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12:00 AM
Context is everything. In Rebol, this idea of "no keywords" means that [print "Hello"] doesn't always mean "pass the string hello to the print function". "print" may, in some contexts stand on its own as an instruction. Then "Hello" might do something entirely different.
Each "dialect" is a "context"
"Relative Expression Based Object Language" is kind of an esoteric way of saying "Language in Which Context is Always a Factor in Interpreting The Meaning of a Series of Symbols." But I guess LWCAFITMSS was considered a lousy name. Wonder why.
 
what if we could make this line:
reword "$a $b" reduce ["a" does ["AA"] "b" [1 2 3 4]]
this instead:
reword "$a $b" ["a" does ["AA"] "b" [1 2 3 4]]
 
Well, if we have to fork, at least now we have a name. :-)
 
@BrianH Indeed—I only used 'reduce to highlight that functions worked the same way.
 
All right, bought lwcafitmss.com ... let's get started ... :-P
 
@rgchris no, I mean what if we added that feature? Your version doesn't have that yet.
 
12:05 AM
@RebolBot do do reb4.me/x/reword.r
probe reword "$a $b" ["a" [now/date] "b" [1 2 3 4]]
probe reword/only "$a $b" ["a" [now/date] "b" [1 2 3 4]]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/script-no-value.html
>> do reb4.me/x/reword.r probe reword "$a $b" ["a" [now/date] "b" [1 2 3 4]] probe reword/only "$a $b" ["a" [now/date] "b" [1 2 3 4]]
*** ERROR
** Script error: reb4.me has no value
** Where:
** Near: try to-block load join %/users/try-REBOL/data/ system/script...
 
@RebolBot do do http://reb4.me/x/reword.r
probe reword "$a $b" ["a" [now/date] "b" [1 2 3 4]]
probe reword/only "$a $b" ["a" [now/date] "b" [1 2 3 4]]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> do reb4.me/x/reword.r probe reword "$a $b" ["a" [now/date] "b" [1 2 3 4]] probe reword/only "$a $b" ["a" [now/date] "b" [1 2 3 4]]
10-Mar-2013 4
now/date 1234
== "now/date 1234"
 
@BrianH Right. Yes—I suppose it'd be convenient if you were to pregenerate your answers or use functions.
So how would you do it? ["a" does [now/date] "b" [1 2 3 4] "c" "C"]
 
@rgchris pregenerating answers will probably be the most common usage model.
 
12:10 AM
@BrianH I'll respectfully disagree, but moving on... :)
@BrianH So—how to: ["a" does [now/date] "b" uppercase pick system/locale/months now/month]
I'm curious how you apply apply/only.
 
@rgchris in the non-/only case with a block spec I would replace the foreach with a while [not empty? values] [w: first+ values set/any 'v do/next values 'values ...]
 
@HostileFork Hmm, hooks will be difficult—the <div> wrapping the script has no class/id...
 
I suppose we should set/any 'w as well. Nope, guess not.
 
@rgchris Sunanda runs it, if you don't like the shape of the site I'm sure it can be changed...
 
That method is a little slower in mezzanine, but it's fast enough in native code.
I suppose that we could also do parse values [any [set w skip set v do any-type! (...)]]
 
12:32 AM
@BrianH Is that still just for non-/only?
 
@rgchris yup. It's basically the while loop translated to parse for speed. And it would need to be translated back to while for native, but that's OK.
 
Added it to my example: reword.r—seems to work.
@RebolBot do do http://reb4.me/x/reword.r
reword "$a $b" ["a" now/date "b" ()]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> do reb4.me/x/reword.r reword "$a $b" ["a" now/date "b" ()]
== "now/date "
 
Seemed to work...
 
Remember, that's just for block specs. For object or map specs it would still foreach.
 
12:36 AM
@RebolBot do do http://reb4.me/x/reword.r
reword "$a $b" ["a" [now/date] "b" ()]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> do reb4.me/x/reword.r reword "$a $b" ["a" [now/date] "b" ()]
== "10-Mar-2013 "
 
That looks right. Unset or none values get treated as empties.
 
@RebolBot do do http://reb4.me/r/reword.r
probe reword "$a $b $c" ["a" [1 2 3 4] "b" () "c" does ["Hello"]]
probe reword/only "$a $b $c" ["a" [1 2 3 4] "b" () "c" does ["Hello"]]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
; rebol.com/r3/docs/errors/access-protocol.html
>> do reb4.me/r/reword.r probe reword "$a $b $c" ["a" [1 2 3 4] "b" () "c" does ["Hello"]] probe reword/only "$a $b $c" ["a" [1 2 3 4] "b" () "c" does ["Hello"]]
*** ERROR
** Access error: protocol error: "Server error: HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found"
 
Wait, that's not right. Unset and none values need to be treated as if they weren't even specified.
 
12:40 AM
Arg!
@RebolBot do do http://reb4.me/x/reword.r
probe reword "$a $b $c" ["a" [1 2 3 4] "b" () "c" does ["Hello"]]
probe reword/only "$a $b $c" ["a" [1 2 3 4] "b" () "c" does ["Hello"]]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> do reb4.me/x/reword.r probe reword "$a $b $c" ["a" [1 2 3 4] "b" () "c" does ["Hello"]] probe reword/only "$a $b $c" ["a" [1 2 3 4] "b" () "c" does ["Hello"]]
4  does
1234  does
== "1234  does"
 
poke vals a unless unset? :b [:b]
 
(btw, I switched 'a and 'b there as 'v and 'w weren't local)
 
Right, but you used 'b when you needed :b
 
Yes—corrected. Still have the function problem.
 
12:47 AM
Looks like parse's do doesn't work. I'll put in a ticket. Switch to while.
 
@RebolBot do do reb4.me/x/reword.r
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> do reb4.me/x/reword.r
; reword "$a" ["a" ["A" "B" "C"]]
C
; reword "$a" ["a" does ["AAA"]]
AAA
; reword/only "$a" ["a" ["A" "B" "C"]]
ABC
; reword/only "$a ($b)" ["a" does ["AAA"] "b" ()]
does ($b)
== "does ($b)"
 
	either all [block? values not only] [
		while [not tail? values] [
			a: first+ values
			set/any 'b do/next values 'values
			unless empty? a: to string! a [
				poke vals a unless unset? :b [:b]
			]
		]
	][
		foreach [w v] values [
			unless string? :w [w: to string! :w]
			unless empty? w [poke vals w unless unset? :v [:v]]
		]
	]
 
@RebolBot do do reb4.me/x/reword.r
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> do reb4.me/x/reword.r
; reword "$a" ["a" ["A" "B" "C"]]
C
; reword "$a ($b)" ["a" does ["AAA"] "b" ()]
AAA ($b)
; reword/only "$a" ["a" ["A" "B" "C"]]
ABC
; reword/only "$a ($b)" ["a" does ["AAA"] "b" ()]
does ($b)
== "does ($b)"
 
1:01 AM
Also, you don't want to to string! the key unless it's not a string already, to cut down on overhead.
 
@BrianH No worries—I'd just copied that from the existing source.
 
I know. But you took out one of the unless statements.
either all [block? values not only] [
	while [not tail? values] [
		a: first+ values
		set/any 'b do/next values 'values
		unless string? :a [a: to string! :a]
		unless empty? a [poke vals a unless unset? :b [:b]]
	]
][
	foreach [w v] values [
		unless string? :w [w: to string! :w]
		unless empty? w [poke vals w unless unset? :v [:v]]
	]
]
 
Ah, sorry...
 
It will need more work to deal with the other issues, but it's a good start. Does that behavior make sense?
 
@BrianH Yes.
@RebolBot do do reb4.me/x/reword.r
 
1:09 AM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> do reb4.me/x/reword.r
; reword "$a" ["a" ["A" "B" "C"]]
C
; reword "$a ($b)" ["a" does ["AAA"] "b" ()]
AAA ($b)
; reword/only "$a" ["a" ["A" "B" "C"]]
ABC
; reword/only "$a ($b)" ["a" does ["AAA"] "b" ()]
does ($b)
; reword "$a" context [a: ["A" "B" "C"]]
C
; reword/only "$a" ["a" ["A" "B" "C"]]
ABC
; reword/only "$a ($b)" context [a: does ["AAA"] b: none]
AAA ($b)
== "AAA ($b)"
 
OK, so now I need to add /case, binary support, and trailing escape delimiters.
And figure out how to reword the doc strings for the new behavior.
 
Good thing map! is cas...oh wait! :) :)
 
It is for binary keys.
 
What else would be different for binary?
 
Probably adding the right typespecs, making the keys binary for binary or /case, and that might be it.
Plus I'll have to reword the doc strings to be shorter because of the larger typespec.
And I'll have to write a full suite of tests once we have the right behavior, starting with the stuff from the article. And I might want to revise the article to show off the new behavior.
And I need to make a CC ticket explaining the new behavior (I'll credit you in the ticket). And backport the changes to R2/Forward. Updating a language is a lot of work sometimes :-/
Likely ticket first.
 
1:34 AM
Quite. Since I got you started this evening, I can open the ticket if you like...
 
Thanks. Put it in as a wish for a REWORD API revamp and just fill in what we've been working on, and I can fill in the rest. I am likely going to have to put the /case option first. And if you have some starting ideas on the /only docstring, please put that in too.
 
@HostileFork @Sunanda Not having much luck—seems to have saved my style sheet but is saying 'access forbidden' when I try to access it: rebol.org/library/css-dir/chrisrg-script-library.css
Defn clicked the 'Publish Publicly' button.
 
1:52 AM
Maybe it publishes it in a different location?
 
2:11 AM
That's what's referenced when I go to view a script in colour.
Published the ticket: issue.cc/r3/1990 —not sure if I did it justice, but there it is.
 
Btw, here is what I do to test doc strings: a: func load clipboard:// [] help a
You run that in the Windows version with the 80 character console and correct until it makes sense and doesn't wrap.
 
Hmm, I didn't mean to post my tests into the ticket—they were there for RebolBot purposes...
 
posted on March 09, 2013 by rgchris

[Wish] I'm looking to recode my 'form-date (http://reb4.me/r/form-date) function for R3 and am evaluating the 'reword function to this end. There are two design obstacles that I'd like to address: Case: my function uses case-dependent keys so as to be compatible with the 'strftime function from other languages. At this time, 'reword is case-equivalent. Block Arguments: Currently 'reword handl

 
2:27 AM
Don't worry, it's just a first draft. For one thing I'm changing all the doc strings.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:30 AM
@rgchris that form-date url 404s
 
It does? Is working here...
Ah—CureCode picks up the closing bracket :(
Works from the Feeds post here!
 
 
3 hours later…
6:33 AM
Just reading old archived emails from 2001 .. there was once a Rebol/Apache which was dropped in favour of the fastcgi.
Just reminded of this as @rebnoob is thinking of looking at writing a mod rebol in the comments to this stackoverflow.com/questions/15179595/…
Jeff at that time said it would take a week to port the existing Rebol apache mod to the next version of Rebol of that time.
 
 
1 hour later…
7:54 AM
@rgchris I have a working final version of reword with all of the features you requested plus all of the ones I needed as well. The code is also a little more optimized because the old one predated the parse enhancements, but overall it's more complex because it does more. However, it should be convertible to native code to deal with the overhead.
Getting binary support right was tricky, and I found a bug in assert/type.
 
what does the syntax look like now?
 
Same as before, but you don't have to reduce the values block.
 
and CaSe?
 
>> reword/escape "&amp;" [amp "&"] ["&" ";"]
== "&"

>> reword/escape "&amp;amp;" [amp "&"] ["&" ";"]
== "&amp;"
Supported. And binaries. And passing an escape block with leading and trailing delimiters.
 
so case sensitive by default now?
 
8:05 AM
With a /case option, just like a real Rebol function.
reword: func [
	"Make a string or binary based on a template and substitution values."
	source [any-string! binary!] "Template series with escape sequences"
	values [map! object! block!] "Keyword literals and value expressions"
	/case "Characters are case-sensitive"  ;!!! Note CASE is redefined in here!
	/only "Use values as-is, do not reduce the block, insert block values"
	/escape "Choose your own escape char(s) or [begin end] delimiters"
	char [char! any-string! binary! block! none!] {Default "$"}
And yes, you can have a string template that goes /into a binary or vice-versa.
 
is there a test suite?
 
It does some really interesting tricks which I hope will be easy to translate to native code.
 
what is this doing?
>> reword/escape "&amp;amp;" [amp "&"] ["&" ";"]
== "&amp;"
 
@GrahamChiu Not yet. I just got done writing the function, and it's after 3am where I am and I've been half hung over all day. So the test suite will have to wait until I get some sleep.
 
& and ; are start and end so you have "amp;amp" ?
and then that goes to "&;&" ?
 
8:14 AM
@GrahamChiu it searches for the amp keyword delimited by "&" and ";", replaces it with the replacement value, and continues after the replacement. That was demonstrating that it doesn't rehash stuff it's already replaced. One pass.
So the first 5 characters are replaced, but it continues at the sixth character.
 
ok, no recursive parsing until no further replacements occur
 
Right. Because that could never end, and because it isn't modifying so it doesn't treat the results as a template.
The template could even be read-only. For that matter so could the values.
 
and it reduces the first block for us now?
 
Just the values, not the keys. And it doesn't reduce at all if you specify /only.
And for that matter, it doesn't really reduce the values block, it does a do/next evaluation of them when building the internal map. That part is very easy to translate to native.
 
write target-url reduce [ 'POST reword  "date=$val" [ $val now/date]  ]
 
8:24 AM
write target-url reduce [ 'POST reword "date=$val" [val now/date] ]
You don't need to specify the delimiters in your values block.
 
oh yeah ..
so when is this better than using compose/deep ?
 
And word or set-word keywords are why they are just grabbed, not reduced.
@GrahamChiu when you are generating any-strings or binaries.
 
like creating large xml strings
 
Yup.
Quick question: I need to fix a bug where it needs to special-case other word types than just word, particularly set-words, to act like the corresponding words. Should I do this for all word types or just set-words? Here is an example of the bug in action:
>> reword/escape "&amp;amp;" [amp: "&"] ["&" ";"]
== "&amp;amp;"

>> reword/escape "&amp:;amp;" [amp: "&"] ["&" ";"]
== "&amp;"
 
@rebolbot do print reword "$1$5$2$5$3$5$4$6" [ 1 "this" 2 "is" 3 "a" 4 "sentence" 5 " " 6 "." ]
 
8:35 AM
If I want to do it for all word types then /a #a :a 'a a: and a will all be treated as "a".
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print reword "$1$5$2$5$3$5$4$6" [1 "this" 2 "is" 3 "a" 4 "sentence" 5 " " 6 "."]
this is a sentence.
 
Maybe I should just special-case set-words and lit-words and leave the rest alone.
 
special case set-words
you might be creating code to be executed
I'd want least surprise.
I take it this could be used for code obfuscation as well
 
@GrahamChiu I was thinking of special-casing set-words in case people think the spec block is treated like an object spec, also lit-words because people might mistakenly think that the keys are evaluated.
@GrahamChiu not really, unless they were obfuscating non-Rebol code. The entire process is optimized for generating strings and binaries.
 
I'd want keys to be exact matches .. like
>> reword/escape "&amp:;amp;" [amp: "&"] ["&" ";"]
== "&amp;"
@BrianH I was thinking of rebmu or similar games where people try to shorten their code
 
8:48 AM
The problem is that we don't want to be hostile to the people writing the specs. It might be easier to special-case a couple types than to deal with the bug reports. I already special-case non-strings by converting them to strings.
Principle of least surprise really depends on the person, but making the specs directly convertable to object or map form would be a good idea.
 
@rebolbot do print reword "<title>" [ < "&lt;" > "&gt;" ]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print reword "<title>" [< "&lt;" > "&gt;"]
== none
 
@rebolbot do print reword "$<title$>" [ < "&lt;" > "&gt;" ]
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print reword "$<title$>" [< "&lt;" > "&gt;"]
== none
 
@rebolbot do print reword/escape "<title>" [ < "&lt;" > "&gt;" ] ""
 
8:52 AM
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print reword/escape "<title>" [< "&lt;" > "&gt;"] ""
== none
 
OK, that has a different bug in my version.
>> reword/escape/only "<title>" [< "&lt;" > "&gt;"] none
== "&lt;title&gt;"
I forgot the reducing. Without /only:
>> reword/escape "<title>" [< "&lt;" > "&gt;"] none
== "truetitle>"
In my new version specifying none as an escape means "". It was a request.
 
so you might have a template where part you want to reduce and another part you don't.
 
The string is the template. The block is the replacement values. If you specify /only you can build the replacement values how you see fit. You can even have replacement functions.
 
ie. composing html for printable view
eg "<title>$title</title>"
I guess you'd do it in two passes
=> "&lt;title&gt;My title&lt;/title&gt;"
 
Sure, or you could use replacement functions, or other methods.
 
9:04 AM
@RebolBot do/2 print value? 'reword
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print value? 'reword
false
 
Not in R2/forward?
@RebolBot do/rebol2 print system/version
 
; Brought to you by: tryrebol.esperconsultancy.nl
>> print system/version
2.7.8.4.2
 
@Chandan welcome to our world!
 
@GrahamChiu I was waiting until the API was set before promoting it to release status. The old version is in R2/Forward, but hadn't made it to R2 yet at the time of 2.7.8 - same for FIND-ALL.
My efforts today are to try to get the API behavior nailed down. It wasn't my top priority, but @rgchris needed it so I went with it. Once it's nailed down I'll update the R2/Forward one to match.
 
9:12 AM
says it needs a lot of work?
They really need to fix the color formatting
 
@GrahamChiu oh yeah, it will need a complete rewrite. Similar to the one today.
@GrahamChiu It currently has to guess whether the code is in R or Rebol if you use the .r extension instead of .r3 or .r2
R is a lot more popular, so it gets chosen sometimes. However, their entire highlighter is broken.
Wait, that code is commented out, so it's highlighting correctly.
 
I've been reading some old posts on the net and there is a recurrent theme .. rebol is great, but won't use it since it was proprietary.
So rebol could have been popular .. and we could have grabbed the .r for us !
so i guess we have to be content with r1 .. rn
 
9:32 AM
posted on March 10, 2013 by BrianH

[Comment] OK, your requested features are a few of a long list from many people since I wrote that article on REWORD, and they all need implementing. So I did. Rather than make a dozen tickets, I'll just rework this one until it covers everything that has been requested. This will be the end-all be-all API revamp that will let us declare the experiment over and have it be time to make it native.

posted on March 10, 2013 by BrianH

[Comment] Here is the original text of this ticket in case someone is curious: I'm looking to recode my 'form-date (http://reb4.me/r/form-date) function for R3 and am evaluating the 'reword function to this end. There are two design obstacles that I'd like to address: Case: my function uses case-dependent keys so as to be compatible with the 'strftime function from other languages. At this ti

 
9:46 AM
@RebolBot save overview "Rebol Overview for Scientists, Programmers etc" rebol.com/docs/expert-intro.html
 
@GrahamChiu added key: overview
 
10:14 AM
posted on March 10, 2013 by BrianH

[Comment] I adjusted the summary, description, and example code. The tests need reworking into something that can be adapted for rebol-tests. I have an implementation which I could package to attach to this ticket, but just as easily could make into a pull request. Tomorrow.

posted on March 10, 2013 by rebolek

[Comment] Why not paren! instead of block! for code?

 
10:37 AM
Sorry about that -- sounds like we broke something.
I'll look into it, may take a day or so.
Thanks for the problem report.
 
 
3 hours later…
1:11 PM
Hi all, insomnia drove me to [Carl's REBOL Quick Start.] (rebol.com/docs/quick-start2.html). But when I type the practice commands into the Rebol 3 Alpha window, I get syntax errors...has Rebol changed that much? Or is it me?
 
@mmcghan The View part has changed significantly, you should better try those examples with Rebol/View 2.7.8.
 
@DocKimbel OK, going to try that now, thanks!
Can anyone recommend to me some good, current blog posts on Rebol/Red?
 
@mmcghan It's a bit of a wild-west situation right now, and it's only because of this chat room that any "new" blogging about Rebol is being done. There isn't much of a "Rebol from the ground up" that isn't about Rebol 2. Don't worry all that much about having to "un-learn" things, I've perhaps been a bit too emphatic about pushing people to Rebol 3
BrianH has smoothed over the differences that most people would bother to notice
For most practical purposes other than being able to receive bugfixes or tinker with your own "full stack", Rebol 2 is still mostly superior...a little bit slower.
But feature-wise, it's the right choice esp. if you're doing something that isn't a webserver/compiler
Or a RebolBot :-)
 
1:54 PM
This is a recurring problem. I'm not sure what we should do about it. How do we balance the suggestion of R2 vs R3, and when are we going to outreach and get all the old websites in line?
And if we could get them in line, what would we align them to say? :-/
@DocKimbel seems to sort-of want-to think that R2 is the last relevant Rebol, so it's either R2 or Red.
@BrianH thinks R3 has fixed many design issues that were wrong in R2 and, as he appears to still have hair unlike some of us, will tear it out if he is forced to go back to an R2 way of thinking.
@HostileFork believes that Red and R3 converging is the only, sane, concept: to integrate the forward thinking into a package offering a one-two punch for a many-pronged attack on all the rest of programming.
Obviously there will be limits to that, but let's accept the limits as we hit them.
This indexing compromise is looking good.
So let's do more of that.
I think my ReCon talk will be "Elephants in the Room"
 
2:55 PM
@HostileFork Technically, the last stable Rebol is 2.7.8, so people should be IMHO first be directed toward R2 for learning, then to R3 alphas if they want to test/try newer features or have a look at the sources.
 
 
3 hours later…
6:01 PM
Gotta agree with that.
 
6:14 PM
@rgchris, @GrahamChiu, I figured out how to make reword be able to use a map values spec in some circumstances without having to build another map internally. Would you like it if I pulled that code out into a reword-spec function so you can precompile your own specs? The reword function would just call that one internally otherwise, so there would be no loss either way. I was thinking that it wouldn't need to be exported by default.
 
6:39 PM
posted on March 10, 2013 by BrianH

[Comment] Because that would conflict with the inline evaluation, and wouldn't look right. To use paren you'd need to QUOTE it in the spec or use /only, so it just seems awkward. Parens are usually used for immediate evaluation, and what Chris wants is delayed and repeated evaluation (we went over this at length in SO chat, before he made this ticket for me). It's the same reason we don't use p

 
7:01 PM
@Brianh got an example?
 
@GrahamChiu I'm writing them up now, but here is some test code: reword "$a" map ["a" 1]
There are some constraints on what the spec needs to be internally in order to work, so if it doesn't meet those constraints reword just has to rebuild the spec. The change is that I now test first and don't rebuild the spec unless I need to. That code could be pulled out into its own function to make it convenient to use when your code would benefit from prebuilt specs.
It's a similar approach to what I was hoping to do with (likely add-on) conversion functions.
For reword to use a spec directly, it has to be a map, with only keys of the same datatype as we need to use, with any trailing delimiters already appended to the keys, and no unset values. No inline evaluation with maps either, so you might like to have a function like reword-spec to help you build your map.
 
7:21 PM
posted on March 10, 2013 by rebolek

[Comment] The style of DO code is that paren! is always evaluated. Block! is block!. Why can't we have it same in REWORD?

 
 
1 hour later…
8:27 PM
I am amazed how anyone can apply for a job these days if he takes the requirements in the job listing seriously. What is "high proficiency" or "expert" exactly?
fsf.org/news/… says "1+ year SQL". Ok, does that mean "do some SQL queries", "or optimize some cryptic existing queries", or "design a database" or even "be able to solve our riddle in the job interview"
 
8:45 PM
posted on March 10, 2013 by BrianH

[Comment] The style in DO code is that paren is always evaluated immediately and that if you want the evaluation deferred you either make a function or use a block which you DO later. That is why IF takes a block rather than a paren. REWORD will support both, parens being evaluated immediately before any replacements start, and blocks deferred to be executed at the point of each replacement, li

 
9:02 PM
@graph An expert is someone who answers questions on SO on the subject and gets them accepted!
 
posted on March 10, 2013 by BrianH

[Comment] If the web browser is properly written, then no. Most applications other than web browsers don't have the kinds of security constraints that web browsers require, so for other applications you would definitely be risking things like that.

 
has it always been like that? Like, 20-30 years ago? Be outstanding and demonstrating you skills all the time - to get a regular job?
 
but now you can point to a public website to confirm that is the case
 
I like SO like anyone but is it now a requirement to deal with other people's questions and solve them for them - so you can show something in a job interview? It seems the bar has been raised quite a bit
 
9:29 PM
@graph It's not my field so I don't know, but it does seem like "free work"
It hasn't always been like this, it used to be you were a warm body and needed a job. :-/
 
"The FSF is a 501(c)(3) charity that operates under a union contract which fixes the position's salary each year (currently at $57,512)."
 
It's as hard to get a job now as it was to get your first novel published, or win the lottery.
 
just an example
 
How many employees does the FSF have? 2? :-)
 
no idea, this was just an example
 
9:31 PM
<-- bitter, looking for work, harassed into coming here by @HostileFork
 
so what's your take on Rebol then :)
 
@graph I'm new to programming, and glad I'm starting with Rebol, as it does seem to be much "cleaner" than other languages (such as PHP, which has been called "A Fractal of Bad Design"). I like the fact that it's intuitive and that Carl designed it with human languages in mind. I've always been facile at picking those up, so I have some optimism when it comes to joining the "Rebolution."
 
yea you've been in contact with @HostileFork no doubt
but if you want a job in programming Rebol isn't the best start I think.
 
@graph Also, it's an adventure to me, to learn programming with naught but an arts-n-humanities background (don't tell anyone...I am @HostileFork's girlfriend :) And he's trying to save me from a life of penury!)
@graph I think Rebol/Red has to catch on because the complexity is becoming overwhelming.
 
ah that explains a lot
but Rebol doesn't HAVE to catch on, it's nice if it does, but otherwise we'll just put another abstraction layer over all of it
that's how it always goes
 
9:40 PM
@mmcghan I come from a psychology and community building background. Programming takes all kinds.
 
I have 2 years of comp sci on a top university, then got a master's in business administration lol
 
@BrianH Interesting! I'm anthropology/creative writing major...that and five bucks will get you a latte.
@graph I wish I had done something like that...
 
posted on March 10, 2013 by abolka

[Bug] BROWSE explicitly allows none! for its URL parameter. On POSIX platforms, BROWSE none crashes the interpreter. On Win32, BROWSE none behaves differently depending on what default browser is configured.

 
@mmcghan never did get that degree, went into computers instead when they bypassed that whole graduating thing and put me into graduate classes after my second programming class. Kept at the psychology research on my own. I was a pro at community building when I was a kid, just as a hobby since then.
 
well. my current pet project with which I'm teaching myself web stuff is building an educational game/simulation for topics from business education. Point is, I'm combining stuff that I have, and doing it with software since that's how you can get stuff done
so your background might not be as useless as you think @mmcghan
what is "community building" exactly @BrianH?
 
9:53 PM
@BrianH I just quit a job in which I was fundraising for nonprofits. I lost my idealism when I realized that it was driven by an attitude of "just throw money at the problem." Plus, calling donors was alienating them, rather than building any sort of coalition. It looks like the Rebol/Red effort is a real instance of community-building!
 
@graph well, I grew up in an international not-for-profit that was like a private Peace Corps without the political baggage. We went around the world and helped teach communities how to come together and improve their situations, leadership and group decision making, getting around systemic problems keeping them from improving and so on.
 
@mmcghan Shhh. I thought we were promoting the room.
 
@BrianH Sounds interesting! What group?
 
Meredith has soundly irritated me by having a proposal not only endorsed, but posted in CureCode, on DAMN DAY ONE.
I still think BrianH did that just to make me mad.
 
@HostileFork Well, it is our job to irritate each other, right? ;-)
 
9:55 PM
@mmcghan other people handled the fund raising. My job was to try to help communities help themselves when raising money wasn't even an option. Pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps, to use an old phrase.
 
Your proposal is a lie. He's only advocating it because he wants to make me mad. End of story.
 
@BrianH Sounds pretty awesome. If there is a way of integrating programming, the arts, and activism, I am all ears!
 
@mmcghan The Institute Of Cultural Affairs.
@mmcghan it's hard to separate all of those nowadays. They are often intertwined.
@HostileFork maybe she just has better ideas than you.
 
@BrianH You better be bringing brass knuckles to Montreal, other-Brian.
 
@graph I am currently engaged in the game SpaceChem, which is a fun way for people of all ages to learn how to think procedurally. It's giving me a grounding in the way programmers think, and I can see how it could spark interest in the field.
 
9:58 PM
^--- luuuuv SpaceChem
 
sounds interesting (but I dislike Chemistry so this kept me away from this game)
 
@graph No no no, play play. If you prove to me you play through the demo I buy you the full game. Deal?
Take a screenshot of reaching the trial limit, I buy you the game.
 
uhm that's like ...an expensive old piece of furniture, I'm sure it's valuable and thanks for being so generous, but it just does not fit in my appartment, yo uknwo
 
@HostileFork actually, for this kind of problem it actually helps to not have a programming background. The problem was in the conceptual model being confusing to people. People with a background in programming would either have bad assumptions based on the wrong model, or an insider perspective that can blind you to when your wrong. It needed someone with fewer preconceptions.
 
@graph You keep coming back, and I do appreciate it, we are old cranky CS/EE guys who need new blood. Well I guess this dovetails with Brian's comments, but same with SpaceChem. Play, and enjoy, and become enlightened.
I guess now we have a "gal" too.
 
10:02 PM
@graph The chemistry part is kind of irrelevant. It's fake chemistry, anyway...they don't adhere to the bonding rules and such. Think of it as a fun puzzle.
 
I keep it in mind and will give it a shot at a later point @HostileFork
 
@BrianH Yes, she was thinking linguistically, she thought "well we don't have words for negative first or second, why not riff off of the words we have"... it's almost like the invention of integers
 
I hope you haven't chosen me as a "clueless tester with not programming experience" especially after I have shown you my little project lol
 
@HostileFork Hmmm....Clash of the Brians? The universe would implode!
 
@mmcghan I was thinking of that as a comedy presentation at ReCon :)
 
10:04 PM
@graph It's cool. But, I'll tell ya, it's like... imagine trying to teach a kid about coordinate systems with flash cards. Like "name this coordinate". But then they play a game like Battleship where the understanding of the coordinate system is just something you pick up during the game... your work is a little too "flash card" and needs some "game design"
You've got an idea, you can develop it, it's money
 
@Ladislav, that ticket would require @earl to accept the existence of modules, since we don't want those exported by default, but otherwise it's not a problem.
 
But note how removed the people here are from that level of idea. :-)
We're like crazy Socratic philosophers or something.
 
posted on March 10, 2013 by abolka

[Comment] The Win32 implementation [1] seems to indicate that the original intent was to have `browse none` open an "empty" browser. (But even that doesn't work reliably on Win32 across different browsers.) Unfortunately, there seems to be no easy way to reliably do this in a cross-platform or even only cross-browser way. So it's probably best to just remove none! from BROWSE's argspec. [1] h

posted on March 10, 2013 by abolka

[Bug] On OSX, BROWSE fails to bring up a browser. (Originally reported by Marc Simpson on AltME.)

 
thanks for your feedback. Valuable since it's coming from someone who's been aroudn the block.
 
@BrianH I know you drink. We're just going to wind up in a big drunk "I love you man!" "no, I love YOU man" kind of situation. It will be awkward.
 
10:08 PM
what do you mean with "notice how removed people here are from that level of idea"?
 
@HostileFork I'll make sure the camera is packed.
 
@graph Well, you felt the need to be secretive, somewhat, about your idea. I have no intention of stealing it, I assume you know that.
But no one in this room would, either.
We're only here to help.
"Winning" is a strangely evolving concept, in terms of economics, or mindshare... it's fluid and it is slipping through the fingers of many who are trying to grab it right now.
 
I know
 
If I wanted $1m tomorrow, I will assure you, I wouldn't attack the problem with X-Y charts. :-)
Which isn't to say your idea isn't a good one. I think it looks nice.
 
everyone has ideas, no one cares about mine, if it's easy or obvious someone else is doing the same right now, if it's new or different then it's quite a task to make it work etc
 
10:13 PM
Yes, well, join us.
 
join you how?
 
RebolTech investors sunk a helluvalotofmoney because they thought Rebol was going to take over the world. The DOD or CIA or whoever made an offer, that expired it sounds like, and Carl (+ investors) said "nope"
Probably wrong answer
But we live in the world we live in
It's open source now, we need new blood, help us help you help us.
We want to kill PHP. Perl. Ruby. Python.
I'm not sure what order we should attack them, but that seems like a good order.
 
PHP should probably be first, from the little that I know.
 
At the end of the day, the one we are going to have a hard time with of course, is JAVASCRIPT
But I am willing to look the other way for Javascript, for a while, it's... harmless... mind poison, sure, but harmless.
No big deal. Let it be. Until we drop a BOMB on it. :-P
 
well
Linus didn't set out to destroy Microsoft or anyone. He just wanted this operating system to exist so he did
you have set quite an ambitious goal there :)
 
10:19 PM
@graph He's a tyrant and kind of a psychopath, he makes me look reasonable.
 
the main thing is that I am not a good enough programmer myself that I would be a supporter of a pure and perfect new style. I do quite a bit of copy&paste from forums. Also try&error. I press F5 a lot and look what happens. That's the kind of attitude that made the aforementioned programming languages (those you want to kill) the way they are, no?
 
posted on March 10, 2013 by 0branch

This commit consists of two changes, addressing Cure Code ticket #1992 ( http://curecode.org/rebol3/ticket.rsp?id=1992 ): The system(3) call in Try_Browser has been replaced with fork(2) and execlp(3). As such, the call string needn't be constructed and failed calls no longer print their output to the console. On OS X, OS_Browse only attempts to use /usr/bin/open; on other POSIX platforms,

posted on March 10, 2013 by 0branch

Following discussion on AltMe, modify browse to return R_UNSET rather than R_NONE. In addition, handle the none case correctly (return early). At present, browsing noneyields a SEGFAULT; this commit addresses Cure Code ticket #1991 ( http://curecode.org/rebol3/ticket.rsp?id=1991 ).

posted on March 10, 2013 by abolka

[Comment] Proposed fix submitted by Marc Simpson: https://github.com/rebol/r3/pull/101

 
11:10 PM
posted on March 10, 2013 by BrianH

[Comment] If we think that it is going to be a long time before we figure this out, temporarily removing the none! from the typespec may be best as a short-term solution. If there is a quick real fix then we might want to just hold off and fix it instead.

 
@HostileFork I think the most important thing we need is either fastcgi or mod Apache
You're not going to get any market/mind share if you can not run on a web server other than as CGI
 
11:31 PM
posted on March 10, 2013 by MarcS

[Comment] While not a quick real fix, I opened https://github.com/rebol/r3/pull/102 following discussion on AltMe. This addresses the SEGFAULT (returns early) and also changes the return type to R_UNSET following Brian's suggestion.

 

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