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1:00 PM
the "I don't want to pay for it" argument is basically saying, "oh, it's ok that I steal something (taking without giving something in return), so I'll go do that and blame the movie industry for the fact that I just stole something" Seems easy enough.
walk in to a store someday and try your argument
oh I don't want to pay for this toothpaste, I'll just take it and blame the store
 
@DeadMG but why is it ok to just take a copy? If people just accepted a fate of either 'pay' or 'do not have' then people would pay what they can, if companies need to, they will reduce to charge. Sure not every one will be able to afford it, but tough luck
 
or the manufacturer
 
Hmm, I don't think that it ever makes sense to compare physical products to files
 
getting what a film or play a game is not a right
 
it's still a product, produced by someone
people put their time and effort into making it
 
1:01 PM
there's a very big difference between taking a physical object and creating a digital copy.
 
I agree
 
toothpaste or movie
 
and yes, I understand the notion that you are just making a copy of it, thus there is not tangible loss
 
if you take a toothpaste tube, then you deny the shopkeeper the revenue of selling that toothpaste to an actual customer.
 
But taking a physical object doesn't leave a perfectly functional copy in it's place
 
1:02 PM
the same is not true of copying a film.
 
you say that
 
I've tried to argue this here before, I got no where
 
yea, seems to be getting no where.
 
@thecoshman Right, but why should people accept that fate when it's not necessary?
 
Ell
I agree with Tony here
 
1:03 PM
the fact you have not physically taken something does not change the fact you are still stealing
 
Ell
exactly
 
@thecoshman I'm all for recognizing virtual property as just as owned as physical property.
however, in my opinion, theft must definitely deprive the original owner of something, which a copy does not.
 
@thecoshman I'm not disputing that, but it does change the fact and makes such a theft incomparable to a physical theft
 
You know that film studios get most money from licensing, not customer purchases, right?
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus it doesn't matter where they get most money from, stealing is stealing IMHO
 
1:04 PM
@DeadMG deprives them of income they should get for all the hours of work they put in making it.
 
@Ell that's a tautology...
 
Wow. Windows 8 has touch support written in to the API
 
Besides, I wouldn't mind if the whole industry crashed and burned.
 
@thecoshman However, it is a fact that downloading pirated movies is not illegal (at least here in Belgium), while stealing physical items is.
 
1:05 PM
@KianMayne Wow? Windows has had touch support written into the API for the last decade or soemthing
 
How about this argument: Piracy isn't the exact same as stealing. It's still immoral/unethical, because you're consuming something you have not paid for.
 
Windows 8 has more APIs for touch support, sure
 
@TonyTheLion What income does it deprive them from? If someone wasn't willing to pay for the product anyway
 
@TonyTheLion Not really. I pre-supposed someone like myself, who would not pay regardless of torrenting. There's no reason to assume that they should get paid just because they made something.
 
It's evil.
Good thing we like to be evil.
 
1:06 PM
people get paid because they make something other people want to pay for. If you don't make something other people want to pay for, then you don't get paid.
2
@SamDeHaan I disagree. The burden of proof should definitely be the other way around- you should have to prove that your consumption has negative effects.
 
@KianMayne the income of you paying to see them movie (whether online or via a DVD). Don't give me this bullshit that making a digital copy is not stealing, because it is. You're taking something which is not yours, which people put their effort into making, and which they expect a return for. If this theory that digital copies is not stealing goes any further then soon all software developer will be out of a job, because no one will want to pay for any more software, cause why would they...
can make a digital copy and blame the software house for the fact you didn't pay for it
 
considering all of the restriction of freedom, and public expense that goes into attempting to prevent copyright infringement, some ambiguous moral something is not enough.
 
@TonyTheLion But it's not stealing. Legally, it's not stealing. It doesn't follow the definition of theft. That doesn't make it legal, ethical or "not wrong". It just means it's not theft
 
@TonyTheLion Cause if the developers can't eat, they can't continue to develop that software.
 
@TonyTheLion I already said that I don't disagree that it's stealing. I just don't think that deprives them of income if you weren't going to pay for it anyway
 
1:08 PM
if you're Business Y and you depend on Software X, it's in your own interests to keep paying that developer.
because if they go under, you are fucked.
and the truth is
I believe that crowdsourced/pay what you want models will come to dominate transactions for digital media
 
@jalf Yeah - what I meant was this
> The Direct Manipulation APIs are used to process touch input on a region or object, generate output to be used by a composition engine for applying transforms to the related rendering surface, and optimize response and reduce latency through predictive output based on the rendering time of the compositor.
 
because the old models simply don't make sense anymore
 
anyways, I understand where you guys are coming from, but I don't agree with it. Fine we have a disagreement, but I don't think this debate is going anywhere, so let's just say we agree to disagree.
 
@KianMayne Who determines if you "were going to pay for it anyway" though? You can't be sure of that. You're talking about a hypothetical situation
And, of course, if it's not worth paying the asking price for it, why the hell do you use it?
 
Ell
everyone say your favourite build system on.... 3, 2, 1
 
1:11 PM
@Ell Does not compute...
I assume you meant "the least crappy"
 
favourite? More like "Least abominable"
 
@jalf That's a fair point. One example of 'not going to pay for it' is if you can't afford it
 
Ell
yeah, that :)
 
@KianMayne And that, too, is not straightforward. Unless we're talking about buying a house, or something, then "cannot afford" is generally meaningless. The things people pirate could be afforded, if they prioritized differently. "I could afford it, if I'd bought fewer games on Steam in the last month"
or "I coudl afford it if I hadn't gone to those three concerts"
you choose what you can afford
 
Unless you're severely deprived, but I guess, in that situation you wouldn't be able to afford anything to play it on
 
1:14 PM
sure, I'm talking about the common case for you and me
 
So yes, I agree with you
 
Ell
meh I'll go with cmake
 
Honestly, I'm generally on your side on the piracy thing, but the particular argument that "I wouldn't have paid for it anyway" rubs me the wrong way.
@Ell That's the least crappy cross-platform build system I know of. So sounds sensible
 
Ell
anyway I'm off
bye guys :)
 
hf
 
1:21 PM
@StackedCrooked And here lies the biggest problem, it is very hard to steal something (physically) in country in which are not, thus it is very clear that you fall under local laws. However, digitally it is hard to set such borders. Do you fall under the laws of the server you are downloading from or to? what about if you are remotely initiating the download from a third country. And I don't even want to start on the mess that you get when you start to consider distributed sources, such as a torrent
@DeadMG but if you don't want to, or can't afford to pay for something, why do you deserve to take a free copy?
 
@thecoshman Deserve? Who gives a shit?
if we ran our society by some ambiguous moral system that was probably devised thousands of years ago, we'd never get anywhere.
why does the notion of "deserve" even exist?
 
@DeadMG oh, so why should I even pay for stuff in the first place? why should I listen to the prices people put on stuff? I should just take it
 
the point is that, A), I can, and B), it doesn't harm anyone else, so I don't see why it shouldn't be done.
@thecoshman Well, that's not true, because if you put the producers out of business then you will have nothing more to take.
 
There's still the notion of ownership. If you create something, isn't it kind of fair that you get to decide what to do with it?
 
@DeadMG You can steal food from a grocery too, without harming anyone. Doesn't make it right.
 
1:25 PM
@DeadMG and thus if every one decides to just pirate films, there will no money to be made from making them, and thus there will be no films
 
@rubenvb No you can't. That grocer has lost the income and the food you stole.
 
@DeadMG just because no one is 'harmed' does not mean you should just do it
 
@DeadMG as I said before, you can't predict the future. You don't know if you'd have bought the thing if you hadnt' been able to pirate it
 
@DeadMG the software publisher has lost its income as well.
 
@thecoshman Which is why I suggest alternative models. The fact that the current one doesn't work doesn't mean there aren't others that can.
 
1:26 PM
You know that as things are now, after you've seen the movie for free, or after you've used the software, you don't feel that it's worth paying for. You don't know what you would've thought if you hadn't been able to do that for free first
 
@rubenvb Not really, since I was never going to give them any in the first place.
 
@DeadMG I call bullshit on that
 
Technically, it's true that there is a slim probability that I might have paid for it.
but here's the thing
 
@DeadMG if you had the money, would you have paid for the film/software?
 
I'm a lazy, lazy fuck, and watching a film in the cinema entails high-tailing to another damn city. I have never, ever, watched a film in the cinema if someone else did not offer transportation.
 
1:27 PM
@jalf this is a silly argument. You don't know what you would do? I have this fancy ability to imagine hypothetical situations and figure out what decision i would make in that case.
 
No, here's the thing: you feel the need to use things that you don't bother paying for. Why? Why is the movie worth watching, if it is not worth paying for? Why is the OS worth using, if it is not worth paying for?
@SamDeHaan No, you don't know what you would do
 
@jalf No, you're getting confused. It has nothing to do with the money.
 
You can imagine hypothetical situations, but you can't predict which of these hypothetical situations would actually have arisen
 
I'd pay to watch The Dark Knight Rises any day.
that's why they're being so stupid about it, because there is money to be had from pirates like me.
 
You don't know if, to pick a slightly absurd example, someone would've held your dog hostage and refused to release it unless you paid for that movie you downloaded.
 
1:28 PM
lolwut?
 
@jalf True. But since that's so improbable, I'm not really going to concern myself with it.
 
@jalf That's a completely absurb example, and doesn't really support your argument at all.
 
to take another perspective
 
You know that you weren't tempted to pay for the movie on its launch day when you downloaded it, and you know that you weren't tempted to pay for it after you'd watched it. But you don't know if you'd have been tempted to pay for it if you'd gone for three months without watching it, with everyone constantly telling you how awesome it is
 
@DeadMG then the fact that when you physically steal something something is lost where as pirating is just copying is a moot point that you can no longer use in your deffence
 
1:29 PM
@jalf I've experienced that situation plenty of times in the past and have never previously been tempted.
@thecoshman How so?
ahem, to continue my previous thought
 
@SamDeHaan It illustrates a very, very simple point: you can't predict the future. You can, more or less, imagine what you would probably do in a given situation, but you don't know which situations would have arisen if things had been different
 
the other perspective is that I haven't pirated a game in many years, not since Steam became viable.
nor did I pirate various e-books, I paid for them from Amazon
 
@jalf It illustrates a very, very, simple point: You can add arbitrary restrictions to any argument, and they don't mean shit. Whether or not I would pay for content when threatened is not really important to this argument.
 
and I have a perfectly legal copy of both Windows and Visual Studio.
 
@DeadMG let me guess, through Uni?
 
1:31 PM
you also can't predict what you would've done. Humans are impulsive and easily influenced as hell. You think you're a rational being. And yet you do different things differently depending on mood, on how long it's been since you had lunch, on whether you got enough sleep last night
 
so what's more poignant is that there is only one industry which I treat in such a fashion: the moving picture industry.
 
@DeadMG one of your primary arguments that it is ok to steal is that there is nothing of momentary value that is lost. by saying "it has nothing to do with the money", you are saying that there must be some other reason why physically stealing a pair of trainers is worse then copying a film
 
@DeadMG You know, that is a perfectly valid point. The movie industry has a terribly broken business model
 
@thecoshman No, what I'm saying is that the reason why I pirate them has nothing to do with the money saved by me. Not that the money lost by a producer has no meaning to me.
 
But a meaningful protest against that would be to jsut not watch those movies
rather than pirating them
 
1:33 PM
protest? I'm not concerned about protesting.
the collapse of their own industry will be protest enough.
 
@DeadMG Thus you would be willing to pay for every film/software that you have ever stolen, seeing as the money 'saved' is not a concern to you
 
So they produce goods that you want, but you're not willing to abide by the terms of use. The rational response would then be to not use the goods
 
@jalf well, that would be the case if digital copying wasn't possible.
but the digital age changed that fact for the pirate.
 
The whole "I hate the movie industry, so I pirate all my movies" just means "I'm a lazy hypocrite who doesn't want to pay, but I won't admit it, so I blame The Man"
 
I don't hate the movie industry. They're no different than the people who never give Java lambdas, for example, or won't change the Sunday trading laws.
hell, my personal piracy rate of films is so low that they probably couldn't give a shit about me
 
1:35 PM
@DeadMG i'm not disputing that. the comfort/usability doesn't go up, though
 
@jalf I disagree with that. What's rational about not using the goods when I could, instead, achieve the same effect but use the goods anyway?
 
@DeadMG respecting other people's property. They own the movies, they get to decide what to do with them. They decide something stupid, and no one pays them. But I don't see where it means you should just disregard rules that you find inconvenient
I guess my point is this: I've pirated plenty of stuff. I still do so on occasion, but I don't pretend that it's morally right.
 
neither do I.
 
Err...
 
@DeadMG you sure do give the impression that you think it's ok
 
1:38 PM
absolutely I do
 
If you thought it was wrong to pirate movies, you wouldn't
 
but last time I checked, ever since about the year 1200 in this country, what's right and what's wrong was decided by majority vote
 
@DeadMG So it's ok, but it's not right? I thought those were pretty much synonymous
 
@jalf The simple fact is that I believe in this case that it simply doesn't matter.
 
@DeadMG I'm pretty sure the majority vote says nothing about morally right or wrong
 
1:39 PM
@jalf Our moral systems were never designed to cope with these sorts of issues, and they're pretty damned flawed to begin with.
 
@DeadMG The other simple fact is that it's not really your decision to make. Someone else might not believe that it really matters if he goes through your house and steals your laptop. After all, you're insured
 
can we just clear this up, @dead, you think it is OK to pirate a film, but it is not morally right to do so?
 
morality is personal, not decidec by "majority vote".
 
Morality is not universal.
 
@jalf Right, but I also take emotional damage from being violated and I also lose my data, and the insurance company requires time to replace it.
 
1:40 PM
Legislation never was meant to be "moral"
 
@DeadMG Someone else might think that you don't
 
@DeadMG morals are something each individual develops on there own, sure they are influenced by others
 
It tries to, but often fails miserably
 
You're not asking the owner if they agree that it's harmless
 
If I released a product, and someone would pirate it, I certainly wouldn't mind.
 
1:41 PM
So why should someone else ask you if it's harmless to steal your laptop
 
@thecoshman In case you hadn't noticed, I don't have a particular inclination that way.
@jalf Well, it's difficult to argue the same thing when I can continue to use my laptop exactly as before and infact, if the thief didn't mention it, I would have absolutely no way whatsoever to determine that it had even occurred.
 
@CatPlusPlus but you chose to say it was ok, effectively saying it is free, but I would like it if you paid me this much This is not the same as asking for so much money for a access, and then some one just deciding to take a copy
 
not to mention the fact that of the absolutely millions of people worldwide performing these actions, if I do or do not is quite immaterial.
 
Ownership semantics are messed up. :P
 
@DeadMG Millions of people have their laptops stolen too ;)
 
1:43 PM
@TonyTheLion How so?
 
@jalf As I previously implied, that's not really equivalent in many ways :P
 
@DeadMG Of course. The point is that the it doesn't matter. You pirate because you unilaterally have decided that it is harmless
 
It's like 'personal space' some people feel uncomfortable being close to others, do you not think you should respect that, even if you are fine being right up in there face?
 
whether the owner of the content you pirated agrees is, to you, irrelevant
 
@Chimera are you following this discussion? I'm referring to puppies idea of ownership. Anyway was a dumb joke.
 
1:45 PM
So if a burglar decides, for himself, that it is harmless to rob your house, then it is equivalent in that respect
 
but I could make an argument that if there were millions of thieves rushing towards your home to claim your laptop, if I happened to steal it first, I wouldn't feel bad about it at all.
 
@TonyTheLion Yeah I just started following... still a bit lost though....
 
@Chimera lol ok
 
Of course, most people would very likely agree that having your house robbed by a single person is worse than having your movie pirated by a single person
 
@Chimera you will have to go a long way back :P
 
1:45 PM
but the argument you forwarded for pirating applies perfectly well to both situations
 
Can't tell if it's being said that it's ok to steal a laptop or not.
 
@thecoshman I actually have a very strong sense of personal space and can become quite violent in a very short time if violated.
 
@DeadMG but I don't care about, I don't mind standing right up next to some one
 
@jalf except the fact that in the film case, the film owner does not lose the original...
 
@DeadMG A lot of people have a very strong sense of ownership, and can become quite violent in a short time if they discover that their stuff was pirated
@rubenvb How is that relevant?
 
1:46 PM
@jalf I don't really think that it's equivalent, because there's no factual arguments in favour of it not being harmless.
 
but as it was 'your' personal space, I would have the decency to respect you wish to have some space
 
@DeadMG Have you seen how some people react to their stuff being pirated?
 
@jalf it is relevant to how much damage the original owner suffers.
 
Some people get hysterical about it
 
@Chimera piracy
 
1:47 PM
@jalf I don't cause such a reaction. Those people have never heard of me and have no idea I pirated their stuff.
 
@DeadMG not sure if I want to meet you anymore. I don't need any more broken body parts.
 
@rubenvb No it is not. Because the @DeadMG's decision is not based on factual knowledge about how the owner will react
It is based on his own judgment of whether or not he thinks it is harmless
 
@TonyTheLion Are you saying that you'd violate him?
 
@DeadMG So? If you get burgled, you'll also have never heard of the burglar
 
@jalf Sure, I see that too, but it is relevant in the "bigger picture" (outside of what @DeadMG says)
 
1:47 PM
I think pirating is wrong, but still I do it sometimes.. not often. And wouldn't want it done with software I wrote... just being honest.
 
It’s question time with Konrad!
 
@DeadMG maybe not use personally, but by that logic, it makes looting ok, as long as your identity is hidden as well
 
@jalf True, but it's difficult to argue that you could burgle someone without them ever knowing about it.
 
@KianMayne no
 
How do I get the class in this code (Player) immutable without destroying all its functionality?
0
A: This is a python program I have written. I need a bit of help using OOP

Konrad RudolphThe best OOP advice I can give for this code is: stop writing classes. Ideally, watch the video first (it’s not that long) and come back later. But here’s the gist: A class that has only one publicly called method (or less) isn’t a legitimate class. It should be a method. Consequently, Roc...

 
1:48 PM
@KonradRudolph What did you have for breakfast this morning?
 
@Collecter I’m asking the questions here, punk
 
@KonradRudolph Awwww.
 
I mean, I'm not just talking about the fact that I hid my identity, but the fact that any given content owner has absolutely no indication that I pirated their stuff.
 
@DeadMG you could take something that have locked away in a safe, some sort of jewellery perhaps. They never look at it, they are just happy to know it is safe
 
@thecoshman Equally as improbable as jalf's suggestion of my dog being abducted to make me pay for the films I've pirated :P
 
1:50 PM
141/99 54bpm ... slight improvement
 
@DeadMG so, that's like slyly taking a sweet from a pick-n-mix, just one sweet, no big loss right? But what's this? a million people all do it?
 
@TonyTheLion Nah, that's ok.
 
@Collecter The problem is, nobody answers me. So, for the sake of conversation: a croissant and a piece of blueberry crumbly pie
 
@thecoshman No big loss != zero loss.
 
1:51 PM
@KonradRudolph Sounds good.
 
If pirating wasn't a problem, the cost of software would likely go down.
 
Stealing a physical product != stealing a digital copy.
 
@KonradRudolph That was very informative. I just hope it's correct. +1
 
get that through your heads.
Stop comparing the two.
 
@Chimera Doubtful.
 
1:51 PM
@thecoshman But secondly, I'm definitely not responsible for the actions of the other million people.
 
@DeadMG you have terrible moral feeling.
 
and I'm pretty sure that nobody is suggesting that I'm responsible for or at all capable of influencing piracy at large.
 
@DeadMG so what? does that make your actions any more acceptable?
 
I have often found pirating to be nothing more than a free demo to a lot of people. A lot of friends will pirate, then if they like the product buy the original even though they have a full version
 
@thecoshman Well, yes.
 
1:52 PM
@DeadMG I'm assuming software vendors include a markup to combat "loss" due to pirating.
 
@DeadMG hoi polloi
 
@DeadMG oh ok, so when genocide is happening, it's not so bad join. Your murder is less wrong
 
Most of us are in agreement with the fact that it's morally wrong, are we not, but the real debate is whether or not in certain circumstances it is reasonable
 
I can't change what happens to those content owners.
if I didn't pirate it, nothing would change for them.
 
Flagged:
in C#, 3 mins ago, by André Silva
I hope the person who invented the concept of recursion applied to programming rot in hell while being on a gangbang with osama, hitler and saddam...
 
1:53 PM
@Collecter I agree
 
Muhahahaha
 
@KonradRudolph scoreboard := Counter(Player). See comment.
 
@DeadMG if your only option was do with out, or pay for it, you would be more inclined to pay for it
 
@Drise Heeehe. The code works, if that’s the question. Otherwise, I’d of course claim that what I wrote is untempered wisdom. I may have a problem with lack of humility.
 
@DeadMG Using the old, "I would never have bought it anyway, so no lost sales" argument.
 
1:54 PM
@thecoshman Nowhere near enough to actually cause me to pay for anything.
in fact, I do without a hell of a lot more than I pirate.
 
If I like what I pirated, I will generally buy it.
 
@ecatmur So basically what I said after the code, have it inside the game state, right?
 
@Chimera So where is the sales loss?
 
@KonradRudolph yup.
 
@Drise None from me... from others it may be a different matter.
 
1:55 PM
@DeadMG did you never have to save up your pocket money for a toy you really wanted?
 
yes
 
@Chimera Plus I mostly play XBox games now, so it's really a non-issue for me.
 
@ecatmur The problem with that is that then they player no longer has any meaningful state (just a name), and it has one method left, i.e. it would be made redundant according to the golden rule I mention at the beginning of the post
 
I saved up for all of my gaming machines since I was about twelve.
although since my thirteen-year-old self's income was meagre, then my parents often helped fill in the gaps, as twere.
 
@Chimera well no, as you might pirate a game that you not like and not pay for it. If pirating was not an option, you probably would ave just brought it, or expected a good demo (let's not get into that one)
 
1:56 PM
@thecoshman Actually, I tend to neither purchase nor pirate.
 
@DeadMG "twere" ¬_¬ you from up north laddy?
 
You also have to look at sales gain that may result from pirating. While the person who pirated may not have bought it, their positive reviews and friends seeing it, may cause some purchases to be made.

Whether or not the industry is hurt by pirating and by how much is a complex issue.
 
with AAA games, they have a horrific tendency to be broken.
 
@thecoshman That's a good point.
 
indie games, I don't mind taking a risk now and then
but I very, very rarely purchase AAA games, and I never pirate them.
 
1:57 PM
I suck at formatting
 
even previously reliable studios like Blizzard and Valve have put out a few disappointments
 
I usually pirate a game, then buy it if I like it.
 
@Collecter definitely
 
I don't really play games. Just bout CS Source for $10.
 
@KonradRudolph It has two methods; the initialiser and the name accessor.
 
1:59 PM
I played a pirate copy of Skyrim and then purchased it on Steam. Not a big deal.
 
woah, what have I done?
 

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