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7:00 AM
0
Q: JQUERY DOESN'T LOAD IN FIREFOX

Florin.BHi I have a simple html page with jquery and it doesn't want to work in firefox, in chrome and ie works perfectly. This is the code: <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd"> <html> <head> <script type="text/javascript" src="jquery-1.10...

dat tag
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XH
:)
 
Or is it...
 
I don't see any BASIC in this question. — Lightness Races in Orbit 3 mins ago
^ That. :P
Hmm. There's actually no PUBLIC keyword in GW/Q Basic. But I somehow remember it in some BASIC code.
 
7:10 AM
@MarkGarcia Oh, I see now
At least I see what you were trying to do!
Um apparently I have to work today sigh
 
@MarkGarcia 3333
 
Xeo
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yeah, sucks when realizing it. :P
 
@Xeo Mondays
Also, I'm late
 
public + basic = publisic
I am tired today, not productive and not making sense either ...
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 Me too...
 
7:23 AM
I had 8 hours sleep last night
how could I be tired?
 
cpx
because life sucks
 
Maybe because I intended to have a glass or two of wine last night, turned out to have twice as much :/
 
is extern int foo;
 
user142019
Sounds like somebody has got a case of the Mondays.
 
the same as
int foo;
(at file scope)
?
 
cpx
7:28 AM
IIRC first is declaration and latter is definition
 
oh ok
 
cpx
so you can't use foo without defining it.
 
I thought int foo was implictly saying extern
but I think i read it in a c book
 
0
A: Allocate data at specific address in windows?

Lightness Races in OrbitHalf the OS's entire job is to prevent you, programs and viruses from doing this. Write your own OS if you wish to write to arbitrary physical memory positions.

lol
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit do you mind re-adding that tag please
 
7:37 AM
@thecoshman I have no idea what you're talking about
haha this
> spelling - no ther isnt any further improvements I can make so i have put in some ......
dat edit
it was suggested and approved, FYI
right.. lateron!
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit o_0 you had originally tagged it 'discussion-on-tags'
 
/me looks around
No ass pictures this morning?
 
Ell
Nope
I think its too early for rightfolds anatomy lessons
 
@thecoshman then a mod removed it and he added it again :D
 
@Tuntuni he did o_0
 
7:44 AM
@thecoshman yup :D i laughed
 
oh, yeah, lightness did, but only just
@Ell s/s anatomy lessons//
@wilx try your mirror
 
morning
 
@TonyTheLion I would say "bit early for readit"... but that would make me a hypocrite
 
Ell
I feel like browsers should have a vm instead of javascript, people just compile to js anyway, cut out the middleman and just run bytecode!
Then You can compile javascript/whatever to bytecode
 
7:54 AM
Tony, @ThePhD seems to be emotionally involved with you after last weekend's one night encounter. I have no idea what you two did in your place alone that night. But he seems to be very satisfied >_<
 
JBL
Mawning, Lounge.
 
user142019
@Ell Make a browser that has it, have it become immensely popular and eventually after a few years it'll be adopted by other browsers and become a standard.
 
@TonyTheLion looks like something I'd say
 
@Ell I pretty much agree with the basic notion (and have said as much a few times before). The problem is that Sun tried that with the HotJava browser years ago, and it failed. It didn't fail because it was a VM, but because the Java VM is such a pig -- but all the other browsers learned the wrong lesson from its failure.
 
Ell
Ahh that's a shame :/
 
7:58 AM
@Ell they do have a VM... it runs Java Script. Most do compile down to some form of byte code, rather then interoperate every line over and over. So what you are saying is, that thing browsers do, they should do it ಠ_ಠ
 
user142019
> Java
 
user142019
@Ell Write a VM in JavaScript that has a JIT-compiler!
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 Erm. I was sleeping at night, and I have no idea what he did, but I assume programming and the occasional snooze. We were in different rooms. Also it was 2 nights. If you think we did things that I think you think we did, then you're very very wrong. I'm not that kind of person. :/
During the day we did the things normal people do when they meet.
 
@thecoshman Javascript is crappy as a source language, and almost worse as an intermediate language. It would be better to use an intermediate language that was intended to be one in the first place.
 
user142019
s/as/aS/
 
8:01 AM
@JerryCoffin it is crappy yes... but sadly the logic seems to be 'all browsers support JS, because all sites use JS, because all browsers supports JS, because all sites use JS...'
@rightfold o_0
 
user142019
It's JavaScript. Not Javascript or Java Script.
 
user142019
You don't say eNgLaN D, so don't say Javascript.
 
@JerryCoffin flash and Silverlight fall in the same conceptual bucket, IYAM
 
@rightfold Given its (lack of) quality, it doesn't deserve two capital letters (and it's open to question whether it even deserves one).
3
 
@rightfold erm. Say: jAvAsCrip T?
@JerryCoffin ... c++ has all the capital letters it deserves
 
8:04 AM
@rightfold ಠ_ಠ you logic is wrong. I do not say "EngLand" so why say "JavaScript" but yes, I know (though care not for) the 'correct' way to capitalise it.
 
@sehe C++ deserves one at least as much as Javascript does.
 
inb4 Batman quote with C++
 
javascript
 
JBL
ITT : capital letters are indicative of language quality (e.g. FORTRAN)
 
user142019
INTERCAL
 
8:07 AM
COBOL
 
user142019
PHP
 
LOLCODE :S
 
BASIC
 
user142019
8:07 AM
ADVANCED
 
JBL
Wild languages appear.
 
XML
:#
 
user142019
HASKELL!!1
 
^ NO!!11one!"1two
 
@JerryCoffin sadly they missed_out(std::all(the_opportunities))
SGML
FTW
 
8:15 AM
WTF
 
Xeo
Ahaha, this might be something for @Cat.
3
 
user142019
> NULL
 
user142019
LOL
 
ʲᵃᵛᵃ
 
@Xeo hahaha
 
Xeo
haha
 
@TonyTheLion Sounds like there was more than one
 
user142019
@Xeo I like the web browser one.
 
@DeadMG I didn't want to say one and then I forgot about some obscure one or something.
 
cpx
8:25 AM
@rightfold: What was your guess on the last one?
 
@thecoshman Funny.
 
@ScottW sup <3
Y U RUN AWAY???
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
 
An idiot like me should never handle so many languages: there is a problem in my objective C code, I go to the Android People room to ask for help, then harass the people on NSChat when there is something wrong with my Android App. Something is not working in my perl script, go and whine in the PHP room.
~facepalm~
 
FML. It took me all day to define a single type trait such that GCC doesn't produce an incorrect result, or crash.
 
8:32 AM
@TonyTheLion :D
 
I generally classify all those things as "magic"
 
number three is more like me :(
 
Heh. This type trait solution was the combination of two codes that independently should have worked all the time. Ugh.
 
Xeo
@Potatoswatter ?
 
@Xeo Just a simple, typical trait: "Does this object have this member function that can be called with this argument?" Turned into a nightmare.
 
8:36 AM
@ScottW yea
 
Xeo
@Potatoswatter ... wtf did you do
 
@Xeo Like Tony said… I have no idea why it was failing or why the solution works.
 
Xeo
Got a link to both?
 
@Xeo You want to see the code?
 
Xeo
Ya
 
user142019
8:39 AM
@cpx Do you really have to ask?
 
user142019
I'm not even going to answer such a terrible question.
 
cpx
@rightfold Was it internet explorer?
 
Xeo
@Potatoswatter y u no coliru?
 
@Xeo It's just a snippet. Here's the whole header on Coliru, still not a program tho. coliru.stacked-crooked.com/…
 
user142019
8:41 AM
@cpx Do you really have to ask?
 
It's pretty gory…
 
user142019
I'm not even going to answer such a terrible question.
 
I am debugging my perl script I ran into this: icewater.cms.udel.edu/IntroPerl
rofl
 
user142019
I mean, NO SHIT! (Pun intended.)
 
@Potatoswatter That's a mild understatement. I'm going to have nightmares for a week. :/
 
cpx
8:42 AM
Hmm.
 
Xeo
@Potatoswatter I assume decltype(void( std::declval< ftor & >() ( std::declval< arg >() ... ) )) was the part that was problematic for GCC?
 
What version of Clang should I get? Is bleeding edge a good idea like with GCC or is something else more stable?
 
cpx
I guess I won't know.
 
Meh - Mondays. I've got home to a bug infestation. I just found one - a massive 'how could that have ever worked' cockup that has been lurking in the code for 15 years :(
 
@Xeo No, what was problematic is that the trait gets evaluated to false when in fact it's true. That's why the false class specialization does a double-check using a function specialization which may still evaluate to true.
It makes no sense.
But if I eliminate the class and use the function to compute the trait all the time, GCC hangs and eats memory forever.
Also makes no sense. It's a miracle any solution exists.
 
Xeo
8:46 AM
Okay, not sure anymore which of the traits you're talking about :s
 
Which brings me to Clang.
@Xeo The one in the pastebin.com/r5dzsTwg
 
Xeo
Ah. That's the working version then?
 
Yes.
Nothing is broken in what I just posted.
 
Xeo
Broken version?
 
@Xeo Uh… either remove the class specialization derived from true_type, or remove the is_passable_fn function and replace it with false, since that's all it should ever evaluate to.
 
8:49 AM
My question is: How do you come up with that stuff?
 
If you want to play with this, I'll clean it up a bit and push to the git repo. code.google.com/p/c-plus
 
Xeo
Okay, there's way too much unknown stuff in that snippet to really look for the problem :/
 
@Xeo Yeah, this is why I don't ask.
 
Xeo
What exactly should "is_passable" supposed to check?
 
@TonyTheLion On a mission to make the prettiest compiler evah.
 
8:50 AM
@Potatoswatter oh I see. :) Sounds fun.
 
@Xeo Given a compiler stage interface and a piece of data, can the data be passed to the stage?
Which is just a simple matter of whether the pass function exists for that data and that stage. But I'm just evaluating it in contexts that GCC apparently finds odd.
 
er, you'd really expect that each compiler stage has a pre-defined interface.
there's little benefit in a generic compiler stage interface.
 
Xeo
With that in mind, the snippet looks fine at a glance.
 
@DeadMG Each stage declares an operator() for the data it handles, and passes-through data it doesn't handle.
 
@Potatoswatter OK, but why would you do that?
you could feasibly template your lexer and parser, but the other stages, there's no way in hell they can be made generic like that.
 
8:53 AM
@DeadMG For example, an error message or configuration change.
 
@Potatoswatter Right, but your compiler API really needs to explicitly handle those things, not just pass stuff through generically.
 
@DeadMG It's handled by whatever stage handles those things. A stage that shunts or prints error messages somewhere probably doesn't handle "real" data.
 
> DON'T ASK TO ASK, JUST ASK
 
that's terrifically unhelpful.
 
that' in HTML room
 
8:55 AM
what are you going to do, template on your configuration object?
 
Configuration in what sense?
 
not to mention the 100% possibility that you will need a more complex interface than a single function.
 
@DeadMG You can stitch whatever objects you want into it, but the dataflow part covers an awful lot.
 
ok, well I think that you don't quite understand the question (whose fault that is to be left undefined)
 
@DeadMG I never asked a question, except which version of Clang should I install, which nobody seems to have noticed.
 
8:58 AM
firstly, how the fuck are you going to pass stuff magically through a functional interface when your interfaces are not functional, and secondly, how the hell are you going to do it when it's not feasible to make each component templated, and thirdly, what even is the benefit of doing this instead of pre-defining the interface to each stage?
@Potatoswatter Oh no, I was asking you a question.
3.3 is the answer to your question, realistically.
 
@DeadMG The "functional" interface is that each component is templated on where its output goes.
 
you know it's completely unfeasible to template quite a few components for a non-toy language, right?
even for Wide, I did what I could but there's no way in hell I could make my analyzer a template.
 
Ell
well maybe he is about to achieve it :3
 
The idea is that the compiler can inline things where otherwise you would need virtual dispatches. I plan on implementing queries about the output, which may be constexpr, enabling dead code elimination.
@DeadMG Why can't you make it a template? Templated on what? The general architecture I have in mind is to instantiate most things exactly twice, once for the most common case and once for the most general case.
 
@Potatoswatter There are two main reasons not to make it a template.
firstly, the thing is fucking huge and takes forever to compile already. Making it a template would involve it taking massively longer to compile than now, and there's a whole bunch of circular dependency problems which would be very difficult to resolve.
and secondly, there's absolutely no point at all, since there is only one useful code generator for me.
 
9:07 AM
@DeadMG One template instantiation compiles about as fast as one non-template function. If you would have a circular template dependency, break it with a std::function based output type. (The framework helps with this.)
 
@Potatoswatter Pity that something as complex as a code generator actually has a lot more than one useful function that I need to access.
 
Good morning lounge
 
and also
you can't have a std::function that can perfectly pass-through, you have to fix it's signature beforehand.
even if I were to re-tune the analyzer to accept an interface to LLVM (and, implicitly, Clang, even though there are no other possible implementations), it still couldn't support the kind of pass-through that you're talking about.
 
@Potatoswatter [citation needed]? (not that I disbelieve you, but I'm curious whether we have any actual data on this, or are just hoping/assuming)
 
@DeadMG That just sounds willfully stupid. Assuming you're talking about LLVM, you didn't write it so you don't get to template it. And N template instantiations take as long to compile as N non-template functions. Or often less.
 
9:09 AM
@Potatoswatter No, I meant, I have a code generator class on top of LLVM. I didn't mean LLVM itself.
 
@jalf Templates are slow because they give you the power to generate tons of fucntions. If you instantiate something once, that's not slow yet.
 
@Potatoswatter ok, I'm less certain on that one. Again, [citation needed]?
@Potatoswatter ... so you don't have any actual data on it?
 
@Potatoswatter Depends on how much extra stuff you have to #include and re-process, where a non-template could be incrementally rebuilt.
 
(protip: I am aware of what templates are and what they are for. I am asking if anyone has actually measured the impact on compilation speed in these cases)
 
@jalf No, but look up "diet templates" for an article by Meyers or Sutter or someone like that.
 
Xeo
9:11 AM
I'd actually assume one instantiation to already be slower than a pre-written non-template function
 
@Xeo For Wide, they are the same, at least right now. But I heavily suspect that for C++, there is a big difference.
 
@Xeo I'd certainly expect N template instantiations to be slower than N non-template functions. But for N==1, the difference could well be too small to matter
 
@TonyTheLion dat title, dat link
 
@Xeo Compiling and instantiating exactly once may be slower because there are more tokens to process, that's true. But in my case, I have two instantiations of most templates. And I get the benefit of the framework putting together many small pieces.
 
Maybe I should try to do some benchmarking on this some time. Might be fun
 
9:12 AM
@jalf The main issue is when the template is very large, you have to re-include a lot of headers and re-instantiate a lot of functions that could otherwise be incrementally rebuilt.
 
@jalf Subsequent instantiations of the same template are fast because all the AST that isn't dependent on a template parameter gets reused.
 
and the other issue is that for very complex components, it's more than a tad difficult to sort out the circular dependencies
 
@Potatoswatter So what you are saying is "to answer your question, no, I have zero data on this, I am just assuming the following to be true"
Thank you
 
@DeadMG Not sure what you're talking about with circular dependencies. Do you mean co-recursion?
 
core-excursion? :o
 
9:14 AM
@Potatoswatter Yes, amongst other things.
 
@Xeo I did measure once (though not recently). At that time/with those compilers, instantiating a template was slower than compiling a non-template definition of an otherwise similar function. The difference wasn't huge though -- something like 30-100% slower, mostly depending on number of parameters (though it would probably get slower still with more parameters than I bothered to test).
 
is that like in Journey to the Center of the Earth? :)
 
but
that's more of a hurdle
IMO, the real problem is that you plain don't need it.
for the simpler components like lexer and parser, sure, there are other useful instantiations of them. I did this to write my Visual Studio extension.
but when it comes to analyzer and code generator, there's really not.
 
@JerryCoffin ooh, interesting.
 
@DeadMG Um, thank you for your expert opinion…
Guess I'll just quit this project now, what a shame.
 
9:17 AM
@jalf It'd probably be a lot more interesting if it was at least semi-current. The testing I did was (going from memory) around 2004 or 2005, so it's probably pretty thoroughly obsolete by now.
 
@JerryCoffin old data is still better than no data :)
 
@Potatoswatter If you think differently, then feel free to share your ideas
@JerryCoffin Especially as that was pre-Clang.
 
I remember seeing a benchmark showing that repeatedly making the same instantiation of a template only incurred the instantiation cost once, but beyond that, I haven't really seen much data on this
 
@DeadMG Yes, definitely pre-Clang.
 
@jalf Here's the presentation I mentioned: accu.org/content/conf2011/Jonathan-Wakely-diet-templates.pdf (From 2011)
 
9:19 AM
@DeadMG interestingly enough, we've started experimentally building with Clang, and have found that while on the whole it is ridiculously fast, it is actually slower in template-heavy code
 
@jalf That's nonsense. You can't make the same instantiation twice, except in different TU's, which will most likely have 2x the cost.
 
@jalf It would be extremely infeasible for the compiler to not cache instantiations.
 
@Potatoswatter create two objects of type vector<int>. Now, does the compiler do all the "figure out how to instantiate the vector template for int once or twice
 
@jalf That's one instantiation, made once.
A name which isn't explicitly specialized refers to an instantiation. Using the name twice doesn't refer to two different things.
 
@Potatoswatter Oh goody. So to summary: I ask if anyone has actual data on how much slower compilation gets with/without templates. I get an answer saying that "obviously it is no slower, and here's a presentation to support it". And then a link to a presentation talking about the size of the generated code
I feel enlightened
 
9:23 AM
Me lately
 
@Potatoswatter Thank you. May I refer you to my earlier statement that I know what a template is? I know that vector<int> is the same type as vector<int>.
 
5 mins ago, by jalf
I remember seeing a benchmark showing that repeatedly making the same instantiation of a template only incurred the instantiation cost once, but beyond that, I haven't really seen much data on this
 
Ell
@Borgleader me always >.<
 
But there is no guarantee in the C++ spec that the compiler shall only do the work of instantiating the template once
@Potatoswatter so, what you're saying now is "the benchmark you saw is invalid because its result is obvious"?
You have a strange approach to the words "data" and "measurements"/"benchmarks"
 
@jalf I have a little objection to the verbiage making the same instantiation twice.
@jalf The compiler could re-compile each function every time it's called, but in the end all those functions need to have the same address.
C++ is a bit stupid with TUs but that problem is going away slowly over time.
 
9:27 AM
@Potatoswatter CAPTAIN OBVIOUS IS HERE TO SAVE US!
Thank you, but for the third time, I am aware of the fundamentals of the C++ language
but this does not answer the question of how much work the compiler does when encountering certain code constructs
 
@jalf I'm not sure what you're on about. Then why do you see that as a significant experiment? Yes it's hard data, but yes it's a bit pointless.
 
@jalf I thought he'd been here a long time ago already? :P
 
@jalf When the compiler encounters a template parameter, it generates a placeholder, which stops it from performing name lookup and such. When the template is instantiated, it goes over all those placeholders and performs the deferred lookups. But that's not "hard data" so you're not interested?
Anyhoo.
 
@Potatoswatter So did you get anywhere, besides into an argument?
 
@Potatoswatter Did I say "significant"? I said that it was the only data I had seen
 
9:32 AM
@TonyTheLion As for today's work, yeah, problem solved before I came to chat to blow off steam :)
 
@Potatoswatter oh good.
 
@Potatoswatter Exactly, it is not hard data, so I'm not interested. Because the details still depend on the compiler implementation, and I was curious about actual real-world data
Thanks though. :)
 
@jalf Well enough, but you need to account for generic benchmark issues. The only way to find the impact on a real-world scenario is to test on that particular scenario.
 
@Potatoswatter yup. And as with all benchmarks, doing that reliably is a PITA. Hence why I was wondering if anyone had seen such benchmarks already :)
I'm not concerned about any specific real-world scenario though, just whether any general observations can be made about how much of a slowdown is incurred by templating a function, by specializing it for 1, 2, N different types etc
would be fun to see such data, because let's be honest, we tend to gloss over the compilation time impact of templates. :)
 
cpx
@jalf: Interesting rep score, 123k
 
9:40 AM
Eh… FWIW, this templated-up-the-wazoo preprocessor takes about 30sec to compile, but if I accidentally introduce another high-level instantiation, time goes up proportionally to the generated code size.
 
@cpx hmm, I just need 424 more rep then
 
Ugh. How do I install Clang from the binaries?
The .tgz archive just has a /lib, /bin, etc but there's no install script and no README.
The obvious thing to do is copy the files, but there seem to be many extra files I don't actually want to copy.
 
@Potatoswatter just add the /bin dir to your path?
 
@jalf I don't want to clutter my path? Anyway that doesn't sound like the right approach…
 
@ScottW ohhh, you're working hard at keeping fit it seems.
lol
but you run
a wild polar bear appears
 
9:53 AM
@Potatoswatter symlink the relevant binaries into an existing /bin directory then?
 
hasta la pasta vista ME polarity
 
dat pun
 
@jalf Oh man, I did that once with a compiler and spent a while cleaning up the mess.
 
had 2 egg tarts before taking the train
 
So what do you think an install script would do? :p
which OS, btw?
 

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