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2:00 PM
@EiyrioüvonKauyf That's a bonus
 
@MartinJames look at the newbie thread
 
ahaha robot winning the twitter
 
@MartinJames It's like PICNIC
@BartekBanachewicz ?
 
@Cunobaros "(low level C/C++) devs" or "low level (C/C++ devs)"?
 
Oh, I thought there was a prize involved.
 
2:02 PM
@BartekBanachewicz operator precedence
low level binds tighter to C than C++, so it must be ((low level C)/C++) devs
 
> The developers of ReactOS are trying to reimplement DirectX under the name "ReactX".
poor fuckers.
 
user784668
> The developers of ReactOS
 
user784668
poor fuckers
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz FTFY
 
true
Wow, I found a nice quote
> Direct-3D IM is a horribly broken API. It inflicts great pain and suffering on the programmers using it, without returning any significant advantages. I don't think there is ANY market segment that D3D is apropriate for, OpenGL seems to work just fine for everything from quake to softimage. There is no good technical reason for the existance of D3D.
 
2:08 PM
typo sic
 
@BartekBanachewicz That is the dumbest thing I've read in a while
 
user142019
@sehe formatting fail.
 
@jalf guess who wrote it.
 
user142019
@BartekBanachewicz You?
 
@BartekBanachewicz no clue?
 
2:09 PM
John Carmack.
 
when?
 
user784668
Both low-level 3D APIs suck badly.
 
@rightfold wut. the tweet or the chat message?
 
and in which context?
 
@jalf in 96
 
2:09 PM
oh. Fair enough then
 
@BartekBanachewicz A baseless rant is a nice quote?
 
user142019
@sehe chat message.
 
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes Bartek's a D3D hater
 
Of course, anything you say about DirectX anno 1996 is pretty much garbage in 2013
 
user142019
2:10 PM
You're formatting text that isn't code as code.
 
So yeah, "nice quote" indeed
 
@jalf true.
 
user142019
DirectGL
 
@jalf It's nice only because of peculiar rant, as @R.MartinhoFernandes pointed out
 
user784668
@rightfold sucks
 
2:11 PM
This is super cool. "I started to learn python..." http://ow.ly/nehY7
 
user784668
@rightfold and so does OpenX
 
@rightfold I don't see it
 
What's peculiar about it though? I thought everyone agreed that D3D back then was a horrific API
 
user142019
<div class="content"><code>low level</code> binds tighter to <code>C</code> than <code>C++</code>, so it must be <code>((low level C)/C++) devs</code></div>
 
@jalf next sentence
> I'm sure D3D will suck less with each forthcoming version, but this is an oportunity to just bypass dragging the entire development community through the messy evolution of an ill-birthed API.
 
user142019
2:11 PM
> <code>
 
disclaimer: I didn't read the rest of the page
 
Python is a silly language
 
and this stays true even in 2013.
 
user142019
Uh no.
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's not like OpenGL had a nice birth or non-messy evolution.
 
user142019
2:12 PM
Python is a great language.
 
@BartekBanachewicz uh...
 
user142019
It's just that installing Python libraries is cumbersome and terrible.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Ask Carmack if he agrees with that one
 
every language has its own purpose
 
@rightfold /care
 
2:13 PM
/care? like !care?
 
Wasn't D3D known for having a cleaner API than OpenGL or am I completely wrong about that?
 
user784668
@Crowz glBindTexture
 
> 'I actually think that Direct3D is a rather better API today.' He also added that 'Microsoft had the courage to continue making significant incompatible changes to improve the API, while OpenGL has been held back by compatibility concerns. Direct3D handles multi-threading better, and newer versions manage state better.' (Dated 2011)
 
@rightfold why?
 
ITT @BartekBanachewicz discovers that he has to go 17 years back in order to find anything to support his irrational fanboyish hatred of D3D
10
 
user784668
2:13 PM
Oh well.
 
@Crowz It's all about beholders.
 
user784668
It's not hard to have cleaner API than OpenGL.
 
@rightfold using what; and from source?
 
user142019
@EiyrioüvonKauyf Global installation = go away.
 
2:14 PM
@Fanael i'm not a fan of it; but it works;..... having a state machine feels weidr
 
user142019
You need to use virtualenv.
 
@rightfold no one is asking you to
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ok then
 
virtualenv is awesome
 
@rightfold no you don't ; build in place
 
user142019
2:14 PM
And even then, you must not forget to source it. :V
 
@rightfold build it in place
 
@BartekBanachewicz Right... So he doesn't agree with you. And that somehow vindicates your ridiculous hatred towards D3D?
 
@rightfold or build an egg and stop being stupid
 
@rightfold Gentoo's awesome.
 
and making large generalizations
 
2:14 PM
@jalf Please show me when, starting on the first quote, I've shown hatred.
 
user142019
npm, Rebar and Mix are good at dependencies.
 
@jalf Nah. He went back two years to discover that his hero gave him permission to stop blindly hating the enemy product
 
user142019
Everything else I've used has been shit.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not starting with your first quote, I'm starting with all the garbage you've thrown at us about D3D
And I really honestly truly cannot say that "hatred" is too strong a word to describe your attitude towards it
 
uhoh. popcorn or run...
 
2:16 PM
there's a reason python is atm ridiculously popular
 
@sehe I'll undoubtfully pick the latter.
 
mit and berkeley have professors and phd groups deving programs in it
>> ease of use is a major one
 
run it is. Peeps, clean up the mess? I'm fleeing
 
user142019
@EiyrioüvonKauyf So?
 
sigh nvm; use what you like
 
2:17 PM
@jalf has become so prejudiced to my "hatred" of D3D as I am to D3D myself, which makes any discussion pretty much impossible.
 
user142019
Python is a great language.
 
Carmack 2011: "I think D3D is a nice API". Carmack 1996: "D3D is terrible". @BartekBanachewicz: "Look, Carmack agrees with me that D3D sucks"
@BartekBanachewicz "prejudiced"?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Why would I? We made the decision early on to only target Windows. And anyway, there's always Mono.
 
@jalf When did i say the last sentence?
@EtiennedeMartel so it requires full C# runtime to run?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes.
 
2:19 PM
OMG IT REQUIRES SOME SORT OF RUNTIME! RUN FOR THE HILLS.
 
@EtiennedeMartel hm, and does C# actually run in its own process? How is it sandboxed?
 
@BartekBanachewicz We host the CLR using Microsoft'S API.
 
no; runtimes are bad; as in scary; i'll be in the mountains of switzerland if you need me
 
So it runs in the same process, but the managed stuff has its own heap.
 
@EtiennedeMartel so a crash of code in CLR doesn't affect the main native code?
 
2:20 PM
The CLR is the sandbox.
 
@BartekBanachewicz The CLR doesn't crash. It just throws an exception that you can catch.
 
@BartekBanachewicz You said that it was a "nice quote", and you said that his rant about hypothetical future versions is still true in 2013. I think it is reasonable, based on this, to assume that your point was effectively that "Carmack agrees with me that D3D sucks"
 
@EtiennedeMartel OK.
 
C# doesn't "crash" without unsafe code.
 
If you meant something completely different and I just missed your point, then I apologize
 
2:21 PM
(Of course, modulo bugs)
 
(and in that case, do elaborate)
 
@jalf your logic (or definition of "reasonable", perhaps) is so flawed it's not even funny.
 
Errors in .NET are always recoverable.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I could say the same, but I'm interested in what you actually meant then
 
@BartekBanachewicz It also has the added benefit that we can write our interop code with C++/CLI.
 
2:21 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Depends on your definition of "crash".
 
@jalf I just found that article, and figured it's funny how carmack ranted in 1996 in a way that's very similar to mine. But if you really think that I would use an argument from 1996 for DX11, I have to feel offended.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes sure it does ... just need absurd programming logic ... chuck in a few window phone 8 components, mixing a bit xaml ... it will crash faster than a koi fish
 
@BartekBanachewicz So what else was the "it is still true in 2013" line supposed to mean?
unless you meant "the 1996 version of D3D is still terrible in 2013", which, well duh
 
@jalf That the API got a lot better (which proved his point), and that it's irrelevant, because we could do well without it anyway (which is my opinion).
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 Yeah, no.
 
2:24 PM
I am not sure how I feel about the competition and its impact on developmenton on both APIs, though. I have mixed feelings.
 
yay. Got my program that was originally 150 lines down to 75 lines, not sure if that's a sign that I'm good or terrible
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 Oh, thanks for that one :((
 
@BartekBanachewicz and how does the second part (your opinion is that we could well do without it, as was said in 1996) differ from "using an argument from 1996 for DX11"
 
@JerryCoffin In this case, I am using the definition that doesn't make the discussion nonsensical: something that irrevocably ruins the process.
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 ... do koi fish usually crash?
 
user784668
2:25 PM
lol
 
user784668
Dec 15 '12 at 14:40, by Bartek Banachewicz
@jalf Whoever is using DirectX is condemned and it's his own fault anyway
 
> Never use smart_ptr. Change it to std::unique_ptr or std::shared_ptr instead.
 
@MartinJames you're welcome, I hope that made your day >_<
 
@jalf because DirectX11 existence and improvement (even surpassing GL) didn't make OpenGL irrelevant; quite the contrary, OpenGL dominated the mobile and web markets.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes why; also what boost.org/doc/libs/1_54_0/libs/smart_ptr/smart_ptr.htm there are no smart_ptr; that's c++11 iirc
 
2:26 PM
@EiyrioüvonKauyf have you ever tried to catch a koi fish? ... they are damn fast (and slippery)
 
For that matter, why did you feel the similarity between his quote and your own sentiments were interesting, given that they apply to completely different versions of the API, and have nothing else in common that the name of the API they reference?
 
oh god guys. the for loops. THE FOR LOOPS. So many of them
 
@jalf Merely because of the amount of anger put into them.
 
right
 
I think I can... understand what he was thinking back then.
It can be an unrealistic and idealistic point of view, but at least Carmack from 96 and me today have some thoughts in common (or I like to think so).
 
user784668
2:28 PM
Any POSIX gurus around?
 
@Crowz I heard that many years ago ... from another newb, exactly the same complain ...
 
@BartekBanachewicz Everyone who has tried working with the '96 version of D3D has some thoughts in common (that the API was horrible).
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Well, my point was that (just for example) when writing assembly language under DOS, "crash" often just meant "went into an infinite loop that ignored user input", and it's pretty easy to do pretty much the same in almost anything (certainly including C#). The big difference is that we now run code under OSes that don't allow user code to do things like disabling interrupts first, so even if they "crash", it's pretty easy to kill them and restart.
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 I wrote the program but it's just a huge series of for loops and dictionaries, and lists
 
2:29 PM
But that has effectively nothing in common with your dislike of D3D today
 
Oh, not necessarily. The quality is one thing, the philosophy behind them is the other.
 
But hey, if the thought never occurred to you that "Carmack said something that agrees with me. That's great, he's a respected person, and thus it helps support/validate my opinion" then I owe you an apology
 
a) appeal to authority b) 1996.
 
Yes, and yes
 
We're not discussing since today, @jalf :)
 
2:31 PM
It's certainly also possible for code in C# to overwrite valuable data with complete garbage. Probably not the same sort of "complete garbage" as we saw under MS-DOS, but the minor detail that the garbage data was all carefully initialized does little or nothing to preserve the data that got overwritten.
 
also Carmack writes in C :v
 
But the alternative is to assume that you posted the quote because it was funny that he and you both disliked DirectX2.0. Or that you found it funnny that he disliked DX2.0 and you dislike DX11, which is silly
@BartekBanachewicz He wrote in C. He writes in C++
 
user784668
Oh well.
 
user784668
I can't WaitForMultipleObjects on pipes.
 
@Fanael You can't? I'm pretty sure that should work fine
 
2:33 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes : write a useful window 8 phone app in C# .net, you will crawl back and tell me how right I was
 
gerh...
 
Ugh, I thought of James Kanze as someone that would read more than one paragraph before pointing out flaws in my answer.
 
user784668
> The WaitForMultipleObjects function can specify handles of any of the following object types in the lpHandles array:
 
@jalf I have to admit that the quality of DirectX API has improved severely, and right now OpenGL is left behind. Hopefully that will improve in 5.0. That being said, the fact that Dx is closed and owned by one company still remains as relevant as in 96. And oh, right now more and more devs trying out OpenGL (like Valve, for one) are mumbling about speed increases. That of course would require more benchmarks and tests, however these notions are certainly interesting.
 
user784668
2:34 PM
Note that "Pipe" is not mentioned there.
 
trying to get a better design to be implemented is so hard when the one that came first is right be default.
 
@Fanael Well, it's Windows, so workaround it. How many pipes do you need to wait on? Why can you not use a separate thread per pipe?
 
@BartekBanachewicz interesting, sure, but note that they also posted significant performance improvements by taking their OpenGL-optimized version and then backporting it to D3D. Which suggests that it was less to do with the API and more just optimizing their graphics pipeline. And true about the openness. But none of that was what Carmack complained about
 
@jalf I think he mentioned the fact that MS owns the API.
 
today I learned about :e in vim. I feel like a noob
 
2:37 PM
And it's not just a FUD that MS can do evil things with it
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz Gallium3D guys want to implement a D3D state tracker, where's your "closed and owned by one company" now? That's more like "nobody bothered to implement this interface on other platforms, possibly because patents, which may be void in places like Europe, but Murica still matters".
 
@BartekBanachewicz Perhaps. Not in the bit you quoted though. :)
 
> Microsoft initiated a fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD) campaign against OpenGL around the release of Windows VistaThen in 2005, they gave presentations at SIGGRAPH (special interest group for graphics) and WinHEC (Windows Hardware Engineering Conference) giving the impression that Windows Vista would remove support for OpenGL except to maintain back-compatibility with XP applications.
> This version of OpenGL would be layered on top of DirectX (...) causing a dramatic performance hit. This campaign led to panic in the OpenGL community, leading many professional graphics programmers to switch to DirectX.
 
OMG you truly are clouded.
 
2:38 PM
@BartekBanachewicz "evil things"? Worst case scenario, they make the API less attractive and people switch to OpenGL
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes clouded?
 
That's just evil marketing, and it would work just as well if DX was "open", whatever the hell that means here.
 
@BartekBanachewicz uh-uh? You realize that is about Microsoft's treatment of OpenGL, and not about what they do with D3D, yes?
 
user784668
@MartinJames lots of pipes, and thus threads are a bad idea.
 
Hire a plumber or a seamstress.
 
2:40 PM
@Fanael What, like hundreds?
 
user784668
I guess I should learn how to use I/O completion ports.
 
user784668
@MartinJames that's a possibility, yes
 
@jalf The competition between GL and Dx led to improvement of both. If MS forces (in this kind of way) Dx only, it will lose the competitor.
 
@Fanael Well sure, if IOCP will work on pipes, yes.
 
I kinda feel bad with how I really wanted to wipe Dx from the planet with the sentence above.
 
2:41 PM
@Fanael If you want asynchronous I/O on pipes, specify FILE_FLAG_OVERLAPPED, and wait on the event you pass (just like asynch I/O to/from files and such). Although you can wait on a file handle, you almost always want to wait on the event handle with them too.
 
@Fanael Hang on a second, you certainly can wait on pipes. I can't remember the details, but you might have to create an Event object to wait on
which, again, is tied to the pipe
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, and again, that has nothing to do with any hypothetical flaws of D3D
 
user784668
@jalf you mean what Jerry said?
 
@jalf WFMO will only wait on 64 handles anyway, so @Fanael can't really use it anyway for 100's of pipes.
 
So your argument basically is "D3D is a terrible API because Microsoft could hypothetically one day choose not to support OpenGL on their OS". I am pretty sure that makes zero sense.
@Fanael yep
 
@BartekBanachewicz Clouded reasoning. You keep drawing relations where they don't exist, as long as they support your general vague idea that OpenGL => good, DirectX => bad.
 
2:43 PM
To establish D3D as a terrible library you have to show terrible things about the library, and not about things the owners of the library could one day choose to do outside the library
 
user784668
So a it'll be a mess.
 
Eh, I found an even better quote
> Dudes, it's just an API. It's not like one of them insulted your sister.
 
.... euh you guys are giving me a headache @BartekBanachewicz @jalf
time to go get coffee or sleep
 
@BartekBanachewicz Have you considered how that might apply to yourself?
I agree with that one though
 
@jalf of course.
 
user784668
2:44 PM
IOCP code for Windows, incompatible IOCP code for Solaris, yet another incompatible IOCP code for AIX, epoll or something for Linux, kqueue for BSDs…
 
> I can't think of many things quite so futile as a programmer wasting their energy defending one 'superior' API or another against all comers like they're in some kind of tribe. Nothing is perfect, as coders we have to work with imperfect systems and APIs and make the best of them in as many situations as we can; blinkering yourself with fanatical allegiances only impedes that process.
here's the latter part ^
 
@Fanael Asio?
 
@Fanael asynch I/O nearly always is.
 
user784668
And some poll fallback for generic POSIX.
 
I now feel really bad about myself after reading this
 
2:45 PM
@BartekBanachewicz awwww... need a hug? :)
It is easy to get invested in stuff like this though. Hence all the language wars and OS wars and console wars and API wars and whatnot
 
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, thought about it too.
 
Guys I don't like isolated bugs
 
Dunno about Solaris, AIX or BSD, but I know that it uses IOCP on Windows.
 
user784668
If asio works, good. If it doesn't, then fuck everything I have to implement it itself.
 
@Fanael why do you need to support this many OS'es anyway? (sorry if you already explained that)
 
2:47 PM
@jalf And learning both is really not an option :F Simply TMI
 
@BartekBanachewicz yup, that as well
 
.. you guys are confusing
 
@Crowz really ... like you like related bugs?
 
Well, if you only want to get stuff done, maybe it is. But I like to dig in.
 
Added the mandatory `unsafe` variation for good measure. — sehe 28 secs ago
 
2:47 PM
@EiyrioüvonKauyf Thank you. We do try our best
 
@EiyrioüvonKauyf why?
 
user784668
@jalf Support for Solaris and AIX is purely hypothetical, but I certainly want to support BSDs, Linux and Windows.
 
@Fanael but again, why?
(aka: what are you making)
 
> i prefer to support dinosaurs <3
 
safeness is usually traded with speed - assume the code was done by a decent programmer
 
2:48 PM
@Fanael I don't see why Asio wouldn't work
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 ofc; otherwise we would just play with pointers
 
I am talking about locking/synchronization, range checking etc
 
ITT pointers equal speed.
 
Of course. And more pointers equal more speed
 
int******************* f1_race_car;
4
 
2:49 PM
@sehe What was this supposed to be? An attempt at convincing us that C# is still just as awful as Java? :-)
2
 
C# is slower than java in general
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 Is my troll-o-meter broken?
Or are you serious?
 
Ell
Hi guys
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 Except when it's faster.
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 I can think of some very simple and common cases where that's not true (mostly involving generics)
 
2:51 PM
haha, generics.
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 And in any case, why do you compare a language to a platform?
 
also, does it matter? Both languages are fast enough for most things, too slow for some things
@EtiennedeMartel Java is a platform?
 
@jalf Since when is a language slow?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Since today!
 
@jalf Not my fault they use the same word for many things.
 
2:52 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Your fault for failing to disambiguate which such obvious context.
 
Ell
^
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Your fault for not getting the joke.
 
user784668
@jalf something like acovea, but with multiprocessing
 
I should now say that Ruby is slow and flee.
 
2:53 PM
your fault for not expecting infinite pedantry here, because that seems to be the big thing today, even more than usual :)
 
@JerryCoffin :0 It's written explicitely in the answer: it's supposed to be fun ... :/
 
Look, graphs.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I think (as most people use them) both C# and Java refer to both languages and platforms.
 
Xeo
... what the hell Flash
Rendering a single textfield takes 150ms
 
2:53 PM
@JerryCoffin I usually use .NET for the platform that most people use C# with.
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 I conclude that the author has terrible taste in colours.
 
@JerryCoffin Also, your comparison to Java makes.... zero sense, especially with this particular example
 
@sehe You have a strange idea of fun.
 
user784668
Fuck Java.
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 What if you run the C# version though ngen? :)
 
2:54 PM
Mmm. Nah. He's not new here. Strange.
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 thanks to you we can now all read the terrible results these pseudo benchmarks produced
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 Right, because I regularly implement mathematical algorithms in real life day-to-day programming work.
 
@jalf It would be unfair to Java?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's not like we know how to be fair to Java anyway.
 
user784668
@jalf isn't ngen an AOT that does more or less what the runtime would do anyway?
 
2:55 PM
@Xeo Flash's Textfield is exceptionally bad. =[
 
Xeo
This is so stupid.
 
It does do a lot of fun things, but when you try to whip it it breaks down pretty fast.
 
@Fanael No, it's the static compiler which goes "fuck this, I'm gonna generate native code and spend time on optimizations"
 
@Xeo aha amazing piece of technology
 
Xeo
When the game is in idle, with a constantly updating textfield, it takes ~1ms (in interpreter mode)
 
2:55 PM
@BartekBanachewicz yes, they have to be tested using certain dummy benchmarks
 
reminds me of SFML 1.5
 
@EtiennedeMartel My point is that virtually nobody really even thinks of C# in isolation from (or a close facsimile thereof, such as Mono).
 
Xeo
If I scroll around, it suddenly takes 150ms :|
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 who said that?
 
@jalf It also tends to not generate big improvements.
 
2:56 PM
@EtiennedeMartel but that's usually the most CPU intensive tasks
 
@sehe I compared it only in terms of being awful.
 
Ell
.Net is what makes c# attractive
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Depends on the code. In most performance comparisons between C# and other languages I've seen, it has made a significant difference
 
@jalf native code is nice
:3
 
@BartekBanachewicz you have a better idea?
 
2:56 PM
Not that it matters because does anyone in this room really care whether C# or Java is faster?
 
user784668
C# is faster, because Java sucks.
 
You didn't even upvote that answer
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
 
@jalf For what is worth, you can compile Java ahead-of-time as well, so such a comparison would just be statistics lies.
 
anyway @Fanael, what are you working on that needs support for so many platforms? I'm curious :)
 
user784668
@jalf scroll up
 
2:57 PM
@Telkitty猫咪咪 But nobody gives a shit about those.
 
@JerryCoffin Oh. Aha. Then of course you must be right. I'll try to remember that next time when I accidentally have fun doing stuff in C# that java couldn't possibly.
 
Ell
meh.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes then you should do that with both, and compare the result. Otherwise it's as silly as benchmarking without optimizatinos enabled
 
Benchmarks are like opnion polls: their results alway closely follows their authors' expectations and biases.
 
@sehe which one?
 
2:58 PM
@Telkitty猫咪咪 of course. Run an actual application that matters for you when choosing. Or a PoC that simulates your particular usage.
 
@Fanael ah, interesting
 
@jalf It does save a lot on startup and first-JIT time, so I guess it's easy to get big differences in benchmarks that don't account for such things. And as always whether including that in the results is relevant or not depends on the use case.
 
@sehe As well you should! Having fun in any but the prescribed fashion is clearly prohibited!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It depends on what the benchmark's author wants you to believe, actually.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it also performs some much more aggressive optimizations (and for some reason, the .NET JIT doesn't really bother much with optimization)
 

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