very active at all.
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ You're actually much healthier when you drink. The hangover is your body's reaction to having to return to an unhealthy state.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ wrong, IMO
The standard is quoted to lend authority to an answer (and rightfully, that gets recognition).
 
My impression is just that if you want to write good correct c++ you have to understand the standard at least to some extend, unless you're doing really trivial stuff - and then even in that case I'm not sure
 
Because, if there is not "horses' mouth" reference in the answer, it's too hard to tell expert answers from Vlad answers on the internet.
 
@JerryCoffin That's actually an interesting point of view
 
8:33 PM
*extent
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ We all know alcohol is a disinfectant (e.g., rubbing alcohol). The reason you feel good when you drink is that the alcohol is disinfecting your body and mind.
 
@Jerry people in Czech Republic fight morning hungover with more beer
Not kidding
 
@AndyProwl I fight morning hangover by never waking up before noon (I wish).
 
That does not even help me lol
It usually takes me a full day to completely recover
I've become a noob drinker
 
@AndyProwl I disagree. My code's fine, and I don't understand the standard at all.
 
8:35 PM
I wanna get drunk some time.
 
@AndyProwl yes, but it's still not morning hangover as long it happens after noon.
@ThePhD Not much of an ambition.
 
if you're an expert.
well it's pretty fuckin' easy
 
@Jerry your last sentence about c++ contains a truth and a lie :P
 
@AndyProwl All right--but my code's sort of all right, anyway.
 
I'm sure it is
 
8:39 PM
"Fine" wasn't so much a lie as just an exaggeration.
 
Hint that was not the lie
Peopleware is a great book
 
Ell
lol I'm glad you guys said no to pwoer hour
it's harder than it sounds
a lot harder
 
8:55 PM
@Ell Especially that first beer. At least after a dozen or so, you can't taste it any more, but the first one's gotta just suck!
 
user1804599
If you love C++ error messages you should check out Scala's.
 
user1804599
[error] C:\Users\elyse\o2\src\main\scala\o2\DeclID.scala:25: type mismatch;
[error]  found   : List[(B.DeclAnn[?A1], String, o2.TyExpr[o2.DeclID.DeclAnnDeclID[?A1]])] where type ?A1 <: A (this is a GADT skolem)
[error]  required: List[(B#DeclAnn, String, o2.TyExpr[B])]
[error]                 FunctionDecl[B](B.DeclAnn(new DeclID, ann), name, params2, body2)
[error]                                                                   ^
 
user1804599
> this is a GADT skolem
 
user1804599
what does that even mean
 
google
 
8:57 PM
@elyse Translated into normal English, it says: "stay away from Scala".
 
and use ruby
 
@Ell More relevantly, there are absolutely no upsides whatsoever.
 
@ThePhD like, uh, promises
You can't abstract over a synchronicity with typical methods
 
@BartekBanachewicz What's the difference between a promise and a future?
 

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