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1:03 PM
One of the rare fun ones.
 
@ElimGarak and the problem was the same the entire time.... they used a crappy hard drive
 
2TB of RAM and using a HDD
 
@sehe 2TB of RAM, wut
 
@Borgleader The comic upstairs
 
@ElimGarak Is that Gaben? :P
 
1:14 PM
> I Had a Baby and Cancer When I Worked at Amazon. This Is My Story
Why the pointless distinction
 
Was the baby the cancer?
 
One is a mass of cells that grows incrontrolably inside your body, the other is a mass of cells that grows incrontrolably inside your body.
 
The growth of one of them is easy to stop and you can remove it from the body without causing too much damage.
 
but only one goes out from your vigina
 
Even if you don't do anything, the body will let it out eventually.
 
1:17 PM
The cancer? :P
 
spent an nearly an hour looking for this bug. See if you can spot it
        signal_size_changed.Connect(
                    &window->size_px
                    &DeferredProperty<gui::Window::SizePixels>::Notify,
                    window);
 
The comma?
 
The fact that you're using C++?
 
@ElimGarak yep
Its relatively easy to spot in isolation
But with a bunch of shit, and this helpful error message, I wasted a bunch of time on it
error: invalid use of non-static member function 'void ks::DeferredProperty<T>::Notify(T) [with T = std::pair<unsigned int, unsigned int>]'
&DeferredProperty<gui::Window::SizePixels>::Notify,
 
They were all smart. They were all lightning-fast.
spending your best years building someone else empire does not strike me as very smart
 
1:20 PM
It didn't matter in the thick of the fight...
@chmod711telkitty You sir, need to read up on the definition of "empire"
 
I am sorry, I was constantly surrounded by very smart people, I don't consider a lot of people who others call smart, smart
I look at results, if you are not good at getting what you aim for, you are not very smart
 
@chmod711telkitty You'd be surrounded by smart people even in a special needs class.
 
@chmod711telkitty none of this relates to empires
 
@ElimGarak pretty much everyone on my dad's side taught in universities at one stage. Sure that does not mean they are extremely smart, but at least they have to have superior intelligence
 
1:26 PM
@sehe most people don't realize that the harddrive is the single biggest upgrade in speed to a computer, getting a faster hard drive with more cache and a better interface can even make a crappy CPU and Low ram seem faster than a high end machine with a crappy drive
 
@sehe your goal is to get paid and be told what to do for the rest of your life?
 
@Mgetz I think you mean replacing it with an SSD ;)
 
@Borgleader ultimately, yes
or better yet... SSD RAID
 
Samsung 850 EVO 2 TB speed and capacity is no longer a compromise
 
Does RAID make sense for SSD?
Never heard of it.
 
1:27 PM
@Mgetz Maximum PC put 4 1TB SSDs in RAID in their Dream Machine for this year.
 
@Borgleader I think that might saturate the bus... but don't quote me
 
They wanted to get over the SATA limit, but couldnt spare the PCIE lanes (because those were all taken by the 4 watercooled Titan Xs)
 
I think they got 1.6GB/s out of the thing, but I dont remember the number for sure. I'd have to check the article again
 
@Borgleader lol you sound like an advertiser
 
1:30 PM
@Borgleader yeah, much suffering
 
@chmod711telkitty Teaching at a university does not require a superior intelligence. In many cases, those teaching are just failures in their own field and need to make ends meet. Also, that has nothing to do with empires.
 
@MaiLongdong Nah, I'm just hyped. I want HDDs to go away
 
@Mgetz "most people don't realize that the harddrive is the single biggest upgrade in speed to a computer" depends /a lot/ on the era.
 
@ElimGarak really, obviously it does not require some intelligence to get good marks
 
@Borgleader It's still pretty expensive, tho.
@chmod711telkitty No, it doesn't. It only takes subjecting yourself to authority and being a persistent person, the former being which you grilled sehe over just a few minutes ago.
 
1:32 PM
My dad often said that he topped class because he was hard working. Yeah Right, he only say that because he wasn't born an idiot. I would like to see how hard he has to work to top maths in uni ... being born an idiot
 
Also, if you're going to make grandiose claims of your lineage, citations needed. You know, research papers.
 
@ElimGarak So you telling me people of average intelligence can top maths class in reputable universities?
 
@chmod711telkitty Very much so, yes. All it takes is persistence.
 
@ElimGarak Its getting there!Soon enough it'll be half that price :)
 
1:34 PM
Morwenn is our music equivalent of Feeds
 
@ElimGarak so you calling all those who did not get top marks lazy asses?
 
I wonder if Feeds has thought experiments too :)
 
@MaiLongdong And just like Feeds, all the recommendations are lame
runs
 
user406009
Most of the classes I have taken primarily measure effort, not understanding of material or intelligence or anything else.
 
@chmod711telkitty In a large majority of cases, yes. I believe people usually do not fulfill their potential.
 
1:36 PM
@MaiLongdong I'm a music bot. If you ping me with a genre, I can post something somewhat relevant if you're lucky.
 
@ElimGarak why is that so
 
@Morwenn porn music
 
I don't like people who throw around "superior intelligence". Intelligence measuring is bullshit, an intelligent person would know that. It's a dimensionless, baseless value.
 
inb4 mozart
 
1:37 PM
Why did I
 
@ElimGarak I like how you call people who got low marks in subjects such as maths or physics, lazy
 
The shit you do is what you are. Nothing else matters, where you work, where you went to school, who your daddy is, nothing.
 
@MaiLongdong puts on hoodie this way :P (do i have to say nsfw?)
 
user406009
@ElimGarak A nice analoly I like to use is: Imagine how many stupid mistakes you made when you first started programming. Compare that to your current state. Isn't that itself proof of the importance of effort and learning?
 
@ElimGarak George W Bush would like to differ .. and the whole kennedy clan
 
1:38 PM
@Morwenn hahaha thats even better than what i had xD
 
@chmod711telkitty Who gives a fuck about him?
 
@Morwenn ambient electronica
 
user406009
@ElimGarak One counter point is that math and physics classes really build up on previous knowledge. If that previous foundation is shit, you are going to have a harder time.
 
@Prismatic It's a side project of Mr. Bill.
 
@Morwenn Instant link for porn music, "its a wip" for ambient electronic music. I like your priorities :P
 
1:40 PM
@ElimGarak yes, it does matter. If Bill Gates was born into a starving family in the Africa, he would not become who he is right now.
 
@Borgleader I sometimes know my shit :p
 
@chmod711telkitty If I had a vagina, I'd be a girl. Also, that's presumptuous.
 
@Borgleader dear lord
 
Does your daddy know you're embarrassing him every day here? Man, I'd disown you and your chickens.
 
@ElimGarak you could have been a hermaphrodite with both a dick and a vagine, yes that's presumptuous
 
1:42 PM
@Borgleader I could also have shared that: youtube.com/watch?v=-_x03_O4xoM
 
Save me, sehe.
 
@MaiLongdong and for the ladies :P (its only funny after seeing the original)
 
@ElimGarak ok
 
user406009
@ElimGarak I guess you have started work on KyroStat according to the github? Would it be possible to look at the source code (think it would be interesting to learn from)?
 
@ElimGarak my dad is very okay with whatever I do, he loves me too much
 
1:43 PM
We agree
 
@Lalaland Indeed, but I am going to take a week or two before pushing it up, so there is something tangible to look at and run.
 
@MaiLongdong special aptitude is hardly "superior intelligence"
 
How do you guys deal with open source stuff, do you push stuff immediately up regardless of how small the commit is?
 
commit behaviour relates to local branches. It's immaterial what I work on
 
@MaiLongdong according to elim, mozard was just one of the hardest working musicians ... other musicians are as talented, but damn, those lazy asses
 
user406009
1:47 PM
@ElimGarak There is a difference between personal projects and projects with multiple commiters.
 
user406009
For personal projects I don't give a fuck. Commit and push whatever.
 
user406009
For multiple commiters, you sorta want one commit per finished, tested, feature so that makes merging easier.
 
@sehe I am superior intelligence
 
elim says you just try very hard
@Lalaland I agree, also people don't pull bugging code when they need to get it from the source
 
Yeah, just don't want people to stare at a few thousand lines of pipeline state descriptions, descriptor heaps and other stuff with no payoff when they hit compile. It's important for morale of the KS project that shit happens onscreen, from the get-go.
 
1:54 PM
I hope KS means KyroStat not KickStarter
also, kyrostat is back from the dead? :p
 
Ahaha, yeah.
 
user406009
Now this chat can have purpose again!
 
yeah, this chat always has a purpose - so programmers can chill here
 
If this chat were for programming or programmers per se, none of us would be here.
 
10 PRINT "CHAT"
20 GOTO 10
 
1:57 PM
You can watch it on GitHub and it'll let you know when shit happens. The first push should happen inside of two weeks and there will be something fun on-screen.
 
chat is basically cat in a hat
 
I like the commit history
 
user406009
I think cat is the most cynical person here.
 
@MaiLongdong Yeah, fucking Markdown.
 
Cat is love Cat is life
 
1:59 PM
Cat is the other one, besides your wife
 
What makes you think those two are distinct
 
Still no new mail from @Sino :(
 
Seriously though, how do they handle collisions with gravatars?
 
C h at C hat
cat in a hat
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ it's two dimensional
just need 1000 fragment per dimension to avoid collision amongst 1000000 users
 
2:03 PM
MD5 hashing may yield collisions. I can't get around that :c
It's the MD5 hash of my email
 
does it have to be MD5? any hashing tends to yield collision
 
> We're not Russian.
heh
 
What if someone else's email ends up with the same hash?
We'll share the same space alternating in requests?
 
must steal your gravatar!
 
I don't know sounds like a stupid way of identifying a gravatar
 
user406009
2:07 PM
There is only a 1/2^128 chance of collision.
 
But what do they do in that case?
 
user406009
And only 2^32.7 people in the world
 
user406009
That's a very low chance of collision even if everyone has like 10 accounts.
 
> No cross-platform. Windows & DirectX.
this is not the kyrostat I remember
 
user406009
@melak47 We can port it later.
 
2:09 PM
what's the dimension of a gravatar?
 
2
 
yeah very funny
 
What question is that? Gravatars can have any dimensions you want.
 
if it's 80 x 80, then how can it accommodate 2^128 combinations of different ones?
 
user406009
What's the bit depth of the pixels?
 
user406009
2:11 PM
It must be at least 24 bits.
 
user406009
So that's 153600 bits.
 
user406009
Way more than the 128 bits required for all 2^128 MD5 combinations.
 
user406009
 
@Lalaland I have already made sure abstractions are in place to allow other OSes and different graphics & media APIs. So everyone can knock themselves out porting it later. It's a big priority to have a prototype working and keeping the scope tight.
Going wild later can be done at everyone's personal risk. Also leaves places for people to contribute significantly.
 
2:15 PM
3
Q: Will SHA1 of Email Addresses Always be Unique?

user19695We want to store data about a person without storing their email address, but we want to latter connect that person with their data upon them supplying their email address. Storing a SHA1 of their (lowercased) email address will accomplish that, but is it possible that two different email addr...

 
Fuck SHA1.
 
user406009
Why? It was a decent algorithm. Just like MD5. It's hard to make them perfect.
 
Move to teh next gen!
 
user406009
More like fuck the pepole who keep on using it.
 
It's impossible to maje them perfect.
 
2:19 PM
I tried majonazing them perfect, didn't work.
 
speaking of which, there are probably 50 shades of grey in gravatar
 
user406009
StartSSL really sucks.
 
@ElimGarak out of curiosity, what compiler/toolchain are you using?
 
user406009
I am very close to just giving up on them.
 
@melak47 Visual Studio 2015 / MSVC v140 (so you can expect C++11 love, but not beyond too much). It has invaluable graphics debugging tools for DX1x. Also, quite fond of it, regardless of the hate it gets from Cat.
 
2:22 PM
I had this chat tab open but it changed to javascript :S
instead of c++ chat
 
@ElimGarak I just hate the bugs :D
 
two maroon bald guys side by side is very off putting :p
 
racist
 
I always have to stare at my fluffy chickens to offset that effect
luckily I had them as my avatar
 
@ElimGarak if you need some teapots for your prototype, hit me up :p
 
2:27 PM
@melak47 Preparing the ships, here's an already old animation test, to get the feel for it.
 
You know that sinking feeling you get when you realize your design is terrible and complex and everything is going to suck forever
 
The far away camera is to get the feel for the player's sense of scale. I guess that'll be the usual point of view.
 
lol someone serial-upvoted me
 
inb4 reversal
 
@AndyProwl Won't that get undone eventually?
 
2:35 PM
no idea, I suspect so
 
@ElimGarak Ya'll have working things. I'm here reading OpenGL Insights to learn how to write glsl shaders properly =/
 
@Borgleader Kyrostat may very well be a great place for you to learn, especially in the OGL port effort which the Loungers will definitely insist upon.
 
Dutch sounds like German except even worse
 
2:38 PM
@sehe ~_~
it's a chat, not a rubbish bin
 
I think I still got that site somewhere. Might even be useful in the end.
 
@ElimGarak Eh, I'm doing this to learn, wont be doing much of that if the lounge does most of it for me :)
besides im not in too much of a hurry
 
kyrost.at
 
'twas kyrostat.com last time.
 
.com is evil for-profit domain
use .gnu instead
 
2:43 PM
OpenKyrostat
 
KyroStallmann.gnu
 
Also DirectX is a proprietary technology, you shouldn't be using it
 
@MaiLongdong DirectX is love.
 
Long live Vulkan and its reasonable API
 
Live long and prosper.
 
2:46 PM
I must say I haven't followed DX12 though, is it also AZO?
 
DX12, basically, has the advantage of being out in the wild right now. Which will end up pretty decisive. As most studios have been adding support for it a year prior to the release of it last month. Otherwise, they're pretty much on par. Mantle came out and kicked both Microsoft & Khronos into high gear. DirectX 12 became a thing, Mantle became redundant, Mantle became the basis for glNext which is now called Vulkan. And you're here. It is 29th of August.
 
Vulkan will become a thing regardless
The greatest strategy of Khronos being SPIR
Probably their smartest decision in a long time
 
It will. But in a different manner. Yes, SPIR is cool.
It took them a fucking long time, tho.
 
Yes, typical Khronos
 
Why is GitHub Desktop trying to give me a tutorial each time I install it?
 
2:52 PM
Because you don't know Git
 
s/Git/shit
 
Git is love Git is merge conflict
 
@MaiLongdong Git < Perforce
 
Nice try
 
2:56 PM
I'll come over there and... Turn around and go home because I'm scared of conflict.
FUCK YOU, WINDOWS. AND FUCK YOUR ONEDRIVE SHIT. Well, that escalated quickly.
 
user1804599
lol
 
I feel like shit today, fuck you allergies T_T
 
@Borgleader What are you allergic to?
 
@ElimGarak Seasonal allergies, yknow pollen and stuff, basically im allergic to nature which is yet another reason to stay inside and do computery stuff
 
Sorry to hear that. I am allergic to nothing*. (until I find something)
 
3:06 PM
All this time I thought a sparse vector was just a vector that wasn't tightly packed and had null or invalid elements inbetween valid ones
 
@Prismatic For folks watching you at home, how does it feel to be wrong?
 
anger
betrayal
 
user406009
Darn, stupid StartSSL is still down.
 
@Prismatic Well, it is
And that's why it can be storage-optimised
 
Well I think the general implication when you use the word sparse is that it is storage optimized
 
user406009
3:10 PM
Aren't the unused elements typically zero or some other constant install of "null or invalid"?
 
I didn't really assume that before
 
@ElimGarak lol two weeks
As if anyone will remember about it in two weeks (also commit often)
 
@CatPlusPlus Oh, two weeks for really basic stuff. Month to 2 months for what you think, something actually of interest to non-loungers (and loungers).
 
user406009
@CatPlusPlus I assume you believe this project will crash and burn?
 
I don't think about anything, I'm just saying you should commit and push more often
 
3:13 PM
I am populating a local branch mostly, but if people are interested, I could do that. Not sure people will find it particularly gratifying, though.
 
Still we can criticize your indentation style or things
 
> No cross-platform.
Not interested
 
Abstractions are in place for folks to push other systems and graphics/media APIs in. But I won't be doing it initially. Lots of work as it is.
 
user406009
@ElimGarak I think we would still be interested in watching.
 
That's because you're picking non-cross-platform toolset to begin with
I.e. you're bad
 
3:15 PM
lol
 
(DirectX graphics debugging tools :( )
 
Also good luck with MSVC and C++1y
 
(AMD OpenGL debugging tools are good)
Intel does some now too
 
I think I mentioned C++11 (v140), but not much beyond.
 
@CatPlusPlus s/1y//
 
3:16 PM
MSVC is MSVC++03 with some broken bits of 11
 
That's a bit harsh as of v140 :P
 
Ask Robot about MSVC compliance
 
It'll be fun, guise. But yes, Cat++'s concern with the fact that C++11+ is poorly supported is a bit annoying. A lot of Loungers will want to use C++14 stuff and bad shit will happen.
I could compromise with OpenGL 4.3. But last time with cross platform stuff, we wanted to run Kyrostat on shoeboxes as well. And it put a strain on everything.
 
user406009
Or we could just say curse it and use Rust! /sarcasm of course
 
Or you could just go the practical way and use UE/Unit
 
3:22 PM
@ElimGarak Use OpenGL 3.1 for maximum cross platformness
 
user406009
@Nooble No. We don't care about old platforms.
 
OpenGL 3.x is behind on so many levels.
 
user406009
Not for the first version.
 
@Nooble 3.1 is so oooooooooooooooooooooooold
> OpenGL 3.1
Release Date: March 24, 2009
 
But you guys can use Unity / UE on your own, I think.
 
3:24 PM
@ElimGarak Sorry, I mean OpenGL 1.1, you never know when you want backwards-compatibility with Vista.
 
just make it in UE4
and not worry about cross platform shenanigans
 
rip kyrostat x2
 
@Prismatic Where's the fun in that?
 
Nah, but you guys go ahead if you want. Dragging and dropping is not game development for me and connecting shit. Unless I developed the tools that enable said actions. The challenge is nullified. Basically, everything of interest to me with Kyrostat dies there.
 
@Borgleader Haha I know, I was just kidding.
 
3:26 PM
I thought you could write a lot of stuff in C++ with UE4
 
user406009
(Although I have a dirty dark, secret to report: I only have OpenGL 3.3 on this laptop :(
 
You can, but you know... UE4's codebase is shit, but shit sprinkled on many platforms. Unity's codebase is closed, but you can attach to it your crap.
In the end, UE4 is not C++1x qualifying either. And I'm pretty sure it's an .sln.
 
I'm finally in love
with ruby
Jekyll
 
@ElimGarak D:
 
What kind of renderer do you plan to write?
 
3:30 PM
it's really simple and essential. I like its themes and how I can modify stuff. I like templating articles and I like writing in markdown.
 
@Prismatic DX12 / DX11 supporting one. That is the most interesting part of Kyrostat for me personally. Henceforth, VS2015.
 
@ElimGarak Visual Studio D:
 
We can talk about this imaginary multiplatform multiAPI C++17 Kyrostat. Or we can actually work on Kyrostat.
 
I meant architecture. Forward / deferred, how do you plan on organizing things etc
 
@Prismatic Oh, that's a rather complicated topic. But it is going to use a deferred renderer because a lot of techniques require GBuffer data. Also, DirectX 12 brought ROVs which make order independent transparency trivial.
 
user406009
3:32 PM
@Prismatic It would probably be better to just look at his code when he's done.
 
@Lalaland That seems like a terrible idea. I'm just curious,
 
@ElimGarak And that's why it's again unlikely to get anywhere
 
@ElimGarak ROV? OIT seems cool. I was going to try implementing weighted blended OIT in OpenGL 2 at some point but I dont remember what happened with that
 
You don't want to make a game, you want to dabble in low-level engine shit
 
@Prismatic Raster Order Views.
 
3:35 PM
Fast iteration times and maximising compatibility should be the goals, not using newest shiniest DX
 
Well, how about a text adventure then?
 
@ElimGarak an exciting text adventure
I can't seem to find a lot of resources for DX12 unfrotunately
i have compiled some of the MS projects and that's about it
 
user406009
You walk into the lounge.
*look around*
You see a number of people chatting.
*troll*
You start trolling the chat. You recieve numerous stars and plonk.s
*insult Telekitty and her chickens*
Congratulations! You make it onto the starboard.
*post philsophical rant*
You have been kicked by CatPlusPlus. He told you to "go to libreland".
Game Over.
 
user406009
There. That could be our text adventure game.
 
...
nobody insults my chickens
5
 
3:42 PM
> chickens
childrens
mouses
 
fishes
 
telkittys
 
yay chelsea is being chickened
 
Chickii
 
Ell
I think you mean chooks
@prismatic are there alternates to forward and deferred and what are these things instances of?
 
3:54 PM
@Ell Variations of said approaches. There's forward+, tiled-based forward rendering, tile-based deferred rendering (also with z pass bounding) etc.
But those in turn are only applicable to rasterization approaches.
 
The final boss of the lounge game should be giant versions of telkitty's chickens
 
I think I'll just kill it. Insulting Telkitty is way more fun anyways. Need a new hobby now, though.
 
Mean lifespan 3 days
 
Ell
Forward+?
 
Well lifespan is pointless when nobody is particularly interested. Why blow a wall if nobody is going to give a fuck?
@Ell It's a flavor of a tiled-based compute forward approach, its name is probably the most unique thing about it.
It was basically used in one technical demo from AMD and that's pretty much it.
 
Ell
3:57 PM
I see
 
I maybe would in an actual game, but I don't really care for spending 6 months reimplementing what's already available in UE/Unity
Rendering is by far the least important and interesting part of any game
 
Ell
So basically you decide if you want forward or deferred rendering?
 
And then there's sound, input, UI, all taking ages to get right on their own
 
@Ell Yes, but forward is mostly the olden way. Deferred rendering is much better because it records a shitload of information which can be propagated down the rendering pipeline.
 
Ell
Right
But transparency is harder or something?
 
3:58 PM
> North Dakota Police Threaten to Shoot Students After Mistaking Telescope for Gun
 
And all the tools
@MaiLongdong News: nothing's new in merkia
 
PUT THE TELESCOPE DOWN
 
@Ell It solved the problem of overdraw (among others). And created the problem of transparency (no fragment information).
But with stuff like ROVs, OIT is made possible efficiently.
 
More acronyms
 
Raster Order Views. Order Independent Transparency.
 
3:59 PM
I said more not less omg
 

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