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15:00
get out
@thecoshman Well, I assume he wouldn't try the code thing as the very first thing, for example. Knock on the door and ask the co-pilot to open it for a while until he realises something's wrong and then the plane is descending and OH SHIT OPEN THE FUCKING DOOR DON'T DO THAT, etc. Doesn't seem unreasonable.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I guess that since the YAs haven't been around long enough to see previous iterations, for them it's all brand new.
@AndyProwl Ah, I haven't been following the latest Louge developments, I just drop in from time to time.
@Borgleader Sure
@R.MartinhoFernandes Don't know, I think most reasonable for the captain would be to assume the copilot is unable to open
Although the descending procedure would likely make me think otherwise
Yeah you're right
@R.MartinhoFernandes ... 9 minutes? These are pilots, being calm is what they do.
15:03
But I'd still try to enter the code
@thecoshman They're people.
@R.MartinhoFernandes You can't prove that
Rather than trying to break in, when that's known to be impossible
I kind of find the suicide hypothese a bit crazy, somehow
@BartekBanachewicz "diverse group of teenagers rising up against the evil grown-ups who get thrown into another unrealistic life-or-death scenario". Yes.
15:04
@R.MartinhoFernandes besides, he can't have been that loud and panicky, wasn't it only at the last minute people realised the mountains were a lot taller than they should be?
@ParkYoung-Bae Based on the given information, it seems the most plausible one
@R.MartinhoFernandes another teen flick?
@AndyProwl I don't disagree
@AndyProwl Aliens!
Maybe he wanted to beat suicide by train in terms of dickishness
15:06
@Puppy hope it was the packaging
Traveling by plane sounds safe recently.
@thecoshman Nah, they were already responsible for the MH370 case, they wouldn't risk to get exposed again that early!
@AndyProwl No, that was wormholes.
@CatPlusPlus Epic success
@CatPlusPlus I think 11/9 is winning that contest... though maybe the holocaust
yeah... fairly sure holocaust was rather a dick move...
15:08
@thecoshman That wasn't suicide
Holy shit
@Jefffrey 404 No fatalities found.
It's 403 actually, they have referrer blocking
@CatPlusPlus 404 on the error page!
15:09
@AndyProwl the discussing, the news fact or both?
404 fatal error
So what is that chart
Mortal Kombat ratings?
@Jefffrey What's surprising about it?
@sehe hehe. I was referring to the fact, but I guess "both" would not be inaccurate
@R.MartinhoFernandes ?
15:10
@Jefffrey I don't see what's "holy shit"-y about it.
Ok, that sounds wrong.
That last ramp on 2014
From ~250 to ~900
What about the one in 1985?
@Rapptz You develop on windows with ST3+clang on mingw, right?
15:11
Eh
I'm hungry
This is stupid
> Our Company is interested in buying Internet Domain for Coccodrillo Brand in Armenia. Unfortunately, I have no discernment in companies providing such services in your country. It would be great if you could find some companies which are able to sell us those internet domains, and send me contact data of those companies.
@CatPlusPlus oh right... or was it?
Do they really ask me to google for them?
Hmm, do they have actual downloadable data?
I wanted to run a regression.
Ugh, it's all split into years. Don't wanna download and merge all that.
Actually, it's one file per accident.
Hawaiian Airlines, began providing flying services since 1929, has an high passenger volume and never had a single incident.
It seems to be the best flying service ever, by a long shot.
15:17
Can't discount chance.
@ParkYoung-Bae Yes.
The closest you get is with Frontier Airlines that is operative since 1946 and never had a single incident.
@Rapptz How does it feel
Pretty good.
Why do you ask?
I want to give it a try
15:23
@Jefffrey Also depends on how many flights were operated
@AndyProwl Does it?
What is "passenger volume"
What if they only fly when they can guarantee they won't have an accident?
:P
:)
Delta's records are quite good
Over 15 million flights in 20 years, 1 accident
With only a few casualties
@CatPlusPlus For an average human about 66.4 liters
15:26
A miserable little pile of poo
@ParkYoung-Bae Summer Glau is 55l.
Speaking of newfangled editors
It's been few months since I last tried Atom
Ugh clever installers that know better when to put things
@R.MartinhoFernandes violating Rule of Zero, eh
@AndyProwl What measures can an airline company take to improve their standings, though?
Shooting down competition
15:32
Not saying they're powerless, but it's really hard to discount chance.
Time to bread, good night
If you don't discount chance, you need to be aware of the gambler's fallacy.
@R.MartinhoFernandes My impression is that chance is likelier to have an impact if the number of flights is low
@AndyProwl Routes matter too.
Yeah need to ip route show before
Ok bed4real now
15:34
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah. Not saying number of operated flights is the only thing that matters
it'd sure help, though
@R.MartinhoFernandes I bet you dont!
Xeo
Xeo
Current Status: Trying to understand the workings of a data structure that has 19 separately managed reference counts. :'(
omg
@AndyProwl Anyway, the crux is "can chance explain these results?". They're just curios without that answer.
@CatPlusPlus Used to be that was hard, but now you can just pay Putin some money.
15:39
Just saw that /r/surfacelinux exists...
@Xeo No wonder they take so long to implement anything.
> Penguins like nice things too...
@Puppy He takes money?
I thought he only did it out of personal interest.
you mean, instead of the land of other nations?
@khajvah They're asking you to do somehing for them. Depending on who "they" are, this could be reasonable
@ParkYoung-Bae hawaii is closer to the US though
15:43
@R.MartinhoFernandes Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it's hard to imagine that luck (or lack of bad luck) is behind Delta Airlines's records of only 1 accident in 20 years with over 15 millions flights
(just to pick one)
@AndyProwl It's hard to believe, but do you actually know what the probability is?
your internal headstimate could well just be wrong.
@AndyProwl Luck is the default explanation.
Stats!
I mean, unlikely things happen all the time.
god fucking
cowworkers forming "anti-rebase" front at work here
grawrh
go go git merge
not sure I'm a fan of rebasing really
prefer merging so far
15:45
@AndyProwl So, no, you're not misunderstanding me. Common human intuition is notoriously bad at is.
@Puppy No, I don't and sure, I might be wrong. I just find it reasonable to believe that there were situations of bad luck during the last 20 years, given the huge number of flights, and that they were tackled successfully.
@Puppy I don't get how you can prefer one to the other
you're supposed to use both basing on circumstances
those are two different commands aimed at two different use cases
ok, let me rephrase that
so far I've pretty much only seen cases for merging.
@Puppy how many developers does the repo you're working on have?
They're both effectively merges. The difference is that one fakes the history to look linear.
15:47
four and three fifths at the moment :P
it doesn't "fake" anything if the changes are unrelated
@R.MartinhoFernandes So you're saying the data by themselves say nothing about quality/safety, even including the number of operated flights?
I just hate people commiting merge commits from their local master
they give no useful information
@AndyProwl No, no! I'm saying that the data doesn't necessarily say what you think it says.
No fast forwarding
15:47
they are just noise.
@CatPlusPlus elaborate
@AndyProwl You need to run a statistical test to know what the probability of those data being explained by chance is.
They give the diff of the merge, which makes easier to pinpoint problems if someone fucks up conflict resolution
when I had to rebase, Git tried to make me fix merge conflicts for every individual commit that was different
whereas merging just merges the final products.
Also rebasing has a synchronisation problem, so I do it sporadically if someone might touch that branch
the history is more accurate for merging too.
15:49
@Puppy That's the same amount of conflicts
@CatPlusPlus you're never supposed to rebase on public branches
Every branch is public, we don't do forks
@CatPlusPlus Not if you made some changes and then changed it again, say.
@CatPlusPlus local branches aren't
Local is irrelevant, I'm not going to keep changes locally for extended periods of time
15:50
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, but your point is that without running that test (which I did not), the data say nothing about safety, right? Or am I not getting it?
@CatPlusPlus Nah, it can be less, the same, or more.
I never keep changes locally, mostly.
I'm not messing with you, I'm just a bit dull I guess
I do squash commits p often
@AndyProwl The data might say something; you just don't know what it actually is unless you run the test.
15:50
@Puppy I seriously don't care if you started working on something before or after I made my change; if your change was pushed later, it's your responsibility to make it up-to-date
@AndyProwl Well, I guess the word "say" is where we differ. I take the view that the data by itself says something, you just need to ask it first (run the test). So semantics.
Eh, history accuracy
readability.
Ideally I'd rebase more if I knew people could handle it
@Puppy that's what D in DVCS is all about
prepping your commits to make them appropriate for public
15:51
But I already had some broken merge requests when we had to remove bad merge from history
@BartekBanachewicz no, it's what the 'redundancy' in 'redundancy' is all about.
Also git could use Mercurial's phases
if something needs more than 1-2 commits it should be a feature branch anyway and merged
I don't allow people to push to mainlines
@BartekBanachewicz Just squash the commits and call it a day.
15:52
Everything is a feature branch
@thecoshman preparing changes locally was a very important point in making git distributed
@CatPlusPlus when you need to keep a feature branch up-to-date with some master fix, do you rebase master there or merge master into that branch?
I'll probably be going back to Mercurial for the bulk of my personal repos
@BartekBanachewicz master is never rebased
That's dumb
I suppose he meant the other way around.
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm not educate enough to get the gist of this whole thing, perhaps. My point was simply that the absolute number of accidents doesn't say enough.
People tend to merge changes into their branches
15:54
And that the relative number of accidents would be a better indicator
I sometimes rebase if I care enough
Although it would not be a perfect one
@AndyProwl Sure, but just adding the number of flights doesn't either (as in, the ratio is not a reliable statistic for comparison).
Though I think others are starting to use rebase more too
@AndyProwl Yeah, but how better?
15:55
@CatPlusPlus I meant making the feature branch as if it was based on newer master commit
See above
I rarely merge with fast forward though
Those merge commits are p useful, and a good point to squash post-merge fixups into
@R.MartinhoFernandes Because if the number of operated flights is huge, and the company flies all over the world, and the number of accidents is very low, I have reasons to believe the company does effectively take care of safety issues
I generally always try to keep my changes rebased off the latest
@AndyProwl Ok, let's try a different approach. How far from the average is that accident rate?
How many σs?
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't know. The numbers are not shown for most companies
16:03
@AndyProwl Then how can you discount luck?
Wow, I almost felt asleep
Been woken up by someone sniffing
@R.MartinhoFernandes I take it that when the "comments" box is left empty, it means the number of flights is not very high
And there are companies with more accidents and the "comments" box empty
If the exact rates were there, OTOH, I could get a better feeling of where company X stands compared to the average
Which may tell more about safety
@AndyProwl Lufthansa has no comments.
They're the largest airline in Europe.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, you're right. In fact I shouldn't have written about missing data because that's not my point. My point was that if more data were there, it would have been possible to say more about safety
Jeff's point was "Hawaiian Airlines had zero accidents and a long history, best service"
To which I replied that I wouldn't take this conclusion without at least knowing how many flights were operated
@AndyProwl Yeah, but without it there's very little you can say. Turns out the average accident rate is ~3 per million flights, but if it was say, 1 per 5 million flights, I don't see why chance couldn't explain 1 in 15 million, and another company with 5 in 15 million.
16:17
@R.MartinhoFernandes I agree there's very little you can say without those data. In fact, my point is that it would have been possible to say more with more data (number of flights). To which, I take it, your counter-argument was that it wouldn't be enough anyway. And yes if two companies with 15 million flights have 1 accident vs 5, I can imagine chance being responsible for that.
But if Airlines X has ever operated, say, 100.000 flights, but had zero accidents, then I know the zero isn't really saying anything and I shouldn't take it into account to evaluate safety - or to form an impression about it
While if a company with 15 million flights had zero accidents, and the average is of 3 accidents per million flights, I know the company is tackling safety issues reasonably well
But then again these are the thoughts of an uneducated person
@AndyProwl Yet the rate of the latter is fivefold!
user1804599
Logic programming is good.
That's my main point: the intuitive conclusions aren't necessarily the rational ones.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Right, but relative rate of accident rates is not the relevant data
@AndyProwl The thing is, with a proper test, you can know what the probability of chance being responsible is. (Or get a nonconclusive result and still know jack squat, but that's besides the point)
16:25
@R.MartinhoFernandes Basically my point is that the accident rates are the important data, and the fact that they can be interpreted the wrong way does not make them less useful
Well I'm sure you got my point. It's me who has troubles with this stuff, not you
@AndyProwl Ah, but is it? You still need to discount the confounding factors, like the actual routes served. I'm pretty sure some routes have bad weather more often than others. Can you tell much that factors in the numbers?
> atom-django
> Build Django apps faster with Atom.
BUT WHAT DOES IT DOOOOOOO
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, that's a good point you already raised, I do realize that
(That is, if you only want to say "X airline is serious about safety". If you want to say "I have a better chance of surviving a flight on airline X than on airline Y", then the routes are not confounding because that is where you will fly)
Yeah
I understand this part
16:29
Sorry if I feel too naggy.
No that's fine
This is probably the argument that convinced me since the beginning
But I still somehow wanted to reply to the other argument because I have troubles understanding it
Like, my impression is that even if all companies were flying on the exact same routes, your point about statistical test etc. would still be there against my claim that accident rates would be useful data, right?
@AndyProwl Basically, chance is always a possible explanation, so it is important to quantify that possibility.
But what kind of test would you run to quantify that possibility?
Would the test be run based on more information than just those data?
@AndyProwl Assuming you ruled out the confounding factors (which can obviously only be done by collecting more data), you would test how the data fits some expected distribution. It's not gonna fit exactly, and you quantify how likely it is that a random process following that distribution could produce those results. I don't know which particular test one would use for this particular case, though. I can never tell that :(
d14
d14
Hello Everyone!

I have a function that reads data from a file, then inserts in increasing order based on a specific field from each row of data.

If I compile and run this section of code, it sorts initially, but once I repeat the action, I get a sorted duplicate, if I run one more time, each item appears 3 times.

void listAccByAccBal(Bank *& head, Bank * data)
{
ifstream fin("bank.txt");
int acc; string first_name, last_name; double bal;
while (fin >> acc >> first_name >> last_name >> bal)
{
16:37
@R.MartinhoFernandes All right, so if I understand it correctly, the data are necessary but may not be sufficient
Like, it doesn't mean they aren't sufficient
The test will tell whether they are or not
@AndyProwl Nah for the test, you just need the data and a few educated guesses (expected distribution, etc)
Though, yes, it can be inconclusive.
@d14 Hi. It is not considered very polite to dump walls of text here just like that :) (we have some guidelines, you can find them on the starboard)
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ok, thanks for your patience
d14
d14
@AndyProwl Thanks for pointing that out. My sincere apologies.
@AndyProwl This describes it well enough, I think: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
@d14 No problem. Have you considered asking on StackOverflow, though? It's more likely that you will be given an answer there (people usually don't feel like doing troubleshooting here, they mostly care about chatting)
d14
d14
16:40
@AndyProwl Okay. I''ll do that. Thanks.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Will read
@d14 No problem, good luck :)
-5
Q: Best C++ Compiler

RomWhich compiler is better to use in C++ Programming, Orwell Dev C++ or Visual Studio? Any other compiler recommendations? Thank you in advance.

Is Orwell Dev C++ from 1984?
2
Anybody tried to write multithreaded code in python3? How are mutex response times? Did they get rid of that big lock? I want to feed a producer consumer/consumer at 30ms intervals....
You have come to the right place! Lounge<C++> is were Python3 experts discuss multi-threading issues.
19
The GIL is still in Python 3.
16:52
Fuck, they still have that GIL
yeah fuck
now I'm going to have to use C++
@Mikhail Famous last words.
@Mikhail Under the GILotine.
IronPython looks promising, if I were a better person I would found my technology stack decisions on benchmarks...
@FredOverflow It's the new one :)
@LightnessRacesinOrbit lol
17:01
Benchmarks are shit
Ping Jeffrey in cc :P
/cc @Jefffrey
@AndyProwl s/chatting/arguing/
17:20
You unplonked me already? :P
@AndyProwl Btw, how far away are Prague and Brno?
Spotify not minimising to tray is becoming extremely annoying
@R.MartinhoFernandes About 200 km I think. Are you planning a trip to Prague?
Aug 27 '14 at 15:59, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Next bike trip: http://radreise-wiki.de/Elbe (just Prag-Berlin, not the whole thing)
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah, nice. I think I could come to Prague to meet up - or if you want to come to Brno you could certainly stay at my place
17:28
@AndyProwl No
@CatPlusPlus Yes
@CatPlusPlus But not as annoying as that it no longer shows the currently playing track's name in the taskbar item
I have to actually restore/maximise the window to see what's playing. Which is monumentally retarded.
Why on earth would they remove that feature
@AndyProwl I'll see about it. Still tuning out the details.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Ah, I thought so
My current plan is to take the train to Prague and cycle back after a few days, but I guess I could extend the train sections a bit and go to Brno.
Cycling from Brno is out of question, though. 200km is at least two extra days.
Or I could come pick you up in Prague
Most likely I'm going to be in Italy during the last week of July and the first week of August, and all the weekends in June as well as the first one in July are taken (Unconference, weddings, etc.). Other than that, I'm always available
@R.MartinhoFernandes Right, plus there's not much niceness to see on that route. Moravia isn't bad for cycling, OTOH
I don't like the height profile :P
17:34
Yeah, it's all up and down
But there are flat routes too
So probably more like 3 days.
There are some nice castles too, not too far away from Brno
@AndyProwl Castles? I only got as far as the bars:(
17:38
No one's surprised.
@MartinJames Well, those are closer :P
How expensive are trains in the Czech Republic?
It depends, I think Prague-Brno should be about 10 euros
It depends if it's a Eurocity or a local one
Can I carry a bike on those?
I think so, but I think I can come pick you up in Prague
17:40
Oh, that sounds nice.
We just need to plan it a bit in advance
I'll have to take a closer look at the cycling route to get a reasonable estimate of how many days I need, and then I can plan everything.
This time I'll cycle on return, so I'll be against the clock.
Yup, looking forward
Tempted to do camping this time. The freedom to stop anywhere is nice.
Last time I was bound by "distance to the next town".
@R.MartinhoFernandes Towns are easier to find than campsites.
17:43
@MartinJames With free rooms?
@R.MartinhoFernandes Prolly not, but at least you could charge up your phone.
Camping is awesome but unless the weather is superhot I'm 99% likely to catch a cold
@MartinJames I have a USB adapter to connect to my dynamo so I can charge it as I cycle.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Orite:)
but if you have a normal body and you're not travelling with girls (they tend to need showers, clean bathrooms, etc.), then do camping
17:46
Dunno how to handle clothes, though.
Last time I brought only three spare sets of clothes and washed them at a youth hostel on Monday.
17:59
@AndyProwl How long are you staying for the Unconference?
lol this NMEA sentence: $GNGGA

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