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12:00 AM
Nah. Window of opportunity gone. Not funny anymore
 
@sehe Tsk, what did I say about quoting this. The link is crafted for the sidebar.
 
@CatPlusPlus You forgot to put that on the starboard then.
 
I made bit.ly/loungelaw to throw at people directly, should be easy to type :v
 
user1804599
@HamZa dat videogame
 
user1804599
12:02 AM
lol the background on the page
 
so I heard that that 2048 thing has for some reason apparently become some kind of Internet sensation
 
It's trivial to implement and was fun, so of course there's a million unfun clones
 
actually 2048 is kind of a clone too
 
@rightfold serious or just joking ?
 
of 1024
 
12:04 AM
You know what will make this game better?? Stupid memes repeated ad nauseam
2
 
user1804599
@HamZa watwatwat ik bos jou
 
@HamZa nice try
 
lol it was a serious question. I think I shouldn't take things seriously in room10
 
@CatPlusPlus reminds me. I should make the Broccoli variation.
@HamZa There's an apparent contradiction there.
 
@sehe serious question from my part
 
12:06 AM
You claim to think, yet somehow the seriousness was still topic for debate. Nah. Doesn't work.
 
user1804599
Opel Insignia y u so expensive.
 
@sehe lolwut, you win
 
user1804599
I had a nice piece of cock from the butcher’s last week.
 
user1804599
It was defuckinglicious.
 
12:09 AM
I eat babies ... suckling piglets are delicious ...
 
apparently the JS room have more moderation power over the room?
 
nope all rooms same
 
they have this bot which can mute people or something
 
user1804599
The room is locked.
 
user1804599
The bot auto-whitelists every new user.
 
user1804599
12:14 AM
But owners can tell the bot to remove users from the whitelist and not re-add them automatically.
 
and that's a bad idea because...?
 
user1804599
It is not a bad idea.
 
user1804599
It is the best you can do.
 
many of the owners here feel that the locked icon puts new users off
even if you approve everyone who asks to speak.
 
user1804599
It is the only thing you can do about fuckers like that cricket idiot.
 
12:23 AM
2778
A: What is the name of this operator: "-->"?

Charles SalviaThat's not an operator -->. That's two separate operators, -- and >. Your condition code is decrementing x, while returning xs original (not decremented) value, and then comparing the original value with 0 using the > operator. To better understand, the statement could be as follows: while( (x...

bullshit, that's the downto operator
everyone knows that
 
Xeo
we had the room in gallery mode for a while, and general consensus was 'fuck it'
 
ic
 
Workarounds
Stupid workarounds
 
workarounds are great - every thing is solveable, accepting compromise is the key to happy living ^_^
 
12:47 AM
> Jim, Obama is a COMMUNIST. He is NOT a socialist. He wants a Communist government and wants us to be the USSR, West. Why are people so afraid to call Obama what he is?
 
user1804599
This doesn’t even look like a pyramid. :v populationpyramid.net/qatar
 
1:12 AM
@EtiennedeMartel :tinfoil:
 
user1804599
1:23 AM
Obama is tinfoil.
 
1:37 AM
is a female calico cat who gained fame for being a station master and operating officer at Kishi Station on the Kishigawa Line in Kinokawa, Wakayama, Japan. Early life and adoption Tama was born in Kinokawa, Wakayama, and was raised with a group of stray cats that used to live close to Kishi Station. They were regularly fed by passengers and by Toshiko Koyama, who was informal station manager at the time. The station was almost shut down in 2004 because of financial problems. Around this time, Koyama adopted Tama. Eventually the decision to shut down the station was withdrawn after the ...
 
Xeo
oh Japan
 
user3010322
Nihonguuuuuuuuuu~
 
Xeo
err
think about that word for a second
 
@AlexM. wuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut
 
yeah my reaction exactly
 
2:21 AM
I wonder if I have an ear infection or something. My right ear seems to be swollen on the inside and my hearing is all muffled. Dammit, and I just saw a doc yesterday (before all this started).
 
2:35 AM
maybe the doctor infected you :'(
Did the doctor touch your ear?
 
depending on how he touched your ear, you might not want to go back there
he might think you want things to get serious between you two
 
he didn't touch my ear at all, I was there for getting my inhaler prescription
it's a group practice, so it might be a difference doctor if I don't mention a preference
 
Xeo
phew, finally finished with adding my backlog of vocabulary to my notebook. 92 words / expressions, been a while. time to sleep
 
learning vocab?
 
Xeo
ya
 
2:39 AM
are you taking japanese classes?
 
Xeo
nope
 
Xeo
I'm learning from a book, which includes vocabulary between lessons. I usually read it on the go, which makes it kinda difficult to write down vocab
(writing hiragana in a shaky bus is annoying)
 
Cool.
 
0
Q: Fare Chart in HTML: What should I do to add a sidebar?

UtkarshI am a beginner and I have made a fare Chart in HTML. I'm pretty sure it will look horrible to any developer out there, but hey, that's why I've posted it. What should I do to add a sidebar with some content? <html> <body BACKGROUND=1.gif TEXT=green><table border="1"><font face=comic sans ms><h1>...

why is it closed?
 
Xeo
2:41 AM
I've been through 3 lessons without writing down any vocab, so the backlog grew a bit too big for my taste
@Utkarsh why do you think we would know / care?
 
because it is stackoverflow chat
 
Xeo
yeahno. try elsewhere, we're a C++ room.
welp, g'night. gotta get up semi-early 'tomorrow'
 
alright
good night!
 
@Utkarsh It's not "stack overflow"'s chat. It's just a chat room about C++.
 
Although most of the times, the conversation has anything to do with C++
 
2:54 AM
4AM TIME FOR COFFEE
@EtiennedeMartel It's a chat room about people who happen to know C++, more like
 
@CatPlusPlus SSsshhh
He linked to a HTML question.
 
If my coffee has viscosity closer to that of a gel, it means it should be good, right?
 
I figured it might push it away.
 
It's a SO chat room that evolved into room for friends. Or something.
I'm starting to prefer homebrew over macports.
 
You're using OSX you lost anyway
 
3:01 AM
I knew that was coming :P
brew install installs in /usr/local and doesn't require sudo.
 
That's a really crappy permission set if /usr/local is writeable without sudo
 
It normally isn't.
 
So it does use sudo
 
But I see the owner of /usr/local is me now.
 
:lol:
 
3:04 AM
Better than ritually using the sudo authentication dance.
 
OSX devs, almost as bad at permissions as PHP devs
How often do you install crap
Also, you can install to ~
 
I guess I could do that.
 
I should stop asking for stuff - I get what asked for but it's not what I wanted. Also needs to be less dumb :/
 
3:24 AM
even your mother can do it
 
ooh, google wallet is now available in Romania
I guess that also means Romanian devs are allowed on the store
 
3:40 AM
I wouldn't be so sure about that
 
4:13 AM
rare footage of @telkitty.exe diving
 
lol
speaking of which I am going diving again next month
and over night hiking trip
 
Prevent accidental copy by making the copy constructor private and provide public copy method?
 
Cant you just make the copy ctor explicit?
 
I'm not really familiar with that.
Explicit copy means that it requires Item a(b); syntax right?
 
Also, forgot operator=
 
4:20 AM
I disabled it.
Implicitly :P
I didn't forget, I swear...
 
default is disabled?
 
huh?
Oh
I messed up.
 
Did you mean = delete?
 
Yeah, the copy assignment operator needed to be deleted.
I don't really see the point of explicit copy constructor though. AFAIK it only removes Item a = b; syntax.
 
I dont see the point of the copy method =/
In fact copy is worse in terms of performance too (if you want to copy init)
thats just dumb
 
4:24 AM
@StackedCrooked This idiom sort of exists.
Except not in the way you show it
 
@Borgleader If the copy can cause performance degradation. (My real life example is an object which holds a shared_ptr as member. Copying is not really expensive, but I process millions of them per seconds and the atomic refcount starts to give noticable overhead.)
 
The prototype pattern is a creational design pattern in software development. It is used when the type of objects to create is determined by a prototypical instance, which is cloned to produce new objects. This pattern is used to: * avoid subclasses of an object creator in the client application, like the abstract factory pattern does. * avoid the inherent cost of creating a new object in the standard way (e.g., using the 'new' keyword) when it is prohibitively expensive for a given application. To implement the pattern, declare an abstract base class that specifies a pure virtual clone...
 
@StackedCrooked I dont see how thats helped by the copy method =/ Youre just trading a builtin mechanism so to speak for a more verbose and manual one
 
teaching my VA to ask meaningful questions, the results are spot on
it may not look like it, but that question has deep philosophical implications
 
Sam
Higuys..!
@Rapptz Great!
 
4:35 AM
@AlexM. "VA"? "Violent Angel"? "Valuable Anteater"? Wait--I've got it: "Vowed Anti-disciplinarian"!
 
more like virtual assistant
I thought about it and that's the best term to describe what I'm working on there
 
@AlexM. I liked my ideas better, I think.
 
well we can call it a valuable anteater if you want
 
violated angel ... Q_Q
 
4:58 AM
I can't help myself :P
 
John is an extremely long lived male rabbit?
 
that or he's one of my relatives from the countryside
around those parts it's a bit weird to have a family w/o at least 5 kids
I'll never be able to understand that
 
Me neither.
My brother and sister are younger than me and they both have kids.
When I visit I get a headache from all the squealing and crying and shit.
It's not for me :/
 
lol I know that feeling, whenever it gets warm outside my neighbor gets her 3 yo noisemaker to play near my window
last time I heard a cat get angry and him starting to cry
I secretly hoped the cat started murdering him
also because of my relatives' policy towards reproduction, I now have this huge List<Relative> that I have to iterate through whenever there's a family reunion and shit, just to make sure everyone understands that I don't like them
 
5:12 AM
this year I've heard I was chosen to be some toddler's godfather (a bit different from what godfather means in the US though; it's mostly a honorary title, with few obligations, but one that follows you for the rest of your life)
I was like, wtf
I never even spoke with those particular relatives; we had 0 contact ever since I was born
why the hell did they choose me
anyway, enough of my rambling lol
I should pack and go to work
 
Alright. Have fun :)
 
I used to not able to stand kids, especially the crying kind, and were more individualistic. Now I think it would be a cool idea to live on a farm rearing 10 kids :p
 
@AlexM. we call it peter and meter (female)
it's like the french parrain and marraine
 
To bad, I must work for the Goddess of singleton because my closest girlfriends are not married, my closet guy friends are not married, even my thesis supervisor and closest cousin are not married
 
@StackedCrooked right but usually you pick someone you have some contact with
 
5:48 AM
morning yawn
 
Why would anyone want to rewrite 500.000 - 700.000. LOC C++ code in C when there are no resource and compiler constraints?
 
@telkitty.exe find a partner and breed your own? :P
@LaszloPapp one wouldn't
 
One is suffering from such a situation in a project.
Some people say it is easier to find C developers.
 
@LaszloPapp but you know you shouldn't go for the developers that are easiest to find. Or else you'd end up with some crappy buggy php stuff ;-)
 
no, I mean it is easier to find experienced C developers than experienced C++.
That is that some people say.
 
5:57 AM
@LaszloPapp you shouldnt go only for experienced either. Because mere experience does not make them good developers.
 
no, some companies will not afford juniors to train for years before becoming really productive.
 
and to migrate the 500kloc C++ project to C takes a C++ dev. You can put that guy into maintenance of the project and be done with it.
 
Rewriting 500KLOC is plain dumb, no matter the languages involved
But hey if you want to spend years and not have anything to show after those years and go out of business then sure have fun
 
a lot of banks still use COBOL
 
@LaszloPapp it does not take years of training for a rookie with some C++ knowledge to become productive if it is a good rookie.
 
6:01 AM
Also switching to C will make the code unmaintainable as shit
Also training people is always cheaper than rewriting
 
@CatPlusPlus I wouldn't say that. You can write maintainable, object oriented code in C...
 
@ArneMertz: it does not take C++ devs if you have good specs, no.
if you have good specs, you do not even need to look into the existing C++ code.
 
@ArneMertz It'll still be shit and require 3x the time and effort invested as equivalent in any other language
Don't use C, unless it's absolutely fucking required
 
@LaszloPapp if you go after specs, it's not a migration but a complete rewrite. Because the program never complete matches the specs.
 
Also don't believe for a second there's more good C devs than good C++ devs
 
6:03 AM
@ArneMertz: I do think it takes several years to become a good C++ developer. It is not an easy thing to become really good.
 
In fact there's not many good C devs at all, and most of them are in embedded
@LaszloPapp It takes several years to become a good C developer, too
C is not any easier than C++
 
@ArneMertz: C++ -> C is a rewrite by definition.
 
In fact, it's harder
 
C is harder than C++ because you have to deal with low level savagery
imo
 
some people think C++ is almost C, but it is just not. The only thing that sucks in C+++ is the C inheritage. :-)
 
6:04 AM
but who am i kidding idk what im talking about
 
C is harder because it's utterly unhelpful
Also there's plenty of bad in C++, not just C crap
 
@LaszloPapp depends... you can have guys that know enough about C++ without ever having written a program beyond a few hundred lines.
 
But seriously if you think you can do a rewrite, you're terrible at everything and will bankrupt
 
@CatPlusPlus: the C inheritage is an unfixable crap, hence rust and other attempts to do it from scratch.
 
I am aware of those things thanks
 
6:06 AM
there are other issues, too, but those are mostly fixable as the language evolves.
 
@LaszloPapp it's not a rewrite from scratch if you port the behavior you have to the other language, maintaining the overall structure of the program.
 
@CatPlusPlus: no, it depends on the investment, really, and the plans. You cannot say "bankrupt" ultimately. It is perfectly possible that you do not need to rewrite everything, just X%, but with future proof dev team. It is also possible that you have enough money and time to rewrite.
 
No, you don't
 
but if you go after the specs rather than after what you already implemented in the other lang, then its a rewrite from scratch and destined to fail.
 
Esp not when switching to a crappier language
Take the time those 500KLOC took to write, multiply by 5, that's your estimate for the rewrite
 
6:08 AM
meh
You see it all black and white, and that makes it pointless to discuss. A rewrite also allows a lot of design issues fixed.
 
By switching to C
Yeah no
 
As I prefer C++, I do not find it reasonable, but if it is really easier to find C developers in that area... I do not know, it may be legit, but then again, it is not my cup of tea, personally.
 
But no, please, go ahead. We'll ask how it goes in 10 years
 
let us ask in 10 years if you are still fanatic. :)
 
Fanatic of what?
 
6:12 AM
never mind.
 
Not being an idiot? Yeah, sure, I'll go with that. Rewriting is dumb and unnecessary, unless the system is completely 100% FUBAR
(I don't even use C++, if you need full disclosure, it's a terrible language for horrible people)
(And C is still worse)
If you can find C developers, then just retrain them
Anyone who identifies as "X developer" is probably bad but w/e
 
yeah, retrain everyone for 5-10 years to start becoming productive without hand-holidng; what an idea...
 
It's much better idea to abandon the system and start replicating 500KLOC of functionality, yes (hint: it will take longer)
If you can find experienced C developers, they can learn C++ in way less than 5 years
Even gasp idiomatic C++
 
learning C++ != senior or even principal.
 
If it takes them 10 yrs to adjust to C++... they're terrible, I'm sorry =/
 
6:17 AM
(And switching only parts of codebase to C is even dumber, because it increases the cognitive overhead of maintaining it)
Much smaller-scoped rewrites fail completely
It's just something You Do Not Do
 
You are 22 years old. I do not expect you to have huge industrial experience. You do not consider business factors, and that is fine. They will come once you work with people deciding about the business.
 
I am considering the business factor of never finishing the goddamn project, but hey, yeah w/e have fun
 
I wish I had something to do
I regret that 6 hour nap.
 
@LaszloPapp *re*training never takes 5-10 years. Either they are good developers in some language, then it does not take too long to learn a new language. Or they are bad developers, then 5-10 years won't help.
 
+1 with 7.5 :-)
or 7.
 
6:21 AM
I'd like to see that business exec's face when they hear "yeah, we'll just throw away all those years of work, so we don't have to train our developers (nevermind that with codebase that large, you have to train devs anyway)"
 
I mean I have lots of ideas, but not thrilled anymore to work on them in my leisure time. :)
 
:allears:
 
@ArneMertz: ok, let us agree to disagree.
 
"And, oh, we'll switch to a language that's actually way less expressive and much harder to get right, so there'll be like 10x as many bugs and also take 3x as much and will be 10x as large"
 
if you think C++ is just a simple extension of C and if one understands C, it is easy to shift, we are not on common ground anyway. They require completely different mental approaches in my opinion which you probably will not share. The whole process is to forget the C thinking completely, that is, what is so hard in your brain. In fact, it is even simpler to start with fresh mind to avoid that.
 
6:22 AM
No, it's not, nobody fucking said that
But if you think there's no skill overlap whatsoever, then you're just dumb and I don't know why I'm bothering with this even
 
"I'd like to see that business exec's face when they hear "yeah, we'll just throw away all those years of work, so we don't have to train our developers (nevermind that with codebase that large, you have to train devs anyway)"" -> Do not worry, it will come with experience, as well as non-swearing diplomatic talking.
 
Yeah, I care much about ~diplomatic~ talking
 
@LaszloPapp I completely agree that C and C++ are different languages. I just say that if a developer is stuck in a fixed mindset, bei it procedural or functional or object oriented, then he is not mentally flexible enough to be a good developer. You don't need to forget the C thinking - you just have to add the C++ thinking as well. If there's no room for it or if the developer in question is not able to quit the C-track then we're back to mentally unflexible again.
 
But no please tell us more about rewriting 500KLOC of code, it's immensely entertaining :allears:
I have like 40KLOC codebase that I would never recommend rewriting even though it's horrible and in a much better language, because it'd cost a small fortune in devtime
 
> cuntional
LOL
 
6:28 AM
@Borgleader edited that already
 
it wasnt when i was typing
 
(twice)
 
@Borgleader Of course he's talking about php. :P
 
bei -> be :)
 
yeah. I do everything for your entertainment :P
 
6:29 AM
@ArneMertz: I personally think you need to forget the C thinking when developing in C++.
 
There's not even a paradigm shift between C and C++, you just have to be good at abstraction and not a total OCD control freak (and if you got these C devs to work on this project then it'll be even funnier)
 
except 1-2 fundamental things that C++ inherited, and flawed, like overlapping pointers, etc.
 
If you're good at C, and can't get proficient with C++ in a year, you're a terrible programmer in general
 
@LaszloPapp . But seriously though, there are a LOT of "C++" APIs out there that is basically written in C.
 
Well, you're a terrible programmer in general anyway because you're a C(++) programmer, but hey
 
6:30 AM
Then Linus Torvalds is a terrible programmer, although the sentence has all kinds of contradiction.
 
Linus is a terrible person
 
Oh, he is. He's only good at extremely low-level code, which is not a very useful skill in general softdev
 
@MarkGarcia: yes, I agree.
 
If being an ass was an olympic sport, Linus would be a world champion.
 
Anyone who can't see why C is a terrible language is not a good programmer
 
6:32 AM
@LaszloPapp on the contrary. Different points of view enable you to be a even better programmer, especially in a multi-paradigm language like C++. There are people that use C++ in a Java-ish "everything MUST be a class" OOP dogmatic style, and there are people who use it as C with classes. Both is bad. You have to know all the styles you can use and use the right one for the tasks at hand.
 
@ArneMertz: ok, so this is what I wrote earlier. You do not agree with that C and C++ require radically different mindset.. That is why I wrote we do not have a common ground in here.
 
They do require a different mindset
 
(and no, I am not the person who thinks is a class language, and not multi-paradigm, although C++ is bad at OOP, admittedly)
 
Where you're wrong is in thinking that you can't acquire it more easily once you already know C
 
@CatPlusPlus anyone who is an anti-C zealot and does not see that it has its uses is a bad programmer, too ;)
 
6:34 AM
@ArneMertz That it has uses doesn't make it a good language
It just means there are no alternatives in some places, which is sad really
 
@ArneMertz: it is good for a very simple and primitive codebase, but nothing beyond IMHO
and you have to use it in existing projects, like the Linux kernel, but that is about it IMHO.
although if you take a closer look at such projects, you see that the Linux kernel is trying to be OOP, too, without the dedicated language, etc.
 
@ArneMertz I agree, but some also point out that uniformity in design (at least local in a module) is a good thing, so when it's Java-ish style, then it's only it. The problem is, they often start with the wrong style.
 
that being said, I do not think C++ is an ideal language either, but it seems to be the bestest considering the available ecosystem when it comes to large and performance critical codebase.
 
@LaszloPapp I think that could only be proved if C++'s old productivity problems are solved.
 
@MarkGarcia: take a look at Rust.
 
6:42 AM
@LaszloPapp Yes and no. You can be decent at C++ and require a certain mindset. Same goes for C. And the "C-mindset" and the "C++-mindset" are vastly different. But to be a good programmer means to go beyond just C or just C++, and you need an open mindset, the ability to adapt other ways of thinking, and to unite the C-mindset, the C++-mindset and others as well.
That's what I mean with mental flexibility, and that is why I think a good programmer can learn different languages and switch between them.
 
ok, let us agree to disagree. :) When you have a huge C++ software to maintain, you do not have time for different mindset. That is your main job, that is what you are getting paid for. You need to give into that particular mindset deeply, and it is not productive not to do your job, but have theoretical flexibility. It is good when you are looking for a form of living, and you try different things, but when you are beyond that, it is much less important.
 
That's why many of the loungers are experimenting with Haskell and other languages - because they are not fixed to C++-thinking and stay mentally flexible.
 
I am not paid for experimenting with Haskell and other languages. I am paid for making the software great and maintain the C++ architecture, add new features and fix bugs. For being productive, it means, being an expert of that area. That is, you have to master the C++ mentality and its application in practice. Not C, not Haskell, not D, etc.
 
@ArneMertz But being flexible also means you should know what to do and what is apt for a certain scenario of that certain language, and knowing all of them can be too taxing, and would take time supposedly allotted for actual development. Of course there are overlaps, but take C and C++.
And that is why most stick to what they learned in college. 80/20. Sad thing.
 
@MarkGarcia not all, but enough to stay flexible.
 
6:48 AM
You really do not want to lead the C++ software architecture with C mentality, or even Haskell.
I just do not see how flexiblity makes any sense, really. I already know how those languages work; not much to learn there. There is this new Rust, but even that, I think I grasped the basic concept really. I really do not understand what flexibility more you would mean. I am not an academic person for being paid to deep into different languages just for the sake of that, and I do not think anyone here is like that.
 
@LaszloPapp yeah we disagree. I have to maintain a 20mloc C++ project, yet breaking out of the ordinary way things have been done there for years enabled me to implement a DSL that hugely improved speed and maintainability in grat parts of the project.
 
what I know for sure, you should forget the C thinking entirely when doing C++.
 
You don't want any ~X mentality~. Languages are tools and if you treat them as something more, you're terrible at programming
 
it is not a "minor" change. It is a completely different mindset from the ground up. And what is worse than C or C++ is mixing the mindset as already written.
 
@CatPlusPlus that.
 
6:55 AM
Maybe not mindset, but context. Different terrain requires different tactics.
 
@MarkGarcia: that is a contradiction -> different tactics -> different mindset -> "maybe not mindset".
I would really not hire anyone and leave a module with that person who thinks it is a great idea to program like in C when doing C++. Flexibility there is just totally wrong. Mixing them just does not make much sense IMHO.
 
@LaszloPapp I didn't know it was about architecture. Since an architecture usually is not dependent on the programming language. The differences between languages usually kick in at lower levels.
 
Sorry? Software Architecture does not depend on the language? :O
If anything, it primarily depends on the language, I would say.
 
@LaszloPapp Tactics is how you use what you have in battle, not having to bring a different rulebook for different scenarios. Different terrain (problems) would bring you different things (tools, paradigms), but should not dictate how you should see or solve the problem.
 
6:59 AM
General design principles are p much universal
 

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