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1:00 PM
says the main with a table factory just so he can spend all day (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
 
@sehe I don't know really.
 
I'd say 'pottering'. But that is google wisdom... hardly satisfactory examples to be found
 
@thecoshman You said this was your factory
I figured I could flip too..
 
@thecoshman lols
ok
this cover letter can only go wrong in +inf ways
 
@sbi what strange twitter feeds do you read...
"There are only two things a child will share willingly - communicable diseases and his mother's age." Benjamin Spock, 1945
 
1:02 PM
@sehe arts and crafts? I don't think there is a translation for the actual verb though.
 
@Neil sure you can, just not willy nilly
 
@sehe "Paper craft" or something perhaps..
 
@sehe I always used "arts and crafts"... but that's an american expression.
 
(╯°_°)╯︵ ┻━┻
 
@DeadMG Good. With that, the likeliness of it actually going wrong approaches zero. After all it can only go wrong (iff) in +inf ways :)
 
1:03 PM
@sehe there's also "handicraft"
 
@rubenvb hardly. Though in America, it's considered a more condescending term
 
@KillianDS Great. That sounds legit. May I ask how you were able to translate? Was it in response to 'pottering' or do you know Dutch?
 
@sehe No, the likelihood if it going right approaches zero.
if there are infinite possibilities but only one is the one we are looking for, then the probability of picking that one is zero.
 
@thecoshman my teachers always used it in the third through sixth grade (US).
 
@DeadMG Yeah. I know how you meant it. That's why I visualized how I was parsing that (with the iff)
 
1:05 PM
@sehe I am dutch (Belgian actually), I got to crafting myself but I had to google a bit to come to that one.
 
right
 
@KillianDS Brillant. This room works in unexpected ways
 
@sehe Don't go there.
 
@rubenvb In mysterious ways then ?:) Bosonous ways
 
@sehe What's wrong with leptonous ways or fermionous ways?
 
1:07 PM
I can live with that.
 
@KillianDS I'll remember to address you with a translation conundrum like that next time
@DeadMG Hardly anything. Except maybe my complete and utter ignorance of them
 
boson: gluon, photon, Z/W boson, and of course, Higgs if they confirm it
 
@sehe you cannot ignore fermions. They are what build up matter. Obviously they couldn't build up anything without bosons to transfer forces.
 
lepton: eletron, tau, and (I think the third is) muon, plus their neutrino counterparts
 
@rubenvb Hah. You should try me
 
1:08 PM
fermions are { up | down | bottom | top | strange | charm } quarks.
 
@DeadMG it's electron, muon, tau (the heaviest).
@DeadMG fermions are all half charge particles, which includes leptons and quarks.
 
@rubenvb I did not imply ordering, so my original statement is still correct :)
 
@DeadMG You literally said "the third".
 
@rubenvb Neither leptons nor quarks have half charge.
 
@DeadMG half integer charge
 
1:09 PM
@rubenvb Of a group of three. Did not imply "The heaviest one".
@rubenvb Nor that.
 
Why is everyone so infatuated with particle/quantum physics that is frankly quite untouchable and hardly relevant to the programming genūs
 
right
crap
fucking particle physics
 
left
wing
 
up/down quarks are +2/3 and -1/3 respectively, I believe.
 
@sehe crap-> wing?
 
1:10 PM
and electrons are -1
 
I believe...
@rubenvb left/right nonsense
 
obviously I was talking of spin charge
 
thus you make a proton from two up quarks and a down quark, which gives +1 charge
 
momentary confusion
 
and a neutron from two down quarks and an up quark, which gives 0 charge
 
1:11 PM
@rubenvb I meant that it is used plenty in UK as well, though it does not have this stigma of being a child's thing
 
fermion -> half integer spin, boson -> integer spin.
 
@rubenvb they have 2/3 and 1/3 charges
 
That's the most fundamental distinction that plays a very large role everywhere.
@thecoshman oh, gotcha.
@thecoshman I know I know. I was momentarily confused with spin. Sorry for my mistake. I'm human :P
 
Lounge<C++> Where even particle physics is a trivial subject
@rubenvb how dare you come in here, and make a simple mistake about one of those hypothetical subjects possibly known to man
 
did you know in a type I superconductor, bosons are the charge carriers?
@thecoshman It's my trade, kind of. That makes it a lot worse. And shameful.
 
1:13 PM
@thecoshman It's not hypothetical.
physics beyond the Standard Model is hypothetical right now.
but the Standard Model itself is quite rooted in reality and known to be factually accurate.
 
@DeadMG true; theoretical then
 
@DeadMG I still believe there is a better theory possible, less ... complicated.
 
@rubenvb Of course there is.
It's trivial to observe that the Standard model is not an elementary theorem
 
I just have to figure out what it is. And publish it. Before anyone else discovers it.
 
@DeadMG well, it's more a case of that it fits in with what we have seen so far
 
1:15 PM
@thecoshman that's the best it'll ever get.
 
I mean
 
You can never prove a physical theory quantitavely..
 
consider this: what makes a tau different to a muon?
 
@rubenvb or do an Albert (sp?) on it
 
@thecoshman Albert (sp)?
@DeadMG mass!
 
1:16 PM
@DeadMG I know how to pronounce the former :P
 
@rubenvb But why?
 
@thecoshman moo-on.
 
@rubenvb moo on what?
 
@DeadMG that's answered by considering the mathematical group theory and the interactions of which the particles are eigenstates.
@thecoshman that's how you say "muon"
 
if you want to explain the differences between molecules, you must have the concept of atoms and molecular structure. if you want to explain the differences between atoms, you must have the concept of particle physics and the atomic structure.
and if you want to explain the difference between the particles, then you will have to consider a more fundamental level.
 
1:17 PM
@rubenvb Futurama joke, where they imply the 'e=mc^2' equations was stolen from patent office
 
@DeadMG not really.
@thecoshman aha. I think I remember that.
 
@DeadMG do you though? (trolly sort of question)
 
well... yes.
 
There are mathematical abstractions possible that completely negate the constituents. Thing is: they are often described much later after the discovery of the constituents.
@DeadMG that's too vague a statement to mean anything.
 
@rubenvb Not really.
 
1:19 PM
The difference is already explained by the Standard Model in your (tau-muon) example.
 
@DeadMG arh, but do we
 
insofar as I'm aware, the Standard Model states that there is a difference. Not why that difference occurs.
 
@DeadMG Physics does not ensue in the why. Big misunderstanding.
The why is for philosophers.
 
@DeadMG AFAIK the SM cares not about why, simply what and maybe how
 
only in the most abstract
when you say "Why is iron different from calcium?" then physics does indeed provide an answer to that question.
 
1:21 PM
do not ask why something burns, ask how it burns
 
"Because iron has X electrons/protons and calcium has Y electrons/protons and by knowing the interactions/properties of said, we can explain it's behaviour".
 
@DeadMG the Standard Model does explain the difference between a tau and muon in that sense.
See group theory and interaction eigenstates.
 
unfortunately, eigenstates are way over my head
I'm only an armchair particle physicist
 
They shouldn't be. It's a simple math concept borne from matrices.
 
I also thoroughly ignored most of that
 
1:22 PM
Generalized matrices are operators, which under certain conditions represent observables of a theory.
 
never had it taught to me and never had any reason to study it
 
You don't know what a matrix' eigenvectors are?
 
@DeadMG matricies? you never learned about matrices?
 
Eigenstates are a functional generalization of that.
 
@thecoshman The most I know about matrices is D3DXMATRIX.
 
1:23 PM
@rubenvb Common trope, not true. You need to read The Beginning of Infinity by David Deutsch
 
never needed more
 
And if they're interesting, you give them names.
 
@DeadMG :O
 
@KonradRudolph I can disagree from the start. I don't need to read a book.
where's that Feynman quote when you need it?!
 
@rubenvb bad attitude. In fact, the book very nicely convinced me that many things I thought about the philosophy of science were in fact wrong, and I’d studied the subject quite a bit beforehand
 
1:25 PM
well, IMO, you really need to split "Why" questions into two kinds
absolute and relative
 
@KonradRudolph I never mentioned the philosophy of science. I said physics will never answer the deepest sense of "Why?"
@DeadMG and Special Relative and General Relative? ;-)
 
@rubenvb Right. But the question I asked is not the deepest sense.
@rubenvb lol, naw.
 
@rubenvb That is philosophy of science (i.e. it’s a claim in the domain of ~)
 
@DeadMG ok, misunderstood that then. i think I corrected it later on in the discussion.
 
how is a much more practical question then why
 
1:26 PM
I mean, stuff like "Why does this particle exist?" is one thing, and "What physically caused this particular state to appear from a previous state, and what was that previous state?" is another
one is philosophical, but the other clearly falls within the realm of science
 
@DeadMG again, "How does this particle exist?" is a much better question if you ask me
 
I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy. - R. Feynman.
 
@rubenvb Not really applicable here, you just claim that it’s a nonscientific problem
 
lol
just saw a loading screen that said "saving trees..."
 
lol
 
1:29 PM
and to cut this potentially endless discussion short: you can always ask “why” in such a way that it’s constructed as a fundamentally unscientific question. But a priori asking “why is suchandsuch the way it is?” is not an unscientific question
 
@KonradRudolph Science (physics) is by definition something that eventually can be proven and measured. The deep "why?" cannot be quantified.
 
trying to walk the dog, and get caught in a thunderstorm
 
@KonradRudolph You're clearly not being clear on the distinction @DeadMG proposed.
 
@TonyTheLion better it didn't take long for you to need to pick up shit :P
@rubenvb clearly :P
 
1:30 PM
@rubenvb His statement is still fundamentally correct.
 
“why is suchandsuch the way it is?” is answered by mathematical formalism in physics.
 
@rubenvb If you want to be pedantic you need to be (gasp!) pedantic. If you insist on a specific definition of science then please give an equally-detailed definition of “deep”
 
@thecoshman lol
 
@DeadMG sure. But he started flinging the science philosophy, not me.
 
as far as I am concerned, the most deep questions are entirely scientific in nature, everything that merely dresses up as deep and isn’t scientific is in reality shallow crap
 
1:31 PM
@KonradRudolph Deep questions are terminal.
if you could answer a deep question, it would yield no more.
 
@KonradRudolph deep as in the question a philosopher asks himself. Or you would ask a priest. Something without a quantifiable answer.
 
@DeadMG which is begging the question
 
@rubenvb like "do I want scrambled of fired eggs?"
 
@thecoshman scrambled ofc
 
whereas, for example, when I say "Why is ethane different from methane?", it's recursive, because it naturally leads to "What is the difference between carbon and hydrogen and why do the atoms lay out that way and etc."
 
1:32 PM
“terminal” is a weasle-word. There are no more terminal questions than there are terminal answers. Every question claiming to be terminal leads to infinite regress, by its very nature. (Turtles all the way down)
 
@thecoshman yes and no are quantifiable.
 
@thecoshman Also or* and fried*
 
@Cicada Noo, what happened to the plastic picture?
 
Science : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or the operation of general laws especially as obtained and tested through scientific method
 
@KonradRudolph What are you talking about.
 
1:33 PM
@Cicada your avatar
 
@TonyTheLion now do scientific method. I'm curious.
 
@KonradRudolph You mean my most gorgeous picture ever?
 
@Cicada the very same
@rubenvb Easy: the scientific method is is the method by which scientific knowledge is obtained. ;-)
 
@Cicada glad to see there is some sense in you; with regards to both your eggly choice and nicer picture
 
Oh, another gem: Philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds
 
1:34 PM
@rubenvb Scientific Method: principles and procedures for the systematic pursuit of knowledge involving the recognition and formulation of a problem, the collection of data through observation and experiment, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses
 
Well for some reason I seemed to be the only one to like so I removed it. Well well well.
 
@KonradRudolph that's too vague to be useful.
@TonyTheLion that's a pretty good definition. Thanks :P
 
@rubenvb That was a joke. Look at Tony’s definition, it’s circular
 
@rubenvb no problem ;)
 
@KonradRudolph how so?
 
1:35 PM
@KonradRudolph how so?
 
because both use "knowledge"?
 
Ell
are there any open source handheld game consoles equivalent to say, a DS?
 
@KonradRudolph don't see much circular about that definition? It's not defined in terms of Science or anything
 
Tony defined “science” in terms of the scientific method, I defined “scientific method” in terms of science. Circular, no?
 
1:35 PM
@bamboon Btw I'm working with GCC 4.4.7 as backend for the CUDA compiler. I think the latest supported version is 4.6 or so.
 
@rubenvb ¬_¬ no he didn't
 
@KonradRudolph Tony's second definition was on the board by the time you said that.
 
@KonradRudolph I didn't define, Webster's Dictionary did FTFY
Scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. "[4] Rules for the study of natural philosophy", , from Book 3, The System of the World. The Oxford English Dictionary says that scientific method is: "a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, an...
 
@rubenvb Ah, I hadn’t noticed that
 
Wikipedia, have fun :P
 
1:37 PM
lol
 
@TonyTheLion Webster's a moron.
 
Tony is diverting our attention. I think he misses porn.
 
he's the one who stripped out u from colour and such stuff because he thought American children were too stupid to learn it.
 
@DeadMG what else did I expect to come out of your mouth? That he was smart or clever?!
 
@DeadMG Hey buddy
 
1:38 PM
well
 
@DeadMG oh the irony
 
@rubenvb euh, what?
 
given the current state of the american government, one could argue that it was not inaccurate
@JamesDyson ohai
 
Hey coshman
 
@TonyTheLion what? You're denying it now?
 
1:39 PM
@DeadMG I refuse utterly to argue with you, as I deem that (from experience) to be an entirely pointless affair and waste of my time.
@rubenvb I'm denying everything, even that I ever denied the denial.
 
I'm not arguing or debating anything.. just making a snipe at the American state for my own personal amusement.
 
@DeadMG lol
 
@DeadMG An attempt to make language more logical is a priori laudable, no? British authors tried the same and though none succeeded, are lauded instead of scorned for their efforts
 
@DeadMG lulz eh
 
@KonradRudolph Not really.
language is by it's very nature chaotic and illogical, and nothing will ever change that
 
1:40 PM
lol @cicada's face saving.
 
@DeadMG Oh, don’t get me wrong, I agree
 
@DeadMG who says nature isn't the same?
 
@Cicada it seems like a shallow victory to know some words better then a none native speaker, but I will take it
 
What. I find human language very well structured and logical.
 
and changing it just because you can to confuse everybody is pointless
and, well, petty
 
1:41 PM
I’m a big enemy of the recent German spelling reform for that very reason
 
@Cicada and you speak french?
 
@DeadMG a good dictatorship?
 
Stop lying to yourself.
 
@KonradRudolph German needs to cut those genders ASAP.
 
@Cicada We’re talking about natural languages, not C++
 
1:41 PM
Yes precisely. Human language.
 
@DeadMG hypocrite, much?
 
Like English and such, right?
 
I'm pretty sure that English does not have genders.
 
@DeadMG it does. He, she, it ;)
it’s just that genders play no large role
 
those are not gender words. They are words that describe a gender. The two are different things.
 
1:42 PM
I think @DeadMG is trying to say the whachamacalllit "naamvallen" (dutch)
 
@Konrad yeah that's the thing haha its hardly ever c++ as the main topic
 
How can you argue that languages are illogical? Illogical compared to what?
 
the twisting of parts of words depending on where they are in a sentence.
@Cicada Math.
 
Oh well then sure.
But please realize that our languages are the fruit of thousands of years of evolution and selection, they're pretty much very good at doing their job.
 
@Cicada Logically deduce the spelling and pronunciation of “through”, please
and no appeal to etymology, that’s not the same as logic
 
1:44 PM
@KonradRudolph Define "logically"
 
@Cicada Well... not really.
 
@DeadMG Well... yes really.
 
no
 
yes
 
the human brain has, on average, a fixed capacity for extracting information from speech
 
1:44 PM
@Cicada Derived by a practical set of rules in a minimal number of steps
 
Ell
@cicada you are not allowed to ask questions in this exam, please just answer the question to your full ability
 
by my crude abuse of the theory of relativity, I must have some how reduced my speed to less than zero. It's the only explanation for this day dragging on so
 
@KonradRudolph Pretty sure it's doable, but the "minimal number of steps" is huge, because you'll have to crawl through the entire language history.
 
@DeadMG that capacity is epic though
 
@Cicada exactly, that’s why I included this criterion (or rather, that’s why language is not logical, even though there’s a definitive set of rules by which it can be deduced)
 
1:46 PM
and all human languages convene roughly the same amount of information per second
 
@DeadMG convey?
 
vatever
 
Also, source for this outrageous claim?
 
silent letters, what more do you need to say. If language was logical, there would be no notion of silent letters.
 
I watched a documentary about it
 
1:47 PM
@KonradRudolph He's right, I've read it somewhere too.
But the study was done on very few languages (7 I think)
 
then it must be true
 
Outrageous, he tells ya.
Good morning peeps.
 
@DeadMG oh, you mean a limit to the rate
 
right, but they're on the very opposite ends of the spectrum
Chinese, Swahili, English, even Native American
 
I can't remember. I'll try to find the paper that talks about that.
ALSO BEE POWER, RIGHT @JerryCoffin?
 
1:48 PM
hmm, maybe if they consider only information which is readily conveyed in these languages
 
the point is that verbally, they all accomplish the same information throughput
but some are notably simpler than others to learn, speak, and write
for example, English has a mere 26 letters plus casing, whereas languages like Chinese have a shit ton of glyphs, and English has super-simple casing and typographical rules
so you could argue that English is superior to Chinese as a written language.
 
lol.
here we go.
 
Ell
and what about Esperanto with no exceptions or whatever?
 
no idea, I've never heard or seen Esperanto
 
Oh I found the study :)
 
Ell
1:50 PM
that must be easier to learn
 
LANGUAGE INFORMATION DENSITY SYLLABIC RATE INFORMATION RATE
IDL
(#syl/sec)
English 0.91 (± 0.04) 6.19 (± 0.16) 1.08 (± 0.08)
French 0.74 (± 0.04) 7.18 (± 0.12) 0.99 (± 0.09)
German 0.79 (± 0.03) 5.97 (± 0.19) 0.90 (± 0.07)
Italian 0.72 (± 0.04) 6.99 (± 0.23) 0.96 (± 0.10)
Japanese 0.49 (± 0.02) 7.84 (± 0.09) 0.74 (± 0.06)
Mandarin 0.94 (± 0.04) 5.18 (± 0.15) 0.94 (± 0.08)
Spanish 0.63 (± 0.02) 7.82 (± 0.16) 0.98 (± 0.07)
Vietnamese 1 (reference) 5.22 (± 0.08) 1 (reference)
Fuck markdown
Page 544
 
that’s quite some deviation there
 
@Cicada you kinky bugger you
 
@Cicada Spanish has almost half the information density of Vietnamese
that’s quite the opposite of what you claimed
 
Well, I guess that means English is the ideal langauge for idiots.
 
1:52 PM
oh, and Japanese even less than half
 
Yes, but same info rate :)
 
ah damn, I’m stupid
yes, true
cool – even though Japanese is still quite a bit less
 
YES KONRAD
Finally you admit it.
Have a star.
 
How would you measure information density?
 
does C still require you to put all variable declarations at the top of the scope?
 
1:53 PM
@jalf ANSI C yes.
 
That seems incredibly subjective
 
But if you don't compile with -ansi -pedantic you'll be fine.
(afaik)
@SamDeHaan It is. The paper precisely describes what they measured.
 
@Cicada Oh my, you scared me
 
Also, I had a problem just like this a few weeks ago, and you told me the only solution was to use ranges. — Mooing Duck 11 hours ago
 
@Cicada If only I had the time/interest to spend the time to understand it. Someone, write me a simple wikipedia page for it!
 
1:55 PM
@MooingDuck Just goes to show how sleepy I was.
 
@SamDeHaan basically all languages equal all languages loved
 
@Cicada Pretty sure those words are too long for simple wiki.
 
All you need is love.
 
@Cicada C99? Or does ANSI only refer to pre-ISO?
 
@Cicada No.
 
1:56 PM
@SamDeHaan every lang same every lang sex
 
@EtiennedeMartel I thought all you needed was beer.
 
C99 lifted that.
 
@Cicada MSVC chokes on it :)
 
Long time ago.
 
@Cicada you think very little of the people in this don't you
 
1:57 PM
@CatPlusPlus yeah, I thought so
 
Oh possibly. I work only with old C.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Beer is love, and vice-versa.
 
ANSI C is C11.
 
@jalf MSVC is C89.
@RMartinhoFernandes That's what I thought.
C89 is like... sucks
 
Well my gcc doesn't complain in C89 as long as I don't -ansi -pedantic
 
1:58 PM
@Cicada -std=c89?
 
-ansi is C89.
 
-ansi does that.
 
hey, if I were to create an unordered_map<std::string, MyClass> and I insert an object of MyClass. would there be a pointer made to my object or is it a copy. So in that case a unordered_map<std::string,MyClass*> creates pointers to pointers? Or is it just a single pointer?
 
@EtiennedeMartel bear love :O
 
Actually, it occurs to me that I should change my avatar picture. I have a very nice facepalm picture somewhere …
 
1:59 PM
That's what i thought.
 
-ansi is not ANSI C.
 
Jun 29 at 10:37, by thecoshman
If you are new here, please read the newbie hints and keep the acronym list under your pillow. Thank you.
 
… always appropriate on Stack Overflow
 
@KonradRudolph Is that you.
 
1:59 PM
@Cicada It’s my hand and forehead
 

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