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12:00 PM
Since it was your idea in the first place, you started out with the best knowledge of the idea. When you changed your mind, you must have received some additional knowledge on top of that. So all in all, the odds are that you, the person who came up with the idea, is most well-informed about it, and your current opinion of the idea is likely to be more accurate
especially if you factor in the natural bias that it's your idea, so you'll be inclined to defend it and stick with it as much as possible. If you discover a big enough problem to overwhelm that bias, then that also lends weight to your new opinion
 
@thecoshman ref# What @jalf said :)
 
anyway, seems a pointlessly pedantic discussion :)
of course it doesn't prove anything if the person who came up with an idea changes his mind about it
 
@jalf True !
 
and of course it isn't insignificant either
 
12:26 PM
goddamnit
practically this whole planet is covered in Aquifer
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Bad news: it's very hard to get booze when you don't have e.g. elves to sell you surface seeds.
 
@LucDanton Gather plants?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Seed stock is very, very slowly getting up.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes if there are any. ;)
 
Also, it turns out you can live off eggs very easily. With enough variety in the poultry, you can get lavish meals out of them. It's silly.
 
12:30 PM
My dorfs eat meat.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes How does that work anyway? I get surface plants and eventually seeds, sure, but once I get brewing going how do I get more seeds for the next season? More gathering? Force feed the berries to the dorfs?
 
@LucDanton AFAIK brewing retains the seeds.
 
That would make sense.
Does someone use one of those tools to have a 3d representation of the fortress?
Making a tower fortress seems much more practical than I thought it would be.
 
@LucDanton brewing doesn't consume the seeds, afaik
 
Good afternoon.
 
12:38 PM
oh nm, too late :)
 
Hello :)
 
Can't wait till clang supports user-defined literals.
 
Can't wait till all popular compilers support the same subset of C++11
(if not all of it)
 
@DeadMG Obviously, that's true
 
rvalue refs and lambdas are gettin there
 
12:43 PM
I want to use user-defined literals for binary number literals. Now I use hex-notation with a comment, but that sucks.
 
What about gcc ? Last time I checked for it, it wasn't supporting rvalue references yet
 
Binary number literals suck.
They're ginormous.
 
but perhaps the gcc with my Linux distribution was a bit old
 
GCC has had rvalue references for quite some time
 
@ereOn it must have been
 
12:44 PM
@ereOn They all support the same subset of currently supported features by all compilers. (Tautology.)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes 0_b (This means false in binary.)
 
@StackedCrooked :p
 
I have come to a new realization
I hate UI coding
 
@LucDanton Very useful that one.
 
@DeadMG you're not the only one.
 
12:45 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes 1_b
 
@DeadMG if that is a new realization, I can only assume that you've never done UI coding before?
 
yeah
 
0b11111000001101010010011010010100 // more readable than 0xF8352694?
 
although it probably doesn't help that I'm effectively having to code my own from scratch
 
@DeadMG I came this realization a while ago
 
12:46 PM
UI coding is fun if you can implement your program bottom up so that the UI code naturally lays on top of your underlying interfaces.
 
maybe I should just cut this whole malarky and go with something more informal
 
ohhhh malarky :P
 
I don't need to be the next WPF
 
@daknøk That must mean you are implementing them. Pretty much anyone can wait by definition
 
@StackedCrooked and only if you can use data bindings.
 
12:47 PM
Got the first steel bar! Time to eat now.
 
WPF is actually kinda fun
but only for small amounts of time
 
WPF sucks
 
lol
@DeadMG the standard DeadMG answer
 
WPF: "Please, let me control absolutely everything and enforce crappy design on you!"
 
Last time I gave WPF a try, I created an amazing piece of UI... which was lagging as hell.
 
12:48 PM
What UI doesn't suck, really?
 
@DeadMG I hate UI coding (FTFY)
 
DeadMG: "No, you absolutely may not. I'm gonna go hardware render my own."
 
Oh and, what was the 'new' part?
 
@ereOn yea true, tends to be somewhat slow
 
@RMartinhoFernandes light switches.
 
12:49 PM
@sehe My first time doing UI code :P
 
@DeadMG Yeah, but the realization "I hate stuff" is hardly new, is it? :D
 
lol
 
cheers :)
 
it is, however, new that I hate this thing in particular
although I admit that I hate many things
 
seems like
haters gonna hate
@DeadMG your hatred is my source of amusement :P
 
12:51 PM
well
I'm too much of a perfectionist
sitting here bitching to myself about having to copy four unsigned integers
 
I just realized that all C++ programs are also C++ compilers, but with varying degrees of conformance to the standard.
 
ghosh, it's not that big of a deal is it, copying four unsigned integers
 
no
 
Off-topic question : what do you guys think about Boost::filesystem decision to use / as the path concatenation operator ? Where I work, people are divided between those who think it is a nice idea and those who believe that is a semantic violation.
 
Wait, what?
 
12:53 PM
@DeadMG Just take one at a time. No need to stress yourself over it.
 
@ereOn what else? +?
 
@daknøk: Well, I suppose yes. I don't say I disagree. I'm just raising the question.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes you tell @DeadMG that as a robot you know that copying four unsigned integers is no biggy
 
@ereOn I wouldn't do it because the little bit of syntactic sugar doesn't add much value.
 
no, the problem is that I just can't get the feel right for the level of abstraction of this class
 
12:54 PM
Paths are segmented with slashes, so I'd say that / is a good choice. + raises questions (what if there already is a slash at the end of the path?) in my opinion.
 
@daknøk: Interesting point indeed.
 
if I expose too much, then I blow my invariants
 
@daknøk but a boost::path doesn't have that problem I hope?
 
if I expose too little, I waste my life writing getters and setters
 
The thing is, you can probably use a mixup of / and + since you can concatenate boost::fs::path with strings as well
With different meanings obviously.
 
12:56 PM
@rubenvb boost::filesystem::path uses operator/ for concatenation. I'm not aware of boost::path.
 
@DeadMG split it up in multiple classes?
 
no, it's one single class
composed of two other classes
 
@DeadMG Omit the setters.
 
heh
 
@daknøk that was too long to type, you know what I mean, sheesh
 
12:56 PM
@DeadMG Get half of your life back.
 
could do, but I'm not an immutability guy, really
 
Write little classes that enforce the invariants.
 
template <typename T> struct even {
private:
    T value;
public:
    even operator=(T t) { if(t % 2 != 0) throw "odd!";  value = t; }
    // ctors too
    operator T() const { return value; }
};
struct foo { even<int> x; };
 
use templates :P
 
12:57 PM
Boost preprocessor :p
 
lol
 
Somehow macros don't sound half as bad if you do it with the boost preprocessor.
 
yeah
a property would be pretty ideal right now for me
 
I came to the conclusion that programming sucks, and if I ever have to choose a job type again, I will do something else
it's nearly impossible to write software that just works
and that pisses me off beyond belief
 
@TonyTheLion You just didn't spend enough time meditating on it first
 
1:00 PM
oh, I didn't think meditation had anything to do with software development
 
Meditation has to do with everything
 
probably why you can't write software that works :P
 
I would say it is impossible to write useful software that just works.
 
Want a counter-example?
 
I'd love one !
 
1:02 PM
writing software is tedious and annoying, if you want to get it right
 
@ereOn main = interact id
 
 
fuck
 
@RMartinhoFernandes: I don't get it.
 
1:06 PM
immutability it is
 
@ereOn It's a program that echoes its input back to standard out. It's clearly useful, and it just works.
 
@ereOn It's an implementation of an echo-like program that it alleged to be defect-free.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes: What language is that ?
 
1:08 PM
maybe I should start coding in Haskell only
 
Whenever I would come up with something that simple (and that works), then my boss would probably come up with something like "Hey ! your program is great ! But I wish it could display XML with colors. Can you change that ?"
But then the real problem is probably not "programming" itself ;)
 
XML is dumb.
 
@LucDanton It's not alleged! It is defect-free.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes 1000-page formal proof or no sex
2
har har tony stole ur thunder
 
Come on, there are four tokens there.
 
1:10 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes I'm repeating your claims. I don't know enough to comment on them.
 
There's no way I managed to slip a bug in four tokens.
 
Well, what's the kind of files that can be piped around for a usual system? With what behaviour? Etc.
 
@DeadMG What if the formal proof is shorter than 1000-pages?
 
There might be a bug in Haskell's OS interaction
 
@rubenvb That's not a bug in my program.
 
1:12 PM
which would really suck, as your error-free program really is based on a bad core
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Then you didn't sufficiently formalize it.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I don't think your boss would care ;-)
It's like MSVC template workarounds. There's no bug in your program, but that doesn't make it magically work
 
Airports are boring.
 
ohhh sex
 
What? Where?
 
1:15 PM
At the airport?
 
4 mins ago, by DeadMG
@RMartinhoFernandes 1000-page formal proof or no sex
no, not at the airport
 
he said "sex", good enough
the rest of the sentence is of no relevance
 
lol
blah blah blah blah blah sex.
 
Tony's sex-o-meter is incredibly powerful.
 
1:18 PM
lol
 
at least incredibly sensitive
 
ARGH
MSVC LINKER Y U NO COPE WITH TWO FILES OF THE SAME NAME IN DIFFERENT DIRECTORIES
 
@DeadMG WONTFIX
 
stupid archaic shitty object model
 
I think the problem is not in the linker but in MSBuild.
 
1:19 PM
anyone seen this? vimeo.com/17225471
 
@RMartinhoFernandes it's neither, exactly. The problem existed before they migrated to msbuild as well
 
@DeadMG I guess you hate it?
 
a lot
and I can't find the option to rename the object file in VS11
 
@jalf Oh well...
 
2 mins ago, by Tony The Lion
anyone seen this? http://vimeo.com/17225471
^ this is not Porn btw
 
1:23 PM
lol
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I guess you could say that with msbuild they reproduced the problem that already existed in vcbuild
 
@TonyTheLion So you classify everything into port and non-porn?
 
by choosing to put the .obj files in the same intermediate locations
 
@StackedCrooked lol
 
what I don't get is why .obj files even exist as independent entities
they're worth precisely junk
 
sbi
1:25 PM
@jalf Actually, it's more complicated than that. As I remember the story: Charles Simonyi, when working for MS research, developed a naming system where prefixes would reflect a variables semantics. (That is, width would have a different prefix than length, even though they have the same type.) Since he is Hungarian by birth, and since this system tended to produce hard to pronounce prefixes, it was soon called "Hungarian".
If you're programming in C, I understand it's pretty useful. (By the prefix you see immediately when you're mixing width and length in a calculation.)
The WinAPI subdivision of MS heard about it, misunderstood it, and developed a totally warped version of it, where the prefix denotes a variable's syntactic type. (Thus, width _ and _length, being of the same type, would have the same prefix, and mixing them wouldn't catch your eye.) That is the one everybody is enraged about, and it's the one that turned the term "Hungarian notation" into something dreaded.
 
stackoverflow.com/questions/9465698/is-c-such-a-bad-language => Never seen a question get closed that fast.
 
More than a minute. Not a record.
 
sbi
@ereOn Took more than a minute. :)
@RMartinhoFernandes Urgh!
@TonyTheLion Of course it is. With so many here wanking off on Haskell, it was only a question of time when you would join them.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes How did you find your coal anyway? Mined everywhere?
 
@LucDanton Found it while digging out my dormitory.
 
1:28 PM
Hah, I knew it. As soon as I'm done with my individual rooms, guess who shows up.
Wtf 17 -> 37 dorfs. Now I have 20 deadweights.
 
More migrants?
 
IIRC I went 7 -> 11 -> 17. I hate it when population explodes like this.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes void main() {} How many tokens are this?
 
I'll draft the sorry lot of them.
 
Is this correct English? Returns the timestamp of when the first frame was sent.
 
1:30 PM
@sbi What language is that?
 
@sbi Six.
 
@LucDanton I went 7->13->25->60.
 
under normal circumstance
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes C.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes This is painful.
 
1:30 PM
hi guys
 
@sbi Nice save.
@sbi But that's not useful.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes How so? Then assume it's C++. Six tokens, and a bug.
 
@sbi Haskell and C++ pron
ohhh
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes You didn't claim it has to be useful.
 
30 mins ago, by ereOn
I would say it is impossible to write useful software that just works.
 
1:32 PM
Woo! We ended second! csgames.org/2012/?page=scores
 
sbi
21 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
There's no way I managed to slip a bug in four tokens.
 
Grats.
@sbi Oh, that.
 
sbi
Uh, and who is implementing a thread class? (I meant to save that search someone posted yesterday. Sigh.)
@RMartinhoFernandes Have you forgotten how to follow references in the chat?
 
sbi
Anyway, why doesn't this chat plink! at me today?
@RMartinhoFernandes Poor sod!
 
1:34 PM
@sbi I just inferred what it was refering to. Wrongly.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I recommend not using nest box. Poultry for butchering is probably fine, but the numbers for eggs are just silly high right now.
 
Hey I am looking to see the source code of <iostream> I found the source code of the STL in their site but coudln't find the source code of the <iostream> and don't know how to get it from the g++ compiler if it is poosible at all
thanks :)
 
sbi
@sbi plink?
Just doesn't work. Weird.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Nope. Checked it.
 
1:37 PM
@ZoZo123 Compile a simple file with g++ -v -v -v simple.cpp. It will show tons of information, including the directories where it looks for header files.
 
sbi
Maybe my FF has gotten a whack over its head in the last two weeks. I keep being bothered by the machine wanting to update. Maybe it is time to restart. Sigh.
 
You can find iostream in one of those.
On my machine it's in /usr/include/c++/4.6.2/iostream.
 
sbi
@ZoZo123 That's because <iostream> is not part of the STL. Both are part of the standard library, though.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes -v should suffice for directory search paths
 
Not as cool.
 
1:39 PM
@sbi MS still thinks so. They have "STL Developers", in which they mean everything C++ library related.
 
sbi
@rubenvb Hey, now it plinked!? Twice! How did you do that?
 
@sbi Ah, so now it's broken for you.
 
@sbi Check my gravatar. I am the buddhabrot.
 
sbi
@rubenvb That's probably the guys who work for STL?
 
sbi
1:40 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes No, it isn't. He edited once.
@sbi plink?
 
sbi
I can't plink myself. Mhmm. I thought this used to work?
Can you guys plink yourself? Or do I misremember that?
 
@sbi You are the master
 
sbi
@ZoZo123 Of what?
 
I think I remember plinking myself
 
1:42 PM
@sbi the CPP world
 
Hmm, it doesn't even put the name in green.
 
sbi
@rubenvb What's that? To me this sounds like "Butterbrot". Which basically is a "sandwich".
 
I have a job interview Is there any collection of problems and puzzles for a cpp developers you are recommend guys?
 
sbi
@ZoZo123 Haha! Who told you such bullshit bovine excrements?
@ZoZo123 Effective C++.
 
@sbi Yeah! I mean, you don't even resemble me in the slightest.
 
sbi
1:43 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes You plinked yourself in the sandbox?
 
@sbi lol
 
@sbi Google is out of reach?
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Now you plinked me. (Twice.) Weird. Anyway, it's working now.
 
sbi
1:45 PM
@rubenvb It's mentally out of reach, anyway. I already do have a nice interpretation, eh?
sudo make me a buddhabrot!
 
@sbi I can. Using the Userscript you can simply reply to your own messages and you get plinked too
 
sbi
@sbi Let's see, @sehe...
 
@sbi ugh. Your Zen is faulty. You should meditate on that now.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes They broke self-plinking!
 
sbi
@sehe Indeed. Just mentioning your own handle doesn't do it, though.
 
1:47 PM
Why????
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Do you have a cat??
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Try more question marks
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Why what?
@sehe Insert std Pratchett quote here.
 
Hey! Pratchett complains about exclamation marks, okay?
 
@sbi > And all those exclamation marks, you notice? Five? A sure sign of someone who wears his underpants on his head
 
1:48 PM
@sbi Sorry, was switching two keys on my keyboard. I took them all out for cleaning and only now did I notice I put them back in the wrong positions.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes So what?!?!?!?!
 
My mind is not diseased.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Haha! That's certainly is the best excuse I ever heard for posting weird stuff on the web!
 
It's true!
 
sbi
@sehe I think he has said similar things on different occasions.
@RMartinhoFernandes That doesn't mean it's not hilarious!
 
1:50 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes My collegues did that to me (swapped two pairs of keys, actually). I didn't notice until after a week :)
 
sbi
Well, I gotta go back to work. I'm not a student.
3
 
Damn, it's not just two. Seems like I have absolutely no idea where the accent keys are on my keyboard... Only my muscles know.
 
user784668
Oh nice. Updating Eclipse from the OS repo broke Eclipse.
 
I'm not surprised.
 
Is it ever a problem to cram lots of dorfs inside the same barracks?
 
user784668
1:57 PM
And I'm not very happy with having Eclipse "installed" in my home directory either.
 
@LucDanton Define "lots".
 
2 squads of 10 atm.
 
Doesn't sound like much.
Unless by barracks you mean "5x5 room."
 
Works for me.
 
No wait, 5x5 = 25.
 
1:59 PM
It's ~90 tiles.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes +1
 
@sbi yeah, I know the history behind it. But the bottom line is that Microsoft promoted it, and they no longer do that :)
 
Why is register deprecated?
 
It's worthless.
 
user784668
@daknøk Because the compiler knows better.
 
user784668
2:05 PM
I know but a one example of where register makes any sense. And it involves GCC extensions.
 
@daknøk I imagine clang would have trouble adhering to it when compiling to the llvm intermediate language (which is stackbased, IIRC)
@Fanael share it! share it!
 
@sehe There's nothing to adhere to.
It's just a suggestion.
 
@daknøk what legitimate use cases existed?
 
user784668
@sehe It's not stack-based. It's variable-based (IOW, infinitely many registers).
 
@jalf these days, none.
 
2:07 PM
@daknøk so why shouldn't it be deprecated? ;)
 
@jalf no idea.
brb
@jalf it prevents you from taking the address of the variable. :P
 
user784668
@sehe register int variable asm("some-register"). Never used it though, inline assembly was always enough for me.
 
user784668
@daknøk IIRC, no, in C++ it doesn't.
 
@Fanael Yes, it does.
there's no point to register if it still allows normal memory semantics
 
@DeadMG No, it doesn't.
 
2:13 PM
well, there's no point to register anyway, so
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Bahaha I think I got military schedules pretty good. Now on inactive they will either train or pump, and when active they will patrol or defend burrows. So starts the life of warriors.
 
> A register specifier is a hint to the implementation that the variable so declared will be heavily used. [ Note: The hint can be ignored and in most implementations it will be ignored if the address of the variable is taken. This use is deprecated (see D.2). — end note ]
 
mmm…
much better (in another section, though):
> The use of the register keyword as a storage-class-specifier (7.1.1) is deprecated.
 
@daknøk That's in the D.2 referred in my quote, which comes from 7.1.1 :)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I saw that after I posted my quote :P
 
2:15 PM
gonna go pick up some beddings
 
One of the new recruits has been possessed by a strange mood. Immigrants are just here to fuck with you.
 
Is thread_local only guaranteed to work with std::thread? The standard says "thread" but that's ambiguous to me.
 
@LucDanton Erm, a completely useless fucker is about to acquire legendary ability in some skill, and you're not happy?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes He's going to require coal and diamond.
 
@daknøk It's per thread of execution, not std::thread.
So, it works with pthreads too, for example.
 
2:18 PM
Nice.
 
@LucDanton Then he dies.
Or becomes even more useless.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Whoah, now he's a legendary earring maker.
 
@LucDanton Stone earings?
 
Limonite.
 
So he's a legendary stonecrafter. Put him full-time making stone crafts and make money out of rocks.
 
2:23 PM
Encircled with bands of, and menacing with spikes of limonite, too.
@RMartinhoFernandes No, he's going to kill people and things and like it.
 
I keep rerunning XeLaTeX in the hope its error messages become more informative
alas
 
Wait, cats don't give leather. Oh well, screw the bugger.
 
@LucDanton But they used to.
 
I'm worried about my uncle, he's being forced to work with Java :(
 
@IntermediateHacker sympathy
    void sendTextTo( gizmo::Gizmo* const mainGizmo, wstring const& s )
    {
        // Note: SendMessage returns to this calling thread only after fully processed.
        wchar_t const* const    p = s.c_str();
        SendMessage( mainGizmo->apiHandle(), WM_APP, 0, reinterpret_cast<raw::LParam>( p ) );
    }
^ I think Microsoft did something remarkable when they put full thread synchronization, like an Ada randezvous (speling?) in SendMessage
Of all places.
 
2:40 PM
I think it's spelled rendezvous .
 
right, thx
 
I remember it because I lost the middle school spelling bee bec. of it. :(
 
"bee bec." = speling kompetition?
google doesn't find it
 
sbi
Hippo birdbath, @IntermediateHacker, merry conging rats and all!
3
@CheersandhthAlf Supposedly, "bec." stands for "because"?
 
@sbi oh, i was thinking maybe "basic english curriculum" or "bacon, egg & cheese"? thanks.
 
sbi
2:53 PM
@CheersandhthAlf That leaves spelling bee, a word I didn't know either.
 
@sbi thanks. :)
 
sbi
@IntermediateHacker It's the birthday of one of my daughters, so I can't forget you. :)
 
@IntermediateHacker I wonder if they would consider "rendez-vous" to be a misspelling during the contest... (the original French spelling)
 

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