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sbi
8:12 PM
VC++11 Beta on Feb 29 http://wp.me/peb5Y-mo
> [...] we’ve added full support for essentially the entire C++11 standard library [...]. We already shipped most of the C++11 stdlib in VC++ 2010, and now we’re including threads, mutexes, atomics, future, and async [...]
> [...] we’re adding C++11 stateless lambdas and scoped enumerations. On top of that, we were happy to announce this month that we’re also adding the range-based for loop, override, and final [...]
> [...] once VC++11 ships, we’re switching to a faster out-of-band release cadence so that we can deliver features more quickly than waiting for Visual Studio release schedules – especially to continue to roll out C++11 language features in batches, on a path to full conformance as soon as possible.
1 message moved to bin
 
HI
 
Could someone please look into this ? codepad.org/ecvwZywd Is this a compiler bug or am I just being lucky on gcc ?
 
@sbi I sent a mail to an address I found through Google. I hope I didn't bother some random stranger with the same name.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Gotcha!
@Mahesh I just did. So?
 
8:18 PM
@sbi Ok. Now that you have seen, say am I doing it correctly or being unlucky that it works on gcc ?
 
sbi
@Mahesh Oh, I haven't tried to understand it. I just had a look at it.
 
@Mahesh You're being unlucky.
Class member references don't extend lifetime.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Oh. Awesome.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Darn! Why did I spend time looking at it closely, when you post the answer before me?
 
8:21 PM
@sbi time waste ?
 
@CatPlusPlus I have upboat but no downpoo?
 
Do you have Symbola?
 
sbi
@KianMayne Would you mind discussing your digestive problems elsewhere?
 
@sbi Haha
@CatPlusPlus Yeah I downloaded it
 
Installed it, restarted the browser?
 
8:29 PM
@CatPlusPlus Yep
 
Then dunno.
 
You're ignoring a bug report?
You can't do that!
 
OK I'll try uninstalling the userscript then installing it again
 
Worksforme.
In both Chrome and Fx.
 
is the weak force stronger or weaker than gravity? Isn't gravity the weakest?
 
8:33 PM
@MooingDuck The weak interaction is 10^25 times stronger than gravity.
 
seems poorly named
 
It's "weak" before it's weaker than the "strong" one.
 
I was also unaware that weak and electromagnetic had been unified
so we only have three forces now?
 
@CatPlusPlus I had a different version of Symbola, link for working one
 
Well, yeah, it's the one from author's page. Which one did you use?
 
8:38 PM
wiki switches between referring to them as a two aspects of a single force, and as two seperate forces. It seems to be like the liquid vs air thing, where at certain points they become the same thing.
 
@MooingDuck Models. It's all about models.
They're the same at high energies.
A model that unifies them is more useful for, say, probably particle accelerator stuffs. A model where electromagnetism is separate is probably more useful for dealing with electronics.
 
sbi
@MooingDuck Plus the angry gorilla. You shouldn't underestimate that force.
 
@sbi That joke is a little forced.
 
@CatPlusPlus I have no idea
 
sbi
8:44 PM
@StackedCrooked Yeah, I force it onto you. So? Taps foot.
 
I laughed when I read that the neutrino thing was just a loose cable :')
 
Loose cable is like the most cliched technical error.
Second to loose screw.
 
What about loose performance?
 
sbi
@KianMayne 1.) It was suspected to very probably be a measurement error from the very beginning, even by the authors publishing the results. 2.) It's not fully asserted yet that the results were indeed wrong.
 
@sbi I thought they repeated with the full cable? and I know, just all that hype for a loose cable - as Gizmodo put it "step one of tech support: always just your cables"
 
sbi
8:48 PM
11 hours ago, by sbi
OPERA experiment gives update on neutrino time of flight measurement: http://ow.ly/9eMmX
 
@sehe Could you help me - this didn't work :/
 
sbi
@KianMayne Read this^.
 
ok
May?!
 
sbi
> The OPERA collaboration has informed its funding agencies and host laboratories that it has identified two possible effects that could have an influence on its neutrino timing measurement. These both require further tests with a short pulsed beam. If confirmed, one would increase the size of the measured effect, the other would diminish it. [...] New measurements with short pulsed beams are scheduled for May. — CERN press statement
@KianMayne Indeed^.
 
Why 2 months away?
 
8:52 PM
What? You think you can just press a button and get the neutrinos fired up?
 
sbi
@KianMayne I suppose experiments involving measuring neutrino velocity between two countries in the nanosecond scale aren't setup between breakfast and dinner.
 
You need to take them out to dinner first, say nice words, and then... No wait, that's something else.
 
Haha
 
My University wants to introduce a "What language are there besides Java" course for 4th semester Bachelors, including C++ :-)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Hit F11 to get fired up
 
8:56 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes By the way, what does "Loose change" mean? I never understood that title. I inferred it to mean "Something doesn't add up", is that right?
@sbi Somehow I grew tired of listening to Herb's voice. I guess I have watched his videos slightly too often, lately.
 
sbi
@FredOverflow That's a link to an article.
 
@sbi Yes, but tweets by Herb Sutter remind me of Herb Sutter, and simply remembered the stuff about his voice :)
 
@sbi By now, he probably hears Herb's voice in his head when he reads Herb's articles.
0
Q: Which of these java books is better for me?

user1079644I am pretty profeccient in c++, I understand the concepts and would say I have a firm grasp on the knowledge, the only thing I have not studied in great depth are classes. I have used them before, but not to the extent that I have used other abstract data types such as structs Which book would y...

I'm not sure what to say.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah, something like that. Talking about voices, I like Walter Bright's way of talking. Not sure why. Maybe because he's "grounded in reality" or however you want to call it.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes I could never understand this obsession with videos. I prefer to read an article. I can read that while commuting, or in bed, at my own pace, can easily go back and forth, scribble on the margin, or copy (from the electronic version) into this chat or emails.
> FYI, not meant to be cruel, but if you think you understand C++ fairly proficiently but don't really know much about classes, than it is truly fair to say you do not know much about C++ — Kevin Welker
2
 
9:02 PM
@sbi You can watch videos "in the background", without the picture, just listening to the guy.
 
FWIW, you can also watch videos while commuting, or in bed, at your own pace, and can go back and forth. Scribbling may not be easy, and posting here is a tad easier if it's on YouTube.
Disclaimer: I'm not that big a fan of videos for learning either.
 
Who said anything about learning? I watch videos for the simple sake of enjoyment.
 
@FredOverflow I supposed that there was some kind of study involved, if you want to scribble notes.
 
Watching GoingNative almost felt like GoingToARockConcert ;-)
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes While commuting, I'd have to watch on a 3in phone screen. The pace is set by the one who talks. And going back and forth in a video isn't half as easy as skipping over paragraphs in a piece of text.
 
9:04 PM
@FredOverflow Yeah, that was my take on it.
 
Although there probably is no rock star I would like to meet more than any of the C++ celebrities.
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Have you tried that thing called music? It's pretty cool.
 
@sbi Nice, that's what I wanted to say, but I didn't want to be cruel :) Now I can simply upvote anonymously.
 
@sbi I don't need external stimulation to "listen" to music, I have music in my head all the time, anyway.
But I don't have Bjarne in my head yet. Let's hope it stays that way :)
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Why would I do that? Usually I have way too much background noise at home.
@RMartinhoFernandes LOL!
 
9:06 PM
@sbi Of course you do, you have a child. I often hear my neighbour's kid crying, but that's not a good substitute I guess.
 
sbi
@FredOverflow I have many children. They usually do not cry, though. They just yell, slam doors, play hide and seek or catching at the top of their voices, or listen to music and stories at a level that makes me afraid the door will fall out of their room.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Some people even liked my comment, yay :)
 
The one about the Java books?
 
@daknøk Why, are you going to downvote if I say yes? ;-)
 
@FredOverflow you can't down vote comments. Just wondering which one you mean.
 
9:11 PM
Okay then, yes :-)
 
k (:
 
By the way, aren't "Which book is better" questions offtopic on SO?
 
They usually are more appropriate on Programmers, but still.
99.999% of them are too subjective, in my opinion.
 
@daknøk Because 99.999% of books aren't written by Herb Schildt? ;-)
 
9:15 PM
Who is Herb Schildt?
 
An author known for writing bad C and C++ books.
 
I see, he's also a musician and Windows programmer.
> McGraw-Hill, which published many of his books, calls him "the world's leading programming author".
 
sbi
Friends visiting me for dinner when all my kids are present are usually overwhelmed, and consider calling sick at work the next morning, just to have some time to themselves for recovering. `:)`
Topics at the dinner table tonight were the movie one of the sons has seen in school today, the one his sister saw in a cinema with her kindergarten group, the two written tests one of my daughters took in school today, the orchestra rehearsal one of her brothers had, whether neutrinos are faster than light, a recent study which had shown that women, when given testosterone, are less social and mor
 
Looking at his website, it seems that he's neither good in CSS.
 
sbi
9:18 PM
@daknøk You don't want to know.
 
@sbi lol at the "whether neutrinos are faster than light" bit, how old are your children?
@daknøk click me
2
 
LOL
 
sbi
@FredOverflow The smallest one will be about as interested in neutrino velocity as the bigger ones are interested in the movie she saw with her kindergarten group.
Tolerance is important in a big family.
 
@ScottW That's one of the many mysteries of life.
 
@ScottW why does Justin Bieber's music get published?
 
sbi
9:22 PM
> Schildt's books have a reputation for being written in a clear style, at least at first glance. Their technical accuracy has been challenged by reviewers, including ISO C committee members Peter Seebach, and Clive Feather, Steve Summit, author of the C FAQ, and numerous reviews in C Vu from the ACCU. — Wikipedia
@daknøk ^
 
I've read the article, and it seems that Herb isn't very popular among the experts.
 
Unfortunately, beginners aren't experts, so they go and buy his books.
 
Hey cool, didn't know you can press the arrow keys to edit your chat messages.
 
sbi
@daknøk Schildt's reputation in the C++ community is abysmal, and in the C community it is even worse.
@daknøk I think the newbie hints explain that.
 
Hmm, he wrote Java and C# books too.
 
9:24 PM
> Schildt's book The Art of C++ similarly features an interpreter for a language called Mini-C++. (Mini-C++ does not support the "class" keyword, although minimal and artificial support for cin and cout has been added.)
So... "C with classes" without classes? :)
 
No, C with << and >> for input and output.
 
@FredOverflow struct foo { private: /* what's the problem? */ };
 
You mean private:, right?
> He was a member of the original ANSI committee that standardized the C language in 1989, and the ANSI/ISO committees that updated that standard in 1999, and standardized C++ in 1998.
 
Schildt was on the C++ committee?!?
 
9:26 PM
[citation needed]
 
The only place where you really really need the class keyword is in template template parameters.
C++ without template template parameters doesn't sound too limited.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes A language without classes probably doesn't have a private keyword ;)
 
sbi
@FredOverflow Yeah. There's a few scalding statements about that by real committee members out there.
 
sbi
@daknøk He keeps mentioning it.
 
9:27 PM
I never knew how he looked.
 
> Herb's books have been used in education, corporate training, and individual study.
Scary.
@FredOverflow His profile now even mentions the C++11 committee!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Sounds like a great bedtime story to scare children!
 
Then they start to cry.
 
Maybe he was the reason strtok was included in C.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Why is that relevant? His books haven't been updated for C++11, have they?
 
9:29 PM
@FredOverflow Maybe he is working on it?
 
God I hope not.
 
Like some books out there are "updated for C++11" by showcasing nullptr in strtok examples (I am not making this up).
 
lol that's awesome
 
lol.
 
With auto that fails for references!
 
9:31 PM
lol
I like how decltype(x) and decltype((x)) are different.
 
(x) is an rvalue, right (maybe I'm wrong)?
 
I don't think the parenthesis affect the value category.
I would try it, but ideone doesn't seem to work right now :(
 
I'll try it locally.
 
int i;
(i) = 42;   // pretty sure that compiles
 
Yep, it does. So does (((i))).
 
9:34 PM
struct boobs { void operator()(){} }; boobs()();
7
 
oh my. mandatory star
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow IIRC, that's only different inside lambdas
 
@daknøk Anyway, decltype(ref_var) is a reference, but decltype((ref_var)) is not.
 
@FredOverflow you're (God did I do that wrong) missing some .'s there.
 
ideone, Y U offline? :(
 
Xeo
9:36 PM
I once asked on #llvm why there's a difference - "Because the sane people didn't scream loud enough" :)
 
@daknøk Not easy to add the dots in C++ :(
 
I'm inserting a partial STL vector (everything but first element) into another vector of pairs. Does this seem sensible?
vector_type new_vec;
copy(++fields.begin(), fields.end(), back_inserter(new_vec));
results.push_back(pair_type(fields.front(), new_vec));
 
What's the difference between decltype(x) and decltype((x))?
 
2 mins ago, by FredOverflow
@daknøk Anyway, decltype(ref_var) is a reference, but decltype((ref_var)) is not.
 
@robjb ++fields.begin() isn't guaranteed to compile.
 
9:38 PM
@Pubby decltype((x)) looks more like lisp.
 
@FredOverflow damned nasal demons
 
@Pubby ref_var is an identifier, while (ref_var) is not.
 
It looks more like preprocessor stuff than lisp
 
Xeo
[23:58:18] <Xeo> zygoloid: Why the hell does 'decltype(i)' differ from 'decltype((i))'
[23:58:29] <Xeo> ?
[23:58:40] <zygoloid> Xeo: because the sensible people didn't say 'no' loudly enough :)
 
vector_type new_vec;
copy(std::next(fields.begin()), fields.end(), back_inserter(new_vec));
results.push_back(pair_type(fields.front(), new_vec));
 
9:39 PM
@robjb Just replace it with fields.begin() + 1 and you're good. fields is a std::vector, right?
 
Yep
 
posted on February 23, 2012 by Herb Sutter

Three weeks ago, I announced in my GoingNative talk C++11, VC++11 and Beyond that Visual C++ 11 Beta would be available this month. With Soma’s announcement this morning, I’m now happy to add a few more details: VC++11 Beta will be available on Feb 29. It will be under a go-live license, which means that [...]

 
Didn't know about next() though, thanks @RMartinhoFernandes
 
We have a feed for Sutter's mill? Cool, didn't know that.
 
It's C++11, if that matters.
@Feeds Again? @sbi moved the previous one to the bin.
 
9:40 PM
@Xeo Who is zygoloid? Or is that a real name?
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes I was wondering, too. I think he might have fixed the typos that were in this blog posting, and the @Feeds guy picked it up again.
 
@FredOverflow seems to be a Haskell and C++ developer, according to Google.
 
@daknøk There seems to be no "Haskell bashing" scene. Why is that? Is Haskell too good? Or is it simply not known by the language trolls? :)
 
Xeo
@FredOverflow Richard Smith, one of the Clang devs, lately been working on constexpr. :)
I think Chandler mentioned him once at GN
 
@FredOverflow I guess that kind of people doesn't even try it, so they don't know what to bash.
 
9:44 PM
I wouldn't have guessed constexpr is particularly hard to implement, but apparently, it's a lot more complicated than variadic templates.
 
Xeo
Well, it took him 5 month apparently, until constexpr was set to "SVN" in the status table
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Or maybe the reasoning is that bashing Haskell wouldn't change anything, anyway? You know, because of the absence of side-effects ;-)
 
Xeo
And in any case he's a pretty knowledgeable guy about the C++ standard and stuff
 
"Haskell sucks. No side-effects? How the heck do I increment a variable then?"
 
Hello my fellow geeks
 
9:47 PM
And, I don't really think "absence of side-effects" is entirely accurate (even without considering unsafePerformIO and friends).
 
Don't talk about dirty things
 
@RMartinhoFernandes "no side-effects by default" then?
 
Xeo
While we're at Haskell, apparently there's a Haskell llvm compiler and it currently doesn't support TCO. Someone said "functional languages are only half the fun without TCO" :)
 
@Xeo What's TCO?
 
Xeo
Tail-call optimization
 
9:48 PM
Total cost of ownership?
 
Tail-call optimization.
 
@ScottW homie XD I'm looking at all the projects on "teh wiki"
 
> Every Haskell implementation will do that [TCO].
said Simon
 
@Hoxieboy don't look at mine if you don't want burning eyes.
 
Xeo
TCO - aka transforming your oh-so-pure recursive calls into dirty, non-functional loops.
 
9:49 PM
You can use trampolining instead!
 
@FredOverflow Well, I'd say that there are side-effects. But the language acknowledges their existence and lets you perform computation on them: replicateM 10 someSideEffect <- replicate a side-effect 10 times.
 
@Xeo Functional languages without the fun would just be ctional languages :(
2
 
@daknøk nah I wouldn't understand the vast scriptures of C++ code, even if I had a few (a dozen) years to study the language :P
 
Befunge is fun.
 
ΙΟW: there is a type for "side-effects" in Haskell and "side-effects" are values.
 
9:50 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes "side-effects are part of the type system"?
 
Which is awesomest.
 
I just might post a few of my python projects :)
 
I didn't.
 
9:52 PM
C&C
 
@FredOverflow I star this for being amazing
@ScottW <3 game
 
Cheech and chong?
 
oh god snarf? that thing off of thundercats? D:
 
> To spray food or programming fluids due to laughing at the wrong moment. “I was drinking coffee, and when I read your post I snarfed all over my desk.” “If I keep reading this topic, I think I'll have to snarf-proof my computer with a keyboard condom.”
 
9:55 PM
"programming fluids" lol.
 
"keyboard condom" what.
 
@CatPlusPlus its a mac thing
 
Warning: keyboard condoms will disable the std namespace.
 
@Hoxieboy like this? (can be slightly nsfw, if your co-workers have no sense of humor)
 
9:58 PM
XD
 
Xeo
Damn, another one of those "Pah, where's your undefined behaviour at now?" guys...
 
@daknøk I feel sorry for mac computers :(
 
I'm using a Mac right now actually. Never had any sex with it, though.
 

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