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09:00
@Rapptz I had a.. "I refuse to think properly" moment.
@FatalSleep If it’s any comfort you are performing a C-style cast, not a static_cast.
Anyways what he wants is impossible.
09:12
Cygwin is useless.
How the hell do I compile Ninja for windows lol
Let us know when you don't have trouble compiling something.
@Cinch so are you ~
@BartekBanachewicz agreed
Time to go. Adios.
@Cinch two incompatible versions
bye danny
09:15
@BartekBanachewicz yeah ik it's just... it seems to divide the Python community slightly
@sehe Finally got around to trying that, and that’s very neat. Although v`` doesn’t seem to work really well (I did get the second version to work… once) on my end. Normal mode `` is fine though.
> slightly
@Cinch they fixed a lot of issues in 3, but a lot of people were using 2 and they couldn't just drop support
with Lua 5.2 it was similar
I wonder what working for Bjarne would be like
True that.
I don’t really like that it starts before the word boundary, which is where I’m 'resting' most of the time though.
09:16
@LucDanton Intresting. Well. I probably do these things a lot, but having the conversation made me pay a little more attention while I was doing this edit :)
I was looking at 5.3 recently and I was surprised that Lua simply did everything in floats.
@Cinch It worked well enough throughout the years
@BartekBanachewicz ikr
@LucDanton I thought f:<Space> was a nice and repeatable way to land there, at least for ctor initializer lists
It's just I'm wondering whether embedding Python into a mobile app is better than Lua.
09:17
> The fact is that, when you use a double to represent an integer, there is no rounding error at all (unless the number is greater than 100,000,000,000,000)
And then I'm wondering if Python can make use of good libraries for JSON and XML, which it undoubtably does.
But Boost.Python... Man.
@Cinch I'd say it depends. I'd personally lean towards Lua because it's lighter and easier to embed safely.
@sehe For some reason f/F breaks my flow so I try to use it as a last resort :/ I think I dislike having to figure out how many times forward or backwards I need to go before I’m where I want to be.
Is Python easier to work with though? Or is it the same, "register" and "pass" stuff to Python and back
Yeah there’s definitively something wonky with visual mode ``. It seems to go one higher in history than I would expect, hard to put into words. Also I haven’t been using marks in a while.
09:19
I use it for simple things (spaces work well). df<Space>.... is something that I use a lot. And for the "counting" thing (yes that's too complicated to track for humans :)) I resort to visual mode vf<Space>......
@LucDanton So many features unused ... I guess that happens when there's wonkiness. But maybe it's worth detoxing your vimrc for
Why use ``? What are we jumping back to?
%?
@LucDanton It's the cursor position before the last jump (yes, I guess)
d%p`` doesn’t work, so not visual mode related.
That is, it jumps me back inside what I just pasted. somewhere on the line I can’t predict
@Cinch Too simple. The documentation fails BADLY at making this clear. But I had a most pleasant shock intro here:
3
A: why boost::python iterator skips first element?

seheOh wow. Thanks for finally showing me the first self-contained Boost Python example. So, let me repay you the service by suggesting to use Boost Iterator to handle the iterator complexity for you: Live On Coliru #include <Python.h> #include <boost/python.hpp> #include <boost/iterator/iterator_...

That's not complicated (in fact it's amazingly succinct) and even runs live on Coliru.
@LucDanton There might an option interfering. Apparently this is known as the "context mark" (for your googling convenience :)) vimdoc.sourceforge.net/htmldoc/motion.html#m';
@sehe At the very least I’ve learned that there is something interesting about d-ing from the space before an element in a list.
09:26
@sehe How is it on Coliru?
Do they just have it?
> Just one question – if you’re right, why Go, and not D, is chosen for the majority of new projects in system/networking software?

Probably something wrong with your arguments.
> chosen for the majority of new projects in system/networking software
STRONK STATEMENT
@Cinch They have python. And you can inspect the command line. Why do you insist on asking things that are (a) publicly available (b) right in front of your nose
I wonder why rust and go has so much more hype than D
@sehe For assurance.
I don't take myself for granted either.
09:28
Well. Be assured: "they have it"
@LucDanton Perhaps a plugin needs to sprinkle some :keepmarks "directives" on their code...
@Pris Rust is a much more modern language than D
Is that likely? I’m literally doing d%p`` on my end.
@BartekBanachewicz But spoiled by fanbois
Holy smokes.
Ninja is awesome.
Also: Rust is a systems programming language that runs blazingly fast. I have yet to see a benchmark that supports that.
09:32
@LucDanton I don't know when script commands can run. Some things are really seemingly continuous anyways (I think YCM runs on a "timed" basis, no need to e.g. leave insert mode?)
@LucDanton Perhaps the p is rigged?
@ParkYoung-Bae It runs blazingly fast when chased by polar bears
'No mapping found' wut
None at all? Or not for p :)
@sehe Is Boost.Python still thread unsafe?
user1804599
@ParkYoung-Bae Rust is also shit.
09:34
@ParkYoung-Bae ~
Oh I guess that means I’m using the default p then aren’t I?
@wilx Asking the wrong person. No clue
user1804599
@wilx wait what
@LucDanton yup
@райтфолд I love you
@BartekBanachewicz Uuuuuh interesting definition of "blazingly fast"
user1804599
09:35
@Rapptz Another grating issue is that because Go is procedural
user1804599
That's a major advantage.
@BartekBanachewicz wth is that graph. C++ vs g++? Time Memory What? Who scaled those axes? Why is there a panflute in my graph? Two?
@sehe Rust vs (C++ g++). n bars show n benchmarks. Axes are logarithmic
(I get that Rust % something else means a ratio. But... Which way? And what do the bars mean? Apart from "they're values")
@sehe below is for-rust
so first bar means rust took around 1/3 of time that took the fastest C++ program
09:37
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah. But who >scaled< them (why is there so much room making it hard to read the bars)
@BartekBanachewicz ah
@райтфолд Like 5-6 years ago I have developped an extension to one internal tool that used Python with Boost.Python to allow extending head unit log analyser tool to do more stuff. At the time, I have seen some mentions that either Python or Boost.Python was not thread safe. In the end, I gated every entry point to the Boost.Python code with a mutex.
Hm.
@sehe they're equally scaled for every graph (there are other languages and differences go in hundreds there)
this just shows how small the differences are in practice vOv
@BartekBanachewicz 3x is not "small" in my book
3x time is typically negligible
09:38
@райтфолд I remember some of the Boost.Python developpers mentioning it was on their TODO lists.
@sehe Can you try this for me: on a line with ` a(), b()` with initial space in the first column, cursor on it, d%p``? Then you undo until you’re back at the initial state, and try it again?
@BartekBanachewicz eh (are you serious)
unless we're talking 16ms vs 48ms
It works for me the first time but after undoing/redoing `` is moody.
@ParkYoung-Bae kinda. 3x is the kind of ballpark you can get by varying the data input
for some algorithms (like sorting for example)
09:40
@ParkYoung-Bae don't take the bait
is mozilla going to develop firefox in rust
or are they making rust for something else
I think they might be already using it in some things
@LucDanton cursor ends up in first column (at ,) both times
They dogfood with Servo. Which is apparently able to render the Steam store.
but they're not going to rewrite it entirely, at least not in a short period of time
09:42
@BartekBanachewicz Yes absolutely
what is servo
@BartekBanachewicz That's not how (comparative) benchmarks works though o.O
@sehe Okay thanks. I’ll actually investigate further on my other machine later, this one is not too hot.
I don't understand Lua's multithreaded scheme...
@Cinch then read more about it?
09:42
I am, I still don't understand whether the program or Lua is responsible for itself and multithreading
Ideally I'd just like Lua to be a nice layer for parsing commands like an interpreter
@sehe What I'm trying to say is that both 1/3x and 3x in this graph aren't really enough to make me say that one of those is much faster than the other. They're really comparable in speed, and if something runs as fast as C++, it's blazing fast for me //@ParkYoung-Bae
@Cinch how long have you been reading about Lua?
Have you read the whole PIL already?
@BartekBanachewicz mmm idk what that means
read, verb - to scan letters and words in order to get the meaning
No, PIL.
Programming In Lua, a book.
09:45
Uh, no.
I don't buy books.
No money.
it's available for free
is rust compiled to native or is it like java
the 1st ed, at least, which is still largely relevant
:q
Oh shit wrong window
@ParkYoung-Bae well fucking done, close done the lounge why don't why!
Thank fuck no one saves this ever
09:48
Using the idea ( var & -signed( var ) ) I can get the right-most set bit. However, how can I get the index of that bit?
@Cinch 3
@BartekBanachewicz sorry. Of course if you're testing the same input data and same operation on it, then a 3x factor is huge.
I remember Alexandrescu saying that "tweaking the performance to a 1% improvement earns you your year's salary in power costs"
@LucDanton Is that supposed to be some magic number?
That's 2 orders of magnitude smaller
No, it’s quite ordinary. I’ve seen it before.
09:48
@FatalSleep Did I not answer that question earlier
Not entirely.
Then your question sucked
You directed me towards finding the right-most set bit, not the index of that bit.
Eh?
Your google fu and/or documentation fu is weak
09:50
bit shifting hacks
However it compiles with an error "nary minus operator applied to unsigned type, result still unsigned."
I told you to look for an instruction called "ffs" (find first set) or "bsc" (bit scan)
It's already a hardware operation since what, 15 years
FFS is clearly the answer
FFS is the answer, but I can't find a way to include it into C++.
intrinsics and/or inline asm
user1804599
09:53
> The IN-predicate on "product_attributes.id" was invoked with an empty sequence. This results in a contradiction, which nonetheless can be expensive to evaluate.
user1804599
lol
user1804599
what moronic RDBMS wouldn't optimise that?
user1804599
My guess is MySQL.
@FatalSleep I include a lot of "goto fu and ck" when doing C++
09:55
I watched the Netscape documentary.
user1804599
coool Mercury allows dynamic typing
@BartekBanachewicz Not much , digging into horrible code
I'm moving my code from one project to another
hopefully will avoid another fuckup merge
user1804599
ok so I had this wonderful idea
10:02
lol wait Go has no generics?
ahahahhahahahaa
ahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahaha
func int16Sum(list []int16) (uint64) {
    var result int16 = 0
    for x := 0; x < len(list); x++ {
        result += list[x]
    }
    return uint64(result)
}

func int8Sum(list []int8) (uint64) {
    var result int8 = 0
    for x := 0; x < len(list); x++ {
        result += list[x]
    }
    return uint64(result)
}
ahahahhahahahahhahahahahhaha
user1804599
Only a moron duplicates code.
user1804599
Also, this has been mentioned many times. No need to reiterate.
@райтфолд so only a moron writes in Go?
@райтфолд haven't noticed before
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz Uh, you can perfectly write this function in a generic manner.
@ParkYoung-Bae Thank you, finally figured it out.
10:04
@райтфолд Show us.
@BartekBanachewicz gorrect!
@райтфолд how?
@BartekBanachewicz The author is just trying to prove a point here
@FatalSleep Praise the Park Young-Bae
@ParkYoung-Bae I praise thee.
10:05
@Mr.kbok I suppose he succeeded if there's indeed no way to write it w/o the code duplication
@BartekBanachewicz There probably is though, as per the HN comments
Don't read HN though it will probably give you herpes
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz Also lol C-style for loop.
@Mr.kbok Herpes News
user1804599
@ParkYoung-Bae zisse
> Ahhhh, he's a D programmer. That explains most of it. D programmers are only slightly behind C++ programmers in their universal hatred for Go. Rubyists can learn to love Go, Pythonistas can learn to love Go, NodeJs people even, but D programmers, man, it's like just the mere existence of Go is an assault on their very souls. If D and C++ programmers hate Go, it's doing something right.
All of hacker news in one comment
user1804599
10:11
But I hope you'll never use Go.
"The language your company uses defines you as a person"
@райтфолд that's terrible, if I pass in an int8[] I expect my sum to be int8
user1804599
There's also a preprocessor that allows for generics.
@thecoshman nah that's ok
user1804599
I never had a problem with this, really.
10:12
@Mr.kbok Rubyists, pythonerds and javascriptards just have this terrible inferiority complex
@райтфолд what happens if I pass a list of a type that doesn't have + defined?
user1804599
The thing I have more problems with is that errors are returned instead of thrown.
user1804599
Exception handling is unnecessarily cumbersome and libraries tend not to panic.
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz Then you get a runtime error.
user1804599
Which tends not to be a problem, since you run the code in your tests anyway.
10:13
why is that 'result int64' in brackets too? I don't see any reason for that
user1804599
Because it's a named return value.
@райтфолд so there's no way to resolve that in compilation time?
@райтфолд lolololololol
oh wait, no I do
user1804599
If you remove result you don't need to parenthesize it.
10:14
I think I like that... maybe...
@thecoshman could be useful in imperative code
user1804599
Maybe try something out before you bash it.
@райтфолд I'm not bashing anything yet
@райтфолд where's the fun in that?
@райтфолд No
user1804599
10:15
Write like, at least half a program in it.
I just laughed at the fact you can't do such a basic thing as compile-time polymorphism
user1804599
Like I always do.
@райтфолд why? You're perfectly good at studying languages. You should know better.
If you have at least half a brain in PLT, you know you can analyze a language without ever looking at it
there are features that describe languages unambiguously.
user1804599
Because the experience isn't shit or good based on the feature set of the language but based on the way the language is used?
the whole "write it before you criticize" is born from all of those "practical" people who tend to write shitty code anyway
@райтфолд it might be perfectly fine to write in Go.
10:16
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm trying to find your "free hand stars" pointer explanation answer. Do you have it somewhere/search keyword?
user1804599
Perl 5 no parametric polymorphism either and I can work with it perfectly fine.
I can't even tell if its approach works in practice because it's a social problem more than a PLT one actually
I keep looking past it, it seems (unless it's gone?)
@райтфолд and I can't. That's why bringing personal experience to language discussion is moot.
it's a matter of personal preferences and habits
@райтфолд That's terrible.
user1804599
10:17
omg PERL
What I really wanted to hear was "you can only do runtime polymorphism in Go"
and you gave me a fanboy tirade.
Interesting that you should note that
user1804599
sealed trait IO[A] {
  def apply(rw: Tower[IvoryTower]): Trampoline[(Tower[IvoryTower], A)]
}
@sehe I'd know right
user1804599
"IvoryTower" :(
10:18
@BartekBanachewicz Is what I'd have thought yes
I tend to do this kind of stuff too alright :s
ewww, what if elephants have smelly mouths, would you still want to live in an ivory tower?
user1804599
Ugh.
I wanna read a book for entertainment
user1804599
Mercury has no string.map so you have to do string.from_char_list(list.map(F, string.to_char_list(S))).
user1804599
10:20
Well I guess it's a good thing.
hi hi Atlas Shrugged
runs away
user1804599
There shouldn't be a bias towards sequences of code points.
user1804599
It has to_char_list and to_code_unit_list.
user1804599
But to_code_unit_list takes no encoding. :(
@Griwes so his implementation is basically dynamic typing, from what I understand
> Using interface{} is a farce and is only included in the language to circumvent type checking. It is an empty interface which is implicitly implemented by all types allowing a total free for all.
> It’s a powerful tool that should be used with care and avoided unless strictly necessary.
– Rob Pike 3
10:23
Yeah.
> The language could be described as C with training wheels.
lol
user1804599
Awesome!
user1804599
AWK is the perfect language to implement Hangman in.
im looking at the brothers kamarazov... i want something scifi tho
user1804599
> Lua implemented in Mercury
user1804599
10:27
Nice, Lua on the Erlang VM.
What would you recommend to version binaries
user1804599
Incrementing an integer.
@ParkYoung-Bae Perforce, Plastic, git-fat
git-annex maybe
alias git-urmom = git-fat
10:30
well SVN works too if you want just binaries
we're using Git + Git-fat + SVN right now and it's a pain
I wish we had a Plastic license if it works at least half as good as advertised
Xeo
Xeo
We're using Perforce
I love how Plastic handles assets for artists
you selectively checkout files from repo and that automatically locks them
when you're done, you return them back
Xeo
Xeo
Perforce has the "exclusive checkout" flag for that
Useful for anything undiffable
I just fell in love with that UI
the MergeMachine looks nice too
you fell in love with too many things
so your love is kind of worthless at the moment :'(
remember the time you confessed your undying love towards cicada?
10:37
@BartekBanachewicz yeah, locking files can be nice, but can be a serious pain too if people don't use it wisely.
or forget to unlock it
@thecoshman like when you lock and go for holiday?
@BartekBanachewicz yes :P
or just don't realise that you locked a file, so others have to come ask you to sort it out.
@thecoshman good UI can help with that
@thecoshman Oooh. People will have to talk to each other, The centre cannot hold
@Pris permission granted
10:43
@BartekBanachewicz you can excuse anything like that though
@ParkYoung-Bae Have you tried mao yet
Generally, I'd say locking is something you should not just have for the sake of it.
@thecoshman You can excuse your incompetent coworkers all the time, if you prefer
@Mr.kbok I'm in China therefore yes (Mao Zedong, right?)
@sehe their's no excuse for them :P
10:45
@thecoshman it's for the sake of avoiding conflicts
umergeable files can't be edited at the same time by two people, period
@ParkYoung-Bae I was going to get pedantic and say "I thought you were in HK"... then I thought :P
@thecoshman on the contrary; their excuse is, by definition, theirs
@sehe it might be theirs, but it is not an excuse
@thecoshman If you ask the locals, then HK is not China indeed (they're very fierce about this)
@BartekBanachewicz indeed, but as I said, it is something you should find a need for first, rather than just have for the sake of it.
@ParkYoung-Bae huh... trying to think of a former British colony place that isn't fooked...
10:47
@thecoshman I just told you what the need is
@thecoshman Ameri- oh, wait.
Oh you're in HK? We're looking for a C++ programmer here
Lemme guess. SG? BNP?
@BartekBanachewicz o_0 yes... and I agreed that if that is a use-case that applies to you then it is a feature you need... I am saying that you shouldn't just go for a version control with locking just for the sake of it. ie, if you are just working on things that can be merged (ie code) locking is an anti-feature.
10:49
@ParkYoung-Bae the BNP are in UK, you silly.
@thecoshman Everyone has offices in HK
@park more like Brithish No-Nigga Party the god damn racists.
@Mr.kbok Lemme check your linkedin
Oh, you work at my bank. Can I file a complaint?
10:52
@ParkYoung-Bae it's your bank, just fix it
I should update my profile
@ParkYoung-Bae or not :P

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