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11:00 AM
The difference being?
 
user1804599
Call-by-name leaves evaluation of arguments up to the callee, whereas named arguments allow you to write argument names before the arguments to improve readability.
 
also, I think 'function' is more semantic with good programming. 'subroutine' is like "this bit is done a few time", but 'function' carries more of a "call this as many times as you like, the same inputs yield the same output"
 
So call-by-name is just another name for lazy evaluation?
 
user1804599
No.
 
user1804599
Well, depends on how you define "lazy evaluation".
 
11:02 AM
@Mr.kbok you mean fails?
 
user1804599
With call-by-name, the callee may evaluate the argument multiple times.
 
It's not evaluating it before the function is called in call-by-name, the arguments that is. But in essence, it shits on itself when.. yes, what elyse said
 
I see.
So its a more confusing way of passing in a function
 
@Mr.kbok SubWay really do not make nice sandwiches :\
 
@ElimGarak aw
 
user1804599
11:04 AM
Subway is a fast food chain.
 
user1804599
Expect quality and joke's on you.
 
I like subway
 
@melak47 Seen the ending?
 
not yet, just got up
 
Can you say that double has a default constructor?
 
user1804599
11:04 AM
@Puppy We can conclude that people who like Subway don't like call-by-name.
 
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ No. Only classes can have constructors.
 
@elyse we can conclude all we want
 
@ElimGarak oh, a two episode finale :)
 
@melak47 Yes, yes! Also, surprise Star Trek guest.
I think they're doing everything they can do get renewed.
 
Just checking: in int& foo = *std::make_shared<int>(5);, foo becomes a dangling reference, right?
 
11:07 AM
@ElimGarak I'm not so sure...not enough Rodney :p
 
@elyse I like Subway too.
 
@melak47 There is a bit of him somewhere in the two episodes :P
 
user1804599
Speaking of named arguments.
 
user1804599
I would not compile them down to positional arguments.
 
user1804599
The VM can do that if it feels like it.
 
11:09 AM
@melak47 Did you notice that Rodney has much the same personality in both SG and DM? :D
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Why would you think that?
 
Because a default constructor is usually in the form T() and double allows double() as an expression.
 
@ElimGarak that generator thing they delivered also had a "vague" SG vibe :p
@Morwenn fairly sure it has to
 
Well, a simple non-global declaration will be garbage ridden, a default constructor in place would imply consistent behavior across the board.
 
@Morwenn unless...I suppose they could overload as T&& operator*() &&, but you'd only be able to capture that using a const ref
 
auto&&
 
11:15 AM
but not int&
 
Yeah, right.
 
double() was merely a way of introducing a familiar way of initializing a variable (0.0). But it's not really a constructor.
But some people do think of it as such, conceptually, at least. No particular crime there.
 
It is default constructible but it does not have a default constructor
 
Yes.
 
11:18 AM
Which I believe is a pretty meaningless distinction
 
It's one of the things that won't get you smeared on the walls of the Lounge if you get it wrongish.
 
@ElimGarak I can assure you my music taste is not - on average - characterized by yesterday's choice :) Ask @CoinCoin or, well anyone who watched the rest
But that soundtrack is nice and moody
 
@sehe Oh, I know you are also a classical music buff IIRC.
 
Are there "Legions of programmers" there yet? A lot of them are peasant web devs. Only one of the glorious boost master race.
 
11:25 AM
lel. So overtly biased
 
The comment they had that programmers won't use their platform due to a lack of time, I half-expected that to be the case, too.
 
Streaming doesn't take time.
 
Shiet, I might go for it and stream some DirectX 12 coding sessions, some cool rendering demos. But doubt it people will invest 4 hours into it.
 
Jun 29 at 22:10, by sehe
So, in reverse psychology it seems tempting to try to keep the focus/stay honest
@ElimGarak Well, I'm not sure what drives the viewers. But you get some viewers anyways, IME and it doesn't have to be viewers that follow everything, or even collaborate (although I've had viewers point out errors and search docs)
Hah, I like that quote better. It is reverse psychology
 
From the stuff you've seen and obviously done, do you think the site will actually stick around? Seems like a fat expense, technology wise.
 
11:33 AM
Jun 29 at 22:10, by sehe
@Prismatic I'm thinking I couldn't imagine doing livecoding like that. I'd be forced to face how much I get distracted
@ElimGarak Not really. It's pretty clear they don't know how design the UI. I don't know their business model either
 
Yeah, I actually tried figuring it out and got nowhere ( the business model ). I am pretty sure they're losing money.
 
Yup. The usual model then. Burn down and exit
 
@sehe Its a YCombinator start up
 
user1804599
implemented TCO yay
 
So no one knows what the business model is
 
user1804599
11:39 AM
  private def optimizeInsts(insts: List[(InstID, Inst)]): List[(InstID, Inst)] =
    insts.reverse match {
      case (_, RetInst(retvalID)) +: (callID, call: CallInst) +: xs if callID == retvalID =>
        ((callID, call.copy(tailcall = true)) +: xs).reverse
      case _ => insts
    }
 
Yup. So that explains how they exist. Nothing about how they intend to stay around
 
user1804599
so simple
 
@Prismatic hehe
 
One thing I can imagine making a profit is liveart. Probably exists.
 
Stream sites get money by playing ads and taking a cut of donations and subscriptions their streamers get
 
11:40 AM
@sehe or ...
 
@Prismatic Yup. None of that applies, AFAIK
 
Everyone send me 100$ and I'll tell you the secret to making easy money.
 
hi
 
@MaiLongdong Send me $1000 and I'll triple it. (EVE Online scam)
 
11:40 AM
@MaiLongdong do you accept paypal?
 
@chmod711telkitty ornithology got to ornithe
 
Do you accept playball?
 
No I deleted my paycunt account when they upgraded their ~~privacy~~ policy
 
livelounging.tv | Watch the chat from a regular's perspective. Watch @sehe write insults, delete, compose and write a calm message.
10
 
user1804599
livejasmin
 
11:41 AM
Also if I were to stream me coding I would probably go on Twitch
Or Twich, or whatever is called
 
I didn't know ebay & paypal used to wear one pair of trousers ... until they split
 
> With Twitch,” he said, “you end up with a whole bunch of gamer people, and, frankly, a whole bunch of trolls. On Livecoding, you get people who are into the programming — not necessarily brainiacs, but people that are really into code. Which makes it a lot easier to converse and joke
@ElimGarak that happens :) I've always done that. And now you can see it :S
 
That's because I haven't gotten on Livecoding yet
 
At least my viewers don't have to walk through a painful UI experience to get to the chat.
 
@sehe IOW another community
 
11:43 AM
Yes
 
What's that starred link about @sehe?
 
Might not want that kind of population anyway.
 
Twitch's audience is composed primarily of folks who want to play the smartass in the comments.
 
@MaiLongdong Exactly what you imagine
 
Sucks, but glad to hear you got a new job that quickly!
 
11:44 AM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ agreed
 
Nah, you guys are cool.
 
flagging as offensive
 
You are just pedantic, which is acceptable. :)
 
@MaiLongdong Oh wait, another starred message. Now I'm confused. Let me find the one you referred to
 
Also, I half expected people to be dicks on livecoding, going by the usual programmer ego.
 
11:45 AM
it's crazy how the latest far cry works like AC
 
I don't mind pigs being sexists, coz I love bacon
 
@ElimGarak Programmers being dicks?? I would never...
 
@ElimGarak All Livecoding users are actually Bartek alts.
 
@MaiLongdong I'm not a Bartek alt, and I did spend 2 hours watching @sehe code yesterday.
 
howtoajoke.rar
 
11:46 AM
It was strangely satisfying seeing someone else solve ALL THE PROBLEMS :P
 
succulent roasted pigs ... ummm
 
@MaiLongdong can't find it (thought you meant this)
 
@sehe The Ubuntu pastie one
 
user1804599
sehe when u livecoding
 
@MaiLongdong Actually never had a Bartek in the audience (except @nabijaczleweli the first 20 minutes :))
 
11:47 AM
@sehe That doesn't make sense. No one is going to watch your coding stream unless they want to watch someone writing software. Relatively speaking its pretty damn boring to watch someone type stuff into an editor... you're not going to run into a bunch of problems with trolls or unrelated audience
 
@MaiLongdong can't even find it. But I posted only one paste, which was a transcript from livecoding chat there. It's about my "settlement agreement" with my current employer.
Date will be end of september, not applied for any new jobs yet.
 
@sehe ouch :(
 
user1804599
I want to introduce a weird keyword but I can't think of any.
 
@elyse wierd
 
@sehe Oh, I must have misunderstood the text, then.
 
user1804599
11:48 AM
XD
 
@elyse armpit
 
@Prismatic It was about twitch. And it was his experience. I was quoting the article linked before
 
user1804599
@ScarletAmaranth what'd it do?
 
I'm thinking about streaming my NES programming
 
@TonyTheLion It wasn't unexpected. My boss just made a blooper by forwarding me internal conversation exposing that "they" had been willing to pay me ~2x the settlement ... That was a bit explosive
 
11:49 AM
Livecoding is relatively unknown right now. Eventually, there will be dicks and trolls.
 
@elyse I didn't get that far in my thought process
 
user1804599
XD
 
@ElimGarak That
 
@sehe ah I see.
 
@ElimGarak Yes I'm looking for the register button as we speak
 
11:50 AM
@MaiLongdong oh you
 
user3883753
Watching: Arsenal VS NewCastle oi58.tinypic.com/2zzkhhe.jpg
 
@TonyTheLion I'll talk to him on monday. But at least I clued him in on the fact that I had read this conversation by now
 
user1804599
did you get fired sehe
 
@sehe I suggest you push the issue for 2.5x now. Politely. :P
 
@elyse Nope. Mutual agreement. The work is done. And I'm not really comfortable "sitting it out" till end of November either
 
user1804599
11:51 AM
nice
 
I need more coffee
 
user1804599
Hmm.
 
@sehe wow :/
 
user1804599
Implementing constant folding should be incredibly easy.
 
Man, I'm so hungry and the delivery will be in an hour or so.
 
11:53 AM
People need better logic in their conversations, for example there is no proven correlation between being pedantic & being sexist pigs, so the population of pedantic sexist pigs would only be a very small subset of the whole population. On the other hand, there is a correlation between being a dick & being a mediocre troll. So being a dick or a troll is less than the sum of all dicks plus all trolls
 
user1804599
Well, some things might be tricky.
 
@chmod711telkitty wat
 
user3883753
WTF @chmod711telkitty
 
Who the fuck is flagging telkitty
 
set theory ... from statisitcs
 
11:54 AM
Do not flag our pet
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ elim I assume
 
user3883753
star as interesting
 
user1804599
Say you have let x = 1; let y = 0; x / y. Should the constant folding optimisation ignore x / y, or should it turn that into throw ZeroDivisionError{}?
 
emit UB2
 
user3883753
Exception
 
11:55 AM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ No point in flagging, it does nothing.
 
It throws Lori out of the lounge, that's for sure.
 
Sino & Jeffrey starred it. Just waiting for snipe now.
 
user1804599
If the constant folder ignores it, then it will still result in an exception at runtime, of course, but there'd still be a call to /.
 
@ElimGarak Liar
 
emit UB2
 
11:56 AM
Jeffrey pulled out. :P
 
inb4 penistar
win
 
congrats
 
@MaiLongdong lol
 
user1804599
Yeah I guess converting it into an exception throw is a good idea.
 
@MaiLongdong Yup. Honestly I don't know how to feel. I mean, I already signed and felt it was a fair deal. And I really think my boss was integral about it too (the higher bids were proposed by legal/HR, and they don't know much about me, nor Dutch law).
 
user1804599
11:58 AM
Because it's faster and allows for more code to be eliminated.
 
So the bad taste is merely in him saving money on my account
> For instance, watch “donmildreone” (British web designer Ben Mildren) as he tries to get up and running on a new Mac. On the one hand: Really? On the other: For better or worse, this is what most programmers spend much of their time doing.
Truth.
 
@elyse Why is that a problem?
 
@sehe It sure leaves a sour taste, yeah.
 
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ It isn't.
 
What if I want to log how many times / is called?
Shouldn't that example qualify as one?
 
11:58 AM
@chmod711telkitty yup. People need better logic in their monologues
 
user1804599
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ You'd have to change the definition of /, which you can't do, since it's in the standard library.
 
You are violating DRY
 
@sehe it's not a monologue when it has responses right?
 
You are throwing the exception in two places checking for the same exact condition.
 
Ell
I wonder if I could livecode anything interesting
 
11:59 AM
It's a moronlogue!
8
 
user1804599
Isn't that DRY?
 
@chmod711telkitty it's not a rhetorical question when you receive a return rhetorical, right?
 
@chmod711telkitty Responses shooting down a monologue are not a dialogue.
 
@StackedCrooked lol
 
Yeah, sorry, meant DRY
 
user1804599
12:00 PM
Also optimizers can generate duplicate code just fine. In fact, they do so all the time. You're never going to maintain code generated by an optimizer anyway.
 
@Ell You could implement a program that prints the triangle of pascal :)
It was one of my first programming exercises ever.
 
@MaiLongdong You did?
 
@Ell You could dox telkitty.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ yes
irrevocably so
 
as a segue¹, critigue should be spelled to match

¹ yes, merkins, that's not segway
 
12:01 PM
@elyse Do you have to change the type of the exception in two places if you need to change it?
@MaiLongdong Where's the proof.
 
user1804599
No, because you don't change code generated by an optimizer.
 
You can change the optimizer. But it won't be an optimizer anymore. :P
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Stargazer logs. Sorry.
 
user1804599
Note: we're talking about the optimizer turning x / y into throw ZeroDivisionError{} at compile-time when it can prove y is 0. It's not the programmer who's doing this.
 
@MaiLongdong That's not a reliable source
 
12:02 PM
Neither are you
 
People could have edited it in
 
Stargazer is the best tool for discovering the star treachery of our fellow Loungers.
 
@MaiLongdong True, that's why you have to demonstrate I starred anything
 
user1804599
Time to play some Terraria. Anybody wanna join?
 
Yessss
 
12:03 PM
Hmm. What a beautiful Saturday this is... or would be, if the burger place that's half the city away from me made deliveries on weekends :/
 
Ah I don't have it on my laptop :(
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Nope
Proof of burden always goes on Jefffrey
It is known
 
Ell
The best burger I've had in my life was in Sweden near midsommerkransen
 
@Griwes Better than waiting 2 hours for it.
 
@ElimGarak Not really - I want to sit at home whole day :/
 
find a burger place closer to you
 
12:05 PM
Well. The only course of action from here is probably getting a kebab again. :D
@unordered_meow The only ones that do not suck are at least as far as that one :/
 
Ell
Make your own burgers
 
meh
too much work
 
Ell
It's easy man
 
Whoah whoah whoah Trine 3 already?!
 
Ell
Mincemeat, an egg or yolk, mustard, Worcester sauce, salt & pepper
very finely diced onions
 
12:08 PM
Yeah. And a lot of work. :P
 
lettuce? tomato?
 
I'm lazy.
 
Ell
Mush it all up in a bowl and fry it or grill it
 
I feel like lamb chops
 
Ell
@griwes the work makes it all the more satisfying ;)
 
12:09 PM
I can make myself some spaghetti... that's not too much work, but then again, I just want something ready :/
@Ell ...
 
Ell
Ordering takeaway is the equivalent of writing php
5
 
...
 
@Griwes spaghetti bolognese?
 
Ell
Man I.want to .make a burger now
 
@Ell where are you guys atm?
 
12:13 PM
my ATM is three blocks down the road
 
@ElimGarak Nah, just spaghetti. But then again, I guess it's kebab day.
 
@chmod711telkitty wow. you figured it out. And ew
 
Two and a half weeks from now I'll be in Bellevue; I guess it'll be easier to eat a good burger there. :D
 
I am hungry :(
@ 10:15pm
 
12:16 PM
stop looking at porn then
> I don't get to write very often about productivity these days. I'm too busy doing things. There's some sad irony there. hehe
 
Oh. I'll finally be able to find out what that poutine thing really is.
 
The image results returned when searching for the term 'damsel in distress' looked much like porn
 
Ell
I want to make poutine but I can't find cheese curds anywhere :(
@Andy Vienna
Sitting outside the schmetterling haus :)
 
cool
 
Ell
12:25 PM
Hmm I could make my own Cheese curds
 
@Ell then make poutine with them :)
 
Ell
Yes
This.is a good idea
All I need is milk and rennet and one other thing
 
@kikitux @meetingcpp @isocpp @stroustrup @clion_ide Am I missing something https://upload.wikimedia.org/math/7/4/d/74d191cba08a88c2018cfd67fbc52dd1.png #Binet Formula https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number#Closed-form_expression
 
@sehe ew floating point stuff :p
 
well
 
12:35 PM
@unordered_meow nice one
 
@sehe You seem to enjoy Twitter much, do you manage to get into interesting conversations?
 
Nope.
 
I've tried so many times to get Twitter, but it's difficult when you're anti-social.
Alright, managed to follow all the regulars, shouldn't be shit this time around.
 
Point in case
@kikitux (code is a mass noun) and here's an application: http://stackoverflow.com/a/7843295/85371
@ElimGarak Actually, it's perfect for those. Because there's no real need to interact. In fact, it's discouraged, I feel
It's just consumption and forwarding
 
Followed John Oliver for good measure.
 
12:43 PM
@sehe I'm kinda curious if you could constexpr it out
 
I'm p. sure you cannot. Floats aren't even allowed as non-type template args
 
I am boiling some soybean sprouts coz I am hungry & it's late :'(
 
@sehe too bad... there is nothing in that sample that couldn't in theory be computed at compile time
 

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