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11:00 AM
@jalf Female minority > male majority
But okay.
 
@thecoshman Piece of crap? Then it'd be a polished turd.
 
It's a shame it'll never be more than that.
 
@Cicada lol.
 
But tbh I never could see what was so amazingly exciting about it
 
@Cicada well, if we are going to start with 'sexist' comments :P
 
11:00 AM
It was interesting to see that it could be done, of course
but I don't want an OS written entirely in .NET
 
lunch time :D
 
I can't see what the advantage of it would be
 
Bon appétit
@jalf Just the theory behind it is great
 
@jalf The main advantages that I've seen "advertised" were security and shit.
 
Yeah. Language-based contracts
 
11:02 AM
@Cicada but if you're just after the theory, why do you want to see it turned into a real product? They already did all the theory
 
Because I think great theory can lead to great products
 
No idea if those were real or imaginary.
@Cicada At least in theory, right? ;)
 
I'm not sold on the security thing. most bugs these days seem to stem from more complex things than buffer overflows alone
 
@Cicada But which products? A .NET-based OS is not a great product
 
you can still incorrectly sanitise input etc. in C#/.NET
 
11:03 AM
if they use what they learned to make their other products better, that's obviously great
 
@jalf Not necessarily .NET based. Just the fact that the OS can guarantee the correctness of your program is great. This avoids the need for an MMU and stuff like that
 
But you don't need Singularity to evolve past the prototype stage to do that
@Cicada The OS can't guarantee the correctness of your program. Not for any reasonable definition of "correctness"
 
@awoodland Unfortunately there are still loads of bugs from buffer overflows, but I agree with you.
 
Correctness as is "is not going to do any access violation"
 
MMU? As in Memory Management Unit? What does that have to do with the programs you write?
 
11:05 AM
May I? The whole purpose of Singularity was to explore process isolation and they did this with great success.
 
@jalf if you trusted the code more you could skip the MMU and virtual address spacing on cheap hardware
 
@jalf Since you can't choose which address to write to (you only have references) the MMU is not needed
 
@awoodland The purpose of virtual memory is hardly just safety
 
The managed nature of typed IL was crucial to be able to verify that the code that executes doesn't do unsafe shenanigans that allowed the OS to let code run with less overhead
 
@Cicada The MMU has a lot of other tasks on top of that
 
11:06 AM
@jalf AFAIK they use some of it in W8
@jalf The other tasks of the MMU can entirely be replaced by the OS
 
@Cicada yes, if you're willing to throw performance out the window
 
They showed great performance in terms of kernel transitions and context switching, they had really good performance in terms of interfacing with the OS stack.
 
I don't know about you, but I'd rather stick with a virtually free piece of hardware which dramatically improves performance of every aspect of a modern OS
 
@jalf I don't think that claim is valid. Why would you throw performance?
 
@Cicada Yup, and that's great
 
11:07 AM
I do agree that the "harder" the better
 
Is anybody doing any serious gui work with Qt here?
 
I do textboxes yes
I can't wait to be in 20 years from now.
 
@Cicada ... because the MMU has to do a lot of work which is fairly expensive. DMA transfers, for example. Try going into control panel on Windows and switch a harddrive from using DMA to PIO, and look what it does to performance
Memory mapping is a quite handy capability too. And just the ability to transparently deal with memory paging saves the OS a ton of work
Having the CPU do everything instead of relying on specialized hardware is generally a good way to ruin performance
Plus, of course, there's no point in removing the MMU. What would you gain? It's hardly going to make a difference in cost
 
Oh. Someone considered flagging this
in C#, 13 hours ago, by Greg
I see, you were actually just writing gibberish. That sentence doesn't make grammatical sense without a question mark at the end.
Apparently the flag was revoked before I could invalidate it
 
Yeah, same deal here...
Somebody is crancky
*cranky
 
11:11 AM
@Cicada You want to be old?
 
"Don't critizing mine grammar!"
 
oh well, back to fighting CMake
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes The foolishness of the young: they want to be old.
@jalf Farewell, brave knight!
 
@sbi I don't.
 
Who says I'm young
 
11:12 AM
@jalf you should try tundra
 
Or ninja
 
sbi
@Nils That I don't know, but your question gets asked about thrice a week.
 
@jalf github.com/deplinenoise/tundra it's not cmake but it's a good build system
 
sbi
@Cicada Me. Why are you asking?
 
@sbi No reason not to, actually. Just don't skip valuable time. Einstein has postulated that you can do so only by expending considerable energy, so, since mankind is lazy (as is nature, in a way), there isn't a big risk
 
11:13 AM
But not having virtual addresses, tlbs and stuff means that if your program crashes.. the whole OS crashes. How would you validate programs in the first place?
@sbi But I haven't got an answer so far.
 
@JohnLeidegren Good build system? Oxymoron alert!
 
@JohnLeidegren Not really an option. We're using cmake on a fairly big cross-platform project. Changing to another build system would be a lot of work
 
sbi
@Nils How in the world is this a reply to anything in the ten messages before it? And if it's not, why doesn't it refer to what it's referring?
 
@Cicada Unless you gravatar is not you or from years ago, you're young.
Anyways, you've told enough about yourself to reveal that indeed, you are
 
Meh I hate build systems.
 
sbi
11:15 AM
@Nils Well, if you keep asking, some of us might admit that they're doing nothing but Qt GUI work all day long. So just keep hammering at us...
 
@jalf Yeah, I know, switching isn't really in the cards, but it's worth taking a look at it, it's cross platform.
 
@Nils that's what Singularity was supposed to do. But virtual addresses serve a lot of other purposes than that (plus, of course, preventing users from run the huge amount of existing non-verifiable software, as Singularity would have to do, pretty much makes it a nonstarter)
 
@sehe No reason not to? What about being stuck in a decaying body?
 
hehe :D
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Is that the story of your life, robot?
 
11:15 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes You know, there is no reason not to want things. It's not gonna happen anyways.
 
What's your problem with Qt
 
@jalf Yeah what other do we need virtual addresses for? Access control and virtual memory or do I forget something.
 
sbi
@Nils That's like saying "I hate going to the dentist". Shrug. Of course, everybody hates it.
 
Also the 'wanting to be older' usually pertains to 'having more experience' and the associated benefits
 
@Cicada I haven't much experience with it.
It looks all good and stuff, but for example: qt-project.org/forums/viewthread/17441
lol @sbi
 
sbi
11:17 AM
@sehe Ach, don't be so reasonable.
 
Nice. You could s/Qt/life/
Or s/Qt/plainchant/
Or s/Qt/sex/
Good Formula(TM)
 
I have a life.
 
@sbi Sorry. In a bad mood today. I promise to be unreasonable as always tomorrow
@Nils Unsollicited assertion alert
 
Is someone interested in design questions, like these one?
 
sbi
@sehe That's quite an unreasonable statement, I think.
 
11:19 AM
I mean the "What's the problem with XXX" / "I haven't [got] much experience with it" combo works, regardless of XXX, even if XXX == pure gold
 
2
Q: Should I use SIMD or vector extensions or something else?

omercan1993I'm currently develop an open source 3D application framework in c++ (with c++11). My own math library is designed like the XNA math library, also with SIMD in mind. But currently it is not really fast, and it has problems with memory alignes, but more about that in a different question. Some da...

 
@sbi Thanks for pulling me unstuck then
 
sbi
@Nils That doesn't mean you have experience in leading it, though.
 
@Mysticial ^ that question is for you (or @PaulR)
 
@Nils well, singularity could theoretically remove the need for access control. (although even then, I see no reason not to have hardware-supported access control as well), but yeah, virtual memory is hard to avoid even in magic singularity wonderland
 
11:20 AM
@sbi what?
 
sbi
@omercan1993 Drop-by linking to your own question is frowned upon here, and might earn you downvotes. Please read the newbie hints, linked from the right-hand panel.
@Nils What what?
 
"That doesn't mean you have experience in leading it, though."
 
@jalf Singularity didn't throw virtual address spaces away.
 
sbi
@Nils what?
 
I don't want to be old I just want to see how things evolve, out of curiosity. Put my brain in a jar after I die please, and show me the world in two million years.
 
11:21 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes No, but the claim was that with Singularity you could throw away the MMU, which would mean throwing away virtual address space
 
@jalf You can
 
or, of course, emulating it in software, which would be crippling
 
µ.Net does that
 
@Cicada does what?
 
Throws away the MMU
(Admittedly there's no DMA)
 
sbi
11:22 AM
6
Q: Is it true that you can't tweet "Get Better." because it's something Dorsey's father used to say?

ThecafremoI've tried to tweet "Get Better." (without the quotes) a dozen times now, and it keeps not showing. A friend of mine told me that, while in High School, Dorsey's father used to spur him to work harder with that exact sentence. I've done some research and couldn't find any evidence of this, neit...

 
@Cicada That's like saying we could get rid of NASA, because you can move around by bike. Admittedly, that won't help you move satellites into space.....
 
@sbi I live off of radioactive decay.
 
Whoa. Mind = blown. — Konrad Rudolph 11 mins ago
 
@jalf Wat.
 
What is µ.Net btw? Don't think I've heard of that
 
11:24 AM
Note the Konrad Rudolph♦ 11 mins ago on Skeptics.SE
 
@Cicada Any sane computer needs DMA, just like it needs a number of other features provided by the MMU
 
sbi
@sehe Oh, I didn't know he is a mod there. I am not surprised, though. He keeps twittering about Skeptics.SE.
 
oh, that one
I don't suppose you noticed the "The .NET Micro Framework is .NET for small and resource constrained devices" part?
 
AFK. I happen to have classes to attend. Sadly.
@jalf You don't suppose wrong
 
11:25 AM
In other words, it doesn't try to solve the problems a PC OS would have to solve
 
Arguably no
 
sbi
@Cicada Now that's a few more negations than my brain can stomach at noon time.
 
such as performance and large workloads.
 
Well I guess people are not going to invest into something like singularity, too much cost until you get profit. However if we decided to go the singularity way some 30 years ago we might would have some benefits we do not have.
 
I'm certain a well designed system could handle all that without an MMU
 
11:26 AM
@Cicada You're still wrong. :)
 
If DMA is language restricted too, that is
 
@Cicada IIRC address translation is rather cheap if caches can be used properly.
 
@cica Yeah, that's really a far-fetched idea
 
It might appear that that there isn't just an upper limit for tweets, but perhaps also a lower limit, that people usually don't hit? — sehe 17 secs ago
 
So I'm not sure weather Singularity would be a significant performance improvement.
 
11:27 AM
I'm more interested by the theory behind it
 
The weather is never sure
 
sbi
@Nils I'm not sure "going singularity" means (only) what you think it means.
 
@jalf No.
 
@Cicada Ahhh now you are suddenly interested in theory :)
 
@JohnLeidegren Saying something is "far fetched" is incredibly risky these days
@Nils I've said that 25 mins ago already
 
11:27 AM
It couldn't because (1) that system woudl still need a mechanism for doing DMA transfers efficiently, (2) that system would need a way to efficiently cope with multiple applications consuming more memory than you have RAM (swapping pages out), and (3) that system would need a way to cope with fragmentation (having 40 processes in the same address space would practically guarantee fragmentation up the wazoo
 
I'm afraid I'm gonna have to admit you guys are right because I have an OCaml course waiting for me
 
@sbi Decided to design OSes in a Singularity like way..
 
So yes. You're right. Boo
 
Well, those are just the first three reasons that came to mind. I'm sure there are more
 
sbi
@jalf Weren't you going to go to fight The Über Build System™?
 
11:28 AM
well I need to get work done
bye
 
@sbi Do you think he wants to?
He'll grab any opportunity to not think about it.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes He might be masochistic.
 
@Cica well, Singularity is an interesting concept. I actually ran the damn thing back in the days and also talked to Andrew about building a Windows Manager for the system. Ultimately what you try to do there is not different from how things are done traditionally but how to approach process isolation by going through an intermittent program representation, i.e. typed assembly language.
 
@sbi I am
 
@Cica actually I think is name was Galen Hunt, either way, Singularity does not do away with traditional OS things like DMA or MMU it just get's away nothing having to do things it doesn't need because everything is managed and a big part of what makes that work are IL and garbage collection.
 
sbi
11:33 AM
@jalf Oh, before I hovered my mouse over your message I was wondering which of mine you answered with yours. :-/
 
@cica e.g. all software in Singularity runs in ring 0 because it can. There's no need for it to rely on hardware to protecting memory but they still use DMA and MMU.
It's awesome to realize that the person your trying to correct has left the building
 
@JohnLeidegren Ain't it though? Lets call him elvis next time we see him.
Or her.
 
@sbi heh
 
@sbi Going to dentist does not necessarily have to be a bad thing, but it depends solely on the size of the dentist's cleave. (And obviously, on gender ...)
 
11:41 AM
What's a "cleave"?
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes The fold between a woman's breasts?
 
oh now i can't edit the sodding thing
cleavage*
 
@sbi That's cleavage!
 
neckline if you will
Yeah i suck at typing
But i do have GREAT experience with dentists.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Google images seems to disagree with you.
 
11:42 AM
"cleave" is a verb.
 
Yeah it means to hit in an arc ^^
 
There's awfully little C++ talk in here...
 
C++, i may have heard that somewhere already!! :)
But you mustn't forget that this room has the best sex. I wonder why the topic has changed since then though :(
 
sbi
@JohnLeidegren This is called "Lounge" for a reason. There's another room for talking just C++. It was pretty empty, though, when I last looked (a few months ago), and might already have dwindled into nothingness.
 
There's also a room called Friends Forever or something along such lines.
But I can't imagine the level of despair needed to actually visit it.
 
sbi
11:45 AM
@ScarletAmaranth It's a room meme to have regularly changing funny taglines.
 
Yeah but how else are newcomers gonna know that this room INDEED does have the very best sex?
 
@ScarletAmaranth It'll be our little secret.
 
sbi
@ScarletAmaranth We're not interested in advertising sex. Despite of what the meta police thinks, sex is merely one more topic discussed here once in a while.
 
@sbi We'll I don't mind the conversation, just making an observation
 
@sbi Yea i'm just kidding :)
 
11:48 AM
@ScarletAmaranth Well in that case, so was I. *scratches head nervously*
 
sbi
@JohnLeidegren I didn't imply you were minding, I just explained it. :)
 
0
Q: template famous error c++

זאבי כהןI have this simple function to check if a value is in list: template <class T> bool IsinList(list<T> l, T x) { for(list<T>::iterator it=list.begin(); it != list.end(); it++) { if (*it == x) return true; } return false; } I used the function...

Look, a famous error.
 
roughly translated "It always spring in the eyes of the dentist's assistant"
 
@sehe That melody makes me want to grab my guitar and jam my neighbors out of the neighborhood :)
 
Lol
 
11:51 AM
morning
 
@DeadMG afternoon
 
sbi
@DeadMG Did you fly to Merkia over night?
 
no, why?
 
sbi
@DeadMG It's morning now there, isn't it?
 
@ScarletAmaranth It was a hit in Holland
 
sbi
11:55 AM
:3817633 Stop deleting your messages, goddammit!
 
@sehe Yeah speaking of hitting, i had an angry neighbor a few days ago knocking on my door demanding i stop jamming so loud. As it turned out, he lives 3 floors above me : - /
@sehe He fortunately didn't hit me afterall since that with my physical prowess would probably pulverize me ... :)
 
@sbi Merkinia?
 
Amerkistan
 
I love the way we have a Q+A site for logging bugs ¬_¬
@sbi The English language disagrees with you
 
You have bugs in logging code?
And a site to track them?
 
12:08 PM
@sehe huh? I meant the word that would equal 'registering' in this context
 
I wonder if there is a bugzilla for fixing bugs in bugzilla
 
@Neil fairly sure it does :P
 
@Neil I bet there is
 
Isn't that interesting. :)
 
@Neil not really
 
12:09 PM
@thecoshman That was a predictable answer.
 
@Neil that was a predictable statement
@sbi so by your logic... 'anal' means the same as 'analysis'
 
sbi
@thecoshman No need to find an elaborate example.
Your logic is sound, but it's worth nothing, because millions of google hits disagree with you.
 
@thecoshman Putting the fun back in funeral!
 
@sbi no, billions of Google hits show that 'cleave' is close enough to cleavage to result in pages of boobs
 
12:13 PM
@thecoshman Can't argue with that. I'd know.
 
@sbi I don't agree with your millions of google hits. For once, I vastly prefer this over that, e.g.:
 
@sbi and a more sensible search disagrees even better then I do
 
 
sbi
@thecoshman You are a man, aren't you? So you can't argue with billions of boobs. :b
 
@sbi a man I am, an idiot I am not
 
sbi
12:16 PM
@sehe How erotic! :)
 
@sehe And just look at that cleavage..
 
@sbi Thanks for finding that for mee
@Neil Derp. Cleave.
 
@sehe It's the state of having cleave.
 
@Neil No. It's the action of cleaving the breast
"Having cleave" would possibly mean something like "Having sticky parts to it"
 
I swear, who ever first wrote this code had the primary goal of making it as painful to read as possible
 
12:24 PM
@thecoshman I think I know that guy!
 
@jalf :P it's like some sort of borg collective
 
sbi
12:37 PM
> The first reaction was repulsion, then acceptance... and finally the sad realization that I would never be this awesome. — Pretty safe for work
(The Titty-Bear, OTOH, while totally cute, is not safe for work at all.)
 
@sbi Not pretty and Not safe for work...
 
@sbi filtered :(
 
12:57 PM
Damn, I'm reading some code I wrote 8 months ago, and I'm surprised it looks this good.
 

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