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9:02 AM
that feeling when you go to the blog of the tech lead of a website and find error messages about wordpress
 
@Shafizadeh Yes
 
That moment you look at an avatar and you can guess how long it takes for them to be kicked
 
@DaveRandom yeah, setting up jenkins locally. Not sure if I can be bothered with DNS...or exposing my new PC to the interwebz.
Also.....i need to recompile the twitter plugin for jenkins......which means i'm going to have to use maven again :-/
@kelunik prediction; the type widening RFC will be used more for people wanting a small optimization than for sensible purposes.
 
@DaveRandom ta, I'll do that later on, need to pop out, then work for a while ... will ping when done ;)
 
@Danack Small optimization == dropping type constraint entirely for performance?
 
9:09 AM
@JoeWatkins no probs, that's generally less of an arse than the teamviewer thing now we've got this far, all I need is a browser and you don't need to get involved, just let know when you are ready
 
ack
afk
 
@Danack I have a paid no-ip account if you want me to set you up a host
 
When you fill in a ticket as detailed as possible and receive "I managed to read your "essay". " in return
>_>
 
@Sean Next time just put "IT DOESN'T WORK" with maximum priority and criticality
 
@kelunik yeah. For people who have complete coverage of their application using static analysis, it's not totally insane. Just marginally.
 
9:12 AM
This is with our server providers, I can't tell if I should be angry or amused lol
 
Anonymous
@Sean i'd tell them to fuck right off
 
@Sean top-tip. The phrase "thanks for your feedback", is a useful neutral phrase.
 
@Danack I don't think that will often be the case, given how many people wanted e.g. scalar types so much.
 
@DaveRandom thanks will think about it, as definitely not sure if I want to open the firewall at all at home.
Also, the only time i'd want to look at the build error is when i'm sat at that machine.
 
Uhm, @Trowski, I think the changelog should not have been changed: github.com/amphp/parallel/commit/…
 
9:19 AM
@kelunik idiots-idiots-everywhere.jpg
 
@Danack I already got 2 mails about the RFC.
 
@Danack then what's the point of tweeting it? :-P
 
Oops* Sorry, I'm kinda building a chatbot for discord, is it alright if I use Jeeves as a solid starting point?
I'm trying to learn Amphp and Auryn a bit more, figured that would be a good place to start
 
in other words, knock yourself out
no need to ask
 
@DaveRandom so i know to look at it when i get home, without having to remember to check a status screen. Or if i am home but bot at the computer can look at instantly.
 
Anonymous
9:22 AM
@Sean I'll accept payments on behalf of them if you feel bad.
 
@Danack you should have it DM you
 
o/
 
s/should/could/
do what you like :-P
 
@kelunik Hey, sorry for bugging again, but isn't async-interop/promise missing a spec for something usually called Deferred, i.e. somthing that creates promises and is able to resolve/reject them? How is a third-party library supposed to provide async-interop/promises without that, when it still wants to give the user the freedom to choose an async-interop/promise implementation?
 
> This is more than just a Bash shell. It’s a full compatibility layer for running Linux applications on Windows.
 
9:25 AM
Yes but the moment you try something simple as a tail it already breaks :P
 
ThW
Morning
 
o/
 
@m6w6 it doesn't matter for interop
 
the point is that the promise is interoperable, your "primary framework" produces promises that work with others. If you want a completion source, you can use anything as long as produces an interoperable promise
 
9:27 AM
@DaveRandom o_O hä? You mean that I, as a third-party library provider, would have to pre-code solutions for every possible async-interop/promise provider?
 
@m6w6 The user doesn't choose the promise implementation, the library chooses it. Interoperability is only required for the consumption of promises.
 
@m6w6 no no, your library is attached to one provider or another, but it returns interoperable promises
you'd never return a deferred
 
@m6w6 No, you just use a compatible promise implementation.
 
@PeeHaa Srsly?
 
@kelunik off list? From GC? What were the topics of the emails?
 
9:28 AM
I'd not return a deferred, but I, as third party library would have to use one
 
@Jimbo yes srsly
 
So if I choose react as the framework for my app, I can use amp libraries because they return compatible promises
But when my app creates a completion source, it creates the react one
 
@Danack Off-list.
> I have saw https://wiki.php.net/rfc/parameter-no-type-variance and I'm a scared of aftermath. I don't see any possibility to vote, so everything I can do is to write you. Look at this simple example:
>
> you define interface in abstract library with specific signature. Then you implement 4 times interface with changing signature of 1 of them (why? because you can). User of your library is looking at interface signature and expecting specific args, but getting runtime error on 1 of 4 implementation. Please look carefully at this feature, it can cause a lot of troubles for standard of OOP c
 
a completion source is a concrete implementation, it doesn't need an interface because you are coupled to the concrete because you created it
 
@DaveRandom yeah probably, which leads back to needing to recompile the twitter plugin, as currently it doesn't support DMs. Or any other useful settings.
 
9:30 AM
Say, I have an async github API library, which is not committed to react nor amp nor xyz, I'd have to have my own implementations to create react or amp promises or any future async-interop/promise provider
 
> I would like to ask you, does it allows different implementations?
>
> Lets suppose that we have the class Foo with the myTestMethod, that expects an array as a parameter,
> then we have the class Bar that extends from Foo and also with the myTestMethod method but in this case it doesn't expect any type argument.
>
> Also let's suppose that we have different implementation in both methods.
>
> Will I receive the same output using Bar::myTestMethod([]) and Bar::myTestMethod('string')?
^ Those are the two. I don't even understand the point of the second one. You can already have totally different implementations in overrides. :D
 
@m6w6 well you write your lib for a specific loop impl (so you'd pick react or amp or whatever), the point is that an app with is built in something else is still able to use you lib
 
@DaveRandom What if I don't want to commit to any specific implementation
 
@m6w6 You just choose Amp or React or any other promise implementation.
@DaveRandom Promise, not loop.
@m6w6 Why would you?
 
sorry yes, I mean "thing which contains a completion source implementation"
 
9:33 AM
@DaveRandom I just prefer asking first anyway :>
 
@kelunik E_WAT. Also, I was going to note this already Levi is the only native English speaker to vote no(, and he said he's only voting no because he'd prefer an explicit 'any' type), which is kind of interesting.
 
I mean we could have a shared standalone concrete promise implementation lib, no reason you couldn't do that
 
because I would want to let the library consumer choose what they like best
 
@Danack Right. Also did you have a look at the PR?
@m6w6 The consumer only cares about the consumption, and that's defined by the interface.
 
the interop project ensures that it doesn't matter what's actually powering it
 
9:35 AM
@kelunik i saw it wasn't that big, but I haven't touched that aspect of internals at all.
 
yeah, yes,yes, all of this is right, but, jeez how do I make myself understood :)
 
Sure, it means you potentially end up pulling in the code for both amp and react, but composer deals with that problem for you
 
@Jimbo Holy molly, a very good reason to install windows 10
 
2 mins ago, by DaveRandom
I mean we could have a shared standalone concrete promise implementation lib, no reason you couldn't do that
Maybe there should be a "reference implementation" @kelunik
that way libs could just pull that in
 
9:37 AM
@DaveRandom No reason to have that. Some people prefer new Deferred; $deferred->resolve(), some people prefer new Promise(function ($resolve, $fail) { ... })
 
Wes
should i submit rfc about passing the original instance to function __clone($clonedObject){} as optional parameter. for decoration, logging, proxies, and whatnot
 
@kelunik not sure what you're asking. I am completely unqualified to comment on the PR.
 
@Wes Why do you need the original one?
 
@kelunik I'm just thinking that it's not immediately obvious from the promise API how it works at the back end
 
@Danack Just linking because of the GitHub reactions to the RFC.
 
Wes
9:38 AM
> decoration, logging, proxies, and whatnot
not everyday's code :B
 
@Wes You can just do that with the cloned object, no?
@DaveRandom Then we should probably add some text to the spec that points it out?
 
Wes
what if you want to know which object was cloned?
 
@m6w6 I can see what you are getting at I think. In an ideal world these would be language primitives, of course.
Is it possible for a built in class to implement a userland interface? I'm guessing no because that would be kind of insane
 
@DaveRandom I'm not even sure whether that's the thing we want.
There are multiple implementations that make sense.
 
fail :-P
 
9:42 AM
@DaveRandom I guess no, but I wondered that, too. ^^
 
Wes
@DaveRandom i think i've asked in here. iirc you can if you load the extension dynamically, using dl()
 
But we could just move the interface to core and alias it and mark directly as deprecated.
 
@Wes Did we kill that?
 
@kelunik in fact we don't need it, can do what pecl-ds does with the polyfill
 
!!docs dl
 
9:42 AM
[ dl() ] Loads a PHP extension at runtime
 
Wes
> This function was removed from most SAPIs in PHP 5.3.0, and was removed from PHP-FPM in PHP 7.0.0.
 
yes we did
 
Wes
nvm then...
 
@DaveRandom no, but it would be simple to say class Foo extends Pecl implements Userland
 
@DaveRandom No, because the namespace isn't something that will be present in PHP core.
 
9:43 AM
mornin
 
yo paulaner
 
@kelunik doesn't matter, class_alias can solve that
 
@DaveRandom No, because it doesn't work for core things, only userland.
Fixing that would solve it ^^
 
Surely you can just create 2 ces?
At worst you can just duplicate it
 
... that was actually my argument about the loop driver being an abstract class instead of an interface...
 
9:45 AM
@kelunik ah, I didn't bother to read those. Tbh github having issues open for anyone to comment on is often a shitshow. Also, I do not care what any java programmer has to say about anything, but particularly about polymorphism:
Jul 14 '16 at 19:02, by Danack
They are nuts. Seriously, I consider some groups of programmers to have gone collectively insane, and you should do the opposite of what they do, even if you're not 100% sure why you should do the opposite.
 
I don't see any reason why we couldn't just make an ext with a polyfill. Come do that I don't see why "the namespace isn't something that will be present in PHP core" @kelunik
 
@DaveRandom It's fine to use a namespace for an extension, but when it moves to core, those are usually removed, see libsodium discussion.
 
Right, but at that point code has to be rewritten (even if only use decls) anyway
 
@m6w6 What I would really like is to solve the setState issue differently.
@DaveRandom Would be cool to avoid that using aliases.
 
hey folks, is there any way to downcast a React\Promise\PromiseInterface to an ExtendedPromiseInterface? also, is there any reason why people keep hinting to the first one in ReactPHP libs, when the second one is incredibly more convenient?
 
9:49 AM
@kelunik well in userland you can, and in the ext you can just register the ce with 2 different names in minit
 
@StefanoTorresi Those will be merged in v3 anyway.
@DaveRandom Does that pass the type checks then using extensions of the interface?
 
@kelunik oh, good to know, thanks
 
@StefanoTorresi Also, if you're not aware, you might want to get involved in github.com/async-interop
 
@Wes if you need that, just write a function "clone_with_extra" rather than implementing it in internals?
 
!!lxr arrayobject
 
9:53 AM
@kelunik There were no results for that search
 
@kelunik I was aware indeed, but last time I checked react/promise doesn't implement that
 
@kelunik I would assume it can be made to work, because of the existence of class_alias it must be done using a pointer comparison somewhere, as long was we ensure that whatever pointer is used is correct... /cc @bwoebi @m6w6
I have no idea where the type checking logic even is
 
@StefanoTorresi You might want to join in at github.com/reactphp/promise/pull/78 for that.
 
Hm? I guess I lost the thread...
 
Wes
@Danack how? using the same interface. i want to detect an object being cloned with "clone $obj". i cannot do that, unless i do $this->that = $this;
 
9:56 AM
@kelunik will do, thank you very much
 
Wes
which id rather not do :B it's not the first time i needed that so i asked if someone needed it too
 
@m6w6 instead of using class alias (because you can't for internal classes), register the ce with 2 different names on minit() - can inheritance checks be made to work, such that if Foo extends \Promise it will still satisfy a hint for \Interop\Promise
 
@Wes Instead of writing 'clone $foo' write 'clone_with_extra($foo)'
 
where \Promise and \Interop\Promise are aliases
 
Wes
@Danack can't change existing code, i mean i can, but would make the whole thing pointless... :P
 
9:58 AM
basically a hack to effectively class_alias('\Promise', '\Interop\Promise') in an extension's minit
 
"We don't have time for testing"
#famousLastWords
 
Although @kelunik I still feel like this is overcomplicating it, and that if anything ever happened like this where it was moved into core, loads of code would need to be rewritten to take advantage anyway
 
@DaveRandom yeah, that's basically doing the same
 
Anonymous
@Trucy what is 'testing' ?
 
Wes
i need to check what class_alias does. sounds like opportunities to hack :B
 
10:01 AM
@Wes so....instead of changing your application to fit your requirements, you'd prefer to change the way PHP works...
 
@Trowski Yeah, the server disconnects because I get kicked from it, but amp doesn't exit out. I would have thought there would be no more events scheduled after a disconnect
 
@DaveRandom We don't benefit from moving to core unless async is implemented to turn current generators automatically into coroutines.
 
@JayIsTooCommon My "Project Manager Cloud Dictionnary© AGILE IoT 2017 edition" reads "testing v.: losing time (and thus, MONEY)"
(e.g. I wrote tests for the critical software. means "I lost a week over something useless because everything should work")
 
Anonymous
cross repo labels would be nice in Github
 
@kelunik right, which imo nullifies this whole discussion and means that we may as well create an exts with polyfills wherever we feel like it
in a place where performance is sought to the nth degree, this issue of forwards compat with a thing that will require a huge rewrite anyway and may never happen seems ridiculous
 
10:04 AM
Can exts change the parser?
 
Wes
@Danack i'm asking if people need it and how much. because it has been mentioned several times in here (first result: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/24521602#24521602 )
 
@kelunik I think that they can manipulate the ast but that's definitely a question for bob/nikita
 
Wes
also
Jul 17 '15 at 19:25, by PeeHaa
Every time @RonaldUlyssesSwanson asks a question I wonder whether it is pure genius or retarded
@PeeHaa you son of a bitch
 
:P
 
@DaveRandom And extension is only beneficial if we can add async support there, but I think it has to be done in core directly.
 
10:07 AM
What. I gave you the benefit of the doubt :P
 
@kelunik not true, there's another advantage: if there's an extension containing the interfaces, it means that other extensions can be written which work with async-interop types
 
Wes
yeah but since it's clearly not genius it can only be the other one... @PeeHaa you asshole :B
 
:-D
 
I could e.g. rewrite artax as an extension
 
@DaveRandom That's true, yes.
 
10:10 AM
@kelunik to me, that's a good enough argument for creating an extension which would be about 60 loc or something
 
There is an English word similar to "invoke" which means "canceling" ..! Does anybody know what's that?
 
and if such an async extension were to be created, it can be dependent on the one that contains the interfaces, they don't need to be mutually exclusive
 
Wes
@Danack also you know what i think about adding stuff to php randomly.... while i have many mad ideas, i also have the decency of not submitting actual rfcs for them :B
 
@DaveRandom But you need the complete event loop in core, too, then.
Well, I think the accessor would be enough, no?
 
@kelunik only the interfaces
 
10:18 AM
People who "reduce class complexity" by extracting functionality into single-use traits...
 
I'm talking about an ext that would provide everything under async-interop, but nothing else
 
why would you do that ?
 
@JoeWatkins to enable writing interoperable async libs as extensions
 
Wes
i knew it. i swear i tried it directly on 3v4l and i knew it would fail 3v4l.org/aqs7e (cc @bwoebi)
 
the userland interfaces would serve as a polyfill, like ds
 
10:20 AM
okay ... you know this is only going to make sense for a matter of months, the days where we provide API as extensions are coming to a close ... we are going to have a JIT ...
 
@Wes You unset the ref to the obj, it still isn't GCed until the end
 
Wes
indeed. i think i shouldn't be forced to do that
 
@JoeWatkins is that really going to put userland code on absolute level pegging with extensions in terms of perf? (bearing in mind that async is perf focused in the extreme)
 
@DaveRandom The accessor, too, because you need it to access the current loop.
 
@Wes Tough, PHP is a garbage collected language, you want to explicitly free something, use C (I know that came out as dickish, wasn't supposed to sound like that :P)
 
10:22 AM
@kelunik true
 
that's not a big deal though (imho)
 
Wes
@Leigh 3v4l.org/Npcvq not even this works?
no, obviously it doesnt. so annoying
 
@DaveRandom the difference will be measurable, but so negligible that it won't make sense to restrict who can work on it by writing in a language that most of the ecosystem do not understand ...
 
Because nothing triggered GC
 
10:24 AM
> Asynchronous software development
 
@DaveRandom So we don't have to worry about that, the extension will just provide what the interop repos provide today and so the autoloader won't be invoked?
 
@JoeWatkins This is a practice most us employ :) Our time scheduler allocates blocks for different projects
 
Asynchronous Software Development: write one line of class A, write one line of class B, write one line of class A, write one line of class B ...
 
@kelunik that's the idea
What Joe says is valid, but equally this can potentially be used to bring that performance to earlier versions that don't have the jit
 
@JoeWatkins Grouping is important, (async software) development vs. async (software development). :P
 
10:26 AM
yeah yeah, just giggleworthy ... not having a pop at the guy, looks great ...
 
await (software development); // never returns
 
Guys, halp me with doctrine PLEASE. This is annoying as shit!
 
fucking hell $795
this is just ridiculous ...
 
I have cascade refresh on parent. I make a change to a child (in an ArrayCollection) then persist the parent. Child changes are not persisted.
 
Wes
@Leigh does that happen for that specific case or anything referenced anywhere could behave like that? :\
 
10:30 AM
sorry, 895
why make it exclusive like that, I don't understand ...
 
because it's the best way to monetize a shitty twitter bot
 
Hey guys, I have a weird question. Is it make difference if I do

// page content, images, css
mysql( insert query );

is it better than

mysql( insert query );
// page content, images, css

Considering that 1st one displays the content faster than 2nd ?
 
that's conference + workshop price ... I highly doubt it's because of the workshop content ... it matters very little what the reasons are actually, it is wholly unjustifiable and unreasonable ...
 
@Wes Happens everywhere.
 
ThW
@ADISbayrakcan of course it does, if you send stuff to the browser early it can display it early otherwise it has to wait for the database query. But if you need information from that logic the first variant will not work.
 
Wes
10:36 AM
@Leigh pisses me off that does that even when leaving a function 3v4l.org/NbufW :(
 
got it thanks.
 
@Wes The problem is that you assigned $this to a property on the object
 
Wes
@Leigh so it's just that specific case
 
When you unset($x) there is still a reference to $x in the form of that object property, so you have to wait for GC or script termination
 
Wes
10:40 AM
if there's no recursion it seems to work
 
Does cdn network make it faster if there is only <? echo "hello world"; ?> on the page ?
 
TIL: schlep ʃlɛp/ NORTH AMERICAN informal verb past tense: schlepped; past participle: schlepped
 
!!wotd
 
jurisprudence: the science or philosophy of law.
 
0
Q: Doctrine - Make changes to child in ArrayCollection. Persist parent. Child changes are not persisted

Jimbo Background: A Pitch can contain many Visuals. The Visuals are stored as a property on Pitch in an ArrayCollection. Here's a quick diagram of the Visuals table (visuals), the Pitches table (statuses_pitch) and the join table created by Doctrine as a result. Schema Here's the relevant mapp...

 
Wes
10:51 AM
dammit :B 3v4l.org/IFc91
 
@Jimbo Have you tried using SQL to update the relevant fields?
 
Wes
@PaulCrovella HERO :B
 
@Leigh No, I want cascade to do it
 
@Jimbo I put stainless zorst on bike a few days ago, then removed (removable) baffle ... sounds like world is ending when you go down the road, also, shiny :D
 
10:57 AM
!!translate zorst
 
@Gordon Sorry, I don't speak zorst
 
neither do I
 
exhaust
 
!!en zorst
 
zorst (translated from English)
 
10:57 AM
hehehe
 
@Jimbo no idea what you're talking about
 
@JoeWatkins Ooh, got any before / after pics?
 
I got 99 problems but an ORM aint one ;D
 
@Leigh You should be able to tell the parent to persist, and it'll automatically persist any changes to children. Hold on... docs.doctrine-project.org/projects/doctrine-orm/en/latest/…
 
I'm not clicking that
 
10:59 AM
@Leigh Okay. So a User has many Comments.
$this->comments->add($newComment);
 
@Jimbo haven't yet, will do one when I take her out next ... before pic is just the one from when I got her ...
 
Then $em->persist($user)
Means that the comments are also persisted if you have CASCADE persist on
 
Don't make me shrink your head!
 
. . .
 

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