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12:01 AM
@HostileFork Linux and OSX both have 64 bit non-debug builds created
 
12:26 AM
posted on March 22, 2017 by gchiu

Version: 2.102.0.3.40 Platform: Windows win32-x64 Build: 22-Mar-2017/5:49:03 Commit: ed8f62f ls/l .travis.yml 4250 2-Mar-2017/16:07:12.005+ file ** Script error: printf must return value (use PROC or RETURN: ) ** Where: printf either for-each ls ** Near: printf [indent 16 -8 #" " 24 #" " 6] info ?? if all [r | dir... ls/r .travis.yml 4250 2-Mar-2017/16:07:12.005+ fi

 
the travis stuff is just reading my local directory
 
 
2 hours later…
2:28 AM
@Adrian logs are up. Feel like doing some analyses? :)
 
 
1 hour later…
3:28 AM
Apparently I wrote this issue. Ah, memory—interesting thing.
 
@rgchris Is there a test suite for reword?
 
Doesn't look like it...
There's a couple of entries near the end of tests/system/gc.test.reb
And exactly the same tests in test/core-tests.r
 
so ones a GC test and the other is a test that it works?
 
3:54 AM
@GrahamChiu @rgchris it just needs its own test file, and it would be great if all those tests made it into it. I think now REWORD's implementation is transparent enough that if any of those things needed doing and aren't, they could be done by a motivated individual. :-)
 
 
2 hours later…
6:10 AM
red>> append [a b c] 'd/e/f
== [a b c d e f]
From the beginning of time, this strange decision to lose information has been challenged. I think something I've started to believe is that that it is BLOCK!s [o] should be the only odd-man out, who require an /only to add them.
The AS in Ren-C allows you to blockify things cheaply; just aliasing the underlying series. append [a b c] as block! 'd/e/f => [a b c d e f].
I've pitched some other ideas like "only merge them if the types match", but it's already clear that Rebol-the-language has a special place in its heart for BLOCK!...and if you look at the combinatorics of it, saying that blocks are the universal "container" class vs. atom is a much simpler rule.
 
 
5 hours later…
10:45 AM
@GrahamChiu Well done for all the work on these Travis builds.
I've added it to list of links on the Rebol sub-reddit
 
@draegtun It is admirable work. Though it has happened...I wish DocKimbel would realize that, not only am I not asking for this to be any kind of officiation, I'm specifically asking for the same thing Carl did... time to think. No one is pushing any of this except him. (if you read any of the controversy)
I am not asking for any advertisement, I'd like us to work in peace here, but at the same time I do not want Doc to be a jerk about the fact that we are working.
Graham is doing this largely for his own convenience, as he'd like to build a bit of an Alexa hacker community, using a single-install exe
As it stands, I am currently happy with Red as the main advertising effort for the family of languages, and not trying to compete--so that makes me very mad about the attitude Doc has taken.
I feel I have been generous with my web presence and statements on his project, and I am not sure why he would want me to be mad enough to change my view.
(again, noting the low index ranking of chat remarks, vs. blog articles, they're not in the same league.)
@draegtun Cool stuff keeps happening here, though: github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/pull/425
If anyone is confused (cc: @pekr, @rebolek), I don't want anyone taking sides. I want everyone telling Doc that he should be happy we are developing Rebol, and not undermine his own credibility by asking for Rebol to be dead. That is all.
It makes me mad, makes him look bad, and I do not want to fight. I want us both pushing the boundaries of tech and that is the end of the story. Let the users decide.
If he thinks that not fighting means he loses, then that says more about Red than about what's happening here.
I have been running Red a bit just to test some things, as a counterpoint, and it's snappy and fast. It's looking pretty good. I am not aiming at the same packaged experience, and so Graham's download page is a little bit of a "distraction", because it would be a lot of work to compete with that.
But, as long as people understand the difference between the projects, I guess that's fine...except an important person who seems to not understand--and more importantly seems not to value someone else's work--is DocKimbel.
 
 
2 hours later…
1:22 PM
in Discussion on question by giuliolunati: Rebol3 - Ren-C implementation: error "word is bound relative to context not on stack", 4 mins ago, by HostileFork
@DocKimbel Given that I'm a little bored, and that I drew the so smooth, so nice, proportions in your very nicely tuned user icon (point of fact) ... I guess I'd point out for any readers (a) that point of fact, and (b) you won't respond to me.
I think DocKimbel owes me a response.
Or, I guess, the alternative would be... instead of replying to everybody but me, he reply to nobody. (I'd accept that too.)
 
The alternative would be to brush up your AltME account where Doc wonders about Atronix 'owning' at least part of the Rebol 3 brand. He even suggested Red also perhaps should state to be Rebol 4.
But that would be putting up a "Road closed ahead" sign up imho ;-)
Perhaps we could claim the rebol/rebol keys at github HQ because there is not any administrator activity for over some years now.
 
@iArnold It's irrelevant, this is attacking ghosts, we're not pushing anything here other than trying to solve tech questions. I do not presume to speak for Carl or Rebol, I just bristle at him attacking the one question we've had in a month, when we know he wants zero. I am not asking anyone to say Ren-C is Rebol3, it's a deliberate nonsense name, we're just the only people working on it right now.
I'm fighting the spirit behind his attacks, not the facts. The facts are irrelevant as no one is really claiming any official anything.
I feel Ren-C is not ready to be compared with R3-Alpha, it's unprepared to be shown and explained to Carl, we aren't advertising...so his behavior seems all the more petty.
It should have just ended, with "I'm using this code" - "what's happening" and he invokes copyright war and licensing.
What a jerk.
As far as I can tell, he has the whole Internet, to spread his message, while in one little chat room we think about something that didn't even have a build farm until Graham made one.
And I said "er, I'm not sure if you should" but apparently now that he did, we're a target for the ire of Red.
Code aside, expired trademarks aside, if we wish to push for Rebol that's Carl's call.
But Carl has been, in a way, specific about the idea that he's kind of finished and is looking for community delegation. He gave it to Andreas. Then Andreas said... I give it back.
And if I say "I'm not taking it, I'm too controversial, I demand a community representative" we really are kind of up a creek.
Andreas would be my choice for the role, but he apparently, doesn't want it.
This is how open source gets stuck. If Carl, or Andreas would show up, and do the unpaid thankless work, we'd be moving along nicely.
As it is, the rest of us are doing unpaid thankless work "unofficially"
I am not interested in dictating terms to anyone. If I do something that sucks, I want a user reaction saying "that sucks, here's why".
 
1:41 PM
Well if you don't want to do that, you go and look for a successor. Especially when you state that you still have warm feelings for Rebol.
 
Unfortunately people aren't really interested. Which, again, points to my ire at DocKimbel and his insincere claim.
He likes the idea that the job here be really, really, hard to the point that there is no reason an alternative to Red exist.
Why's he being so mean when he is ahead?
He's got a big (well, the old Rebolers) community, no one here in his way. It's petty.
I guess, and I will reiterate, he's afraid of how good the experimental Rebol branch is getting.
Rebol will never be faster, it's not compiled, why would he even worry?
 
The project is not well documented, little explanations, no real plans of how to extend. It is and will be a one man show. No visible effort in really growing the circle of contributors . And what if that one guy is hit by a truck? No one in the universe will create Red 1.0 let alone Red 2.0
 
@iArnold Oddly, Rebol has a truck factor of 2. Not a high number. But higher than Red.
Red is at 1, Rebol is at 2, this isn't bragging-numbers territory :-)
Someone said Clojure's truck factor is 5
 
At least there are more C programmers in the world that could take up some project.
 
Well, we may not be able to measure most languages factors, but around here it is Red 1 and Rebol 2.
 
1:50 PM
If it weren't that sad I would put a smiley up here.
 
@iArnold I could tell you a lot of cool things being done here with the C, and I do install Red occasionally and there are good things being done there, but it would take a bit of a public interest wave before you'll see those numbers improve.
Because I want to bait the language experimenters, who are really smart, I want to show them something that blows their mind they can't really even figure out how it works...and when they get the punchline they go "wow".
Because DocKimbel is a bit of a kid, he's still interested in half-baked assembly languages with no real schematic, he's hoping to trick naive people into using garbage that will not compose at all, based on a few superficial factors.
So, his market is the uneducated. Kind of like how Donald Trump said he "loves the uneducated"
But the superficial factors (size of executable, packaging) are not to be underestimated. Apple made a whole company on trying to figure out packaging.
Rebol may be a medium that defies what we could call "formalism"--beyond the obvious (I mean, it may have a binding model that can't even be turned into a fun video game, at the boss levels)
But... we wouldn't be here if we didn't think there was a story in this.
When you write a nice parse rule, when you solve a problem, and it's different/better than what you imagine in other tools... you get to thinking.
2
 
 
4 hours later…
5:35 PM
@Adrian I just added win64 release build to travis
 
@ShixinZeng, thanks - I guess it'll be added to the download page after another commit, no?
I usually build from source, but I think it'll be useful for others
 
@Adrian it actually triggered a rebuild, but not sure when it will show up at the download page.
 
Where is this download page referenced? I don't see mention of it on @HostileFork 's github page for ren-C.
I suppose the text for that repo might need to be changed to reflect the fact that the scope is not just a library, but also a self-standing language + interpreter.
 
5:53 PM
posted on March 23, 2017 by Danie

My understanding is that Rebol/Services was designed to allow dialects to be interchanged on the internet. Is Rebol/Services still in use by anyone? Still usable? Any alternatives? In anyway similar to Rest?

 
6:09 PM
@HostileFork For sure! Let's go ahead.
 
@Adrian here is the download page
 
6:26 PM
Updated the downloads page
 
@ShixinZeng I had the link from @GrahamChiu already, but shouldn't it be posted somewhere very visible? Maybe it is and I'm blind, though.
 
@GrahamChiu do you have to manually update the download page every time?
 
@ShixinZeng Yes.
It could be called from r3-make but I haven't got around to doing that yet
 
I see
@Adrian We should probably mention it in README
 
Sure, and it would make sense to adjust the description of the project, as I mentioned above, at the same time.
 
6:34 PM
If you know the short hash of the build, you can deduce the download position yourself
 
@Adrian I'll leave that to @HostileFork then ;)
 
The reason it's not up yet is that it uses my experimental prot-http to delete old binaries from S3.
 
@GrahamChiu, it's not reliable enough?
 
@ShixinZeng just tried to build ren-c for Android with cmake -- got this error:
Generating src/include/sys-core.i
In file included from /home/user/B/Prog/ren-c/make/../src/include/sys-core.h:649:
In file included from /home/user/B/Prog/ren-c/make/../src/include/reb-struct.h:69:
In file included from /home/user/B/Prog/ren-c/build/ffi/ffi.h:76:
In file included from /usr/include/limits.h:123:
/usr/include/limits.h:123: error: include file 'limits.h' not found --- would you help me please?
 
@giuliolunati are you cross compiling?
 
6:36 PM
@Adrian It's a WIP. I want to move from using a custom header dialect to creating the request outside of the protocol, and feeding that directly to the protocol.
 
OK, but why does the current state prevent including a link to the downloads?
 
The problem is that AWS uses different custom headers for different services so it's becoming tricky to put this all into the prot-http
 
@ShixinZeng Yes
 
@Adrian It doesn't.
 
@giuliolunati Let me try it out on my system. It's been a while since I last built for Android
 
6:39 PM
@Adrian maybe rebolbot knows the dowload links?
 
Sure, but it should be on the project page as well.
 
@Adrian Ok feel free to make a PR :)
but as you've seen @HostileFork is ambivalent about even having the downloads page
 
There are changes that should be done to the README that only @HostileFork can make.
 
In case you missed it do <upgrade> upgrade offers to download the latest binary for your platform but won't necessarily give you the same debug or non-debug version
 
@GrahamChiu Well, he's the mad-scientist-type who doesn't care if the fruits of his labours are actually used. So don't mind him wrt this particular point.
 
6:43 PM
The logs I started collecting yesterday show that I'm the one mainly doing downloads!
 
Hasn't been a lot of publicity for them so far, so that's expected, I think.
@GrahamChiu is it random? :-)
 
@Adrian No, it gives you the latest build for your platform
 
yes, but you're saying that it could switch you from debug to non or vice-versa?
randomly?
 
@Adrian It's the order in which Travis does the builds so I guess that shouldn't change
 
maybe the debug state could be built into the binaries so that the update could get the right one
 
6:51 PM
Well, it is there sort of
You know from the rebol/build which version you have
>> rebol/build
== 23-Mar-2017/17:13:58
So, you can look up which version that is
 
doesn't say if it was debug or not, though
 
Or, you can get it from the filesize.
 
that's what I meant
 
Does the binary have anything inside it that can tell whether it's a debug version apart from the size??
 
I don't think so, but this could be added to the stats already there when you do about .
BTW, when I tried do <upgrade> upgrade on Windows, I get an access error.
```
OK, downloading ... r3-50430f1-debug.exe
** Access error: cannot open: %r3-50430f1-debug.exe reason: -3
** Where: write either either either either upgrade
** Near: file read url ??
```
Is the download done to a temp dir and then removed? I couldn't find the file after the failure.
 
7:00 PM
@Adrian are you downloading the same binary you're running?
windows won't let you overwrite it
 
I know, and was expecting that, but what happens on failure? File's deleted?
 
@Adrian I guess rebol discards it
write file read url ; there's no error checking
 
I suppose the thing to do, on Windows, is to spawn a new Rebol process to do the upgrade - kill the instance you were just in, download and rename, run latest.
 
sounds messy
but you're welcome to try
 
That's what other apps do - pointer to the upgrade code?
 
7:05 PM
that would have been done with launch/quit ... to start a batch command
 
launch/quit looks like a decent way to do it
write out a quick batch file and then call it
 
but then it starts to become platform specific
 
dems the brakes
I don't see a quitrefinement on launch, though.
 
feel free to experiment and let me know when it works for all the supported platforms
Yes, the /quit is missing .. was in r2
 
the other platforms can overwrite the binary, no?
 
7:10 PM
No idea
 
seem to recall that
but maybe I'm wrong
 
I rename all my downloads to r3.exe
so I don't have this issue anyway :)
 
I do too - the error happened when running from r3.exe.
 
but maybe you had two binaries running?
 
nope
 
7:13 PM
try it again
 
and the directory isn't special
same failure
I wonder what the -3 code is, specifically.
 
@Adrian Permissions. Usually file not found.
 
if the download is just a parallel binary written to a non-special dir, what permissions would be needed?
 
@Adrian is the download actually available?
 
So this works for you, on Windows?
seems to exist on the downloads page
 
7:19 PM
>> do <upgrade> upgrade
Script: Untitled Version: Date:
This build dated 23-Mar-2017/17:13:58
Newer build by 1 mins 30 secs is r3-50430f1-debug.exe from 23-Mar-2017/17:15:28
Download? (Y/n)
OK, downloading ... r3-50430f1-debug.exe
Finished.
 
Is there anything special about the dir you're running from?
mine happens to be on the path
 
@giuliolunati I just tried and it built fine
Could you run "make VERBOSE=1" and show me the command it uses to generate src/include/sys-core.i?
 
@Adrian nothing special
can you just try the read/write from r3
 
@GrahamChiu, figured out the problem. I started the instance by hitting the Windows key (to get the Start screen) and typing r3.
that give you a running instance that fails to get the upgrade
 
so it's a permissions issue?
 
7:23 PM
if, instead, I double-click the r3 binary in the directory, the upgrade is downloaded
 
I should change the upgrade script so it doesn't offer to download binaries newer by up to 2 minutes
 
I think when you run from the Start screen (I can, because the dir's on the path), the directory it tries to download to is somewhere you need permissions.
 
that's just the time difference between actual build and time to upload to S3
Since I rename my downloads to r3.exe I lose the commit hash
which is embedded in the filename
@HostileFork is going to embed the hash into the builds but in the meantime
>> do raw.githubusercontent.com/gchiu/rebol-misc/master/… what-commit
Script: Untitled Version: Date: 22-Mar-2017
== github.com/metaeducation/ren-c/commit/50430f1
 
do you know if there's a platform check available in Rebol?
 
rebol/platform
@draegtun Thanks. It seemed a waste that all those travis builds were being delivered to oblivion!
@Adrian the downloads link is also here now reddit.com/r/rebol
 
7:46 PM
Good to have the link in several places, but it looks like Reddit is kind of dead Rebol-wise.
 
Generating src/include/sys-core.i
tcc/tcc -E -dD -o /home/user/B/Prog/ren-c/build/src/include/sys-core.i /home/user/B/Prog/ren-c/make/../src/include/sys-core.h -I/home/user/B/Prog/ren-c/make/../src/../external/tcc/include -I/home/user/B/Prog/ren-c/build/src/include -I/home/
user/B/Prog/ren-c/make/../src/include -I/home/user/B/Prog/ren-c/make/../src/codecs -DTO_ANDROID
-DENDIAN_LITTLE -DHAS_LL_CONSTS -DTO_ANDROID_ARM
-DHAVE_LIBFFI_AVAILABLE -DFFI_BUILDING -DWITH_T
CC -I/home/user/B/Prog/ren-c/external/libffi/include -I/home/user/B/Prog/ren-c/external/libffi/s
 
What a frustrating situation Carl has created wrt Rebol. Opened it up, but can't find the time to allow the project to move forward. And he holds onto the domain as well. Aaargh!
 
@ShixinZeng is it feasible to add to the travis builds?
@Adrian And he promised he would not dump and run!
 
@Adrian To be fair, Andreas mightily screwed things also.
 
Yeah - it's almost like he's saying "If the community couldn't find it in itself to make Rebol a success (while I was running it), I'll make sure to do everything I can to frustrate anyone who wants to see it succeed as an open project."
@MarkI, yeah, Andreas too
 
7:55 PM
@giuliolunati Is your tcc a cross compiler?
 
I mean we're talking about some actions that they could literally do in under an hour.
 
@Adrian that assumes Carl is happy with the direction r3 is going
 
@GrahamChiu Are you talking about adding Android builds to travis?
 
@ShixinZeng yes
 
If he's not, why doesn't he say something?
 
7:58 PM
Well, Bo attends the same church .. he could talk to him but I haven't seen him around here for a while
Perhaps Carl doesn't even know that Andreas no longer wanted the keys to rebol/rebol
 
Yeah, likely he doesn't know.
 
@GrahamChiu Current travis build is based on make-make.r and I have never cross-compiled for Android with that. I've always been cross-compiling with cmake
 
@ShixinZeng Ok, I don't know how difficult it might be.
 
I'll see if I can change travis builds to use cmake, so that we can have ffi and user natives support
 
Great
 
8:07 PM
@HostileFork, what's the current state of help in ren-C?
should help "file" or help file result in an error?
I thought that "?" was the command that was removed/in limbo, but that help worked as before.
 
Actually I'd like to address help as well
As we move further away from r3a, the help/doc pages on rebol.com are becoming misleading
Carl and others objected to having the help documentation on github since if it were automatically generated, it would overwrite any contributions
And he wanted to keep all the documentation in one place.
Well, that is not going to work now.
If we redefine help/doc to point to a different documentation page ... how do we solve the issue of user contributions??
could an automatic update only update part of the page?
 
That would be my first thought.
 
so we put a marker on the page, and say, don't touch above this line as it's automatically generated
then the update script just replaces all the text above that line
and does a git push or whatever
And of course we can decline any PRs that alter above the line
 
not up-to-date with latest page serving abilities on GitHub
couldn't a particular topic be composed of content from individual files?
 
@Adrian you mean wiki links?
So, take rebol.com/r3/docs/functions/print.html for example. The description would be community written and the text above that would be generated from the function help
Carl talked about giving access to the WiP wiki but failed to do so.
Or perhaps he did and I've forgotten my login.
And there's also the SO documentation project .. I'm not sure how that could fit in
 
8:26 PM
@ShixinZeng I don't know -- it's in build/tcc, cmake created it
No, it isn't.
 
@giuliolunati that's the issue, you can follow the instructions listed here
 
8:57 PM
@ShixinZeng Another error
 
@giuliolunati did you start with a clean directory?
You might have some old header files somewhere
 
@ShixinZeng I did cd build; rm -r *
 
@giuliolunati interesting, could you include the whole log of "make VERBOSE=1"?
 
9:37 PM
@ShixinZeng error and log
 
How do get access to all the words inside lib?
body-of lib crashes :(
 
@GrahamChiu Words-of lib
 
@giuliolunati thanks!
 
posted on March 23, 2017 by gchiu

** Version: 2.102.0.3.40 ** Platform: Windows win32-x64 ** Build: 23-Mar-2017/17:13:58 body-of lib Assertion failed! Program: C:\Users\Graham\rebol3\r3.exe File: ../src/core/m-gc.c, Line 780 Expression: GET_SER_FLAG(a, ARRAY_FLAG_VARLIST) || GET_SER_FLAG(a, ARRAY_FLAG_VOIDS_LEGAL) This application has requested the Runtime to terminate it in an unusual way. Please c

 
10:03 PM
Are Reboltech and Rebol even registered companies anymore? This stoush about trademarks is distracting ...
reboltech.com links to a site selling electric bikes ( it should redirect to rebol.com )
Do trademarks lapse if the companies that own them are dissolved?
doc says he's not a lawyer but he sure seems to be acting like one
sec.gov/cgi-bin/… gives nothing
 
@GrahamChiu Interesting! ... ;-]
 
@giuliolunati I'm guessing that's the way to search for existing companies
 
10:19 PM
@HostileFork hi, I'm trying to read stdin from a script, but read/lines %/proc/self/fd/0 => [ ]
 
10:48 PM
4 hours ago, by Adrian
There are changes that should be done to the README that only @HostileFork can make.
@Adrian @GrahamChiu For all my griping at @DocKimbel, he does have a point--I'm not completely opposed to his point, just the spirit in which he brings it.
The project is not ready. The executable size is not where I want it, the performance is not where I want it. It's not ready to ask anyone to endorse.
I'm glad people are participating, and interested. And if people keep participating and stay interested, we may just get it to the point where I'd say "yes, this is it".
 
@HostileFork well, we are quite aware it's experimental
 
@GrahamChiu Nope. That's probably for listed sharemarket companies. In the US it looks like companies are registered by state. Rebol Technologies is in California.
Btw according to a webpage somewhere, a trademark can lapse but the registrant can continue to use it and have common law rights to it - rebol trademarks appear to be dead
 
@Brett Any court would cede to Carl as the legitimate owner of Rebol, if it went to court, regardless of trademark.
Or, given prior trademark status and continued operation of the website.
 
yes
 
this all sounds like legal talk yet none of us is a lawyer :)
 
10:54 PM
yes :-)
 
As I see it, the only person who can complain is the copyright owner, and so far he hasn't.
 
@GrahamChiu Despite my non-lawyer status, I know that not only can anyone complain, anyone can file a lawsuit.
Doesn't mean it won't be thrown out.
 
sure
I just don't see much point paying attention to things that Carl isn't complaining about. He's alive, and presumably knows all about ren-c and red and other developers like Saphirion, and Atronix
 
Though experimental, some things in Ren-C are getting darn good.
Recently some really nice stuff with left hand enfix completion vs. "tight", facilitating THEN and ELSE, hard quoting the left... remember, Boron nixed infix altogether.
But to me, Rebol being "lispy" but having infix as a feature is part of the charm, part of the "illusion" of how it can dress up its mechanic to appear like a different class of language.
@Brett please experiment with the new features, they need someone to challenge them. :-)
 

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