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12:24 AM
I always rename my binaries to r3.exe so this utility will give you the commit hash for a ren-c binary that is still available for download github.com/gchiu/rebol-misc/blob/master/what-commit.reb
I'm only keeping 5 commits up .. do we need more?
 
12:50 AM
posted on March 22, 2017 by gchiu

Limiting write to not allow object! makes sense if you're doing the open, write, close single use paradigm but reduces flexibility for working with schemes. This is to allow an object! as data, and the role of the write actor will be to make it into the form for writing to the destination.

 
1:28 AM
@Adrian just a question about the module work you did
Where does the lib/commands come from?
 
Hey Graham - lib/commands if first referenced in bot-api3.r
looks like I've got a lot of catching up to do here
are you updating the bot for ren-C or is it already converted?
 
1:54 AM
@Adrian it's running on an old version of ren-c
need to update lots of things before we can use current ren-c
 
don't recall much of that code
 
and there's the issue of not having a host to evaluate commands for us which renders her a little impotent
@Adrian just wondering where you got that code from!
the module stuff isn't well documented
 
I just read Brian H's description and experimented
 
And it seems I have to jump through hoops to get it working
 
IIRC, the current module system didn't really work quite the way I wanted it to
hoops?
 
1:57 AM
do you have some thoughts on how it should have worked?
 
well, I wanted the API module to be the only module needed when writing command modules
 
@Adrian prot-http is also a module
@Adrian @johnk says he had to import the twitter module into the main script
it seems it's harder then it should be
 
you mean he couldn't have it separate like the rest of the commands?
 
Yes
I think we need a document to describe how modules should function
so then we will know what's a bug and what's not
 
my thinking, at the time, was that the main bot file would contain definitions for words that might be useful in commands
so if twitter functionality should be usable from commands, it should be in the main file
 
2:03 AM
so in user context
 
don't recall if lib is the user context - is it?
 
I forget as well, but since we had to directly access them by path, I'd guess not
 
the other thing I wanted is that certain words in the main file which wouldn't be used from commands shouldn't be visible in command modules
I'm not sure that was something enforceable with the current module system
 
@Adrian unless you over rode the definitions
 
I did, didn't I?
 
2:11 AM
@Adrian We left all the module code to you .. I don't recall studying it too hard!
@Adrian did you know we have a build farm again?
 
nope - who set it up? Andreas is back?
 
@Adrian Brian and i set it up. Binaries are build from Travis anyway, so we upload them to S3
 
where are the links posted?
 
they're built on every commit?
 
2:16 AM
@Adrian Yes
 
or every so often
 
Well, I will have to setup my script somewhere and then travis can call it
but all the binaries are uploaded every commit and you can then guess the location if the index file hasn't been updated.
 
nice - do you track downloads on these?
 
@Adrian No, but that can be setup. Amazon has a way of collecting these statistics for you if desired
but since I'm deleting them within a day or so of being uploaded .. not sure there's much point.
 
kind of curious to see if there are lurkers following this fork - now mainline, I guess
 
2:19 AM
My script trims the binaries so we only have 5 latest commits
 
OSX not built every time or are there failures in the last few uploaded?
 
They're built each time ..but .. the OSX build takes several hours or something
Presumably travis doesn't have many OSX licenses so they get queued.
I could keep more older binaries around and just not show them .. but the download page was getting ridiculously long
and from any of the travis binaries, do <upgrade> creates a function upgrade that will check to see if there's a newer build available for download.
@Adrian and if you're out of touch, I have written a Philips Hue Emulator so I can control my PC ( and other devices ) using Amazon Echo :)
 
2:35 AM
@GrahamChiu you're setting yourself up to be hacked?
 
@Adrian Do you mean other than by CIA?
 
oh yeah - doubly hacked
it'd be easier for the CIA to just provide an API for wannabe hackers
no point in running redundant code
isn't this Hue Emulator something to do with lighting?
 
@Adrian Yes, I can use it to control my non-Philips lights. But I can have a virtual bulb that runs a script instead
 
that's cool
what kind of stuff can you do?
 
well, it's limited to whatever I can call from Rebol on my PC.
And of course you don't need real Echo to do this. You can install Amazon's Echo on a rasp pi 3 but then you'll need a keyboard, mouse, speaker, microphone to set it all up .. so is it worth the hassle?
and I guess one can use the FFI to do anything
 
3:03 AM
though I guess it would be best to spawn another rebol process to do these things so my script is not waiting
 
3:57 AM
@GrahamChiu what further plans do you have for it?
 
Not sure, but I do know I need to develop new Amazon libraries so I can do anything I want. And the why I've started work on Amazon signing.
Which has them led me to want to fix write to make it easier to customize http
 
 
2 hours later…
5:33 AM
@GrahamChiu This error means your source has whitespace at the end of a line. It will not stop a build from being made (when I wrote it, it didn't) but it is important from the point of view of maintaining standards in the source. You can find source errors in the file source-analysis.log that is created.
 
@Brett Does it tell us which file is offending?
eol-wsp %core/c-eval.c [1424]
 
@GrahamChiu Have a look, from memory it does. And it's a rebol loadable file.
Line number list in the block.
 
Ok, found it. It's a blank line with spaces in it in the c code.
 
@HostileFork As I understand it, it seems reasonable. Would save having to write an OPT.
 
@Brett looks like an editor has auto-indented
 
5:48 AM
@GrahamChiu Hmm. I wonder whether such things could be automatically cleaned.
 
@Brett Sure, the tool that does the error finding should just clean it up.
 
@GrahamChiu But when to run it?
Not going to clean up during travis builds.
 
well, whoever is running the tests ...
assuming that they run the tests before committing
 
@GrahamChiu Perhaps the simplest to include such rewrites in the build process, on the presumption that someone builds before committing.
I mean prior to the tests.
and prior to the make
 
@Brett do you mean using r3-make ?
 
5:58 AM
yep
The scripts are already parsing source to generate include files.
Sometime around then.
 
And it might be a lot of work for little gain?
 
It does cause me extra work checking for the editor not stuffing up.
So there's probably a gain in not causing further programmer effort.
The only downside is if someone would be upset that there are edits under their name that they didn't realise were made.
@HostileFork What do you think: automatic edits to remove end of line whitespace, etc when the build script runs for those of us with unruly editors?
 
6:18 AM
Maybe it's better to have a small tool that automatically removes excess white space and also detabs at the same time?
 
6:30 AM
@Brett I think the current process is fine; occasionally something slips through but it gets fixed quickly.
 
 
2 hours later…
8:30 AM
@HostileFork - is the bar! or how is the | type called, described somewhere? Some code examples of how the readability might be improved?
 
Evaluation on Rebol3 Porting Guide ("Ren-C" branch)
### Ren-C >> append [a b c] 'd | print "Hello" Hello >> append [a b c] | 'd print "Hello" ** Script error: Expression barrier hit while processing arguments >> appen...
✍ 3 comments
 
8:42 AM
Thanks. What is BLANK! mentioned in there? Is that an underscore? _ ... what does it represent?
 
@pekr It is what was previously known as NONE!, and _ is its literal form.
NONE will ultimately be retaken in the list of operations like ANY and ALL. none [1 > 2 | 3 > 4] being true
The biggest question about blanks, to me, at the moment is if they should be conditionally false. I feel like having a reified thing that is neither true nor false may make more sense, that way one would feel better about converting between blanks and voids without affecting semantics as strongly.
    rule: either empty? char [
        ; No starting escape string, use TO multi
        [a: any [to word b: [escape | skip]] to end fout]
    ][
        ; Starting escape string defined, use regular TO
        if wtype <> type-of char [char: to wtype char]
        [a: any [to char b: char [escape | blank]] to end fout]
    ]
 
Expression barrier - interesting. I thought, that the type is just kind of a comment being fully ignored wherever it appears ...
In fact, it is more strict - kind of like wrongly paired paresn/square brackets ...
In a sense, it is good, as it will push ppl to put it into a correct place, hence not only improving readability, but also assuring the argument count is correct ...
 
I like it quite a bit.
 
Just - what if there would be a function with non-fixed arity? (not sure it exists in Redbol land, but I saw some attempts)
 
There is, and it acts like the end of the input in that case.
It is not possible to see it, in an evaluative sense (including quoting). e.g. a variadic that quotes cannot have a different behavior between foo a b c | and (foo a b c)
Variadics started as a questionable feature, but the way they are working now and the uses that have been found for them have made them rather important.
 
8:57 AM
I wonder how some other code examples would look like for Bar! Will see, if in the future I would be able to sell the idea to Doc, as I can feel a bit as an idea co-author for Bar :-)
 
If he doesn't feel like doing it and leaves | as a word, it can just be |: does [], which you did point out. Which is mostly compatible.
 
Interesting - looking into a rebol oneliners, and I can't see much places, where Bar! could be usefull in some other case, than a newline separator - rebol.com/oneliners.html
 
>> print ["in Ren-C's print" | "it does that"]
in Ren-C's print
it does that
 
Is there any cost cost comparison between bar! being mostly a does [] and your implementation? And also - if it just uses does [], doesn't it unfluence parse?
What I meant with my above claim, imagine following oneliner:

subset?: func [set1 [series! bitset!] set2 [series! bitset!]][either empty? difference set1 intersect set1 set2 [true][false]]
 
@pekr Rebol's parse goes by symbol, which I'm sure Red's does as well, you can't override the meaning of | because even though it was a word it didn't fetch it. As for the performance consideration, if you have to do a WORD! look up for | and then run a function, that would be slow and annoying.
 
9:02 AM
There is no place for bar improving the code readability. If you would like to help a user to make it more readable, you would have to start to put code in parents, make it more "lispy"
 
Hm? I would say that BAR! helps with readability, at a low visual and evaluative cost.
 
The above code would be:

subset?: func [set1 [series! bitset!] set2 [series! bitset!]][either (empty? (difference set1 (intersect set1 set2))) [true][false]]
In such code example, there is no sigle place, where you could put a barrier, right?
 
@pekr I see what you mean. Right, you cannot put an expression barrier in mid-expression.
@pekr I also made it so that if you write case [false 1 | true 2] it will enforce that the | is in-between the clauses. So you couldn't say case [false | 1 true | 2].
Most helpful when you're not using blocks in the case, it's a little excessive to say case [something [whatever] | something-else [whatever]], though it is "safer" as it means you know that something is not an arity 2 function, like case [(something [whatever] something-else) [whatever]].
 
 
2 hours later…
10:54 AM
The R3-Alpha code for REWORD ("It's big, it's complex, but it works") was fairly notorious in its incomprehensibility. I've rewritten it to be clearer, shorter (when comments aren't counted), and simpler. So the next time someone mentions a reword bug, they should be able to find and fix it themselves. :-)
 
11:20 AM
in Discussion on question by giuliolunati: Rebol3 - Ren-C implementation: error "word is bound relative to context not on stack", 58 secs ago, by HostileFork
You are quite perfectly aware that nearly every feature in R3-Alpha which deviated from Rebol2 was half-baked and incomplete. Most of the rebol3-tagged questions are "hey, how do I get this Rebol2 thing to work in Rebol3?" where people have to shrug and say they don't know, because it's not implemented or broken or somesuch. And again, asking for the community to accept this as the final word on the project, because it makes your life on your project more convenient... does not fly here.
 
 
3 hours later…
2:15 PM
posted on March 22, 2017 by no-e-in

In Ren-c (Version: 2.102.0.3.40 | Platform: Windows win32-x64 | Build: 22-Mar-2017/5:49:03): >> parse "a<bbb>" [ some [remove ["<" thru ">"] | skip]] == true >> parse "<bbb>a" [ some [remove ["<" thru ">"] | skip]] == false

 
 
6 hours later…
7:49 PM
@HostileFork I didn't realise that reword was so big!
 
8:25 PM
@GrahamChiu There was a lot of ambition that it be more than just another interpolator.
 
language translation?
@rgchris latest builds now accept an object! for write
 
Mar 10 '13 at 8:54, by BrianH
>> reword/escape/only "<title>" [< "&lt;" > "&gt;"] none
== "&lt;title&gt;"
 
oh, what's cute
 
Mar 10 '13 at 8:03, by BrianH
>> reword/escape "&amp;" [amp "&"] ["&" ";"]
== "&"

>> reword/escape "&amp;amp;" [amp "&"] ["&" ";"]
== "&amp;"
 
and presumably something you'd use
 
8:31 PM
Ironically I only used it as a simple interpolator for FORM-DATE
It'd depend on efficiency for anything more.
 
and I too only used it for simple interpolation
 
Or versatility, or expression.
 
@rgchris are you looking on getting altxml and twitter working for renc?
 
Mar 9 '13 at 22:35, by BrianH
>> spec: reduce ["a" does [now/time/precise]]
== ["a" make function! [[][now/time/precise]]]

>> reword "$a" spec
== "16:35:33.21"

>> reword "$a" spec
== "16:35:35.753"
@GrahamChiu Yes, that's on my list.
 
@rgchris No pressure .. but under ren c we do have do <xml> and do <twitter> which point to your r3a code
 
8:35 PM
Yep, I know. I have limited bandwidth atm. Working to increase.
 
8:46 PM
@Adrian I've enabled logging now on the downloads so we can see what activity there is for the travis builds
 
@GrahamChiu, good - hopefully some interesting stats. Was scrolled way, way back trying to catch up to some degree. Quite some drama between @HostileFork and Nenad. Too bad - so much could be accomplished if they could see eye-to-eye.
 
@Adrian I'm blaming @Earl !
 
heh - and Carl!
 
Yeah, him too
 
my latest interest is VR - got an HTC Vive late last year. Wondering if Rebol could be useful somehow
of the two main engines people use when creating VR apps, Unity 3D and Unreal Engine, UE is C++ based, so ren-C should be able to nicely integrate with it
UE already has an 'easy' to use visual language, Blueprints, but maybe for some particular tasks a Rebol could come in handy
Actually, I think Unity is also written in C++, but the API it exposes is .Net-based so people use C# (primarily), some kind of JavaScript-like scripting language, or other .Net languages (F#, for example)
 
9:02 PM
@rgchris I changed it so that if you use a block, that block will be executed. reword "$a" [a [print "running a thing" now/time/precise]]
>> reword "$a" [a [print "running a thing" now/time/precise]]
running a thing
== "18:01:54.320827"
 
@Adrian so given up on using rebol for flow based programming?
 
@Adrian He is not interested in the existence of another project, and does not see that having a language which draws more people into the ecosystem--who might not be interested in Red alone--helps instead of hurts. An interpreted language will by definition not appeal to everyone who would be drawn to Red.
 
@HostileFork it seems he has most of the old rebol community behind him except the few here .. so I don't really understand his beef.
And the broader the ecosystem, the better from my view point
 
@GrahamChiu, not really, but I'm looking at things that could have a financial return and a Rebol-based FBP runtime isn't concrete enough to be a strong contender at the moment
 
@Adrian so technically still possible using a single rebol process?
 
9:11 PM
@HostileFork, yeah, the always-there antagonism that I sense in him, towards you, is sad to see. You've had your crazy moments too, though, which he can't forgive as I would think an understanding person should be able to.
 
Well some of us get mad when we spend a month porting their bootstrap to Rebol3 and they don't care, draw them icons and they don't care, promote their project and they don't care, sponsor their trip and they don't care... I'm looking at the list of things DocKimbel has done for me and it's really not so long.
 
@GrahamChiu, yeah, as I mentioned way back, as long as there is a flexible-enough event system you should be able to accomplish an FBP runtime
 
I was noticing a discussion of them trying to get Red into some repository, and the maintainers did not consider it open source because it required Rebol2 to build...the toolchain had to be open source too.
 
@Adrian Well, you can create an event and pass it to an event handler
Gabriele does that in the prot-http
@HostileFork so he could use r3a for that
 
@GrahamChiu could be that what exists is enough or close - it would be helpful to get events from other OS sources, though - a la NodeJS
 
9:17 PM
@GrahamChiu Could have. He also could have used some native code enhancements to speed up the compilation, based on things that were particular to what Red was doing. But to him that would be a waste of time vs. bootstrapping, which I still say is going to be a big mistake to do too soon.
 
@Adrian so we just need a way to receive other events ( like window events I guess in r3-gui ) and pass them to an event handler
@HostileFork Everyone needs to make their own mistakes
 
I was looking at some of the modern event-stream-processing stuff (Kafka, Spark) and it's crazy how much software it takes. Though I did see they made a JVM-free Scala, scala native
 
@GrahamChiu, @HostileFork was saying at one point that he would consider marying ren-C with libuv or something like it - that would be nice, but I understand that there's just a lot of stuff for just him to get done, so that's not likely coming soon
 
We probably need a new way of dealing with tcp/udp anyway
 
10:10 PM
@GrahamChiu is there a reason why the auto-builds for Windows are non-debug for 32 bit and debug for 64 bit?
 
@Adrian That's what travis script does
Does anyone still use win32?
 
donno, but why not have a non-debug as well for 64?
 
the debug versions are quite big
which explains why they're over 2Mb
There's no cost to us to have non debug builds .. if you want to alter the build script
 
@Adrian We like to make sure the release builds can compile and at least start up; we don't run them much.
And most people are on 64-bit OSes these days, so the preferred build is the debug one.
 
10:32 PM
@Adrian can this be right? AWS creates a file for each access??
Seems excessive
so my log file is actually going to be hundreds of log files where each file represents an access
>> do raw.githubusercontent.com/gchiu/rebol-misc/master/about.reb ()
Script: Untitled Version: 0.1.0 Date: 23-Mar-2017

>> about
== {Version: 2.102.0.3.40 Platform: Windows win32-x64 Build: 22-Mar-2017/5:49:03 Commit: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/commit/ed8f62f}
This was done to help with bug reporting.
 
@HostileFork I think a 64 bit default is fine, but was just wondering why not include a non-debug as well - not sure what performance difference there is between debug and non, but if it's anything significant, people who might want to use ren-C for largish text processing would likely appreciate any speed boost
@GrahamChiu, couldn't say - never really looked at stats gathering on AWS
 
11:35 PM
@ShixinZeng I'm doing a pathological test with the data stack, moving it on every DS_PUSH and trashing all the prior memory. It goes to show that it's easy to make a mistake and hold onto a pointer across pushes. :-( But at least unlike R3-Alpha where the entire system would die if you did that (any function argument passed by pointer to another routine would be dead) it's just a few places here and there.
 

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