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3:00 PM
@EtiennedeMartel curious what his original critique was
 
Programmers are dumb tool fanboys for whatever reason
 
probably that only his own opinion is of any value
 
He's right
Writing C correctly is extremely hard
2
 
Yes, that's correct
But maybe the line about old programmers, less so?
 
Not really
 
3:03 PM
@Mr.kbok is this the "learn-the-hard-way" writer?
 
That's just bullshit
@sehe Yeah
he's a flame machine
like torvalds with additional nonsense
 
Is he participating in some kind of a discussion then/
 
It's a response so clearly he already had to fight these idiot C fanboys
People learn something badly and then defend it even when it makes no sense
 
cpx
Why learn C the hard way?
 
Yes he had to mail a few idiotic C fans who don't even code in C, and proceeded to make a statement about "old programmers" and the whole programming community
 
3:06 PM
I like the idea of "learning the hard way". But I only take that to mean "invest real time, don't expect shortcuts"
 
@cpx There's no other way
 
@Mr.kbok hehe. I like how you recognized that rendering an unbiased summary would be better than linking facts :)
 
The other way is to learn C++ and forget everything useful
 
I don't think I miss much
 
Programming community is all dumb nerds and I've seen that nonsense happen even here
 
user406009
3:08 PM
@cat What nonsense in particular?
 
...
 
@sehe Cat read it too. There's no biasing summaries here.
 
cpx
I guess I learned it the easy way using a IDE.
 
@Mr.kbok cough. I'll leave then since I'm clearly not supposed to read any of this
 
IDE really doesn't make any difference in learning a language
 
3:09 PM
@BartekBanachewicz hm in the end I'm not sure this is more readable than the first version
wordsBackToInt :: [Word8] -> Int
wordsBackToInt w = fst $ foldl (\ (a1, a2) x -> (a1 + formula x a2, a2 - 1)) (0, 4) w
  where formula num pow = ((fromIntegral $ toInteger num) - 33) * (85^pow)
 
@AlexM. in the back end?
 
@AlexM. It's not
 
@Lalaland Haskell
 
Whatever the first version was
 
@CatPlusPlus This again?
 
cpx
3:09 PM
Is there actually a hard way or the language itself is hard?
 
@sehe I'm not trying to argue based on an article the other party didn't read.
 
@sehe I'm not going to make a point by meticulously quoting all the parts I'm talking about
Also I don't think this piece deserves any more effort
 
Sipping on gin & juice
 
@ElimGarak IDE will not help you learn semantics
 
cpx
3:11 PM
should be "teaching it the hard way".
 
Or even syntax
 
I mean, the ridicule of the hardcore C idiot guy was discussed previously today.
 
@CatPlusPlus I think the debugger helps.
 
Debugger helps in debugging
 
meh
 
3:13 PM
It's raining outside, it's cold and I'm kinda depressed
 
cpx
Is it normal to spend a whole day debugging something or do I need some kind of design tool to plan every bit of logic in it?
 
you're learning the hard way :)
 
Your tools are shit hth
 
@cpx a design tool will never prevent debugging
 
I just woke up and I already regret it
 
3:14 PM
@Mr.kbok :D I'm not joining then :)
6 mins ago, by sehe
I don't think I miss much
@Mr.kbok shhh. Don't tell the UML disciples
 
lol, uml
 
precisely
 
user406009
UML sucks
 
@TonyTheLion got any new hilarious gifs? I need a pick-me-up
 
There are sites that will satisfy your needs
 
cpx
3:16 PM
Some UML can be good for high level abstraction but it sucks if you over-do it.
 
So is a piece of paper.
Just found this again, going to use that to cheer myself up
 
@cpx Wrong! UML is like violence: the only cure for too much is even more.
 
@cpx Yeah. Well. Sad observation: the whole UML "ideology" is based around the idea that UML is more than a set of documentation tools/conventions
 
user406009
@cpx yeah, but must uml tooling is designed for you to write your code in uml.
 
user406009
Most*
 
3:18 PM
> Such a type would be extremely useful for me. This is exactly what I want most of my optional<bool>'s and optional<int>'s to be. src
 
user406009
@ElimGarak watch Andy's Hitler video.
 
@Lalaland up arrow cough cough
 
@Lalaland Problem is, in nearly every case it works out in reverse: UML is a horribly inefficient way to generate code (and the most efficient way to generate UML is to write the code, then "reverse engineer" UML from it).
 
@sehe watching from a distance, are we? Yeah, I don't think you miss much either
 
user1804599
3:19 PM
appelfap
 
@elyse wat
 
user1804599
fapfapap
 
user1804599
fapple
 
is schlick still a thing?
 
cpx
Native C++ code is much easier to interpret than silly UML diagrams.
8
 
3:20 PM
what about native C code?
 
@Mr.kbok precisely. It's newsfeed-by-lounge-proxy
@cpx That's nice irony.
 
user406009
@sehe I would argue that the complexity cost isn't worth the benefit in most cases. Still interesting though.
 
@cpx If your diagram is supposed to accurately reflect the C++ though, that is exactly spot on
 
@edition Pretty hard to show (for one obvious example) inheritance in C.
 
So. Use the UML conventions to outline the design and some technical details.
 
3:26 PM
@sehe ...but only use the simplest parts of UML, because lots of what it depends on is so subtle that (for the obvious example) on a whiteboard it's almost impossible to be sure whether an arrow-head was intended to be drawn as hollow or filled in (or possibly a diamond instead of an arrow).
 
user406009
Another issue is that uml rarely captures what you actually care about. I care much more about the life cycle of a request than they relationships between my classes.
 
@JerryCoffin let's not even mention the semantics of all these scary looking pictograms of surgical implements :)
The 118 different types of aggregation relations. And the way to indicate a behavioral classifier (as opposed to, say, a type or a class)
I'm sure UML standards (?) have been designed to make parallel taxonomy hierarchies look nice.
 
woudl taht fucntion 3 words, 3 typos
 
"Woot! That fuckton" (typos fixed) — sehe just now
 
Nevermind the typos, what is the poet trying to say?
> Secondly... what woudl taht fucntion There is rehash().
wat
 
3:33 PM
Who cares. It's about aesthetics, not meaning.
 
@Lalaland Everything ever can be seen as "not doing too much more than just storing and retrieving simple data"
 
@ElimGarak I think he means something like: "What function would you use for that purpose? There is rehash(), but..."
 
Google search is storing and retrieving simple data
 
@CatPlusPlus And at some point, all data is simple. So when you get down to it, all programs are really the same.
 
The tech, soft real-time constraints, scaling and serving large amounts of traffic is what creates complexity, even if you think the business logic is simple (it's never that simple, hence why estimations tend to be shit)
 
3:35 PM
Yeah, we should just stop writing programs altogether. Botany, anyone?
 
@JerryCoffin I know right
Everything is atoms therefore
 
@ElimGarak Those plants all depend on DNA, so they're all really the same too...
 
I so hate these idiotic reductions
 
@CatPlusPlus I find them quite humorous.
 
SO is just storing and retrieving simple data that's why it probably runs into tens of thousands of LOC
 
3:37 PM
@JerryCoffin yesh
@ElimGarak Pretty sure that's illegal in most countries.
 
Then again, I saw a bunch of people out marching around in pink shirts on my way into work today. I'm not sure if they're marching to raise money, or demonstrating against people doing medical research--but I think it's pretty funny either way.
 
Yeah, goddamn medical research. Posioning our childrne.
 
at the moment science and mathematics seem more relevant than programming.
 
Lovely
 
@edition Hint: They've always been.
 
3:39 PM
Distributed systems are hard and entirety of web is just that
But I'm sure "most" apps are just CRUDs made over weekend yeah
 
Physicists and mathematicians pretty much spawned programming.
 
user406009
@edition not much money in that.
 
user406009
@CatPlusPlus it's the polish and user experience that makes SO very good.
 
Also pulling bullshit ballpark estimations out of your ass is definitely not ~~~appeal to self authority~~~ (yeah who needs actual experience with the shit they're talking about)
@Lalaland Have you fucking seen any web backend
Or SO backend in particular since you seem to have strong opinions about what is there
 
@ElimGarak yes, I know.
 
3:42 PM
"Polish and user experience" is not the property of a backend
It's the UI
 
user406009
Yes. I have worked on a couple. I have not seen the SO backed though.
 
And we're not talking about UX at all
 
@Lalaland Where "very good" really just means "Slightly less crappy than most". Let's face it: SO still sucks pretty badly (though, in fairness, some of that is by intent, from placing higher value on what matters to them than to regular users).
 
user406009
I just think you are underpaying the role of front end work for product success.
 
@Lalaland that backend is not trivial. Although it could probably run on muuuuuuch lighter hardware if they improved the design :)
 
3:43 PM
I don't care about frontends jesus
They're not relevant to this
 
@CatPlusPlus Well, sort of--but in a lot of cases, the back end is part of what hobbles the front-end developers (e.g., inability to get the data they need in a form they can use).
 
Interesting design. For interplanetary travel only, tho. Would require separate landers.
 
user406009
@ElimGarak Kyrostat renders?
 
Kerbal Space Program, the sim.
 
"Most backends are trivial~~~~" talking about backends "Well you're just underplaying the role of frontend in successful products"
Fucking Lounge discussions
 
3:50 PM
^
 
It's human nature, in most people's minds, putting what they like on the pedestal requires putting something else down. I kinda appreciate everything.
 
user406009
@CatPlusPlus You started the discussion by claiming that frontends were boring and repetative.
 
user406009
I was just countering that they are very important to product success.
 
@ElimGarak Part of it is basic human nature--but part is that we know a lot more of the niggling details and ugliness of the things we do, so we're almost always comparing the reality of what we do (in all its ugliness) to kind of an idealized notion of what other people do.
 
Good evening all
 
4:04 PM
Hiya
 
I seem to have a problem when compiling the following program: gist.github.com/anonymous/ddcb3d3507d77e458e18
 
@Lalaland I think he has a good point in general. Yes, once in a while you see something like SO that (even now, years later) graduates write papers about, other sites discuss, and so on. At the same time, the vast majority of front-ends are some variation of a basic form that displays labels, and next to them the data from that field of the database, let's the user edit, then click a button to save the edited version.
 
@rubin.kazan I suggest you (a) read the message (b) read a book
 
@sehe what message (;
@sehe I was actually following a program from the book
 
user406009
@rubin.kazan Which book?
 
4:06 PM
The book surely has int main()
inb4 bullschildt
 
No it only uses main()
For the first few
 
Burn the book
 
user406009
@rubin.kazan Return that book.
 
user1804599
hi
 
lo
 
user1804599
4:06 PM
hans kazan
 
@Lalaland the Book is Programming in C Second Addition by Brian Kerningham & Dennis Ritchie
 
@rubin.kazan all of them. You don't actually need to make sense of the words. Just feed them into google, first hit: stackoverflow.com/questions/8440816/…
 
user406009
I believe that book is heavily outdated.
 
user406009
The code you wrote would have compiled ~30 years ago.
 
No need to believe that.
That's a fact.
 
4:08 PM
LOL
 
4269
Q: The Definitive C++ Book Guide and List

grepsedawkThis question attempts to collect the few pearls among the dozens of bad C++ books that are published every year. Unlike many other programming languages, which are often picked up on the go from tutorials found on the Internet, few are able to quickly pick up C++ without studying a well-written...

Dunno about corresponding list for C, but it might exist
 
user406009
@rubin.kazan Look at the publish date. K&R C is a decent book, but heavily outdated.
 
user1804599
What is Windows Modules Installer Worker?
 
user406009
@rubin.kazan Anyways, your actual issue is that you have a typo.
 
@Lalaland It /was/ a decent book.
 
user406009
4:12 PM
You wrote flcose instead of fclose
 
@elyse it's like msiexec for merge modules, I guess
 
@Lalaland Thank you, that was very silly of me.
 
@Lalaland it's one of at least 3 issues though
 
user406009
@rubin.kazan Note that your code is still invalid for a modern C99 compiler. I would at least consider getting a book that follows C99.
 
Thank god we have Howard
 
4:13 PM
Use C++
@AndyProwl what did he save today?
 
@Lalaland I have been following programming in C third addition by stephen kechan i think
 
user1804599
@AndyProwl Curry–Howard isomorphism.
 
@sehe dates and time zones
 
@Lalaland I was just a bit stuck so wanted to use a different resource :)
 
user1804599
4:14 PM
@AndyProwl If its API is not highly similar to that of Noda Time, it sucks.
 
Well he did that a few months ago but that's what the talk is about
 
@AndyProwl ugh. "observable fields". That's. accessors
 
@elyse ok
 
@AndyProwl Yeah I've seen it before I think
 
4:16 PM
hi. I've read that inline functions slightly breaks encapsulation? How? Will someone explain it clearly that how it is possible?
 
There was a post on isocpp a few months ago yep
 
@PravasiMeet their definition needs to be visible in the header file
 
@sehe: ya I know it
 
user406009
@PravasiMeet Changing the function requires recompiling all of the user code.
 
@Lalaland: right.
 
4:18 PM
@PravasiMeet so. What is the question again?
 
@sehe: I've read that inline functions slightly breaks encapsulation? How? Will someone explain it clearly that how it is possible?
 
Ell
ugh balls
decisions
 
They do not break encapsulation, they only add physical dependencies. You'll need to recompile clients when you change implementation details in the definition of an inline function.
 
user406009
The issue is that people have different ideas of what is considered "encapsulation".
 
@Ell ?
 
user406009
4:20 PM
Some people believe that recompiling when the implementation changes is considered a break of encapsulation.
 
Ell
to buy a new phone screen or new phone?
I've already spent £30 on phone screen then broke it again two days later
 
@PravasiMeet It's mostly nonsense, or at least based on a rather silly definition of the terms. You pretty much have to put the full definition of a inline function into a header, so anybody reading the header can see what it does. In reality, that's not so much a problem with inline functions per se as it is a problem with headers though.
 
@AndyProwl: But the 2nd answer (most upvoted) in stackoverflow.com/questions/145838/… says that it slightly breaks your encapsulation.
 
> This API is very self-consistent
How dare you add consistency to C++?
 
user406009
4:21 PM
@PravasiMeet That person clearly believes that compile time dependencies break encapsulation.
 
user406009
Note his preference for the PIMPL pattern.
 
user406009
And it is a valid complaint when you are trying to enforce ABI compatibility.
 
@Lalaland: What does he mean by compile time dependencies? Dependencies between whom?
I'll have to read about PIMPL pattern not familiar about this.
 
@PravasiMeet What he calls 'encapsulation' is not what I call 'encapsulation'. I think he's misusing that term
 
user406009
@PravasiMeet Here is a good practical example to make things more clear.
 
user406009
4:23 PM
Imagine you have a dynamically linked library.
 
user406009
Users of that library want to be able to update that library without recompiling their code.
 
user406009
If you have an inline function, that function cannot be changed without forcing users to recompile.
 
which is dumb
 
user406009
Similarly, if you don't use the PIMPL pattern you also force users to recompile.
 
user406009
Whenever you change the private members of a class.
 
4:24 PM
Updating a dependency requires testing your software anyway so rebuilding is not an issue
 
@PravasiMeet Dependencies between source files that use (for example) some class, and the header(s) that define that class.
 
@JerryCoffin: ok got it
 
user406009
@Mr.kbok There are arguments on each side.
 
@Lalaland: Thanks got it
 
user406009
@PravasiMeet Andy is correct. Most people don't consider compile time dependencies as breaking encapsulation.
 
Ell
4:26 PM
you know I might just buy a new phone
 
user406009
@Mr.kbok I think the best pro ABI-compatibility argument is when they fix security bugs in stuff like libpng.
 
user406009
You want to roll out that update ASAP.
 
user406009
And sometimes you can't recompile.
 
@JerryCoffin: why std::array doesn't decay to pointer like C style arrays?
 
user406009
Because decaying is usually not what you want.
 
4:27 PM
Basically, it comes down to the fact that in theory, clients of a class should only need re-compilation when/if the class' interface changes. With inline functions (among other things) you need to re-compile them just because you changed the implementation, even though the interface remains constant. And yes, when used correctly, Pimpl can avoid that (but generally gives slower execution in exchange for reduced compilation).
 
user406009
Use std::array::data to get the array.
 
@Lalaland: but C style array decays implicitly to pointer when passing to functions.
 
@PravasiMeet Why would it?
 
user406009
@PravasiMeet Most people think that's bad.
 
@Lalaland This is an extremely specific use case of a platform C library. I agree that it is desirable in this case, but I disagree that it is a best practice.
 
4:28 PM
@PravasiMeet Because most of the reason it exists is to avoid decaying to a pointer every time you look at it.
 
^ array decay is annoying and bad
 
@Lalaland It's like how boost supports extremely ancient compilers, so they rely on a bunch of macro dispatching for more modern C++ features. I'm really glad they do that, so I can upgrade progressively our older projects, but I wouldn't want a desktop app programmer to do that.
 
Nice
 
If you break ABI between bugfix versions you're bad at programming
 
user406009
@Mr.kbok Yep. I agree with you. Library programming and application programming are different tasks with completely different requirements.
 
user406009
4:30 PM
For instance, the cost of dependencies is much higher when writing a library.
 
@AndyProwl No ISO date format? That's really really bad.
 
user406009
Trying to use the same coding style for both is foolish and counterproductive.
 
13 mins ago, by sehe
@PravasiMeet their definition needs to be visible in the header file
 
@Lalaland Exactly.
 
@Morwenn ok
I'm happy with this
 
4:31 PM
@PravasiMeet I meant to say if you know the answer, you don't need to ask it...
 
Fancy operator overloading is very important
rubby meets C++
 
rub++
 
You don't have to use it
 
@Ell wow. That's breaking the phone's encapsulation
 
I think it's nice too, but also overkill
 
user1804599
4:32 PM
Haskill
 
1970-jan-3 woudn't be harder to implement and it's ISO format :p
 
You don't need a special syntax for constructing second-durations
 
@Morwenn you can do that
 
It should be the default.
 
4:33 PM
C++ has a very high level of consistency, really.
The fact is that there's so much detail that it still leaves ample room for a shitload of quirks
 
The 3 formats used in the planet are all supported
 
Not only one set of operators but two
Oh, 3, great
 
@Morwenn there is no default
 
user1804599
month first is retarded
 
I don't get what you guys are crying about
 
4:33 PM
There's absolutely no value in that silly DSL
And I bet the errors when you misuse it are horrible
 
dependencies: things you need
compile time: the moment you compile your code
-> compile time dependencies: things you need to have at the moment you compile your code.
 
Don't use it if you don't like it
 
Not really complicated
 
@elyse american
 
^ That
 
4:34 PM
He knows
 
@AndyProwl Cat doesn't even use C++, he just likes ranting
 
@AndyProwl yup. Dependency != encapsulation, but it's conceptually somewhat related
 
Yeah never comment on bad design, it definitely doesn't encourage it
 
I guess that the general heapsort for forward iterators isn't that bad.
 
@Lalaland that's zooming in on the practicality, the symptom, rather than on the actual "encapsulation" aspect.
 
4:36 PM
@sehe I understand the spirit of your comment but I think 'very high' is an exaggeration
 
@Morwenn pipe organ?
 
@Mr.kbok An ascending range followed by a descending range.
 
"ranting" christ
 
(sorry for not replying to specific messages, mobile is hard)
 
user1804599
@Mr.kbok 0123456789876543210
 
4:39 PM
oh, ok
 
@Mr.kbok I am ok with his style, he usually says meaningful things. I usually try to forget how he says things and focus on what he says. I just don't agree with what he's saying now
 
@AndyProwl just look at the standard library. That has a very high level of consistency. Really. Very.
 
beh I was so excited that Heroes V was on a discount :<
I get artifacts on water and background animations are at 1/4 the framerate
 
It also has a high (not very) number of quirks
 
that being said it was mostly nostalgia making me want to play it
 
user406009
4:40 PM
whispers vector<bool>
 
@sehe oh, right. Library-wise it isn't bad (hope Griwes doesn't see this)
 
it feels choppy from all POVs now
 
user1804599
bool<std::vector>
 
2006 was a ton of time ago huh
 
@AndyProwl well. "being very bad" and "being highly consistent" are not exclusive
 
4:41 PM
@sehe I meant 'bad' as 'bad at consistency'
 
Ell
@Mr.kbok me too
I can't really think of a reason for date literals vOv
 
Making code harder to read duh
Literals wouldn't be that bad
Crappy EDSLs made for no reason other than to write x/y/z instead of date(x, y, z) are a bad idea altogether
And saying "don't use it if you don't like it" is dumb, because once people start using it you're going to have to deal with that nonsense
 
Ell
I might get this wileyfox.com/storm
it looks like a OnePlus One without the invite system
 
@CatPlusPlus I wouldn't mind if it required a separate namespace import or something.
 
That's not really an issue
 
4:48 PM
@Cat The / separator is quite natural in that context so no 'nonsense'. I also don't think dealing with it is going to be a huge pain unless different taste causes you huge pain
 
using time::shit_operators; // Easy to see you're dumb
 
@Ell gah cyanogen
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz you don't like it?
 
@AndyProwl Operator overloading with probably expression templates is a kind of hard thing to deal with, regardless of whether it looks natural in the context or not
It's not about fucking taste, it's about recognising what it is in code you didn't write and being able to deal with problems that misuse of that might create
 
4:51 PM
@Ell not really
 
Oh haha whoops there's 20 templates used and you get 100 lines of error because you wrote y/d/m instead of y/m/d
 
I'm not a big fan of customizing things
 
I have managed to get a Win32 application working :D
 
@edition wow
fuck I fucked up when opening my yoghurt
damnit
 
4:53 PM
DSLs are only good when they're actually easier and more expressive than the alternative
Otherwise it's just complicating things
 
What is hard to deal with? I also am not really sure there are any expression templates there, or at least it's not obvious to me why they should be there. Also even if expression templates are used, I don't think they lead to lifetime issues here, because his examples seem to use auto everywhere
 
And IMO it is more expressive than the alternative here
 
That you have to think about it is the very reason why this is a bad idea
 
ScyllaDB is implemented in really good c++
like, really good
 
4:54 PM
There's literally no benefit of y/m/d over date(y, m, d)
 
@AndyProwl Next time you're reporting on one of these, we need to equip you with a better camera.
 
Ell
Idk if you're srs or not
I saw ScyllaDB the other day
but didn't look at code
 
look at it
 
You don't have to think about overload sets, a mistake will result in a clear error pointing right where you need it to
 
@Lalaland see. that's a prime example of a quirk. That is one of the rare ones that actually hurt (because it's hard/impossible to prevent it from triggering in generic code).
Things I reckon quirky are bool binary_search (WTF) and std::mismatch still not having safe signatures in c++11...
 
4:55 PM
There's no 1000 lines of implementation to understand
(Of just the fucking operator overloads)
It just looks fancy
That's the only "benefit"
 
@BartekBanachewicz ooh almost tempted to look
 
And that's why rubby is so fucking hard to use and read
Because everyone values what looks fancy over what's simple
 
I'm sorry I just don't follow. I would answer your points individually but phone is slow. And intuitive readability is an advantage
 
Well-named function calls are infinitely more readable than library-introduced pseudo-literals that aren't atomic
 
It's not just fancy, it's easy to read, understandable, not introducing overhead, natural
 
4:57 PM
What does y/m do?
Will you find that mistake easily?
 
I don't know. I haven't tried it
 
It introduces mental overhead of the entire implementation of that DSL
 
@sehe they use futures a lot for asynchronous computations
 
That's not irrelevant, it's not something you can ignore
 
and value semantics
and unordered containers
 
4:58 PM
And if someone uses that US-style literals in your code, will you find it more readable?
 
@Jerry yeah, sorry
 
What if someone mixes up the literal styles in one codebase
And don't pretend that won't happen
It's not a pit of success
 
Literal styles?
 
@CatPlusPlus Are you sure it's a mistake? I certainly find things like "July 1973" reasonable and useful in real life. Is there a reason I shouldn't be able to do the same thing in code?
 
y/m/d and y-m-d and whatever
@JerryCoffin I don't know!
It's not clear
 

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