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8:00 PM
L2 is on the order of 20 - 50 cycles. Memory is usually not worse than 300 unless you're on NUMA.
 
Berlin is such a great city
I love it
 
very interestingly, the mill CPU can hide L1 and sometimes L2 latency alltogether
by scheduling them early, but telling the CPU (by the compiler) that the result of the load must wait n cycles
so you schedule the load as early as possible, do other work while the load is in process, and the CPU won't stall at all if you had enough other stuff to do
 
@orlp How does that work when traversing a linked list where the nodes are all over the place?
 
this is the same as an out-of-order CPU would do, but without the power cost associated with it, and done at compile-time rather than runtime
@Mysticial it doesn't
 
@orlp Have you heard about Itanium?
 
8:03 PM
55 gallons of lube. Thanks Amazon.
 
but an out-of-order CPU doesn't do anything either
 
It died, because it needed a smart compiler to be fast.
 
@Griwes yes, it's based on the itanium
 
If Mill tries to be fast by using a compiler that's smart, then it will die.
Assuming it ever starts to live. lol
 
@Griwes I don't think that's true (anymore)
 
8:04 PM
what's Mill?
 
@orlp vOv
 
@EtiennedeMartel There we go
 
a good heuristic for scheduling isn't that hard
 
If lists are slow, would it make sense to have their elements allocated from pools to partially mitigate it?
 
What's wrong with the analogy of classes and blue prints
 
user1804599
8:04 PM
@Griwes extreme speed is not a goal.
 
I can really suggest the talks: millcomputing.com/docs
 
user1804599
oh wait
 
@BoniTea no.
 
user1804599
other Mill
 
user1804599
top kek
 
8:04 PM
I glanced at them.
 
> I warned you :D
 
@BoniTea The problem is the linear chain of pointers without random access
 
Give me a real chip to toy with.
 
personally, there's a couple of things that really interest me
 
user1804599
Here's another idea: if it's not Intel and not x86-compatible, it will die.
 
8:06 PM
@rightfold not true at all
 
user1804599
wrong
 
your smartphone says otherwise
 
user1804599
I have no smartphone, so you are again wrong.
 
user1804599
All of my smartphones say otherwise, but there is no smartphone that belongs to me which says otherwise!
 
@VermillionAzure My thought was that a pool would "localise" access for the chain to within a single page, say. So it might prevent some cache misses.
 
8:06 PM
@rightfold you are irritating even when I have you plonked
 
I don't think the mill will be displacing intel for a long time in desktop processors
 
and whos to say that smart phones won't all be come intel or x86-compatible in the next few years
 
@MoH. ARM's.
 
but their goal is very good performance / watt on general purpose code
that's very interesting for server architectures, mobile devices, embedded, etc
 
@BoniTea Do you need the lists
 
8:09 PM
@VermillionAzure I don't understand what you mean by "needing" it.
 
@BoniTea Why are you using lists
 
@VermillionAzure I am not using it for anything right now. It's just that the discussion early made me curious.
 
@BoniTea I've thought of an interesting solution; use a vector of pointers with a special copying and iteration search mechanism
 
user1804599
@orlp When it comes to Mill architecture: on a scale from Angela Merkel to Simon Peyton Jones, how enthusiastic are you?
 
@rightfold Double rainbow guy?
 
8:11 PM
@rightfold about an 7/10
 
user1804599
RAINBOW?????
 
if they had actual chips 9/10
 
user1804599
@orlp nice.
 
but the 2 points deduction is for caution of vaporware
 
@orlp They have FPGAs
 
8:12 PM
@VermillionAzure doesn't translate really
 
@VermillionAzure Oh. Sort of like file system directories.
 
@BoniTea I guess? I don't know
 
@Griwes Does intel really have no answer to ARMs? I find that kinda surprising
 
But I'd figure that you could easily turn each node into a pointer the vector.
 
8:14 PM
@MoH. They don't need to - they target different markets really.
 
@BoniTea What you could do is create partitions of memory for insertion and overwriting or something
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz then why is nobody doing it? vOv
 
Intel couldn't compete with ARM anyway, if they wanted to
 
So if you need to insert, you can just copy the memory where the pointers reside into another memory space with the first byte intact.
Am I making sense or is this a bad idea?
 
one cool feature of the mill cpu is a nifty instruction and a nifty way of handling memory errors
 
8:16 PM
@VermillionAzure It makes sense, to me. So, just shifting the pointers down the vector.
 
if you access memory you don't own you won't generate a trap immediately
only if you try to store the value
 
user1804599
what will happen instead?
 
@BoniTea Yes, except since the pointers are of a fixed size, you just copy the raw memory as needed.
 
@rightfold it generates a special error value
any computation you do with the error value propagate the error value
 
@Griwes I guess that makes sense, but at the rate that mobile technology is growing wouldn't they want to at least try to compete?
 
8:16 PM
@BoniTea This way, you avoid individual copies and you can just copy the before and after pieces as one piece of memory
 
user1804599
ok
 
so for example 1 + *((int*)0) would simply be the error value
 
@MoH. Mobile is lots of cheap chips. They are manufacturing mostly big, fat, expensive chips.
 
user1804599
no it'll be optimised out by the compiler :P
 
then they have a mask instruction that allows you to select parts of the belt based on a counter
 
8:17 PM
Do note they do have some mobile CPUs
 
@VermillionAzure Thank you. I'll try to weigh the pros and cons of this later.
 
But they kind of missed the window, I think.
 
user1804599
I want a quantum computer.
 
There might be another one opening some time in the future, who knows...
 
if you combine those two you can pipeline almost any loop
for example you can write code that does memcpy 16 bytes at a time
and you don't have to worry about going out of memory bounds
 
8:18 PM
@rightfold when is your birthday?
 
user1804599
Why?
 
maybe I will buy you one
or I like you <3
 
<3 E>
 
user1804599
hhmm
 
Ԑ>
 
8:20 PM
@BoniTea mmm okay this is just Cinch ideas don't take it too seriously
 
 
I want to be as cool as he is
3
 
another feature I really like about the mill is that there is a simple clean way to call functions
no calling conventions, no register cleanup, and 1 cycle calls
 
user1804599
Does it also offer a tracing GC?
 
@rightfold how would it do that?
not that I'm aware of
 
user1804599
8:25 PM
it was an unquestion
 
user1804599
I want a hardware CLR.
 
well it could've been a serious question...
with proper hardware support you could make a very fast GC
 
user1804599
There are hardware JVMs.
 
JMs*
 
I don't believe that's the way to go - architectures have specifications for a reason
 
user1804599
8:29 PM
21
Q: Hardware Assisted Garbage Collection

Nicholas MancusoI was thinking on ways that functional languages could be more tied directly to their hardware and was wondering about any hardware implementations of garbage collection. This would speed things up significantly as the hardware itself would implicitly handle all collection, rather than the runti...

 
Lowest quality.
New Horizon's antenna dish.
Woot woot
@Borgleader
 
user1804599
Looks like a bat nest.
 
user1804599
They are also made of saliva.
 
@EtiennedeMartel do you want to see something beautiful?
 
Is it a penis?
 
8:33 PM
no, different
var ints = new ObservableCollection<int>(new[] { 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 }); // this comes from the model, touch it on any thread
Foo = ints.AsFilteredView(x => x < 3)
          .AsMappingView(x => new MappedVm(x))
          .AsReadOnlyThrottledView(TimeSpan.FromMilliseconds(10))
          .AsDispatchingView(); // this relays col changes to the dispatcher.
linq to observablecollection
 
Ell
I wonder what file manager I should choose
 
user1804599
@Ell Z shell and coreutils.
 
@Ell because it works shitty in practice
god do I suck at this freaking instrument
 
Does any garbage collector recirculate items, like arrays of common sizes?
 
oh god do I
how can people practice for 4 hours straight
 
8:35 PM
@JohanLarsson Woa.
 
I play an hour and I'm like mentally exhausted
 
@JohanLarsson No, because arrays are mutable.
 
I practice masterbation 4 hours straight usually
4
 
@EtiennedeMartel full source
 
Ell
@rightfold meh
I use fish
 
user1804599
8:36 PM
then you're wrong
 
user1804599
use Z shell
 
Ell
but I want a graphical file manager maybe
 
@EtiennedeMartel My thinking is that when flagged for GC it could be put back in the pool.
 
@khajvah How many hours gay do you practice masterbation?
 
he practices gaily
 
8:37 PM
@BartekBanachewicz They work up to it.
 
user1804599
@JohanLarsson Go pools printf buffers, but that's not part of the GC. It's printf-specific.
 
@BartekBanachewicz wanna join the party ?
 
I've been learning the solo to ACDC's Back In Black
 
user1804599
You can implement it for your own things as well though. There's a library for it.
 
the bends are just too much
and I lack coordination to use the index finger as a support properly
2
IOW I suck and came here to rant
 
Ell
8:38 PM
@BartekBanachewicz in your experience?
 
@Ell in mine and a lot of other people.
 
@BartekBanachewicz starbait
 
user1804599
bartek wanna review Haskell code?
 
The starbait is implied when Bartek fingers things
 
@Ell Hmm, I should start doing that.
 
user1804599
8:40 PM
This Haskell code is ugly: github.com/mill-lang/millc/blob/feature/ssa/src-lib/Language/… where currentBlockID is a lens. Can I get rid of the use of use?
 
Ell
semantic tabs is best tabs&space scheme IMHO
but let's not go there lest someone get butthurt
 
@Ell truest sentence spoken here today
 
@Ell have you used in when collaborating with different people over a long-term project? Because that's what people in the software industry work with, and that's where it's causing problems.
 
@Ell Stop being like USA and starting pointless wars
 
user1804599
Use a programming language of which the implementation ships with a formatting tool literally everybody uses as save hook (i.e. Go), problem solved.
 
8:42 PM
clang-format will solve all your problems runs away
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz errr... sure ;)
 
Haskell is the best programming language IMHO, but that doesn't mean it would work best for every team on the planet.
there are lot of things that impact your development in the cruel, real world and things tend to break
social issues are a huge and underrated part of it
 
corporate world sucks
 
it's not just about corporate
 
Oh bartek is here
 
8:44 PM
it's about working with any team ever, really.
like, tips from someone who got fired from a software position. Treat it as my post mortem.
Don't ignore the social aspect of collaborating on code. Ever.
6
 
:24476676 Rule 1 of life is: "you die if you don't have at least 2 cells in your direct surroundings"
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, that's really important.
 
@BartekBanachewicz that's another thing that makes software development interesting, in my opinion
 
user1804599
OK, time to implement codegen.
 
@rightfold Where do you find all this time
 
user1804599
8:48 PM
???
 
user1804599
At home.
 
@VermillionAzure Under the covers
[ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°]
 
@nabijaczleweli Yawn. (soz that's mean)
 
@rightfold write an ORM
 
Ah, right now I'm writing a spec for my graphical data analysis tool.
 
8:49 PM
rip in peace
 
user1804599
@khajvah Why would I invest shitloads of time into something that suffers from shitloads of complexity and is worth shitloads of nothing?
 
profit
word is so unfair
world
 
user1804599
You don't profit from ORMs.
 
chat, did you already discuss that Opal LGBT drama?
 
@Abyx Ages ago, yes.
 
8:58 PM
@EtiennedeMartel oh I see
anyways, TIL there is a ruby->js transpiler
(lol the "transpiler" word looks funny in this LGBT context)
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
"concatMap" is too long.
 
Ell
@Abyx lol yeah
cispiler
 
C++ is a cispiler and you use it. You are oppressive anti-trans scums!
 
@Abyx oh what happened
 
user1804599
9:10 PM
I'm TG and I think OP is a faggot and github.com/meh is a good and enthusiast project maintainer.
 
Oh, I see. Somebody makes an offensive trans comment and the repo starts exploding.
Hm...
 
Oh wow it got removed
 
@VermillionAzure No, I'm a fuccboii and can't even link properly
 
> Damn. I found out about this project thanks to this issue, and it's super relevant to my interests. But not going to come near it with a thousand foot pole if these are the people I'd have to interact with.
lel
 
9:14 PM
@rightfold you're a latent CIS if you support transphobic people
 
Or you can just not click on your notifications... (waits to be shredded) — Mysticial 13 secs ago
 
DICSS' issues are the greatest shit on github (after Mill, that is)
 
>> @meh jesus christ. this isn't about "not liking candy", you fucking muppet
>I find @erisdev's taking the Lord's name in vain and using profanity to be deeply insulting to my religious beliefs.
>I will not use any project that @erisdev contributes to.
 
@Abyx Programmers. lol.
 
@VermillionAzure "programmers"
Wonder how many people just made their GH accounts to be asshurt
 
9:20 PM
We should start a troll project on GitHub.
Trying to offend as many people as possible at once.
 
@Griwes ...
 
@Griwes Like DICSS?
 
@nabijaczleweli No, more (directly) offending. :D
 
@Griwes Isn't it against GH's TOS?
 
I said more directly, not directly.
Like, let's try to offend both pro- and anti-gay people at the same time.
 
9:23 PM
github.com/Griwes/FuckJoshInTheAssWithAFleshlight
 
Thanks, I added an example of the polygon operations and how the behave strangely (by design apparently). — alfC 1 min ago
Man. The rant is so strong with this one.
Granted, his question is excellent. And the sample makes it more so. But he seems completely stuck on his assumptions.
 
@Griwes no you can't offend LGBT people
 
How can you ask an open question when you keep pushing your assumptions
 
@Abyx define "can't"
 
because they're already offended, always
 
9:26 PM
@Abyx You can't not
 
@Abyx okay, that's an interesting point of view :D
 
it's like when normal humans say "I don't like tea. - Ok man, whatever", they'd say "you tea-phobic muppet, you oppress me!!"
you just can't say that you don't like what they like
 
@Abyx "It's all because of white supremacy!"
 
user1804599
@sehe ass-umptions
 
yes
 
9:38 PM
flag? flag.
 
user1804599
I don't mind either.
 
(go away troll)
 
ok i deleted it
 
I like experienced virgins
 
user1804599
I like penis in my butt of both.
 
9:38 PM
too little too late
 
user1804599
(no sehe, not at the same time)
 
@rightfold Why not both? /at the same time/
 
@sehe experienced virgins? O.o how does that make sense
 
1 min ago, by sehe
(go away troll)
 
user1804599
9:40 PM
>
 
@nabijaczleweli how is it that i have more reputation than you without even answering one question?
 
user1804599
Because you're a help vampire, and as a consequence LRiO answers your shitty questions, which in turn results in lots of views and upvotes.
 
eggsacktly
 
@rightfold LRiO whats that?
7
 
user1804599
9:43 PM
@sehe horribly formatted post.
 
user1804599
-1 is well-deserved.
 
@TheArtist Honestly, I have no idea. You have free rep from Math.SE
 
it wasn't about that
 
You don't ask that great questions and you haven't answered anything...
 
9:44 PM
@rightfold who the fuck cares about the formatting of a non-post?
 
lol
 
user1804599
@sehe rightfold
 
ah, you will be thrilled then
 
@sehe what about this post?
 
@TheArtist You should take a look at a C/C++ tutorial and stay off of SO.
 
9:47 PM
inb4 plug
 
user1804599
@sehe genuinely atrocious
 
user1804599
thesaurus is fun
 
You need to diversify your epitheta
 
Okay
SO CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN why classes == blueprints for objects is bad
 
The link is missing
@VermillionAzure #@$%^$&%^*(
 
9:49 PM
@sehe *epithets
 
Not if you're a classicist
 
@VermillionAzure I didn't realize you could start an argument with a straw man out of the blue
 
@sehe Why is it bad
 
I highlighted a problem, the problem does exist Where I come from this is called an assertion and an assertion without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. — asawyer 1 hour ago
 
user1804599
9:50 PM
@sehe bukkake
 
@VermillionAzure Fix yer formatting
 
@nabijaczleweli Looks right to me.
 
@VermillionAzure No indent in block isn't "right" per se
 
@nabijaczleweli I don't need indents.
 
@VermillionAzure You do. Teach'em proper(ish) formatting
 
9:52 PM
@nabijaczleweli It is. It's two spaces.
 
@VermillionAzure You still don't really like to listen, right.
 
@VermillionAzure Hrmmm
 
@nabijaczleweli Yeah I just noticed that; fixed
@sehe @EtiennedeMartel asserted this
 
In shout-caps?
 
8 hours ago, by Etienne de Martel
@VermillionAzure Also, that fucking "classes are blueprints" analogy.
 
9:56 PM
Yeah. Well, you'd better ask him. It could be a fine analogy. Depending on how it's used
 
user1804599
@nabijaczleweli my eyes
 
user1804599
dat text rendering
 
user1804599
it's horrendous
 
@sehe Do you have a problem with classes == blueprints? @rightfold @nabijaczleweli
 
user1804599
I have a problem with C++ tutorials.
 
9:57 PM
Petition to stop the plink
@rightfold Well said
 
Welp, nobody answers my questions. :(
 
@VermillionAzure All (except the -1 vote one) answers have at least one answer
 
10:19 PM
@nabijaczleweli :|
v_v
o_o
-_-
 
You can search chat history for "entitled".
It seems a bit strange you're getting pretty clingy to random regulars because Fred said something that upset you
 
@sehe Me?
 
Apr 4 at 8:35, by Luc Danton
@Cinch Because I don’t owe you anything. I don’t have to explain anything to you.
Bam.
 
@sehe Heh heh, you're completely right :)
Thanks for reminding me.
 
10:23 PM
"If people really only help each other in order to get some points on a website, what does this say about those people?" - what does this assumption say about you? — sehe 5 secs ago
@Jeremy A bullet could ricochet off the egg and kill an innocent highschool shooter
 
@sehe I'm just paying my dues and trying to get these legalized before I have kids
 
@VermillionAzure Circle class isn't a good example of encapsulation IMHO
 
So I can placate them with those "100 kinder surprise eggs unboxing" youtube videos
 
@milleniumbug It's not.
I'm not planning to cover encapsulation, though.
 
A good one is std::vector, but that requires knowing basics of how expanding works, so I won't recommend it
 
10:25 PM
@milleniumbug I'd use a container, but I cannot explain containers without explaining the concept of an object
 
@milleniumbug You could expand on it in a tutorial chapter
@VermillionAzure huh
 
From real-life examples, you can get a microwave oven or DVD player
 
@milleniumbug Yes, but the code for that would be very long.
It's already too long as it is.
 
@milleniumbug Yay. Make them state machines. With event interfaces!
 
Proper OOP works when its integrated in a larger system. There is no SSCCE beginner's example for teaching OOP.
 
10:26 PM
Yeah. So don't provide one
 
@Jeremy I'm pretty sure you can't really get a military weapon in every state just for fun.
 
@milleniumbug I still need to show code because they need to grasp how to write a class.
 
Just provide a good description.
@VermillionAzure not in the "intro"
 
@milleniumbug I still need to introduce the syntax.
I'm going to talk about lambdas next.
and std::function.
I can't talk about lambdas without talking about the truth that they're function objects with associated, persistent state.
I'm still going to edit somethings out, though.
 
@VermillionAzure There was this one book I about C++ I read, which was pretty worthless otherwise, that provided excellent description of encapsulation's purpose.
 
10:30 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Whereas you can only obtain a Kindersurprise when you hold a license to kill
 
@sehe No 00 number, no kinder surprise.
 
He wrote how a DVD player is not just a set of parts, they're put together and the DVD player interface is hiding irrelevant details
 
@milleniumbug I'm planning to skip encapsulation until I can properly talk about it in more advanced terms.
 
The user of the interface doesn't need to care how reading works and how do you need to move the laser
and "hiding the laser so the user won't hurt himself" is one aspect of encapsulation and an analogue to making stuff private in the class
 
Just talk about the aspects of OOP one at a time.
First, compose (POD structs, aggregates).
Then add operations (printing)
Add behaviour (operators or state)
Now introduce visibility and encapsulation. Hint at the greater OOP concept and modeling applications using these techniques. Don't bother coming up with real life samples there (unless out-of-tutorial)
@VermillionAzure ^ hehe
 
10:34 PM
@sehe From what I've seen, I think encapsulation and design belongs in Level 2, for novices.
People just won't get it when they're learning the syntax and how to do basic things.
Try refresh the page; I just cut out a part of the article.
 
Feel free to ignore all my suggestions though, you are writing the tutorial
 
@VermillionAzure Considering that there's literally nothing else to say about them, I think that's a given.
 
It's your job to make it worthwhile read
Also I think you should test your tutorial on the newbies
That's your target group after all
 
@milleniumbug Lol, but where can I find some?
I guess I can try Reddit but... meh.
 
You're in college, right? There should be a lot of them here.
Make friends with some freshmen
 
10:38 PM
@VermillionAzure I haven't read it :S
 
@sehe do you want the link
 
:D
 
You don't even need to send the actual tutorial to them. Just try to explain stuff as if you're walking them through it.
 
@milleniumbug I've been able to help out people in my classes as well.
I even tutored for just a tiny bit.
 
10:40 PM
That's good, keep up the good work.
 
@VermillionAzure did you really
 
@sehe What?
 

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