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3:19 AM
@rgchris @GrahamChiu @Brett Should PARSE support TO or THRU of BLANK!? Allowing it to opt out standalone is useful, e.g. prefix: "$" | suffix: _ | parse "$a" [prefix "a" suffix] is useful. But equal arguments can be made for why blank rules as arguments opting out and just going on to the next rule is useful also, for basically the same reasons.
e.g. I see no reason for why parse "b" [thru _ "b"] and parse "b" [_ "b"] should not be considered synonymous, since parse "ab" [thru "a" "b"] and parse "ab" ["a" "b"] are synonymous, for instance.
FWIW, Red does this (with "none!"). Also [] seems a synonym as well for opting out
Lest it be said I don't say anything good about Red, the parse implementation method is much more sensible than R3-Alpha's, which I try not to mess with if I can avoid. :-/
 
4:27 AM
If you're writing your own dialect I guess you might want to parse blank
 
@GrahamChiu Well you want to parse lots of things, like words too. That's what quoting is for.
I'm increasingly thinking that the relationship between void and BLANK! should be stronger, as opt-out. Just the reified opt-out.
This makes me happier with things like reduce [1 () 2] => [1 _ 2], they seem less of a distortion of meaning.
But it's not a decision to be taken lightly, just an emerging thought.
 
Off topic but it seems to me that the http headers dialect is the place to expand the functionality of the http protocol
It's currently written to support the single use open, read, and close paradigm
 
@GrahamChiu Seems on topic for chat, and the very issue has come up before. When I was suggesting that read some://scheme-thing would automatically translate into a "plan" like port: open some://scheme-thing | data: read port | close port | data...and the idea that it was important to pass through the single-use status would be missed by this plan was why it wasn't done so uniformly.
So I said, that was a weakness not in the idea of there being a uniform plan, but that the plan schematic wasn't clever enough. e.g. READ had the job of parameterizing OPEN in that schematic to say "I only intend to make one call", which might be generalized to saying exactly how many calls you intend to make, etc.
 
4:52 AM
@GrahamChiu ^-- you sometimes say I talk too high level, is what I am saying non-obvious?
 
5:31 AM
@rebolek DocKimbel is still at it, and I am literally confused as to why he'd want us to push this issue to StackOverflow arbitration. He'd be taking two things he doesn't care for much, StackOverflow and Rebol3, and putting it in that corner. Why? Is he ok?
I might question his engineering ability, but he seems to have a generally decent tactical mind--he told me he's had some history of playing real-time strategy games and doing well on a team. But this is nuts. One question, one tag, still fighting to the point of needing moderation? If he's acting logically, it makes me wonder if I am underestimating my position. I should buy stock in Ren-C. :-)
Anyway, I'm ready to have the meta.stackoverflow post if he would like to do that.
 
If you are new user and go to rebol.com, there is nothing about Ren-C, so he is right from that viewpoint.
"your motivations are knowably suspect" - not knowably to me, at least.
 
@rebolek Well if you take certain viewpoints, red is a color, and his language is unfinished and changes a lot, and we shouldn't talk about it or give it the dignity of a tag. :-/ It was owned by other people on GitHub before him, GitHub gave it to him because he was actually doing something with it.
 
@HostileFork well, Ren-C is also unfinished and changes way more than Red, so I don't think that is valid argument.
I think that there's nothing wrong with Ren-C having it's own tag.
 
@rebolek It's not intended to be different. Rebol 3 was released in an alpha state. I would like to help complete the outstanding issues and complete the intent of the project. As DocKimbel added user-ops to Red, I think it a bit two-faced to say that when users can make ops it somehow "soils" the vision of a completed Rebol3. The point is that Rebol 3 was not finished, it was idle for many years, and DocKimbel himself accused Carl of open sourcing it as an attempt to roadblock him.
People who know the story know his agenda. And he's not wrong to feel mad at Carl. But he's trying to turn being mad at Carl around to become a tool, knowing how Carl doesn't care about StackOverflow or GitHub or even Rebol itself at this point to try and undermine interesting work that may compete with his.
I can't tell if some of you actually aren't aware of it, and think he's somehow "standing up for Rebol3". Of course he is not.
He'd like it if anything that wasn't Red went away, and that was made clear very early on.
He's mad that there is a contingent here, which he assumed would be long dead.
And he also expected Red to be much further along than it is, but really, that's not upon any of us here...other than making me mad so I didn't feel like working on it with him.
 
5:47 AM
@HostileFork yes, R3 is in alpha and not finished. However there is lot of additions in Ren-C that are you own and not Carl's ideas, it is fork of R3, not just fixed version.
 
@rebolek Well, there are separate issues. "Is it a Rebol", "Is it a Rebol3". He made his agenda clear in saying anything that isn't Rebol(R) isn't Rebol, but I think @rgchris said it appropriately that really, once the alpha was given to the community it became our problem. And unfortunately, he delegated to Andreas, and said that whoever Andreas wanted to delegate to was his business...e.g. he became the public owner of Rebol3 at that point...
 
and disappeared.
 
I've actually put the burden away from myself. In the list of room owners for this very room in fact, DocKimbel is on it and I am not even though I started it. I deliberately do not want to govern by fiat, I want to be the best and win through merit.
And I have not asked for Ren-C to be Rebol3 official, I have a lot of metrics I want to compete with. I want size, complexity, everything to be within striking distance or better. I don't want to ask. I like things being how they are.
I want time, as Carl did, to think and work.
@rebolek And I don't think Ren-C is ready to meet that bar, there's things left to do. Look how fundamental the change to enfix just recently was. And it's great fun, I'm sorry you and I had problems to the point where you're more interested in Red, or whatever. But it is cool.
Anyway, the main thing is, this argument is not interesting to anyone on StackOverflow except the small number of people on StackOverflow using Rebol3, and there's like one Q&A a month, and this is the first question with any deviation in it. So the main point is less about this question than why DocKimbel is acting out.
Again, I'm not asking people to go around with StackOverflow questions about new features. I'm just asking DocKimbel not to be an ass if they do.
 
@HostileFork No, no, we had some differencies, but that's really not the point. I just like Red direction more. You like to play with language fundamentals, which is cool, but Red let's me getting things done, which I actually care about.
 
@rebolek Well, I am a long term thinker; I think if you lay down fundamentals then the rest can follow. If you build your house on rock vs. on salt and sand, as the old-timey people would say. It's not that I don't care about what you're interested in, I just have a different plan, and I think DocKimbel's myopia on timelines is something that will become worse, not better, because he doesn't know much about large-scale software engineering.
And bootstrapping Red would be insane, and if you think he's delayed now imagine it then.
 
6:01 AM
> bootstrapping Red would be insane


Why do you think that?
 
@rebolek Because I know the methodology used in Red is largely similar to that Carl used in R3-Alpha, and it's relatively unsophisticated, and he's deferred the deep interesting language questions "until later" including even the most basic of garbage collectors.
Also, I once participated in a bootstrapped DSL compiler project with much more funding than he ever had at Microsoft Research, and I think that while we learned a great deal from it, unless you consider yourself deliberate research it's a poor first target.
You bootstrap to learn when no one else uses you, and you want to know where you fail.
e.g. the most he will get from bootstrap is an education
He is not seeking an education, as he knows everything :-P
Hence bootstrap is bad for him (from some point of view), because he will get the education he is not looking for.
Note: I don't want him to fail on the things he can succeed at.
I'd like him to show me things. I have actually been waiting for that to happen, which hasn't so much yet.
So far the key areas that I would like to learn from Red's approach are about packaging, and seeing if anything he throws against the wall connects with an audience.
He thinks of things I don't. e.g. preprocessor, not a high priority for me.
But what if people went crazy for it? Well, that would be data. Him getting data is good.
If people go crazy for a feature advertised by Red, and it gets high ratings, I will implement it.
 
libRed is imo big
 
@pekr libRed is actually extremely (but not, I don't think, uncoincidentally) parallel to what I said when I said hostkit was garbage and needed to be replaced. He did almost the same thing, if we speak about it abstractly.
If people study the logs here, I suggested the libRed direction was the right answer to throwing out hostkit before libRed existed.
That said, I have been slow to tear out hostkit due to not wanting to break Atronix's usage in an untimely manner.
I didn't think a C interface was that important at first, but I was lobbied by earl and Robert about it, and there is a good argument for the "embedded software / Internet of things" that if you can give people a practical alternative to large systems, that it may be worth it to stay kind of low level
 
6:17 AM
posted on March 21, 2017 by Zamlox

Draw improvements by Zamlox

 
@pekr I am not anti-Red. I think we live in a better world when competing efforts are healthy and people have support. I think it would be somewhat comi-tragic if they abandon the logo for a cuttlefish, or, whatever.
I've said before that the main artifact I am interested in from Red is Red/System, to see what a systems-dialect or C replacement would look like.
There aren't that many people trying to rethink C, the economics aren't worth it, but that doesn't mean it can't be better.
 
@HostileFork you may not be antiRed, but if you look at your comments, you are certainly "antiDoc"
 
@rebolek He doesn't like me saying it, but I just think he is a "kid". Has a bit to learn. Not all of us learn at the same rate. It's not about dislike, but I think we fight because he actually thinks calendar age matters a lot when it comes to talking to who is a bit further up the mountain.
It's not about dislike, it's about asking people to respect hard problems, and respect the people working on them with you.
Smart stubborn kids, are just smart stubborn kids.
I don't feel bad about editing his video, drawing his icon, protecting his tag on StackOverflow, curating translations for his video, sponsoring his trip to Montreal for the conference, porting Red to Rebol3...
(everyone thinks a second for anything DocKimbel ever did for HostileFork...)
I must not dislike him that much. I just think that he would do better if he had more of an interest in community, consensus, and reflection.
But he is free to draw a cuttlefish for his language. Could be educational for him. Parents shouldn't control too much.
@rebolek Anyway, the only anti going on right now is on one question, in a one question per month tag (from a non-native english speaker who contributes a lot to the idea that Rebol lives at all, on modern mobile platforms, wink, @giuliolunati)... and I think if he would prefer to see zero questions a month then that says everything about how he thinks. He'd like Rebol = Red = 0 on StackOverflow.
 
6:38 AM
I didn't know that you are his parent.
@HostileFork Anyway, if you look at Gitter, you could see that Doc has lot of interest in community.
 
@rebolek He has a lot of interest in control, and his highest praise is for qtxie for thinking exactly like he does and doing what he says. Here, even though @MarkI won't write a line of code, he has argued so long that eventually he has changed the shape of the language. You think DocKimbel would want it? (Note, when Mark gets grumpy enough, I say, "well then why don't you go live with Red, huh?!", also found on divorced parenting stackexchange Q&A topics)
@rebolek He has an interest in upvotes, likes, etc. But is a generation behind knowing how to get them.
He does not actually want to engage critical thought.
 
That's really not what I am seeing on Gitter.
 
@rebolek I appreciate the idea of timely responses and engagement, and DocKimbel believes in that, so I'm not going to say that's bad. He is attentive, and explanatory, and I don't see any reason to criticize that. That's not the same as saying that you are always listening, and checking yourself.
If people question me, it keeps me up at night, and I turn it over and over until I have to force myself to a decision of if they're right or not. I don't have a "they can't be right, I'm right" switch. I wish I did. :-/
 
@HostileFork Well, if you think so... :)
 
@HostileFork no, I'd agree but don't have much to add.
 
6:52 AM
@rebolek I know so. Anyway, ask DocKimbel to take it easy, personally.
 
@HostileFork I think that everyone has distorted perception of himself, you and me included.
 
@rebolek Well, I don't think Rebol and Red need to get in fights, in any material way. That's the main point. He knows that there's only two living Rebols right now (rebol2, our work here on Rebol3), and there's only one living Red. He can't kill the rebol3 if he wanted to, and a small labeling fight trying to put Carl (who he has a huge beef with) in the drivers seat of it is disingenuous, and designed to attack the work of a living community.
His attack based on giving official naming rights is ill-advised, in a very small community of users, among whom even his fans would not think this appropriate.
I still say, the total lack of logic in it, makes me worry and question if he is as good at real-time strategy games as he said.
 
7:18 AM
Although r3n is an interesting tag to use, perhaps we can halt the tag wars by relabeling to rebol4 for the ren-c branch?
 
@GrahamChiu There is no tag war, there's hardly any questions. No one, including myself, is pushing for any official announcement of anything, or asking anyone to post questions about the uncommon subset of rebol2/rebol3/red. DocKimbel just is asking for a fight.
And by this fight request, it seems he must be unhappy about the state of Red. Who can blame him.
 
:D
 
@rgchris I forgot to mention the other day you shouldn't use wait inside the awake function but wait/only to avoid recursion
 
@rebolek Please think about Doc's motivations, and that there is empathy from those here who realize he's an entrepreneur screwed over more than once by trying to build on Carl's work. But despite how hurt he may feel over it, he shouldn't try playing politics in a very different community, which has different values or ideas, to turn around the very things that hurt him before against a superior technological effort.
The only empathy he has is from people here who would vote against him on this.
And if he's scared of how badly he's going to be beaten technologically, I'm actually kind of excited about that part. :-)
But we should enjoy it, and compete on merit, not try and say who should like what by copyright.
 
7:35 AM
You are truly a shining beacon of empathy.
2
 
@rebolek I am! But I also enjoy competition. I think that it's fun to put little robots in an arena and decide who wins, or whatever. You don't go around claiming copyright and censorship to omit people from a conversation or competition.
Meritocracy (merit, from Latin mereō "I earn" and -cracy, from Ancient Greek κράτος kratos "strength, power") is a political philosophy holding that power should be vested in individuals almost exclusively based on ability and talent. Advancement in such a system is based on performance measured through examination and/or demonstrated achievement in the field where it is implemented. == Definitions == === Early definitions === The "most common definition of meritocracy conceptualizes merit in terms of tested competency and ability, and most likely, as measured by IQ or standardized achi...
DocKimbel's tag agenda, has no purpose besides trying to remove 'rebol' from a tag when Carl hasn't said something about it, and we know he hates Carl.
He's merely using Carl because he knows Carl doesn't care about StackOverflow, GitHub, Open Source, etc. He wants to turn Carl's prior cold shoulder to him against those using the code Carl wrote.
 
> we know he hates Carl
 
I said it before. @DocKimbel was more than happy to let GitHub give him the "red" account because his efforts were deemed more meritous than whoever owned the name before. So convenient for him. And we supported him. Not much it means to him now, eh?
 
I don't know that.
 
@rebolek Computers are binary, emotions are not. We just dealt with in me vs. Doc. I can state for a fact he feels betrayed by.
I can certainly state that, he feels his investments deserved more respect, in the control of the Rebol project...and when they didn't get it, he had several responses.
His first fork was F# based.
But eventually, he decided to raise the stakes, to the "full stack" we discuss today (which is more interesting.)
I don't think a Rebol built on F# or Haskell has any point at all.
Anyway, Carl screwed him over, and this is not an uncommon story. Carl wasn't a business man and wasn't in it for business.
 
7:46 AM
@HostileFork I don't like naming fight -- I'm going to delete that question
 
He had an idea, and he was looking into it, and he wouldn't have bothered looking into it if the world around him didn't bug him so much, as it pertained to software.
@giuliolunati Well, leave it a bit, let the moderators weigh in.
If the fight is over in a day or two no one cares, which may be their take too.
@giuliolunati Odds are nothing happens or the fight comments get deleted, at which point, @DocKimbel makes his case on meta.stackoverflow.com for how we tag. If it needs to happen it should happen, don't second guess the moderators.
@giuliolunati You didn't do anything wrong, don't be bullied.
The point of meta.stackoverflow.com is to decide this, he just doesn't understand you don't fight with people on a specific question (repeatedly) like that.
I think it would be an interesting meta post, I don't know how good for Rebol and Red it is for us to move the discussion there, so I guess I'm more interested in if he wants to do that or not.
I say no. I'd think most people would say no, and he is the aggressor here. In the past, I've been crazy, but for this case, it's him.
It's not a problem for anyone and it's not worth getting the courts involved.
 
@giuliolunati pretty sure only moderators can delete questions
 
@pekr You know, how hard it was to get new users asking questions on Rebol of any kind... to get deleted... and you must want to ask Doc to not make it harder for people who are serious asking questions about actual tech issues to have a hard time. If he is doing so, he may have a short-term idea of advantage, but I'd say even if you take the pissing-HostileFork-off factor out, it's still disadvantageous for him to try and take the number of Rebol questions per month from 1 to 0.
@pekr If he thinks he's at pissing-HostileFork-off factor infinite at this point, remind him: Why Rebol, Red, and the Parse dialect are Cool, Nenad Rakocevic for O'Reilly 2013 Open Source Awards. There are higher degrees of pissing hostilefork off, and changing your logo to a cuttlefish isn't exactly helping you either.
We are at REDCON 2. Stop being counterproductive and work on your language.
And I will repeat, if @DocKimbel is scared of being technically outmaneuvered, he should be. But the right response is to ask: "how can I be as good as you", not, "can I pull out any blunt object and try and beat you with it."
All the techniques of Ren-C are open source, developed in public, and a rational competitor has nothing to fear.
 
8:09 AM
@HostileFork You seem to be very obsessed with the cuttlefish...someone (not Nenad) asked, if there should be Red's mascot. Nobody is changing Red's logo afaik.
 
@rebolek Well he never said anything about it, true. And the "full stack" is his idea, and he is the one who approved it. So to be fair, yes, random commentary is not fair game...yet.
Again, some of this is guidance/warning. I can't take any of the logo away, I made a point (predicting disagreement) of all rights to him.
That was a trust thing then, about the idea, that it was good to have someone moderating the distribution of the executables, under a brand. And I thought he was a responsible person.
It would be good -- I thought -- to have some recourse against unethical people who would brand their products trying to trade on Red's reputation.
But we see clearly, he cares not for my altruism, he wants Carl's silent language to die to simplify his concerns.
Even when the fight he picks, the idea I've written an official Rebol3, I never started. @rebolek if you look closer at the asymmetry of these personalities and projects, you shouldn't back him up.
@rebolek Think of the ingratitude of DocKimbel, my R3-port that took a month (which he despised, despite giving him an open source bootstrap), the logo design, the video editing, sponsoring his Montreal trip, and it didn't get me a seat at the table. Don't you realize why he doesn't control the narrative of Rebol? He doesn't control it because he thinks he does regardless of what you think.
He's angry that not everyone believes in Red, and Rebol3 is alive.
Nothing he ever did for me, mind you.
And now, if he feels like weighing on in the Rebol3 tag, it's only to try and use the thing he hated before against his "enemies"... Carl's silence.
@rebolek As I said, this doesn't have to turn the state of things. It was one question on one day. A lapse on his part, we could just say that.
Could he, be a respectable engineer, and compete on a technical ground?
He's going to lose on the "one guy posted a repository 5 years ago and vanished, but I'm going to out-vote the community" ground on StackOverflow. In general, most of what StackOverflow cares about is who asks questions and who is using the product. They're not a copyright office.
Also, if you think your development authority is "I'm a copyright office" then that's just a sad state of your opinion of software.
@pekr You are a reasonable person, you have DocKimbel's ear. Tell him he has more to gain for his project from a successful living Rebol3 from the next Java-on-Sandwiches explosion. We should not fight. I am trying to have a big picture thought about it, I'd ask he look for beneficial discoveries as well.
Can't we live in a world where I think he's a terrible software engineer, and be friends?
 
8:32 AM
I am not sure anymore. I once posted a link to Atronix Zoe, plus some visual R3 memory manager (don't remember what it was anymore) and got kind of smashed for that. It resulted into small infight and me leaving Red channels for more than a month, because I got really upset about such reactions ...
 
@pekr Well, he's kind of reactionary. I read Red's chat and PRs and source.
 
I was kind of suggested to pick a side, whereas I don't want to pick a side, but on the other hand I can freely admit, I like Red project.
 
I don't have a super emotional response.
My grandfather was a surgeon in WWII; I wonder, I might have been able to do it, but never trained. I have a surgical mind, but am afraid of blood.
 
are you sure do not have emotional response?
 
What I actually think is, that no side needs anything like that. Doc kind of explained it to me, and I can understand, and I think you can understand it too - from some point of view, both projects are kind of competing. This community have very little resources. It kind of reminds me of the Amiga Red vs Blue sides - both projects true to the Amiga heritage, while both taking resources and different directions
I do also remember reactions like - thank you for wasting my time, in a public google groups space, which are not imo a nice example of good communication ...
If I would be supposed to suggest a good mediator, it is imo a Gregg Irwin :-)
I would like both projects to live in parallel, with no infights and the only comparisons allowed being a technical ones. In such a sense, it does not help, if someone claims, that Red is going to be bitten by this, or that ....
Let's see what Doc has in mind for GC, bootstrapping, etc.
 
8:38 AM
@pekr I have come to think that while I have a probably perpetual dislike of Peter Wood, I don't dislike Gregg Irwinn, and it's because they are fundamentally different. I was thinking about it today. I think what I like about Gregg is, he is multi-disciplinary, knows there's no great answer, and as such he thinks every engagement is a teaching experience. He's chosen to use this as his tool, knowing some of its flaws, but he knows everything has flaws.
 
Yes, Gregg is really a wise person ...
 
He promotes Red because at heart, he is an educator, and thinks, well, what's the worst that could happen... if it's wrong you still learned. He's a serious optimist.
 
Stating all above - I don't have access to any internal Red project info anymore. The only thing I am active at, is a sporadical maintanance of the FB channel
 
@pekr Well, anyway, it's all sound and fury signifying nothing basically. If DocKimbel wants a meta post, and we filter the tags, and define fork and branch, etc. he will find himself in prickly territory--not just because he doesn't talk to SO moderators well, but because his whole mindset predates the people here. I guess that's part of why I was prickling him
I find generally, people who have 100+ things on their to-do list, who meet your thing, and it looks irrelevant and stupid, vote for the obvious answer and get on to the 99+ things they have to do.
And given my sniff test of this, I'd say DocKimbel if he really wants to make a case for an unpopular opinion, should stuff the ballot box with robovoters and such on StackOverflow, but last I checked he doesn't care much for StackOverflow or its users.
So why would he care about StackOverflow all of a sudden?
 
We should enjoy 0.6.2 is just few days away :-)
 
8:48 AM
@pekr Well, no one here is trying to take it away. I guess you say he doesn't listen, but, remind him it's better to have armed allies than enemies.
I want Red to succeed. Show me any statement from him saying similar (about my work), I'll be surprised. Not just surprised, but, eh, you're a liar.
 
I am not saying he does not listen. We talk less. I have very limited time myself, having 2 months old son, new living place and new job after 10 years :-)
 
@pekr I went on a couple dates with a cosplay girl, and got out the camera, it's fun, not exactly programming. But... computers were present. :-P
Photo editing and programming are at some levels similar, there's a working mode that is similar anyway.
@pekr Do Photoshop with pressure sensitive stylus? I hadn't until recent, with this Surface Book thing.
It's fun, like drawing for people who can't actually draw.
 
I am not much into PS, just on1 and some other effects SW. I had a Wacom tablet, but not get used to that ...
 
@pekr I have an Intuos5 but I feel the immediacy of the pen/screen is better even if the sensitivity/angle is lower.
@pekr @rebolek Well, if you can't sway Doc to believe a living Rebol is good, I'm sorry, but not surprised.
He does want it dead and to control the narrative. I want control of the narrative but I ask others for it. Doc is using the precise thing I have gone with, that I am trying things, as a weapon against it. I never claimed Rebol3 but no one else did either, the point is that there is no one else working on it.
Anyway, if one doesn't like things like enfix quoting I don't know what to tell you... we should bury progress. DocKimbel is supposed to be smart, why act like a caveman. Maybe someone murdered his wife and cut off his arm, to act so crazy.
 
9:04 AM
Were you in contact with Carl, Andreas, BrianH lately?
 
I just think there is too much talk on this channel about what Doc is supposedly doing wrong, I think that the discussion here could be more positive and technical.
 
The Fugitive is an American drama series created by Roy Huggins. It was produced by QM Productions and United Artists Television. It aired on ABC from 1963 to 1967. David Janssen stars as Richard Kimble, a physician who is falsely convicted of his wife's murder and sentenced to receive the death penalty. En route to death row, Kimble's train derails over a switch, allowing him to escape and begin a cross-country search for the real killer, a "one-armed man" (played by Bill Raisch). At the same time, Dr. Kimble is hounded by the authorities, most notably by Police Lieutenant Philip Gerard (Barry...
@rebolek I think that if we look at semiotics it's deep. You think Hostile Fork, Doc Kimbel, Hydrogen Atom, are accidents? You think Red, or Sonny, are accidents?
I vote for my icon as being the best, also I drew his.
You can identify most of what's in the chain. But what's a Kimbel?
As far as I know, DocKimbel is a composite; the character from the Fugitive (an unfairly judged person) was a doctor, named Kimbel, but then we have the second piece of the hybrid from The WatchMen, Doctor Manhattan.
None of this combines with the testimony of Nenad Rakocevic, who likes the superhero "Superman", who is, kind of a crappy superhero.
And one of the things that makes SuperMan a bad superhero, is he doesn't care about balance. If he were a D&D character he rolled a, uh, 24-sided die high score and the rest of you just lose.
Nenad is the DM who, uh, has, uh... I'm going to fail on this analogy because I don't play the game... but... he likes superman and that's the die score he thinks he rolled.
 
 
1 hour later…
10:41 AM
@pekr Remember that those days are "Red-days". The more I think about it, he may very well come from Krypton after all.
 
@iArnold Well, I didn't want to do it, but I flagged him. I wouldn't have, except he kept posting.
Regardless of opinion, the protocol on SO is that if you have a "meta" comment, you put it on meta. You don't fight with people in comments like that.
If you think it's so important, you are supposed to make a reasoned meta post about it.
 
11:16 AM
looking for the meta bash channels on SO now...
 
@HostileFork Do not fool anyone, if you didn't want to do it, you wouldn't do it.
 
@rebolek No, I tried through side channels to ask him to stop.
 
Back to r3x now, the king of all languages.
 
If he would like us to draw up a legalistic, meta stackoverflow thing, okay.
@rebolek Let's put it before the court, but do you think he will accept a StackOverflow court?
No, he doesn't like StackOverflow.
And, to be fair, I have my complaints also, but I also respect it in certain material ways he does not.
@rebolek I think I was pretty clear on the "would you please stop" after comment 2
Comment 1 was actually fine (I had no complaints)
 
@HostileFork To you, maybe. But I agree with Nenad that Ren-C is not Rebol. Red questions are also not tagged as Rebol questions.
For me, this is non-issue. It really does not deserve half a day of chat.
 
11:22 AM
@rebolek I'll star that, but I said the same.
 
There are more important things.
 
@rebolek Well, if you want to keep the peace, then just tell him to work on great technology and I will and we don't have to get in anyone's face.
The difference being he's a terrible software engineer, but, whatever. A lot of people are.
 
@HostileFork yea, ok. so you do not stop.
 
@rebolek I think he's incompetent, and I can prove what I think, and I'd rather not think about him. If he wants to get in my thoughts so much okay.
I respect people who respect hard problems. Not snake oil salesmen.
We've both kind of gotten interested in a turing-model crunching system that he doesn't understand but I do.
I perpetually check, question, and concern myself. He is a coding cowboy with no discipline or training. And if he wants us to line up our methods line for line in the evaluator, I'll make the video.
And point out every part I notice the garbage collector concerns, of which he has none, because he does not have one.
 
You remind of that joke when musician from Prague (our capital city) meets musician from Brno (our second biggest city, 3x smaller than Prague). And Brno musician says: "Do you know what they are telling about you in Brno? That you cannot play." And Prague's musician responds: "Do you know what they are telling about you in Prague? Nothing".
 
11:30 AM
110
A: C/C++ function definitions without assembly

HostileForkYou're of course right that the rubber has to meet the road at some point. But there's a lot of layers to go through before you can find that place! It sounds like you have some preconceptions based on the DOS days, and that's not too relevant anymore. There've been some good general points ma...

@rebolek The reason I am not top ranked as the "Skeptic's Guide to Red" is because, I like his idea.
I see zero good coming to the world of me deconstructing every failure of some system that has a few inspiring ideas. Why tear down something when it might teach people something?
I have thus far been mad at times, but I think, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. There is no good reason for me to attack him.
Unless he gives me one.
Anyway, we moderated him down, so it's not an issue.
Unless he wants to keep it up.
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. — Martijn Pieters ♦ 1 hour ago
 
@HostileFork and by "we" you mean you?
 
@rebolek You could flag as well as I could. The point is, the conversation he was having in comments was obviously a longer conversation than the comments on any one question deserved.
So yes. "We". I can't do that, I'm not a diamond mod.
And I am open to the meta post if he wants to have it, it's going to be weird though.
And I do think that, we should talk about it, before doing it.
e.g. fight before the best fight we have, so we don't bug everyone else.
If he wants to. I'll do it.
I would rather we don't.
 
I don't know, while you're attacking him, he's working on bugfixes.
 
I seriously cannot think why a Red guy would be concerned about correcting a rebol3 tag. Red is R2 at best, and he also would not bother if the tag had been Forth or C++ or PHP.
 
@rebolek He should be working on bugs, as he has plenty, in the meantime I'm leveling him with new things like backquoting in enfixed operators.
@iArnold Dunno if I've ever starred something from you before, but, you have a point, which is the point we've been trying to make.
 
11:40 AM
@HostileFork that's great you are working on new things.
So, does Ren-C have reactive programming already?
 
@rebolek No one has given me a sufficient "if you do this feature we will give you a big prize" metric from Red. I am semi-mercenary in this respect. I'm waiting to see if he ever connects with an audience, if so, then I'll do that. So far, I see crickets.
Hence, I study the foundations of the language and binding, just to think about it.
 
Ok.
 
@rebolek If I see a great Red success, and can't mimic it, I will send a large apology letter about how stupid I am.
It will be written in nice prismacolor markers, and very complex, but still an apology.
It might explode if you touch it, but, that's not the point, it's still an apology.
 
:)
And what are your measures of success?
 
@rebolek He's afraid of the metric of "people start using it", which is presumably why he's antsy, since he thought the guy-who-could-read-C-and-figure-it-out-but-was-crazy would have imploded by now, one way or another, but that's not success by my metrics, exactly.
To me, if I can't virtualize binding, I didn't solve the puzzle.
I have a new twist, I keep having to come up for names for things, I guess I'll call it "stack binding", and if it works I can be performance competitive with R3-alpha while providing all its missing features.
It's really tricky, and as with most of this, we're keeping it ANSI-C, e.g. no deep hocus pocus, anyone can read it.
But stack binding will only put Ren-C on the R3-alpha performance map. It doesn't provide the thing I call "virtual" binding.
Anyway, I feel good about the recent enfix backquoting, it feels not just right but "new", what other language does that?
And the decisions behind that took a long, laborious time (back me up @MarkI)
 
11:53 AM
@HostileFork I am not sure I understand that, Ren-C is not on pair with R3-aplha performance currently?
 
@rebolek I could write a large document on why it is not, yet. There are some inevitable things (e.g. R3-Alpha was incorrect), and some new features (e.g. R3-Alpha didn't know how to pay for things that were language foundational). But one of the big things that is hopefully to be resolved soon, if things work out, is that the model which enables the debugger and "specific binding" can avoid garbage collector taxation in the general case.
To my mind, it's not optimized enough yet, to really take to Carl and go "a HA it's a superset". It could be, but I don't know. It's hard to write code at this level and be so strictly measured.
Which is part of what makes DocKimbel's fight-picking more annoying. We're working here. Why can't he work and focus more on his accomplishments instead of starting some copyright war on people who weren't bugging him?
No one here is picking that fight. Just him.
I think the whole model has a long way to go before the "wine" has reached its time.
 
I don't know, but it seems that he's working pretty hard when you look at the commit history github.com/red/red/commits/master
 
@rebolek No one says he doesn't work hard, I don't see I ever said that.
 
" Why can't he work and focus more on his accomplishments..."
 
@rebolek The keyword there isn't "work" it's "focus".
And if he knew more about "focus" he'd understand that working is better than messing with the work of others.
I am challenging him, and I intend to continue to do so, through amazing software.
I signed off to him all rights to the logo, said seeya. He reacts by trying to designate an ant or a cuttlefish. If people are confused why the community split, see that.
 
12:10 PM
@HostileFork As I already said, someone else asked for Red mascot. Please, stop saying that Nenad wants to change the logo.
 
@rebolek the community split for two reasons... one (apparently the most relevant) is that Red cannot materially deliver on its promises... two is that if DocKimbel is the kind of guy who mistreats someone like me who worked hard editing videos or paying his travel fare or drawing his icon or porting his codebase to open source Rebol3... maybe some people looked at that and said "well heck, if that's not enough what can I do, if he can't make what I want"
e.g. if Doc is angry he doesn't control the Rebol narrative, maybe there's a reason, and maybe he should think about it.
But StackOverflow is a bad place to put his bad behavior on display for the jury.
 
I see the major factor in the lack of growth of this and the Red community is there is no perspective for students getting a real job programming with it. Even when only learning is the objective, there are many more practical alternatives, too little guidance and friends will quickly talk those interested back to the other side.
 
@iArnold If you look at my slides to Atronix, I said "if you aren't in it for philosophical reasons, get out" -- this isn't a business, this is a religion--in a sort of sense.
 
And indeed Red has a lot of promises, 0.6.2 was due in what august '16? It takes long because all kinds of divertions are crossing paths. I seriously seriously wonder what the investors take on this is. The investors surely cannot be happy, or are they selling bloatware and RAM and harddisk space?
 
@iArnold I am not on his case for the delays, I've not complained about it, in the last year when have I had a Red complaint. It's his business, it's his project, I look at it and try to learn from it if I can. It wasn't on my radar to mess with until this week.
 
12:16 PM
@HostileFork I know I am already spoiled rotten and really would not want any other than a Redbol language to spend my working programming days, but alas.
 
@iArnold - what do we know about "investors"? Maybe they just donated some money, as they were convinced by a presentation, that new significant player might appear....
 
I don't think I have ever promised anyone anything, outside of the casual "I'll get it fixed by tomorrow" kind of thing for @GrahamChiu.
As I said, I say I respect hard problems, I say I will try.
 
Red, is in a sense already several years behind its original schedule? But also - the scope of the project has changed significantly.
 
And yes, it is annoying that Nenad's reaction to my work is fear, not curiosity. I will build new things that will fear him more, on shorter timelines, because I can. Because I am not a klutz.
 
I did not expect to get GUI in such an early state of the product development. The GUI already seems being more consistent than whatever R2/R3 combined, maybe apart from RebGUI. I did not expect Draw to come at all ....
 
12:19 PM
His system will fail, collapse, and explode in a shimmering fire. What I do is self-checking, built on stable software engineering principles.
As the code I write expands, it checks itself more. As he writes more code, it buckles. This is the nature of the way he writes things and the way I do.
 
Should I mention - ability to compile, wrap, reactive stuff, libRed, nice console?
Just look at libRed examples - this is so cool. Everything we wished for since the Rebol slice bread. True spirit of Arexx
 
@pekr I'll wipe him off the map once there's a customer who says they have a wish for whatever it is. Ren Garden was written as a month. No one cares about cross-platform brittleware written by two guys when the foundations collapse under themselves; most people would trade a megabyte or two for beauty and a nice interface maintained by more than those two guys.
 
@HostileFork - you are a clever guy, you will surely undestand, why there might be some fear (if it is a correct word here). The community is really small, and it would help if the resources would not be split.
 
@pekr It would have helped if they never split in the first place, that was all him.
 
@pekr That console. Could have waited?
 
12:22 PM
I was going to the Montreal talk with a Red is Rebol4 slide.
 
You are of course absolutly wrong here, @HostileFork
 
No he is not
 
Doc was working on the R# language xy years ago. Then Carl was fearing it would cause a damage to RT, so released a blog post (which was later removed), that R2 will get plugins. And Doc agreed to stop his open-source R# effort.
Then, when R3 got stalled, Doc offered Carl to even travel to US, to work on R3 with him!
 
@pekr Okay now you're supporting a different argument of mine. :-)
@iArnold You get your first star and your second in the same day, don't gloat.
 
Not that Nenad started Red, that was logical, but marking R3 sympathies as unwanted
that split up the two.
 
12:24 PM
I am not sure he received any reply. Hence he started with the Red project. Back at that time, R3 was stalled and surely not open sourced. Those are the facts ... remember, I am the Amiga/Rebol chronicle :-)
 
@HostileFork where do you see that fear? Is that one tag problem sign of "fear"?
 
You and I got the backfire of that anti-R3 sentiment Pekr.
 
@pekr Look, I don't want Nenad to get discouraged. I have really high blood pressure and I felt bad today, just having the fight, and if something happened and I dunno...I died...I guess I'd hope he'd have felt bad about it. We shouldn't fight at all. We shouldn't be causing health problems for each other, even if we might die anyhow.
 
@HostileFork Ren Garden was PITA to compile, TBH.
 
@rebolek Mostly, linking to Qt is a PITA to compile, you won't hear me arguing about that. Ren Garden is fairly low dependencies as a Qt app, it's not somehow that weird. You'd have the same challenge with a calendar app
Again, I am not anti-Red, I had a stressful day, I'm not feeling well, I wish people would stop :-(
 
12:28 PM
@HostileFork if that app was Qt based, than yes. But if you write Calendar in Red, all you need is just Red.
 
We can build great software with no fights, I think.
 
@iArnold yes, Doc does not like R3 mentions on Red channels. What he is really right about is, that any split of resources does not help Red to grow more faster. My position is, that I don't feel the need to attack anything R3 related myself.
@HostileFork - aren't you just too young to have a high blood pressure? :-)
 
@pekr I want both to become a big success!
 
@pekr Runs in the family, and it's very high, and I might flop over any minute especially with arguing. Don't tell DocKimbel, he might use that against me.
 
:-)
I had 160/110, but when I slowed down a bit, am down to 130/90 .... still not optimal ...
 
12:30 PM
@pekr I'm higher, always over 170
 
What will help Red to grow faster is get the foundation done sooner than later and work on growing community not chasing contributors away.
@HostileFork Watch the salt :-/
 
Salt and alcohol - too much beer here, now highly reduced :-)
hmm, reduce ... we should rename our languages to Reduce
 
@pekr Well it's late in the game to make a mutual plan, but I am not anywhere near as mad as I used to be. The only reason we're fighting now is a small, provincial question, and he was shot down which... well I'd be lying if I didn't say I appreciate it when moderation rules in your favor.
 
ok, so it got modded down. Now we can move on ...
3
 
In my ideal world, we go back to work, and don't do the big meta thing.
 
12:34 PM
@pekr Beer's hard to reduce here with all the new breweries ;)
 
Yeah, that would be fine by me, we go back to what we were doing already.
If he's cool getting modded down and that's enough to put us all back to work, then great.
 
Martijn Pieters sounds Dutch, I would have moderated his face if he had decided otherwise LoL!
 
@iArnold I voted for him in the mod elections, though I did ask him a pointed question.
He's decided against me before.
Eh, he was probably right.
Anyway, what DocKimbel should be more interested in is all us little busy bees untagging red from the "my spreadsheet excel macro has a red underline" and working for him.
But he's always had an "appreciation deficit"
We, the people who believe he'll do great things, are laying some bricks and giving him the chance. I don't see how mucking with the rebol tag will get him there.
Also, he'll lose. He got a little slap, if he wants a bigger slap, he may ask for one.
 
We just know how to draw his attention :D
 
@iArnold I feel it's more like "keeping me from doing productive work", I was actually doing some cool things.
Whining on chat is not as cool.
Anyway, I think it would be foolish for us to imagine a world where DocKimbel came back. He's still a moderator of this room. He's still welcome. And I am in a different mindset personally, but I don't think that matters so much, in the relationship.
I think some people have to just agree to disagree, and not get in each other's way, which I thought was the agreement.
I decided to lead by example., hence the product.
And I am much less confident about it than he is in his. I can list a billion defects, and I have a debug build.
 
12:50 PM
Sometimes confidence in own abilities is a must or you might as well not start at all.
I think I'll go back and start on some cool things now. Feeling confident ;-)
 
@iArnold Kanye West said, basically, he created a cartoon character, as a reaction to everyone who told him how much he sucked.
He became the unassailable, to do what he wanted to do that day, to ignore criticism.
Note also, DocKimbel's obsession with SuperMan, who is provably the most poorly defined superhero :-P
The problem with superman as a superhero is, the (canon) comics never really explained what he could or could not do. He invented powers on the fly. It doesn't work in an ecology of heroes. :-P
Really, all superheroes fail on the credibility level, due to the "not real" thing, so it's not totally fair to pick on SuperMan vs BatMan etc.
@rebolek Everyone sucks in their own way ;-P
 
@HostileFork Yes.
 
1:43 PM
@rebolek Please tell DocKimbel he is welcome to discuss language issues and be part of the community, he still moderates this room, it's a gesture of acceptance. He can't win every battle, he just can't win them all.
If he is getting a small sense of the idea that one person doesn't rule the world, yet, then it might be a good time to come and talk about i.
 
2:30 PM
@HostileFork Thanks for the mentions (if a little backhanded :) and yes, I support your initiatives, even when I disagree.
 
@MarkI Well, you have shown your demonstrations of understanding of C, I know you can do more than argue in chat, but even without PRs you have changed the game.
 
@HostileFork Wow. Thanks again.
 
@MarkI I don't like to admit it, given how useless you are. :-P
 
@HostileFork :)
 
If no one talked to me here, I'd just be talking to myself, and it would be an echo chamber -- it takes informed (or at least "entrenched") opinions to turn it into anything but an echo chamber.
And, sometimes entrenched is kind of like informed, or vice-versa.
 
 
2 hours later…
4:31 PM
@giuliolunati I did not want to flag DocKimbel, I asked for it to not go there, but again, not your fault!
I hope that's the end of it, but generally, for now, let's not tag questions outside of the common subset regardless.
I say that not in deference to DocKimbel, but because, I think we could all use time to think about the design of Rebol3, and that's best discussed here.
So let's just make the "there is no fight" part easier by not purposefully asking questions about the uncommon subset on SO.
The easiest way to not have a fight is to not have it.
 
 
2 hours later…
7:06 PM
@GrahamChiu I don't think I'm using wait within my HTTPD port, I do add the subport to the wait-list, but I don't know that means anything in Rebol 3.
 
7:19 PM
@rgchris in R3, wait-list means nothing, as long as a port has pending actions, wait will run the actions and call its awake function, unless it's wait/only, in which case, only the awake function of the ports passed to wait/only will be called
 
In the case of the simple open, read, close use, it makes sense to return the http content. It seems to me that for every other use, a response object should be returned instead.
 
7:45 PM
And perhaps we should be using a request object instead of doing all sorts of gymnastics inside the http protocol.
@RebolBot help write
@RebolBot delete
@rgchris it was in that sample code you gave me when trying to get rebol 2 to talk to a rebol 3 server
 
8:15 PM
@GrahamChiu This one, right?
@GrahamChiu Like this?
 
@rgchris yes, that one
@rgchris that looks good for rest, but there are other protocols out there
I'm just proposing that we be allowed to write a request object, and get a response object back.
But at present write doesn't take an object as its second argument
The headers dialect is a way to bypass that restriction but it looks like it could get cumbersome very quickly
 
8:37 PM
@GrahamChiu Should be able to take an object, for sure...
 
9:07 PM
@HostileFork ok.
 
 
2 hours later…
11:09 PM
[not find source-analysis 'eol-wsp] "failed"
that's on run-recover.r ... is it important?
>> rebol/build
== 20-Mar-2017/0:21:06

>> rebol/platform
== [Windows win32-x64]
 

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