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sbi
1:03 PM
@Neil Remember: we're talking here the guys about whom is said that not only didn't they invent an elaborated special pen for writing in vacuum and absent of gravity, but they also didn't even develop a simple one, because a simple $0.12 pen does the job. You need to step down with your expectations, if you want to second-guess them. Expect the equipment to do exactly what it needs to do, not an iota more, and to do it in a rather surprisingly simple fashion.
 
@thecoshman You should strive to
 
sbi
I was told this was done by discs that, on the outside, were cut accordingly, turned by motors, with sensors sampling the distance to the rotation axis. But all that is hearsay, I was never granted the clearance to look into any of those boxes when it was open.
 
@KonradRudolph indeed, but they will always find a new way to screw them selves over
 
@sbi Clearance? Wow.
As if anyone could simply peer into such a box and relay all information about how it works to the nearest spy
 
sbi
@Neil Um. What's this called in English?
 
1:05 PM
@sbi I think it's clearance.
 
@thecoshman That’s not a reason not to make systems as safe as possible
 
Or authentication?
Essentially the same thing
 
@sbi clearance is indeed the word you are after
 
sbi
@Neil Ha, you have no idea about the paranoia we had to endure. Just for starters: We weren't allowed to have cassette decks, because we could use them to record things we weren't allowed to, and then pass those recordings to "the enemy". (And we're talking the 80s here. Cassette decks were nothing like MP3 players today. You didn't have to watch out that they didn't get lost in your ear, you had to watch out that they wouldn't drop on your toe.)
 
user1182183
what happend with the teen drama tag? it's not over with me ;' (
 
sbi
1:13 PM
So this headhunter sent me a message about one or two weeks ago. It referred to my current job (which you can find out if you know my real name) as being a commendation for this other job they offer me. However, they offered one in "automotive speech recognition", while my current job is all about document management. So I just laughed about it and binned the message. Now this woman is messaging me again, though, asking whether I had seen their "serious offer".
Any suggestions as to what funny stuff I should put into my condescending answer?
@GamErix Oh boy! Who'd have thought.
 
user1182183
well, I'm not crying or whatever, just a bit sad.
 
user1182183
I think Im going to force myself to be gay...
 
user1182183
9 relationships and not one longer than 1 year...
 
@sbi Tell them they just asked a carpenter to do the job of an electrician
 
@GamErix Ah, if it were that easy …
 
sbi
1:15 PM
@GamErix If the gays I got to know in the last decades (in Berlin) are representative, then the chance that a gay relationship holds longer than two or three years is vanishingly small.
@Neil Nah, that's too plain. I'd like a bit more grandeur, please. A carpenter couldn't be as condescending as I could be if he hired a cribe.
 
@sbi Hmm, let me think then
 
user1182183
probbly going to laugh, but the total lenght of all my relationships together is around ~17 months
 
user1182183
horrible
 
sbi
@GamErix Didn't you say you're 17yo? Give or take a year or to, it's all the same from my POV.
 
user1182183
ye
 
1:18 PM
@sbi may I suggest you get some inspiration
 
Wait, why would I know your current job if I knew your real name? Are you really that well known?
 
@GamErix Mine would be quite similar, if I didn’t have a six-year relationship in between. Doesn’t make it better (and I’m older than 17 + 6 years)
 
sbi
@GamErix Well, so I think there's nothing unusual in that. You are but starting to explore that thing attracting males and females to each other. It's a very good POV you have there, wanting relationships to last, and you should definitely stick to that. But you mustn't be shattered to the floor every time you fail to live up to that at 17.
 
@sbi well said
as usual
 
user1182183
longest relationship was 8 months
 
user1182183
1:20 PM
it was good
 
user1182183
until she cheat on me
 
user1182183
;X
 
sbi
@Neil Haha, no, not at all. But I'm a member of a German social network for professionals, and there you'd find out some such facts about me.
 
@sbi I actually had to look it up as soon as you mentioned it
 
@sbi oh sweat, xing! just rolls of the tong :P
 
1:22 PM
then I remembered, I already knew …
 
sbi
@GamErix I had an relationship longer than a decade which ended that way. I got a few kids are from that relationship.
 
I must be the only regular to not know sbi's real name :P
 
sbi
@KonradRudolph What, my job? Or that I'm a member there?
@thecoshman No. Very few know.
 
@GamErix Only solution for that: open relationship ;)
@sbi both …
 
user1182183
@sbi I still would love the kids, and take them if I had the money to raise them ;> But yes tht's fcking hard.. harder than me
 
user1182183
1:24 PM
and I don't think an open relationship is something for me :$ I'm not that type of human
 
sbi
@KonradRudolph Cynic!
 
@sbi it's got to the point now, where if we where to meet up, I don't think I could handle calling you anything other then sbi, and I doubt I could pronounce any other way then 'sbee'
 
@sbi No, just immensely jealous of a guy who pulled that off successfully … it’s not for me, but I have to admire the elegance of the solution
 
sbi
@GamErix At your age, you're not fixed on anything anyway. You still have a decade or two until you you're that fixated. Until then, lots of things can still happen. Maybe your next partner is into some bizarre and kinky kind of sex, and to your surprise you learn that you like that? Or maybe this only happens in ten years, and you will regret that it took you so long to discover? At your age, you don't know.
However, when you'd like to have kids, the wish to have a non-open, lasting relationship seems a good precondition.
 
user1182183
Yeah I want somebody to carry my genes on, somebody who I could be proud of
 
user1182183
1:29 PM
My mother is already proud of me, so far I reached the most in my family
 
You can always encode it and put into software you release.
 
user1182183
(if it gets to education)
 
sbi
@GamErix Well, take your time, find a woman you love, and whom you love, check out whether you two would survive after that first endorphin rush ends (3-5 years), and then go for it. :)
 
@GamErix Pass on memes, not genes. Educate somebody. That’s way more important.
 
user1182183
first adrenaline rush? :p explain :D
 
1:30 PM
I'm proud of myself, because I've been doing Android all day and am still awake.
 
user1182183
@KonradRudolph Hm, true!
 
sbi
@KonradRudolph I have known quite a few people who did that for years. However, at some point, all of those relationships broke, because one of the two got involved heavily with some other partner when it was bad for their "main relationship". It was always the same pattern, really. SO I wouldn't put any stock into open relationships.
 
@sbi Isn’t it oxytocin?
@sbi This guy had rules to avoid this, limiting off-relationship flings to once-night-stands, and never twice with the same person
(their relationship still broke, but the reason was unrelated)
 
sbi
@KonradRudolph I meant endorphin, not adrenaline. Sorry, @Gam.
 
@KonradRudolph Nah. You can only get oxytocin, AFAIK, from cuddling small cute things.
 
1:33 PM
@sbi Still not applicable here, no? Being in love is classically linked to oxytocin
 
like your own small children and, surprisingly, dogs
 
endorphin is a funny word, almost always talked about in plural
 
user1182183
@sbi "The term "endorphin rush" has been adopted in popular speech to refer to feelings of exhilaration brought on by pain, danger, or other forms of stress,[2] supposedly due to the influence of endorphins. (...) allows them to persist with activity for an extended time." This part you mean? ;)
 
hm, endorphins too, apparently
 
@DeadMG yae, apparently very good for helping you relax
 
sbi
1:34 PM
@DeadMG And from breast-feeding. Well, I guess that could count as cuddling small cute things. :)
 
@sbi mmmm, boobs
 
(and sometimes not so small)
 
Cat drugs.
 
and don't you are try to spoil them again!
 
sbi
@thecoshman Damn. I was referring to the mother cuddling the baby during breast-feeding!
@KonradRudolph That, too.
 
1:35 PM
@sbi Someone say boobies?
 
@sbi ... so was I ...
 
@sbi But of course you were
 
sbi
@KonradRudolph I have seen several such rule system. Still, I have yet to see an open relationship that did not break down because one of the two got more involved with some 3rd partner ata time the other couldn't handle it well.
 
@sbi have you ever tried an open relationship your self?
 
@sbi Shht! Don’t destroy my dream!
 
1:37 PM
@sbi I know a couple for whom it's worked out fairly well for the last couple of years at least
 
eh, I don't see the attraction to open relationships
 
Obviously, I can't say if it'll break down at some point in the future. But the same applies to any other relationship
 
if you aren't into your partner enough to sustain exclusivity, perhaps you should find a new partner?
 
user1182183
@DeadMG nor do I, it would mean I allow my GF to cheat on me, - which I don't want. I wouldn't get a second partner
 
sbi
@KonradRudolph I was indeed. (Did you know that oxytocin is suspected to start labor contractions? Now there's a hint at what to do should your wife ever be overdue...)
 
1:39 PM
@sbi Gief puppy.
 
sbi
@thecoshman Nope. Although I had a wife who tried to — without consulting me. :-/
 
@sbi oh, you found out and then she decided to suggest it to you? how kind of her
 
sbi
@jalf What's "a couple of years"? Three? Five? Eight? A dozen?
 
@sbi typically, two
 
sbi
@thecoshman No, she discussed it with me. I didn't want to. She did it anyway. It ended badly.
@DeadMG Huh?
 
1:40 PM
@sbi Cuddling puppies yields oxytocin as a response.
 
so if your wife's overdue and you need some oxytocin, give her a puppy
 
@sbi I'm not sure, to be honest. Two or three, I'd guess.
 
sbi
@DeadMG Ah. Well, when this happened to us, we thought of another way to do that.
 
don't want to know :P
 
1:41 PM
gaaah, why are boolean operations in bash not short-circuited!?!
 
Because it's bash.
Also in where?
foo || bar is short-circuited.
 
user1182183
I regret 1 thing... I didn't go on holidays, i stayed to be with her,.. I could go and probbly the relationship would last a bit longer
 
sbi
@jalf That's not much. Without doing an extensive stochastic analysis, I feel like after 3-4 years most of those relationships broke. Although I have known one that broke after almost ten years.
 
@CatPlusPlus Not in if [[ a || b ]]
 
user1182183
@sbi what was the reason it broke?
 
sbi
1:43 PM
@DeadMG Too bad then that I already explained. :)
@GamErix Um. I already wrote that, didn't I? Twice.
 
@sbi They've been together quite a bit longer, but as far as I know, the "open" thing is only those 2-3'ish years ago
 
I almost fell into a three way relationship, but the 'new' person was not so keen on the idea. So its stayed as it has
 
user1182183
@sbi ah it was an open relationship xD explains everything.
 
sbi
@thecoshman Well, have you ever thought of being on the side of the sex that exists twice in such a relationship? That is, you and another man share a woman? What would you feel about it? To me it seems this is always easy when you're the one that's coveted by two, but it's much harder to endure when you have to share the object of your desire with someone else.
 
ah well, it doesn't matter. Given that you claimed to have never seen an open relationship that didn't break down, I just figured it might be relevant to point out that they do apparently exist. Sure, you can say "yes but just wait another N years, and I bet it'll fall apart". But that can be said for any relationship
 
1:48 PM
I don't always visit the lounge...
 
@sbi yeah I know. still, in the long run things have worked out well.
 
user1182183
n = 100 and I'm happy
 
...but when I do, there's sex talk
 
user1182183
@LuchianGrigore sorry, it's because of me
 
@sbi Fortunately was not paying attention
 
1:48 PM
@GamErix hardly
 
sbi
@LuchianGrigore So what are you doing here? We're talking relationships, endorphin and oxytocin, and how to speed up child birth. Not sex.
@DeadMG Nobody expected anything else from you.
 
there's been a lot a tough love going for dead recently... are we trying to fix him or something?
 
sbi
@thecoshman That's not condescending, it's plain rude and mean. Funny as hell, yes, but I'd like to write a very polite letter which nevertheless makes that woman cringe while reading it. I guess I'm on my own then, the lounge's population isn't good in being polite while sneering at others. :(
 
@KonradRudolph that doesn't mean anything
 
@ecatmur Yes, I figured that out …
I was actually just modifying existing code which is a bit … unconventional
 
1:57 PM
@sbi so, you want to mock her, with out being mean... to what end? if you don't want the job, just tell her straight with out being a dick about it. If you want to be a dick, don't do it half arsed
 
hmm, actually it does, but it probably doesn't mean what you think it does
anyway you shouldn't have side effects within a [[ ... ]]
 
@ecatmur Just for reference, what’s the recommended way? I now do it like this (test whether a file is empty): if [ ! -f "$file" ] || [ "$(stat -c%s file)" == "0" ]; then …
 
sbi
@thecoshman Actually, being mean would be "doing it half-arsed". If you want something fully blasting, offend while being polite.
 
Hello there!
 
@Cicada too late
 
sbi
1:59 PM
@Cicada Hi, child. Did you already do your homework?
2
 
Yes. No. I'm having a problem with Linux.
 
@KonradRudolph yes, that's correct
 
sbi
@Cicada Well, you know you're not allowed to browse the Internet until you have done your homework. Dont' you?
 
Daddy sbi.
Woa, rolls right off the tongue.
 
sbi
Jun 13 at 14:52, by Cicada
@Neil (Shhh, @sbi is actually my father, but keep that for you)
 
2:03 PM
@Cicada Join the club
 
@KonradRudolph actually you can just use [ ! -s "$file" ]
 
@Cicada Why would you go to the internets, when you have man pages?!
2
 
-s tests whether the file exists and is nonempty
 
@ecatmur oh screw you :p
thanks
 
@SamDeHaan Ha. That's a good one.
 
2:07 PM
Because I have an exe in my path, that bash perfectly resolves through tab, and yet when I run it, it doesn't find it? wat
 
@Cicada which exe
 
Finds it
And the path is correct
 
restart shell
 
That's why I'm baffled.
Did already a few thousand times!
 
alternatively, env exe to start it
 
2:09 PM
@Cicada, found your problem. You finally got your linker to give you an executable.
 
The linker finally links yes. But the resulting program doesn't work. Fuck you nVidia
Their linker is buggy at best.
 
Maybe you are the problem, hmmm?
 
Excluded.
 
If it says "file not found" on running the exe
then that means the runtime linker failed to find a library
It's one of the more amusing Unix gotchas
 
Stupid question, you tried running ./executable ?
 
2:12 PM
@Cicada Are you perchance trying to execute the device executable?
 
What, what, what? The word the brain says? I was referring to the many many many many RASIN inspired YT comments :)
When at work, I can't actually go and watch YT videos
 
@KonradRudolph ... oh god
 
@Cicada ^^ happens to the best of us (just to be clear, I’m talking about me here)
 
I once spent a good hour in a miasma of coffee deprevation trying to understand why a certain command wouldn't do what it was supposed to only to discover I was launching the wrong command the entire time
Granted, the names were similar, but in my defense I really wasn't feeling terrific that day
 
sbi
@Cicada While @Konrad is certainly a nice chap (and, TTBOMK, available hint), he's not a god. I can assure you that, we had beers together.
 
2:20 PM
Restarting shell is silly. hash -r to remove the cache.
 
sbi
Well, once we're into telling embarrassing stories about coding: I spent the better part of yesterday's afternoon trying to find out how my PS script managed to pass strings to a function, when I was expecting IO.FileInfo — only to find out, after hours of desperate fiddling, that the script actually did what I thought it should do, and that only my way to print those variables for debugging had caused the misconception.
 
@EtiennedeMartel: take a look at python, that is a language where exceptions are the way to go. Iterators use them for example and those are not exactly uncommon or bad... — ted 7 hours ago
I don't really understand what he means.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Python uses exceptions for control flow
 
Smells like Java.
 
@KonradRudolph Oh fuck.
 
2:22 PM
@sbi The more experience I gain with programming, the more I get hammered into thinking that stupid tests are always good tests
 
Exceptions have their place - control flow is not there.
 
I use mostly booleans for control flow. And exceptions for error construction.
 
"That definitely should work... Let me test it..."
 
@EtiennedeMartel His example refers to the for loop which terminates either if you break from it manually (using break, return etc) or when the iterator object throws a StopIteration exception (which the loop catches and terminates itself)
 
Oh no, more exception purists.
 
2:24 PM
@CatPlusPlus Tututu.
 
StopIteration is used, because practicality beats purity.
 
*sigh* What ever happened to "exceptions should be thrown exceptionally"?
 
@Neil Every time you make your program idiot proof, they build a better idiot.
 
@Drise I don't have any experience with Python, but that sounds horrific
 
@Neil Looks like .NET's approach to "stop when a boolean turns false" wasn't simple enough for them.
 
2:27 PM
@KonradRudolph lolwot, you must be kidding
 
As I see it, an exception should be thrown when something unexpected occurs. If you're testing to see if a file exists, why the hell would you throw an exception?
 
> Raised by an iterator‘s next() method to signal that there are no further values. This is derived from Exception rather than StandardError, since this is not considered an error in its normal application.
 
It's one thing if you expect it to be there, then an exception is warranted
 
Who the fuck thought this would be a good idea?
 
@DeadMG No, why? It’s a legitimate design (although I wouldn’t have chosen it either)
 
2:29 PM
Should really be called NonLocalControlFlow rather than Exception
and non_local_exit instead of raise
 
@KonradRudolph It's just an OO version of goto!
 
@KonradRudolph Because it's horrifically over-complicated and a way unnecessary use of exceptions?
 
not really, no
 
I mean, using goto is bad, but using exceptions to jump to another block is alright?
 
did you know that exceptions can now carry values between coroutines?
 
2:30 PM
anyway, off, going t see a guy on a unicycle falling on his face
 
Gotta love double standards here.
 
Sounds a bit like breaking in loops. Though even that I try to avoid wherever possible
loops should exit when its condition is met, and not before, unless a true exception is thrown
At least that's my idea
 
@sbi meh
 
@Neil or a break; happens.
 
2:35 PM
@Neil generally yes, but sometimes breaking out early can provide a much cleaner solution that is easier to follow
 
@rubenvb Sometimes it's unavoidable, but many programmers use it like while(true) { do_stuff(); if(condition) break; }
Usually by the same programmers that absolutely love gigantic while loops
 
@Neil well, ok. (gigantic while loops I use for input: while(stream>>token){...} but then I don't break from them)
 
@Neil just like you might with a game loop? though in that case, you might just do while(runGame){ do_game_stuff(); }
 
@DeadMG How do you define Wide's evaluation order?
 
LTR
 
2:38 PM
@thecoshman Sure, why not? At least you have the advantage of knowing where the exit point of the loop would be
 
although I am considering exchanging it for order of parser precedence, so right-associative stuff would be RTL
 
@rubenvb Sometimes gigantic while loops are unavoidable, but when avoidable, I avoid them
You could of course use breaks to do it in the same way, but that's not good practice if readability is at all important
 
@Neil well, it would either be at the end/start of a loop or where call 'break'
 
@thecoshman Yes, you could have one break and only leave the loop there rather than the condition (while(true) i.e.)
But loops like that can grow in complexity and gain many other breaks
 
'tis another fine example of something that you can throw blanket statements at
 
2:41 PM
I think it's the equivalent of putting goto label after loop and writing goto
Uncoincidentally bad practice for the same reason
 
Not really equivalent to a label.
 
though feel free to use gotos. At least I don't have to debug it
 
I have five goto's in my current project. Sue me.
 
goto/label can be used from anywhere. break is just breaking from the loop.
 
@SamDeHaan In which way?
 
they jump about five lines out of an if into an else following that.
 
@SamDeHaan So that makes it okay to use so long as goto is local?
 
There's nothing wrong with goto, just as there's nothing wrong with break. It adds complexity to debugging, but that doesn't make it eeeeevil.
 
Qualcomm Y U no release OMX blobs for my armv6 phone so I can wathc Youtube HQ with ICS?!?
 
@SamDeHaan :) Again, so long as I don't have to debug your code, have at it
 
2:46 PM
@rubenvb sounds awful
 
@thecoshman well, I didn't see any way out. You can take a look if you want. ;-)
 
Good morning everyone :)
 
@rubenvb maybe later
 
If you seriously can't handle debugging with a couple gotos, I don't think I want you debugging anything with a loop more complex than i = 0; i < 10; i++
 
@thecoshman lol let me know :P
 
2:48 PM
@SamDeHaan Depends on the gotos.
 
@rubenvb I'm curious, think you can throw up a pastebin? :D
 
@SamDeHaan it's not a case of not being able to, it's more that it almost always makes code needlessly more complex
 
@DeadMG Definitely true, gotos can be evil, but blanket statements tend to be more evil.
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel looks cool
 
@SamDeHaan I think this is better (than a pastebin). It's a lexer/parser thing, so brace yourself. There's four in there, another in this file
 
2:51 PM
@SamDeHaan Point is not to make life difficult needlessly and deliberately for a programmer.
If you use a goto and I have to understand why the hell you decided on a goto rather than a break, the flaw is in the code, not the one understanding it
 
I'm curious what you'll think :)
 
Looking at commandline first, since it's only one
 
the point of that goto is that ambrosia .. some_target and ambrosia some_target need to work where .. is the source directory and some_target is a build target in the project file.
 
so much documentation I am reading proudly proclaims that bash is much better than tcsh. I do prefer bash, but I hate the unjustified promotion of a tool.
you can't just sit there and say x is better than y
 
@rubenvb Yep, I got that (good comments ftw).
 
2:58 PM
you need to at least provide some reasoning
 
@SamDeHaan lol I try :)
 

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