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12:00 AM
@BartekBanachewicz sure, they need not become a virtuoso
 
that's why I was thinking a keyboard, you don't need to tune it - just plug it in and you can play
also on headphones so parents yelling at you to turn down aren't a problem
 
@milleniumbug Tk is old and nobody remembers about it
Not worth looking at
GTK or Qt are p much the only choices
@milleniumbug Wrong thing
 
@BartekBanachewicz also you never know, perhaps one of the parents might jam in their spare time :P??
 
@BartekBanachewicz You might still be able to surprise them if you're sufficiently subtle/sneaky. For example, if you put together a playlist of music that was dominated by different instruments, and paid attention to which they seemed to like the best. Another possibility would be to pick something you're sure they wouldn't like, and talk a little about how it makes those boring mainstream keyboards and guitars seem lame by comparison, and see what they try to defend (but that could backfire).
 
@Morwenn PySide pls
 
12:03 AM
@CatPlusPlus If only it was still activey maintained :(
 
It... is? Regardless PyQt is GPL only
 
@CatPlusPlus Wasn't it dual licensed?
 
Well, yes, if you want to buy a commercial one
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz hory shet
how old are you?
 
@BartekBanachewicz OTOH, tuning a guitar is kind of a nice "entry"--something they can learn fairly quickly and have some sense of real accomplishment. (I seem to be playing devil's advocate here, but that's honestly not my intent, at least at the moment).
 
12:05 AM
@JerryCoffin eh, I guess that could work if I actually was at home often enough to check at them and help them. I gave my brother one of my guitars but (duh) he didn't feel motivated enough to practice - I don't blame him. I think either keyboard or a guitar are so versatile that either would do just to get them into music; they can pick their instrument of choice later if they choose to
@Ell 23
 
@CatPlusPlus Oh right, there has been an update this year. I wasn't sure there would be updates anymore.
 
Ell
maybe they don't want to get into music at all o.O
 
@JerryCoffin I agree, but (looking at my own practice), everything that adds friction to your practice is gonna hold you back. You want the simplest setup possible.
 
@StackedCrooked coliru is awesome :)
@BartekBanachewicz flute it is
 
@Ell Maybe. But I think they should be given a fair share to try. I first picked up a guitar in my highschool, before that I could never see myself play an instrument.
 
12:06 AM
@Morwenn What's still lots-of-WIP is Qt5 support last I looked
 
It stuck like hell.
 
But otherwise it should be fine
I'd probably use GTK3 over Qt anyway
 
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz Some kids are just going to be completely uninterested in playing music though.
 
@ScarletAmaranth hey I remember playing flute when I was 6 years old
 
@ScarletAmaranth Well I gave my father my recorder :) But this is the kind of instrument that doesn't give you the punchy response
 
Ell
12:07 AM
@BartekBanachewicz really?
 
@Ell that's my opinion. (I mean I understand it more than a mere mortal but still)
 
Ell
I thought it wasn't too complicated but idk much really
it's an intuitive idea is what I mean
 
@Ell the application isn't.
 
@BartekBanachewicz yeah but flute is "zero overhead / friction"; you take it you play it
 
@Lalaland And that's fine, but I think you can never tell unless you really try.
 
12:08 AM
@JerryCoffin a surprise gift can work depending on age and general interests
 
Ell
I think gtk3 is really nice
the look & feel I mean
And I have used gtkmm before and it's been p easy
 
my brother generally mentioned that he wanted to learn guitar
but he's a kinda person that needs a push
 
buy him a banjo
 
@JerryCoffin tuning a guitar is rarely something that kids learn easily (I would agree, but I see loads of pupils struggling even with automatic tuning devices)
 
or a harp
 
12:10 AM
if it's gonna be stringed, it's guitar. By far the most versatile, tons of materials, tons of ready to play songs
 
lol harp
 
cheap strings and accessories
 
@ScarletAmaranth make sure it's a chromatic concert harp!
 
@sehe mmm; I am borderline pitch-deaf and can tune a guitar :-\
 
yeah. you know. I'm just calling what I see. Not defending it
 
12:11 AM
strange
 
@sehe yeah I guess you're the one with the most experience in teaching kids music
 
GTK is easier to make bindings for
 
@ScarletAmaranth I'm pretty sure it's a cultural thing. Says a lot about the lack of expectations in younger generations... ?
 
They tend to be better and more complete
 
@BartekBanachewicz Not really. I avoid it
 
12:12 AM
@sehe why?
 
But I see kids getting taught quite a bit
 
Qt is in C++ and even its C++ API ranges from bad to meh
 
@BartekBanachewicz PATIENCE. I don't have it :)
 
@sehe Hmm...odd, I found it quite easy (in fact, it's nearly all I ever learned to do with a guitar), but that's a pretty tiny sample.
 
12:13 AM
well then, I'm wondering what's the baseline price for a keyboard to be usable for learning
 
Oh, I didn't realize PySide2 actually existed.
 
Ell
@sehe now, that's not true :P
 
You're right. I have patience. I just don't know how to teach kids stuff that (like @JerryCoffin, perhaps) I found easy
 
> No, it hasn't MIDI PORT. Its for kids only
 
@sehe yeah it has to do with completely pointless formal education and little to no competition between peers as a result; I am not a big believer in "you're born with X units of smart and that's what you have to work with" - study, wonder, explore, study some more, struggle, solve problems, fail to solve problems, rinse & repeat
 
12:15 AM
I guess I just got below the baseline
 
@BartekBanachewicz depends on what you want to learn
@BartekBanachewicz indeed
 
this yamaha one looks pretty okay
looks killer for me anyway, like an instrument from late 80s
otoh for the same price you can get the "digital piano" models which would prolly be much better in quality
 
Ell
I think having midi over usb would be fun for a kid
it was for me :P
I used to use Noteworthy Composer
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'd look at used equipment. For every keyboard that really gets played, there must be at least a hundred that never get past making a few noises on Christmas day, and virtually never even touched again.
 
Ell
wow, retro
 
12:19 AM
@JerryCoffin sort of like women; AMIRIIIITE high fiiiiive?
 
Ell
even with an MDI
 
nope, noone?
 
Ell
@ScarletAmaranth lol inb4 banned
 
12:19 AM
@ScarletAmaranth Not gonna even touch that one.
 
Codes of Conduct need to die
 
@JerryCoffin very good idea
@milleniumbug how's that
> This is just another logical step in providing an alternative F# community where the participants do not need to worry about abuse by corporate power or social justice harassment.
I don't get that.
The rhetorics drip of aggression IMO
 
SJW movement is a serious wart tho
2
 
Yeah. I get that. However being reactionary like that is almost as childish as that episode recently in the lounge.
 
@sehe Well, I find the entire idea of "you need a code of conduct, you must have one or we'll harass you" wrong
 
12:22 AM
There is really almost zero need to get aggressive over mild stupidity
@milleniumbug Is that in the CoC?
 
@sehe it's implied by SJWs, again
 
Where
Also, what gives. That doesn't make the CoC a problem.
 
@sehe cue the not-so-long-ago "why are you accepting PRs from this guy who's a homophobe on twitter"
 
Unless it's a bad code
 
12:23 AM
there were people saying to literally kick the guy out of the project because of his personal opinions held elsewhere
and that was fucked up.
esp. because he was one of the core contribs
 
@BartekBanachewicz wokay. that's edgy. On the flip side, that kind of situation could indeed reflect badly on a project
 
@sehe What was abusive about it? =/
 
off to sleep, nitey nite
behave whilst I'm away!
 
@ScarletAmaranth We will undoubtedly behave. Whether we behave well or badly is open to more question...
 
12:28 AM
@Borgleader Exactly my point. I suppose some previous extreme public event is now associated with /having/ a code of conduct. It seems pretty much out of proportion.
Also, I can totally see why Microsoft wants the CoC on their project
 
@BartekBanachewicz Understatement of the year.
 
I am going to go to sleep before I get into this debate.
Funeral tomorrow.
fucking life.
 
@BartekBanachewicz s/life/death/
 
both really
 
@jaggedSpire hello /cc @TonyTheLion @Morwenn
 
12:32 AM
@Borgleader Hello :3
I'm going to sleep soon. See you later :)
 
@Morwenn night
 
@fredoverflow I watched your recursion/parsing video. Nice :)
 
laffo
 
wait it was his video right? anxiety intensifies
 
12:38 AM
@Borgleader Thanks ^_^
 
@Morwenn G'night.
 
You are currently at Stackoverflow, sites you might also finding interesting include: twitter, reddit
 
Watched the new Star Wars
 
@CatPlusPlus yup, that was the wrong message in the transcript
May 6 at 19:30, by Cat Plus Plus
IMGUIs are so terrible
 
12:56 AM
@Borgleader thanks
 
Ha, just noticed Borgleader's new avatar. Kinda doesn't go with the name because adorables.
 
@ElimGarak I wanted something glorious for a while
 
long time no pee
 
@ElimGarak What? Have you been stuck writing C again?
 
1:12 AM
lol
 
user406009
@BartekBanachewicz We can drag in a UI library if necessary for more complicated UI components.
 
Ell
Well Jesus Christ even the Linux Foundation has pulled funding for the SFC
 
I've had this weird idea for a GUI - you create a widget and provide it with events. Then you can get an image for rendering from it which you render, and you can check for events
 
@Lalaland gimme a week or two. I don't think we're in a hurry, huh? :)
BTW take a look at the Asana
might wanna start filling it in
 
essentially a non-framework GUI library
 
1:22 AM
@milleniumbug that's close to what I want to do
 
> no - 8 months ago
 
@BartekBanachewicz Oh god.
> This is why people say the tech industry is unwelcoming to diversities: unless @elia is removed from the project, I cannot learn Ruby, and thus can't get a job in Ruby development.
 
> I could not even finish watching this dog. - April 20th, 2014
 
The project is not the Ruby language, for context
 
@Borgleader :3
 
1:31 AM
@BartekBanachewicz should be nice enough for gamedev (or when someone writes their own event loop)
 
started playing underrail at around 11
eyes hurt brain smoking
its almost 4
 
RIP
 
it's so good omg
 
@JerryCoffin Worse, "Objective-C++14".
@AlexM. I am trying to like Pillars of Eternity
 
I did not play it
 
@ElimGarak RIP
@Borgleader :D
 
@ElimGarak That still has "Pee" in the name, at least a couple of times (though in this case, the "minus" of "objective" far outweighs anything positive a couple of pluses afterward could hope to add).
 
I think I'm gonna go to bed early tonight. Not right now, but in maybe two hours
 
@Borgleader Necessary, since all of us in the Lounge are (of course) so famous and/or beautiful, that we're all constantly being hit on by all manner of creeps, and need clever new ways to get rid of them.
 
Yeah, I can't walk outside the house without the bitches taking notice...
My neighbor's dogs, that is.
 
1:39 AM
they bark at you?
 
I don't really walk outside the house but if I did I bet there'd be a lot of creeps around
5
wtf stars
 
I don't know, I am tired and I let others do the starring for me, I just bandwagoned
 
it's funny in a way I won't/can't describe
 
made context obvious
 
1:47 AM
Is there anyone who wants to be pinged when I post red pandas that isn't on this list (or alternately is and doesn't want to be): Borgleader, ElimGarak, ThePhD, TonyTheLion, WGhost, Xeo, набиячлэвэлиь
 
can we post hot anime chicks instead
 
I feel like I've missed someone
@AlexM. do whatever you want, bby
 
@jaggedSpire Morween?
 
@Borgleader apparently prefers catching them as they're posted
I've been pinging from memory thus far, and feel that I might want to make and save a list instead
 
Hmmmm, it seems not only "Constant function" documentation is not informative, it's also wrong
 
1:51 AM
@AlexM. nope
 
The constant function is a thing I get when calling const with a single argument
The docs OTOH say const is a constant function
 
Ahahaha get it.
 
haw haw
 
veri funi
 
@milleniumbug it appears to be frequent muddling, e.g. first two lines here
(K is const)
 
1:56 AM
(yeah, I'm still grieving about that, but I won't let go until it's fixed, because it seems to be an elephant-in-the-room problem - I could fix this if the docs were a public wiki like cppreference was)
 
@milleniumbug the docs are generated from the code, you can submit PR/patches
 
Hey, can I? Excellent - will try it tomorrow!
 
well, so I’ve been told—it comes up all the time whenever the state of Haskell docs is discussed (yes this happens all the time)
 
What happens to a woman if she falls down the stairs?
 
a man picked at random takes the blame
 
2:01 AM
@ElimGarak The stairs break into matchsticks (if it was your mom).
 
Nothing, if she doesn't shatter the beer bottles!
 
ayyy
> TIL On May 25th, 2015 a man discovered an orphaned baby moose in Yellowstone National Park in Montana. When he reported the calf to local authorities they shot the baby and blew up the carcasses of it, it's dead mother and sibling to prevent grizzly bears from being drawn to the area.
that exploded quickly
 
I guess their budget couldn't handle a relocation. Exchange relocation for a bit of recoil.
Oh, wow, spot on. @Borgleader
 
@ElimGarak Thats really good cosplay, but I was never really fond of Jack.
Jack would not Netflix & Cuddle :(
 
@Borgleader Me neither, she seemed to be beyond repair. She has that tender moment at the end of ME2 and then turns into a bitch in ME3, once more. And the save loading mechanism is broken, so she slaps you for not destroying the Collector base even though you did.
 
2:17 AM
 
@Borgleader Ahahah, wut
 
D:
 
I can't get enough of Carrie Fisher
 
wokay, bed time
 
She is so cute
 
2:19 AM
Rey > Leia, just saying
 
Sure, but I mean in real life Carrie Fisher's sense of humor is above all
 
Hmmm, it seems that the GitHub repo in the first result of google search is not the haskell base repo
 
@AngryShoe oh, i wouldnt know, ive never seen an interview with her.
might google some tomorrow
 
It's actually this git.haskell.org/ghc.git
 
2:23 AM
you found the phabricator thing right
 
now I have to clone it, create a new branch, write new docs, and them convince somebody to actually include it
Maybe I'll try with the docs first
 
> And there was this guy who asked me: "Are you princess Leia?" And I told him "Yes." and he said "Well, I thought about you every day from when I was 12 to when I was 22". So I asked "Everyday?" and he replied "Only 4 times a day."
 
2:44 AM
> Returns an unary constant function (a funtion that returns the same value for all inputs) from the argument `a`

Sample usage: `foldl (+) 0 $ map (const 1) [1..25]`
can someone review this?
 
What about it?
 
It's what I plan to commit as the replacement for the docs on the const function in Haskell
 
Sounds ok
 
(for completeness, the current one is hackage.haskell.org/package/base-4.8.1.0/docs/… )
 
3:17 AM
for me? /cc @Borgleader @TonyTheLion @ThePhD @набиячлэвэлиь
 
@milleniumbug Can’t say I like that example
 
user406009
@milleniumbug I would suggest simplifying the sample.
 
user406009
Just do map (const 1) [1..25]
 
it’s not unusual for examples in haddocks to show equalities, not meaning an actual == call in code but mathematical identity
e.g. const 5 () == 5
 
user406009
@LucDanton I think it's useful to have practical examples of how and why you would use something though.
 
3:20 AM
 
user406009
It's not obvious that const can be used nicely with currying.
 
Yeah, the example needs to be simplified
 
@Lalaland what is practical about map (const 1) [1..25] and why would you use something like that?
 
The example is (slightly) practical, but not simple enough
 
no it’s not practical
wtf
 
user406009
3:21 AM
@LucDanton It shows how you can use const to form a useful constant function by using currying.
 
user406009
You have used const 1 to create a nice a -> Num function that always returns 1.
 
@Lalaland I don’t dispute that
what does 'practical' mean to you?
Writing a list to immediately discard its contents is reeeeaaally intercoursing unusual is what I’m getting at
 
user406009
How that feature/function can be used to achieve some goal.
 
user406009
And the goal there was to create an a -> b function with a constant output.
 
3:24 AM
The original example is a length function implementation, but it's not simple enough, so that won't fly
 
this one uses = for mathematical equality… which I should have thought of
I would have liked to point to (<*) but sadly the docs don’t mention const
oh man I’m actually thinking of (<$)
 
user406009
@LucDanton Yeah, but those are much more difficult to understand than map (const 1) [1..25]
 
@Lalaland I’m not suggesting to use them as examples
it’s like id
what do you give as an abstract example of the usefulness of id?
personally I like groupOn id = group etc., they remind me of things like product = foldr (*) 1
when I think of const it’s the (<$) and (<*) functions that come to mind
 
user406009
I don't think abstract examples are all that useful.
 
user406009
Practical examples are much more useful for understanding how to use something.
 
user406009
3:32 AM
Like "here is fix and here is how you use it to write anonymous recursive functions"
 
again, what does 'practical' mean to you
there is nothing practical about filling a list to immediately discard the contents
 
user406009
The practical part is the use of (const 1)
 
user406009
It's the use of const to create another function through currying.
 
then by Occam’s why not get rid of all the noise around?
 
user406009
That noise provides some context for how such a function could be used.
 
3:33 AM
is print $ map (const 1) [1..25] a practical example as well?
what about putStrLn "Hello" >> print (map (const 1) [1..25])
 
Well, I think I get it. Sadly, I'm out of ideas for now.
Thanks for the responses.
Now I really have to sleep.
 
user406009
@milleniumbug Good night.
 
@Lalaland I meant abstract as in generic (which id and const are)
well, not just that
the opposite of a very specific example such as const 5 () = 5
general? maybe that’s it
I’m lookin’ for identities
 
user406009
In general, the more concrete the easier it is to understand something.
 
user406009
At least, that's my own personal experience.
 
3:41 AM
I don’t care
I’m still lookin’ for identities
 
user406009
People have trouble grasping monads in general but learn specific monads like Promise and Maybe much quicker.
 
okay maybe I have to spell it out but I’m not suggesting examples
 
user406009
Yeah, it looks like you are looking for more "advanced" documentation.
 
2 mins ago, by Luc Danton
I’m lookin’ for identities
dude it’s like right here
I’m not looking for documentation
I’m lookin’ for identities, for the sake of finding identities
I like them
 
user406009
Oh, I thought you were making a more general statement of wanting to have identities in the documentation (which the Haskell docs do tend to do).
 
user406009
3:43 AM
My misunderstanding. Sorry.
 
yeah I don’t know that I want or not
I would surely appreciate that the docs for product mentions product = foldr (*) 1, the specific pointing to the general
and I would appreciate that one of group or groupOn (but which? that’s complicated) mentions groupOn id = group
but surely groupOn id = group does not belong in the documentation for id, even though it’s one of the foremost thing I have in mind when it comes to the usefulness of id
 
hullo lads
 
@jaggedSpire Hey, that's MY line!
 
:3
 
@jaggedSpire See? Look. Dogs appreciate these things. Dogs are happy. A cat? A cat would just look at you, make you feel like the scum of the earth, and then ignore your gift entirely.
 
3:52 AM
@ThePhD that's a fox
 
user406009
@nick Trying to understand some pointfree Haskell code.
 
user406009
It's quite painful.
 
@jaggedSpire Oh.
... Well, in other news, my Physics exam went pretty good!
 
user406009
> ((f .) .) . g
 
user406009
@ThePhD Congrats!
 
3:54 AM
I blanked on a bunch of
 
user406009
@ThePhD Are you now fully free?
 
thermodynamics stuff
so I know I lost myself a hefty chunk of points there.
But the rest was gud.
@Lalaland No, other exam on Wednesday.
Linear Algebra
Eigeneigeneigeneigeneigeneigeneigeneigeneigeneigeneigeneigeneigeneigen
 
user406009
An exam that close to Christmas?
 
user406009
Really?
 
Really really.
 
3:55 AM
@ThePhD nice!
 
I go home on the night of Christmas Eve.
 
wow
 
But that's really only
because the bus ticket was cheapest then.
Every other day I was looking at a +20 USD differential, or more.
 
@Lalaland like floating point code?
ez I'm really good at that type of stuff
expert in fact
 
night
 
4:02 AM
@jaggedSpire you out?
night!
@ThePhD congrats man
@ThePhD isnt that undergrad stuff?
 
user406009
@nick Yeah, linear algebra is standard undergrad material.
 
user406009
Required for graduation at my school at least.
 
user406009
I also took it this semester.
 
user406009
(Luckily, my school had exams ~2 weeks ago)
 
@ThePhD You're sounding pretty selfish right now.
 
user406009
4:17 AM
Ok, I think I'll give up on trying to intuitive understand how the (.) operator works in more complicated situations.
 
user406009
It just doesn't make any sense at all.
 
user3047181
4:32 AM
Yeah linear algebra is for total noobulons
 
@Lalaland I think my brother just finished it, he's a freshman lol
 
Is the behaviour of this program undefined according to standard? cpp.sh/663e
 
user3047181
4:47 AM
Defining destructors explicitly is soooo 98
 
user406009
5:03 AM
@nick these sort of classes can be taken whenever. They are pretty much useless and have no prereqs.
 
user406009
I don't even know why they are in the graduation requirements.
 
user406009
They should be removed.
 
user406009
But alas, they should remove like half of the graduation requirements.
 
user406009
(If not more)
 
@Lalaland Help me study some more later! \o/
 
6:00 AM
@Lalaland Linear algebra can be pretty useful for some kinds of things (I've certainly written code that used it heavily).
 
user406009
@JerryCoffin Lots of things can be useful. The question is what should be considered necessary.
 
@Lalaland In this case, I think it's worthwhile to learn enough that you're at least aware of them anyway. I've seen quite a bit of code that could have put them to good use, but instead used other methods that were less effective, I'd guess because the coder didn't know what he should have used. That said, it's certainly true that a lot of classes seem (to me) to spend too much time on the plumbing, and not enough on the use.
 
6:42 AM
anyone familiar with lambda functions?
can someone show me an example of a function that receives a lambda as argument?
the right approach is to use std::function?
is there any other approach?
without using std libaries?
 
@JerryCoffin Proofproofproofproofproofproofproof q-q
Proofs make me the sads.
 
7:00 AM
function pointers seems find by me
 
7:12 AM
plz no c++ here
it makes me sick
@JerryCoffin design is an important stage nonetheless
 
Xeo
7:25 AM
mornin
 
Morning.
Eigenvalues.
 
7:42 AM
@bitcode template<typename Func>
 
7:55 AM
@Darklighter yes, let the compiler work for you.
 
@fredoverflow yay \o/
 

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