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9:00 PM
What are we to say that others do not exists or are invisible to us?
 
@Cinch If you define the axioms underlying number theory, you're gonna end up with the inevitability of infinite digits of Pi. The beauty of this is that it requires no reality, at all! Changes in reality don't influence this fact.
 
Xeo
@Puppy Ye, it's not in his. I mention it in mine, at the bottom, but not directly as -> decltype(blah), but as "if the resulting expression is well-formed. Otherwise, the operator() of the lifting-lambda shall not participate in overload resolution."
 
We cannot. We must ignore things that are undetectable to us forever by defintion.
 
@Cinch I repeat. Math does not make sense to the world right now, either
 
Xeo
Maybe add that to your comment?
 
9:00 PM
@sehe But math makes sense to us, human beings, which exist in the real world.
Math is a tool for us and a way of thinking and a system of thinking composed of many subsystems.
 
@Xeo His also doesn't account for things like if the return type is not a value. Pretty significant if you wanted to lift say operator[].
 
@Cinch I think you lack a bit of philosophical foundation
 
It is one way, and possibly the best way right now, but that doesn't mean it is the only way.
 
@Cinch: I suggest that you take some mathematics and philosophy of science courses at university, if you have the chance.
 
^
 
9:01 PM
@wilx True. I don't have the experience.
 
Do any of you use an online note-taking application/tool? Like Evernote or Google Keep? Do you have any other suggestions?
 
I think I'm gonna click some fish instead
 
Xeo
@Puppy I address that in mine too (declare lifting-lambdas to be "perfect-returning"). I think his version is a very rough first draft.
 
But the reality is that new evidence can change what we think is "true" because evidence can prove us wrong.
 
True. In general.
 
9:02 PM
We cannot predict new evidence if we do not have knowledge of it.
 
@Xeo Currently, it seems to be less a "rough first draft" and more "Your proposal but he drilled it with more holes than Swiss cheese"
 
Xeo
lol
 
@Pris I use Google Keep and occasionally stackedit.io
 
@Cinch We can guarantee, though, that Pythagorean Theorem will never change, because it's based on theorems that will never change.
 
@sehe Then in general, it is always possible for us to be proven wrong to some infinitesimal odds, no matter how small they may be.
 
9:03 PM
no, that's clearly not true.
that it's always possible for us to be proven wrong.
 
Ah
 
@sehe But if some weird thing were to happen tomorrow where it falls apart, say, on one edge of the universe or something where reality itself falls apart, then they would have to say that it does fall apart in a case.
 
1 + 1 = 2 by definition, for example.
no real-world evidence can change the definition of an abstract concept.
 
@Puppy If people were to change the defintion of 1 and +1 we could do this.
 
@Cinch Nope. That'd just mean that in some cases we need something else
 
Xeo
9:04 PM
@Puppy: Also just noticed this bit: "The only context where the synthesis of generic lambdas from an id-expression should be allowed is when the type of the corresponding parameter is a type template parameter." - meh
 
@Puppy Let's do a programming example.
 
@Cinch No, the resulting concepts would not be 1 and +.
 
Xeo
unnecessarily limiting, imho
 
@Cinch Amazingly little of science truly proves existing thoughts wrong--most just adds more onto what's already known.
 
they would be something different but similar.
 
9:05 PM
All of math is of the form "if X then Y"
 
@JerryCoffin Exactly, but revisions are necessary in some cases.
 
@wilx stackedit looks fly
 
@Cinch Not really. That'd be an exercise in relabelling. The abstractions are still there and didn't change. You just called them differently o.O
 
The assumptions might change, the derivations do not
it's just that the assumptions are very often implied
for example the axioms of logic
 
@orlp Math is based on an if-then system anyways.
It is logic.
 
9:05 PM
If you change the axioms, the math changes
If you fix the axioms, math does not change.
 
@orlp Yes. The assumptions are the axioms themselves, though.
How can you guarantee we are using the same ones, however.
What math means to me may be different than what math means to you.
 
Under the assumptions of second-order arithmetic, pi has been proven to be endless.
 
> Math is based on an if-then system
Look out. We got a bad-ass over here
 
If you do not believe in second-order arithmetic, we can discuss that.
 
@Cinch Ah. Now you're getting at the philosophical part.
 
9:07 PM
@sehe That's my entire point.
 
If you do not believe the proof of pi being endless under the assumptions of second-order arithmetic, you're wrong.
 
Xeo
Argh. I wanna comment and fix his proposal, but that would mean a ton of involvement, which I absolutely do not have the motivation for. Grml grml grml. /cc @Puppy @TemplateRex @sehe
 
@orlp Of course I do. It is required to use the tools of math that are useful in virtually 100% of use cases that it can be applied to.
 
Useful that. For it to change, humans must cease/change. It'll just mean some truths ceased to appear relevant. Not that they ceased to be truths
 
so, anyone wanna talk about Lisp instead?
 
9:08 PM
Therefore I subscribe to the idea because it has been tried and tested.
@sehe But is truth inherent or defined by how we think?
 
@Cinch Surely--but we don't waste our time examining everything we've proven wrong 100 times on the theory that it might suddenly change the 101st time either. We explore areas that show promise, where further exploration is likely to show something meaningful or useful. Most of what's classed as "paranormal" doesn't fit that at all.
 
@JerryCoffin "Waste" and "promise" are subjective based on our own bodies of evidence.
 
@JerryCoffin If you've proven something wrong there is no need to revisit it at all under the same assumptions.
 
Evidence only serves to convince our logic. The illogical may indeed find something of worth.
 
@Cinch I think the first, but might well be unanswerable. To answer it, you may have to assume a "divine oracle"
 
9:09 PM
@Cinch The answer to that question is useless.
 
@sehe Which is the possible area of the paranormal.
@orlp WRONG.
The nature of truth has reprecussions in all ways of life.
 
so
 
@Cinch What would even qualify as a "proof" in the absence of logic?
 
let's talk about Lisp..
uh
 
@Cinch No. Any answer to that question has been made within the system of your own truths and assumptions, and is only relevant under those assumptions.
 
9:10 PM
it's nice how data is immutable, right guys?
 
@JerryCoffin How would I know? Logic is how we as humans operate?
 
@Cinch It's seems equally possible that it doesn't exist
@Blob oooh. NSFW
 
@orlp Exactly. Therefore, truth is not static, but dynamic according to where it is in thought.
 
@Blob Shame bratek isn't around. That would certainly have worked
 
Therefore, truth is context-based.
 
9:11 PM
@Cinch Some of us at least try to operate somewhat logically. You? I'm not so sure. You certainly haven't shown much in this thread.
 
@Cinch No, our reasoning is context-based.
There very well might be absolute truth.
 
@orlp our reasoning on what truth is is context based.
 
We however can not argue for or against its existence.
 
@JerryCoffin I think he's logical, if you're willing to accept the extremism at the same time
 
@orlp But here we are.
 
9:12 PM
@Cinch Or are we?
 
@orlp Yup
 
@orlp I do agree with absolute truth being a possibility.
But how can WE know that until we can verify it to the level of math?
 
@Cinch Define WE :)
 
@Cinch Then you must agree that you were wrong earlier, and that the answer to "But is truth inherent or defined by how we think?" is useless.
 
Define "useless"
 
9:13 PM
@sehe WE being the idea of humans agreeing to subscribe to a single idea in the same or supposedly same way.
 
I think we're all agreeing by now (except the drop outs)
 
@orlp I can be wrong or right, I do not decide whether I am either even if I try empircally.
 
> the idea of humans
You know. That's not useful
 
@sehe I can't really agree--I suppose I could have missed some things, but he seems to make quite a few...leaps from premise to conclusion without benefit of anything that resembles any logic I've ever seen.
 
@sehe A tautology.
 
9:14 PM
@sehe Well I feel like I'm getting lost in semantics here so I'll go back to my original argument.
 
@orlp ok
 
I would say that research into the paranormal could have great gains if any use can be made out of it, including healing or understanding of time, etc etc.
 
Personally I don't like the idea of humans
Someone change it
 
@Cinch There is no such thing as "research into the paranormal".
 
Let me take this moment to note that Cinch has shown to be remarkably coherent at high speed. The typo rate is considerably lower than yesterday.
 
9:15 PM
If it can be researched it's not paranormal.
 
Perhaps he just needs a few more drinks and he'll be all over "normal topics" again?
You know, like C++ tutorials
 
funny how he wants to teach C++ when he doesn't have the faintest clue about it
 
It's his choice. He intends to learn it that way. I'm not qualified to say he cannot
 
@Puppy well I teach myself at the same time so ++ for everyone.
 
I like how big the assumptions are in that sentence
 
9:16 PM
@Cinch Research has been done. As far as I know, everything previously considered paranormal has been either proven a hoax or not proven not-normal.
 
Almost as big as yo momma
 
Now now.
 
@CatPlusPlus here comes the ad hominem
 
the problem isn't that he can't learn C++ that way, the problem is that he's going to spread his uniformed shit.
 
9:17 PM
It's not an argument
 
@wilx Yes... as far as you know.
 
@Cinch Nah. Here come the running gags and humour
 
I may think differently.
Others may think differently
 
You do :)
 
@wilx What is the difference, in your terms, between paranormal and not normal?
 
9:17 PM
This much is absolutely plausible.
 
I constantly try to think I'm rich but alas
 
The fact is, some see worth in it, and I propose that I think that more reserach should go into because a lot of people would accept it.
 
fuck what people would accept or what people see.
what matters is what's true and real.
 
@CatPlusPlus Why would you think that? I try to think I'm rich. You know, think I'm alas doesn't make me feel god
 
@Puppy But we already agreed that our ideas of what true and real are not the same from human to human.
 
9:18 PM
Erm. Nope. We agreed it might not need to be (always) the same
 
that ceases to be accurate once science gets involved.
 
That's why we developed scientific method hth
 
yep, pretty much.
science returns objective results- that's what's so useful about it.
 
@Cinch You keep claiming we should 'research' the paranormal. How exactly do you imagine this would go?
 
@Puppy What's real?
 
9:19 PM
@CatPlusPlus Yup! Scientific method was created to create a reliable consensus system.
 
@Jefffrey Shit
 
@orlp Hm... There are many ways I guess.
I'm not the expert here.
 
the only place where what's real changes from person to person is the placebo effect.
 
@Puppy I do think science is useful for examnination and building consensus.
 
@Cinch I'm trying to understand your confusion - could you give an example?
 
9:19 PM
@Puppy lol
 
Which is why I think it should be vigorously applied to "paranormal subjects" until they are either proven as untrue or worth is found.
 
Because I believe your use of "paranormal" is very confusing.
 
they've basically already been proven as untrue.
 
@orlp For example, let's say we try to examine the existence of ghosts.
 
If you believe we should do more research into "the unknown", then that's just called science.
 
9:20 PM
@Cinch how?
 
no investigation of any paranormal activity has ever returned a reliable positive result.
 
Not even then. If a person is magically cured, this will almost always be visible to others as well (cue: faith healing)
 
@Blob Exactly, that's the question.
We can try many different ways of analysis.
 
@Puppy How can you be so sure?
 
And as we discover more, we can apply them.
 
9:21 PM
@Cinch In order to be able to research it, we'd need to quantify what would qualify as "a ghost".
 
@orlp And the definition of that can change as well based on how we try to define it.
 
@Cinch :| i can only think of computation and the scientific method. neither work in this case.
 
It's... complicated....
 
@Cinch There's only one association with "vigorously" in the lounge...
 
@Cinch OK. Show me one Nobel prize winner who has proven anything paranormal existing. You cannot because there is no such thing or evidence of such thing. If there were and it was provable, you can be sure the person proving it would get a Nobel prize.
 
9:21 PM
@Jefffrey If ghosts do exist, don't you think that would have some pretty big implications that those researchers would want to talk about?
 
@wilx Exactly, I want that first person to come about.
 
@wilx There are so little Nobel prize winners on this planet that that qualification is overly restrictive.
 
@Cinch Everybody who ever tried has failed. There's no reason for more people to waste their time on the matter.
 
@Puppy I'm pretty sure that if something was to be discovered, me and you would probably be the last to know. In this order.
 
@Puppy What about NDE?
What about people that should've been clinically dead?
 
9:22 PM
lol Nobel prize is a really good indicator of things
 
Besides, people that have a nobel prize include: Obama.
 
lol NDE
 
Let's tip it over the other edge: there is historically proven danger in focusing on making paranormal phenomena likely, acceptable and important
 
What about people that claim to have seen events before they happen?
 
People who don't have a nobel prize: Hawking
 
9:22 PM
lol random people claims.
 
@Puppy But they do exist.
 
@orlp generally people refer to a Nobel in one of the sciences..
 
Also any mathematician
 
but they don't matter.
 
Religion is the resting place of many of these.
 
9:23 PM
people claiming to see the future have been around since it was linguistically possible to make such claims.
 
Religion is big because people believe they have found something they can believe in.
 
none of them have ever been demonstrated to have any such abilities.
 
@Puppy ???
 
What's great about science is that it's general enough to allow new ideas without resorting to "YOU JUST GOTTA BELIEVE MAN"
 
@CatPlusPlus Exactly.
 
9:24 PM
@Cinch Nobody cares what people can believe in.
 
@Cinch Could you make things more subjective. The examples seem the very subjects that would be trivially deconstructed with some more scientific understanding. And I'm glad science is focusing more on other things
 
Edgar Cayce had a good amount of predictions that were right.
 
people believe all sorts of shit.
 
Also we know nothing and we are certain of nothing as human beings.
 
like vaccinations don't work.
may as well believe that the Earth is flat for all the consequence.
 
9:24 PM
I hate using the age card... Talking to you is like talking to my 3 years old daughter. She also believes Christmas gifts are from the Jesus, etc.
 
@Cinch And there were many other people who had many predictions that were right.
 
@wilx what? don't they believe in santa?
 
Besides, that guy is dead, how are we going to reproduce his claims?
 
@Cinch And this is precisely an example of the objectively proven dangers of magical thinking.
 
@Cinch Like what
 
9:24 PM
how is it jesus?
 
@wilx Dude, that's terrible. You should really help her with that.
 
@Cinch I had a good amount of SO answers that were thought helpful
 
@Blob No. This is the Czech Republic. Traditionally, it is the Jesus (Ježíšek) who brings the the gifts.
 
@Cinch Firstly, I'll believe it when I see it, and secondly, one anecdote != actual scientific research.
 
@CatPlusPlus Here's some. Not all of them are right but it's peculiar how he got some of these right: edgarcayce.org/are/ancient_mysteries.aspx?id=2071
He also, according to the site, predicted his own death I believe.
 
9:25 PM
@Cinch Ok, now link an article about a guy who was wrong.
 
@wilx Lol. "I hate this, but..." (hint: you're lying)
 
maybe santa is satan indeed - bribing all those little kids with gifts
 
@Blob "the Jesus", FTFY
 
@Cinch Wow, it's almost like every single human being on the planet will die.
 
news.discovery.com/history/religion/… well somebody's lying here.
Or maybe everyone's believing a lie.
 
9:26 PM
not "somebody", "all of them"
 
I don't know; I'm not them.
I don't know; I have no data.
 
Let's all remember this quote people.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
 
@orlp And people claim to have such.
 
...
 
@Cinch Such as?
 
9:27 PM
@Cinch lol. I'm amazed that you are seen advertising this site, after much superficially coherent discussion. You're entitled to your views, but why don't you just join a cult if you're craving the mystical so badly?
 
One of my later goals in life is to sort through the evidence and try to find something significant.
 
@sehe No, I am not. I have an urge to use it whenever I find somebody so misinformed like @Cinch and who is clearly very young. Often I am able to resist because I know it is not a good argument. You will have to take my word for this, or not. :)
 
you need to try to get this through your apparently quite thick skull
what people "claim" is completely irrelevant.
 
@Puppy I won't be sure about that until I actually die.
 
people "claim" all sorts of utterly random nonsense.
 
9:28 PM
@Cinch But you have sense
 
@sehe because my focus is to improve the academic system right now, not to solve that problem yet.
@sehe Sense without verification is just sense, not science.
 
what random people "claim" is meaningless, nothing more than white noise.
 
@Puppy define "random people"
 
it's been proven over and over again that human experiences are completely unreliable and have little connection to reality.
 
@Cinch Everyone.
 
9:28 PM
What scientific studies claim is meaningless, nothing more than white noise.
 
@Puppy Therefore I must have a scientific study to back up my stuff for you to agree?
 
@Cinch No, I already said, everyone.
 
people that don't have a scientific study backing them up.
 
It doesn't matter if you're fucking albert einstein.
 
@wilx It's the pattern that reveals the lie. Either you hate it, so you constrain yourself. Or you don't, so you'll allow yourself to use the argument. You can't go and say "I'm sorry to do this, but I'll have to /inflict nasty thing X/". That's dishonest
 
9:29 PM
Claims require evidence.
 
@Cinch Yes. That is exactly it. Scientific study that passes peer review and is independently repeated and verified, or no dice.
 
@Puppy Well then I guess I better find or fund one sometime.
That's all I want to do later in life.
 
@Cinch Why don't you improve the academic system to the extent that it will show it's own deficiencies?
 
> On another occasion in March 1929, six months before the stock market crash, a New York stockbroker was given a severe warning of the impending "great disturbance in financial circles" that was about to take place (900-425).
 
@Cinch You've been incredibly vague all this time.
 
9:29 PM
lol
 
@Cinch Precisely. Science is not needed for many things. Also, science would not help you without the data.
 
@orlp Of course, because I have no evidence and it's my own personal idea and goal.
 
So what you're saying is that he wasn't completely oblivious to the economy
 
@Cinch Can you give one concrete example of something that can be verified and reproduced, but hasn't, which you believe might have some truth to it?
thats not too unreasonable, is it?
 
@orlp Nope, because I'm not currently interested and focused on that right now.
 
9:30 PM
@sehe Have you never seen people do things they did not like? Like wiping shit or vomit produced by their own offspring?
 
A little bit of sense therefore tells you not to trust unlikely shit without proper data
 
Economists are paranormal that explains everything!
 
can we please
talk about something else
 
@Cinch then stop making a fuss about stuff you can't even produce one example for
 
@Blob NO!
@Blob :D
 
9:31 PM
@Cinch Does sex exist?
 
No.
 
> n 1935, in an amazing display of precognitive perception, Edgar Cayce warned a 29-year-old freight agent of catastrophic events that were building within the international community.
 
@orlp Who are you to command me?
 
@wilx ... I do not picture you sitting next to that 3y/o daughter when she vomited telling her how you "hate to do this, but you have to". You'll keep your mouth shut and do it anyways
 
@Cinch Someone who has to exist in the same chatroom as you.
 
9:31 PM
My ideas may be stupid, but that doesn't stop me from thinking about them.
9
That's not gonna stop me from trying to use them.
 
no, but you really should not go out and teach other people about them and infect them.
 
@Cinch I'm merely concluding that if you fail to produce one example of a perceived lack of study, then you should not be making an issue out of it.
 
@orlp True. That's why my goal later in life is to find evidence.
 
@Blob you have assignments :) Nothing to complain about
 
@Cinch Do not mistake a right to think/speak for a right to be heard.
 
9:32 PM
we can't stop dumb people having stupid ideas
 
@sehe i dont want to do them :C
 
@orlp You didn't have to listen, ya know.
 
Everything on that page about that guy could be done by anyone
 
I would've stopped talking if everyone ignored me.
 
@Blob Go answer pathetic questions on the main site
 
9:33 PM
That's not paranormal, that's being intelligent and observant
 
@sehe urgh
 
hmm
 
fine
 
Or endure the lounge hell.
One day you'll find that you might as well do the damn assignments
 
lol
people praising the scientific method
 
9:33 PM
Cinch is really a bit of an intellectual jihadi, you know.
 
This is a list of prizes offered to anyone who can provide scientific evidence of paranormal abilities. == Objectives == The purpose of offering prizes for evidence of paranormal abilities is to publicly challenge those who claim to possess such abilities to demonstrate that they in fact possess them, and are not fraudulent or self-deceptive. The paranormal challenges, often posed by groups or individuals who self-identify as "skeptics" or "rationalists", are mutually agreed upon beforehand between the challengers and the claimants. A challenge is usually divided into two steps, the first being...
 
@sehe one hour, rather.. maybe at 11 when i start yawning.
 
@Cinch Thanks, I had my doubts, but you finally cleared them. I'm plonking you.
 
seems like the paranormal doesn't have that great of a track history
 
@Cinch lol, this weakness again :)
 
9:34 PM
"My faith is that I'm totally right, fuck everyone who says I'm wrong, and I'll do anything to infect other people with my crap and ensure that they're wrong too!".
 
Well anyways, my final statement is that I believe there should be continuous reserach into the paranormal and there should be a forum for people to talk about it freely so that they don't get shut down and is generally held in good faith and standards.
 
Let's talk about something unpredictable and deeply unknown: C++.
 
@sehe Of course not. But it is something I dislike yet I do it. Same here. I know it does not add me any credit as a good discussion partner, yet I think it needed to be said. Sometimes, you (I) dismiss the silliness she is talking or asking about and tell her she will understand when she grows older.
 
Okay, now on to C++.
 
@Puppy Not really. He's willing to discuss. He doesn't like when people don't understand his views, though
 
9:35 PM
@sehe And that's fine. I'm human too, ya know.
Anyways, let me move on to Compact Cpp
 
there should be more funds for NASA, but there isn't
 
@sehe He doesn't follow the ~~~scientific method~~~ so he can't be a good guy
 
What do you guys think? Objects in less than 400 words.
 
Stop helping him
 
9:35 PM
is there a way to filter questions by votes? i wanna see only the ones below -2
 
@Jefffrey Yeah. With that, I disagree. As long as he's open to discuss things rationally.
@Cinch Please! In less than 50 words
 
Anything that is not scientific is irrational.
 
Yup. Humans are irrational. Mind blowingly so
 
@Cinch I think that I'm tired of C++ tutorials. And that's definitely not what I meant by "Let's talk about C++".
 
@Blob Find the advanced search options. Come on you can help yourself
 
9:37 PM
@sehe Objects are variables + functions. They have privacy controls for inheritance and internal/external access. Classes are definitions of object types. You need to define a class to create the object type.
 
@sehe sorry, the questions must've rubbed off on me
 
1 min ago, by Jefffrey
Stop helping him
@Cinch Classes (or unions) are that
 
@Cinch In int x;, x is an object
 
@sehe Classes are the blueprint, objects are the thing, right?
 
@Cinch I think you're doing the world and yourself a disfavour by doing this.
 
9:38 PM
@Blob That's fast
 
@orlp Wait why?
 
@Cinch Yup
 
Objects are the shit
 
@Cinch Because anyone stumbling upon your information will end up leaving misinformed, and you're wasting your time.
 
@orlp You rather have him on IRC discussing paranormalcy right :/
 
9:38 PM
@orlp It's geared towards beginners and is supposed to be easier to read than all of the other C++ tutorials now.
 
@sehe at least there he won't be harming the innocent
 
It's a word count of <400 words man!
 
@orlp WUT
@orlp No need for the assumptions. Either help him avoid the rubbish, or accept the rubbish.
 
@Cinch That does not excuse teaching them incorrect crap. It makes it even worse.
 
It might not even turn out that bad
 
9:39 PM
@Puppy What's incorrect?
 
That would help you fix it
 
Please be more specific so I can change it!
 
@Cinch Easy to read doesn't mean it has to be wrong. If you want easy to ready and don't mind being wrong, Schildt's books are great.
 
@sehe At that point we would've written his tutorial, he would've learning some random things that he could've learned from a book.
 
The assumptions, mostly. And possibly many details of your text. Disregard the premature dismissals
 
9:40 PM
If you write 6 tutorials and 2 programmings you can exchange that for 3 languages from pantoona
6
 
I'm pretty sure that last time you posted one, I tore it to pieces.
 
@CatPlusPlus graahahah lol
 
@orlp Then ignore him or send him away. You can always plonk
 
@Puppy This is a new one.
 
then sure, post it again
 
9:40 PM
@Cinch I already have been, and rather than fix things, you argued that they were all right as they were.
 
SO only provides way to filter votes "greater than or equal to", not "less than" :|
 
@sehe I find plonking very rude, and will only do so in events of severe spamming/abuse.
 
On Tuesdays you'll get one language free with every chapter
 
9:41 PM
@orlp Aw, thanks.
 
let's see
 
@Cinch It's not a compliment.
 
incorrect assumptions about tools user is using: check.
 
@orlp Well. In this case it appears that the spamming is one way, the abuse the other way :/
 
unnecessary use of std::endl: check.
 
9:41 PM
> .cc
 
@orlp I know. I'm appreciating that you'll give me mercy.
 
Actually it explains what endl does
 
unnecessary return 0;: check.
 
"Objects and classes can also own functions." for arbitrary definitions of "own"
 
That's better than 100% tutorials that use endl
 
9:41 PM
@Jefffrey I consider that good style.
 
@CatPlusPlus I explain it in the tutorial right before, compactcpp.wordpress.com/2015/03/08/…
 
incorrect use of "own": check.
 
I'm actually heavily against the implicit return 0 policy
 
@CatPlusPlus Psst. Don't interfere with the Puppy when he's binge-cracking down. Puppies are known to turn on their owners when you approach them at such times
 
"privacy" of a class? wat.
 
9:42 PM
incorrect use of "object": check.
 
> Then, initialize/declare object variables (instances of a class) like any other basic data type.
oh dear.
 
@orlp It's not a policy. It's an anomaly. A trivia.
 
perfect eye sight = 0 // 0 is the perfect eye sight ...
 
@CatPlusPlus Well, that's... certainly a slight upside. More useful is not randomly spattering it through the code, though.
 
@orlp I'm actually heavily against main returning int and I wish we could all forget about it for as long as possible.
 
9:43 PM
oh
 
You gotta flush sometime
 
@Puppy Ooh, thanks I'll fix this now.
 
@TemplateRex I was going to star that, then I saw "but the user can write &foo::id, []id is not necessary" :/
 
Otherwise it'll stink
 
@Jefffrey That's fine.
 
9:44 PM
showing a class that completely doesn't actually need to be a class: check.
 
@Puppy This is a tutorial, doe.
 
@Cinch At this point, the lounge appears unanymously intent on shredding your work. With some right :/ I suggest you ignore this bored troop for the moment and go work in quietness. Maybe drop a link when it's done
 
@Jefffrey but I think it's terrible language design that they made an exception that int main can exit the function without a return statement
 
Implicit return in main is dumb and inconsistent with the rest of the language
 
@sehe Hm... perhaps you're right.
 
9:45 PM
@Cinch Which is why you should demonstrate some vaguely good practice instead of demonstrating "It's a class but we totally wish it was really a namespace because we're too dumb to handle namespaces right now, so you won't actually get any handle for why classes are important or what they should do"
 
if you're not returning from main, it's not an error
implicit return 0 makes sense
 
@CatPlusPlus Says the guy who was fine with for (e : c)
 
@Blob no it doesn't
Any function with a non-void return type should exit through a return statement.
 
@Jefffrey I agree that main should be able to return void. That doesn't mean that people defining it that way aren't wrong, though.
 
9:46 PM
@Blob It's UB everywhere else
 
they should've just made main void main, and tell users to use std::exit if they want a return code IMO
 
It's yet another special case to remember when reasoning about the code
 
@Puppy I gotta decide what do teach first, though.
 
@CatPlusPlus it doesn't make sense everywhere else
 
@Griwes Still star it. Starring in the lounge is a mechanism to make sure more regulars see something. If it's bad, people need to see it too!
 
9:46 PM
Why not?
 
@Cinch More generally, it seems to me that you should actually know what classes are and should do before demonstrating a use of them.
 
Because everywhere else you don't know what's the default value that should be returned.
 
you're specifying heavily the least important part of a class: the syntax.
 
Sure you do
 
main always has a return 0; at the end. might as well require less typing. you can manually return something else whenever you want.
 
9:47 PM
That's what default construction is
 
@sehe Well, I kinda assumed that Sutton at least pinged Xeo w.r.t. that proposal. Also I could consider starring it, if the message did not include "yay" :D
 
and completely ignoring the most important parts of a class, things like invariants, why you want private functions/variables, choosing immutability, etc.
 
@Blob No it doesn't always have return 0 at the end, that's extremely stupid reasoning
 
@Puppy But that requires a lot of context I need to set up first.
 
@CatPlusPlus What you want to return from a function in default behavior and what the default construction for that return type is are two orthogonal concepts.
 
9:48 PM
The context will come.
 
@Griwes pfft. Hard to please. Post your own damn link. See how many stars it gets.
 
@Jefffrey lol we're talking about implicit default
You might not want to return 0 from main either
 
@Cinch Then you need to set it up right the fuck now and drop any tutorial relating to classes until it's done.
 
user1804599
lol return statements
 
user1804599
primitive low-level crap
 
9:48 PM
@CatPlusPlus That's the default behavior.
 
@Cinch The biggest issue with your writing that you can not possibly fix until you become an expert is that terms like "bundle", "own", "object", "basic data type", "initialize", "instance", "declare", "define" often have very precise and specific meanings, that are completely wrong if used in the wrong context, while making sense if you'd just look at them from an English perspective
 
Which is something you don't know about any random function.
 
@Puppy But that's hard to do once because that context took years of programming experience before they adopte those patterns.
 
Only because it's specified so
 
Yes
 
9:49 PM
Which is the dumb part
 
@orlp He's not writing specs, though, nor a reference. He's writing introductory texts for people with short attention spans
 
@Cinch Which is why you shouldn't be writing this tutorial until you have years of programming experience.
 
@orlp Yes. I agree. But I am assuming they're starting from absolute 0 experience.
 
@CatPlusPlus if you want to return 1, you can. It's zero by default because that's what it almost always will be.
 
You can very well specify that default behaviour for everything else is default-construct the return type
 
9:49 PM
@sehe This.
 
and really
 
@Puppy Wait do you?
 
@sehe I think it's important to use the terms in a consistent matter so beginners can subconsciously get used to them before understanding their exact connotations
 
Default construction of the return type is irrelevant
 
@Blob This really isn't special enough to warrant a special case
 
9:50 PM
the whole point of a tutorial is that a) you should have years of experience, and b), you should be imparting the benefits of those years.
@Cinch Yes.
 
@orlp But they won't understand them if I use something that's not natural first.
 
Aaargh jesus fucking christ fine whatever
 
@Puppy Why don't you write one?
 
@Cinch That's why you explain them.
 
@orlp I think it's important to accept the fact that not everyone digests these texts easily
 
9:50 PM
@Cinch He has wrote one
 
@Cinch I actually have a fairly great bank of C++ tutorials on my hard drive right now.
 
@orlp But explanation is not natural.
 
We are all tired about C++ tutorial.
 
whether it's natural is irrelevant.
 
@Puppy Then publish them! There's helpless people that need help!.
 
9:50 PM
@Cinch Neither is C++.
 
what matters is whether it's correct.
 
What's up guys?
 
@orlp I'm trying to make something unnatural become natural. Therefore the way I explain needs to go from natural -> unnatural
 
Obnoxious people left and right
Take your pick
 
@LiamHardy We're arguing about my C++ tutorial.
 
9:51 PM
it's unnatural and will never be natural and your time is totally wasted.
 
@Cinch Plenty of people are doing just fine at learning C++. We don't need more C++ tutorials, unless they actually give something new.
 
@LiamHardy Cinch thinks this room is about arguing about his C++ tutorial.
 
@LiamHardy Here it is if you want to jump in: compactcpp.wordpress.com
 
Like C++11 and C++14 newbie tips.
 
If anything
 
9:52 PM
@Cinch In my experience, hardly anybody actually looks for them. And secondly, I'd have to put in actual effort to convert them from my old ASP.NET website to my current one. And thirdly, I'd probably have to update them for like, my last two years of experience.
 
@Jefffrey Can you give me some so I can incorporate it?
 
we need less C++ tutorials
 
heres a cplusplus newbie hint: dont
 
I highly doubt that @Cinch ...
 
@Cinch No
 
9:52 PM
misinformation is more damaging than scarce of information
 
I know nothing about C++
 
take for example cplusplus.com
 
@orlp Well it appears no one is giving me any to help me so I'll just keep on going on more slowly.
 
This room is about C++ in general I beleive...
 
@Jefffrey We know
 
9:52 PM
a beginner doesn't know it's total poop
 
@LiamHardy Yeah but the majority of us are talking about it right now lol
 
@Cinch If you actually put in some effort to learn C++, I'd be glad to help you with that.
 
This room is about Lounge in general
 
it's spreading your misinformation and lack of knowledge that I object to.
 
@Cinch Did you just frame it as such ? o.O
 
9:52 PM
@Puppy What should I learn more?
 
@Cinch We're giving you help, just not the help you can recognize you need right now.
 
@LiamHardy This room is about anything you want to talk about
 
@Cinch Everything :P
 
except Java
 
This room is about couches.
 
9:53 PM
@Puppy hm...........
 
Praise the High Command
 
@Cinch Just pipe down a little about your tutorial.
 
Oh, about coches.
 
everybody has a different approach.
 
@LiamHardy Idk what you mean so... uh.... yeah.
 
9:53 PM
personally I made some projects, and they were shit, and then people here and elsewhere slapped me for being shit, and then I made some projects that were less shit, and so forth.
 
Watch this on an Android phone (recommended) or desktop.
 
@Puppy that's a pretty guttural description but yeah I guess that's what people do.
 
@Cinch Or you can spend a year answering questions in and be a lot better prepared (you'll get the same type of discussion for free!)
 
@Cinch And exactly what you should get cracking on.
 
It's the new frontier of "3D" movies
 
user1804599
Cool, somebody is adding libclang to the Crystal compiler so you can include C header files.
 
@Puppy Well I'll start doing more projects once I get there for the tutorial.
 
Me too I learned accurate notions of C++ language iteratively.
People tend to forget how much their mental models and verbal expression sucked initially.
 
@Cinch You will never get there for the tutorial until you've done years of projects.
 
I'm going to provide tutorials based on SFML because it's so nice to use and beginner friendly.
 
@sehe I went from knowing shit C++ to not knowing any C++ to slowly knowing a bit more C++
 
So I'll end up submitting SFML projects here for peer review later I guess.
 
SFML is crap
 
9:56 PM
@Jefffrey Huh? I thought it's better than SDL in terms of clarity and cleanliness?
 
@Blob Time to write your initiation tutorial
 
@Blob Good point.
 
SFML might not be crap, but I hate the author.
 
@Jefffrey I've heard this before
 
If this video doesn't mention dimethylmercury I'll be disappointed
 
9:56 PM
Why does everyone hate him
 
@Cinch Something can be quite a bit better than SDL, and still be complete crap.
 
@райтфолд "cool, somebody is adding rocket launchers to these toy carts"
 
user1804599
lol
 
user1804599
That happens in Palestine.
 
What are some C++ libraries that have good form and are easy to use?
 
9:57 PM
None
 
I personally like Sol by Rapptz
 
I hate that author too
 
:D
 
@Cinch Depends a bit on your definition of easy to use.
 
Boost
 
9:58 PM
@JerryCoffin mmm.. requires no building.
@Blob Yeah, I'll be using Boost as well.
 
@Blob cough
 
@sehe hey, you'll just end up getting more rep in the end
 
Good form: often. Easy to use: seldom. Fuckups: many hidden
 
FluidSynth maybe?
 
@Blob :D
 
9:59 PM
I love greeks
 
@Cinch That's a fairly...narrow definition (IMO).
 
So the list I have now is: Boost, SFML, Sol, FluidSynth
@JerryCoffin (for windows)
 

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