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1:00 PM
Google got big for solving a really trivial issue at the beginning of the WWW. That doesn't mean their code isn't shit.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes protobuf's pointer crap :(
 
Also, appealing to authority ends badly in 100% cases.
 
you cannot take a pointer to memory you don't own, much less write to it, but thats the only way to set a pin on a microcontroller
 
@gnzlbg That's not UB.
 
1:01 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes the memory did not came from new/malloc
 
@gnzlbg I mean, the first part of the sentence is UB, but the second part isn't. And the two are not related.
@gnzlbg Irrelevant.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes I do the ... 7th? one currently, but flipped the other way around (x instead of x')
 
@Xeo Haven't tried it, but doesn't seem as amenable to finger tricks.
 
how so? int * a = some hex code; // do something with a
if the address doesn't came from new/malloc it is UB to dereference it
 
At least not for my set of finger tricks.
 
1:03 PM
is like getting some memory from malloc and accessing the memory just before it
 
@gnzlbg No, it isn't. There are plenty of non-new/non-malloc addresses that are dereferenceable, even in non-microcontrollers.
 
@gnzlbg no, UB is UB
 
int x = 0;
int* a = &x; // not from malloc
*a;
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
1:05 PM
malloc and new are red herrings.
 
pointers and dereference have nothing in common with new or malloc
people sometimes use them together vOv
 
user1804599
@gnzlbg what about memory you pwn?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes i said memory you don't own above
 
int *a = static_cast<int*>(mmap(...)); // not from malloc either
@gnzlbg Yes, and that's why the first part of the sentence is true (that is UB), but it makes the second part unrelated.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I see yes it is unrelated.
 
1:08 PM
The "dangerous" results of reinterpret_cast are implementation-defined.
 
@StackedCrooked Of course. :)
 
The danger mostly comes from the schmuck programmer.
 
> A value of integral type or enumeration type can be explicitly converted to a pointer. A pointer converted to an integer of sufficient size (if any such exists on the implementation) and back to the same pointer type will have its original value; mappings between pointers and integers are otherwise implementation-defined.
 
 
int* a = reinterpret_cast<int*>(0x123456789ABCDEF); isn't always UB.
 
1:09 PM
@ElimGarak Beautiful.
@ScarletAmaranth int& x = *(new int(42)); :3
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Beautiful.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes in GCC type pruning and reinterpet_cast behavior are well defined
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes y no dead beef in there?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes in kernel mode code this is almost required sometimes
 
TYPE PUNNING.
 
1:12 PM
@Mgetz Yes, and it involves no UB there. That's the point.
 
@Mgetz Why?
 
UB is simply not acceptable.
 
@ElimGarak thanks :)
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Hardware memory-mapped addresses
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ because occasionally you need to do DMA to hardware
 
1:13 PM
To prune a type is to remove it from consideration.
 
@chmod711telkitty no, they're very similar visually
 
@Mr.kbok they also have a common theme :D
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why?
 
@Xeo One thing I hate about speedsolving.com is that the algos don't have finger trick groupings.
 
I vote for forcing @ElimGarak to change avatar
 
1:14 PM
@gnzlbg Because "mappings between pointers and integers are otherwise implementation-defined."
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Obsidian Order protests.
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I'm almost sure he's had his longer than me
 
Actually, I can find a more beauty Elim.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes mh
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes, getting a pointer from an int is implementation defined, dereferencing that pointer is what I dont understand, you dont own the memory, you got it from an int, so it might point anywhere
 
1:15 PM
@gnzlbg And the implementation says it points to where some hardware memory/register/pin/whatever lives.
 
for that particular integer
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What if the int is allocated in an ISIS-controlled region of memory?
 
Yes. So what? If it's a bad integer it's not needed.
 
So if it's a bad integer it's UB?
 
Yes.
But those cases where you have no choice are never UB.
 
1:16 PM
Nice to know, I thought that doing that was always UB.
 
@ElimGarak Ok...:
 
It just happen to work on that particular implementation
 
PUNNING
(and now?)
 
@sehe I was doing it wrong all along
 
Experience shame and anticipate punishment.
 
1:17 PM
pruning sounded better tho :/
 
@ElimGarak then dereferencing may detonate the int
 
It's more natural too
@melak47 You mean decapitate and post vid to YT
Hej. Buurman & buurman
And a NullPanther
 
@sehe They decapitated a Croatian just a week or two ago. Matter of fact, girlfriend's family friend.
 
@Xeo Say, the one I mentioned is x (R' U R') D2 (R U' R') D2 R2 x' which makes it essentially five moves (and a lot easier to memorize), but since speedsolving shows everything without groupings it's hard to judge which of the other tens of algos are good candidates for replacements.
 
Xeo
Yeah, I know what you meant.
 
1:19 PM
@ElimGarak Yeah. Savages.
@ElimGarak WAT
You should get luckier friends. ASAP. Plx
 
Yeah, I've noticed that a lot of shit happens. But girlfriend's family friend... It could be worse. Dude went to Egypt to provide for his family and bam.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Reminds me, I saw one solving strategy that had you never turn the cube (no x, y, z). That sounded really nice, but I didn't actually read too far into it.
 
The news outlets still don't believe it is him, though, in the photograph. But they're just clinging to hope. Maintaining prisoners is not cheap.
 
Xeo
IIRC it was only L, U, R
 
1:21 PM
@sehe but would you wish more luck on yourself or your friends?
 
I was going to learn that, but then I signed up for GN and decided to delay it until I'm done with that.
 
@Xeo ruler of Persei Omicron 8
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Not really easy to find a replacement, all are tonally similar.
 
@ElimGarak wow croatia is really a small country
 
Star Trek sucks
 
1:24 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ No.
@Mr.kbok Yes.
 
Wouldn't be a stretch to say you can go to the other side of the country and still meet someone you know.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes ye, that
 
EOLine is really hard, though.
You orient all edges as the very first step.
Then all algos are edge-orientation-invariant.
 
Robot is really passionate about cubes.
 
1:26 PM
If you fumble, it's hard to recover because you may need to reorient edges.
While in a method with more free-form algos if you fumble you can simple resume a solve from any point as if nothing happened and that happened to be the configuration you had.
 
Is that fo' real?
 
@ElimGarak how about this...
 
I'll take it. Thought about this, but too rapey.
 
(now I gotta find a matching Picard...)
 
1:30 PM
all these star trek nerds
 
Star Trek represents hope for this shitty planet. Also, starships & space exploration. My favorite fapping subjects.
 
it represents hope for insomniacs
because that shit puts me to sleep
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, I can see that
 
user840210
@AlexM. @AlexM. Am ajuns la profilul tau de la un raspuns dat de tine si mi-a atras atentia ca esti din Cluj si joci CS:GO :p
 
I understood that.
 
1:33 PM
Reference.
 
user1804599
> Tokkies gonna Tokkie, auch Deutsche Tokkies
 
user1804599
three languages in a single news article subtitle
 
Anybody here uses toilet water ass-splash prevention methods?
 
user1804599
yes
 
user1804599
plateau toilets
 
1:36 PM
Excellent.
 
"Once the inspection is over, the toilet will be flushed… and the bowl cleaned as necessary using the brush provided."
 
user1804599
the one true toilet design
 
And there will be shit all over the brush.
 
user1804599
apply toilet paper first to prevent sticky poo from sticking to toilet
 
1:38 PM
Good idea. Here's an idea for the universe. Dry shit that turns to powder on exit.
 
@ElimGarak I've always been really passionate about all of my interests :S When I was in elementary school the teacher actually warned my parents about the possibility of Asperger's. Nowadays people just say that that's something they like about me, being passionate about stuff. Passionless people are boring; passionate people can make any subject seem interesting.
 
user1804599
apply fan or open window eat healthy to prevent stinky poo from making the entire bathroom stink
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I like how you're so passionate.
 
Telkitty, seriously. How are you still not serving a prison sentence somewhere?
@TonyTheLion Yeah, that's pretty cool.
 
1:42 PM
why would I?
besides, pissing bad people off is really good for society
 
@chmod711telkitty so that means I should not back off from pissing you off endlessly?
 
@TonyTheLion <3
 
what's with the no plonking?
 
whats with you still being in this room?
has anyone told you how ridiculously annoying you are?
 
Seriously, why are you here? Genuine question.
 
1:45 PM
Guys don't be mad. Telkitty is part of the Lounge flora and fauna.
 
Good morning!
 
@ElimGarak Something about elite trolls. Mostly harmless.
 
Ell
Yes telkitty is anchovies
 
@Nooble Good morning <3
 
@Nooble Heyooooooo
 
1:46 PM
@ElimGarak <3
@nabijaczleweli oooooooooyeH
 
@MarcoA. Just be homeless (keep your job, though). Chicks dig that.
 
I mean, Telkitty, it's so easy to get along with people. Especially people in the Lounge. And you somehow manage to fuck it up.
 
@Nooble Wow it really is morning there
 
@nabijaczleweli Yes.
 
@ElimGarak She wants to fuck it up, there's a difference
 
1:47 PM
@Nooble Mumbel, plz
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ like a chronic disease
 
I am just surprised how tenacious she is. I half expected her to be gone by the time I returned.
 
I like her
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
1:53 PM
lol
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ By doing that you are just encouraging here to continue her shitty ways
 
I've personally never seen telkitty being shitty.
 
@elyse Seems pretty generic? Is it any good?
 
user1804599
I don't know.
 
user1804599
1:54 PM
I'm not going to buy it.
 
@Nooble You'll get there, don't worry
 
Why isn't Telkitty in the Ministry of Fame exactly?
 
@ElimGarak she should be there
most people have just plonked her and forgotten she is even here
 
AgainstASicilian was sehe in comparison to Telkitty.
 
@chmod711telkitty As a NCR supporter, this makes me smile.
 
1:55 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Awe, true to Caesar.
 
New California Republic
 
@ElimGarak There's no Ministry of Fame.
 
@ElimGarak New California Republic
 
Shit
Yeah. Brain fart.
 
1:57 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes loungecpp.net/the-law/fame
 
I got a shirt with their flag on it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Tony's link.
 
Er, CAT FUCKED UP
 
hahaha
 
It's the MiniFame, aka Ministry of Shame.
 
1:57 PM
I once had a discussion about FNV with three other people, and each of us had followed a different ending on our first playthrough.
@R.MartinhoFernandes Are you surprised? It's not like he's got any culture.
 
I always start a playthrough to do something new, but I always end up striving for an Independent Vegas. First thing I do is sneak in and shut off Mr. House. Annoying condescending prick, especially to a programmer.
 
I actually felt really bad killing that guy.
Also, why is the "good karma" option the one where you leave him alive but unplugged?
 
Not sure, that seems like a fate worse than death. And every time you talk to him, he just cusses at you.
 
He's gonna spend the rest of his live essentially blind and unable to interact with the world around him.
Is it because Fallout considers that the only bad action is murder?
Come to think of it, many games do that.
 
I love the conversation option "Oh, shit, let me just put you back."
ahahah
If that were an option, he'd probably kill you the moment you went outside.
I try to like him because he's Odo from DS9, but his lines get the better than me.
 
2:02 PM
When you think about it, his only mistake was trusting you.
And since you're an almighty Video Game Protagonist, that's really all he needs to do to fail.
 
When you're in a metal box in a basement and you address someone with Intelligence 10 and Science 100, you need to watch your mouth. :D
If he were just a little bit more emphatic, I'd back him. He has weird ideas of autocracy. Order, sure. But not much fun.
 
" Obviously that was necessary for the story, but still... at the very least he could have been less condescending. That's pretty much my only reason for betraying him on every playthrough."
Guess I'm not the only one.
One thing I'd like for game design to figure out is how to deliver information to the player without making the character you roleplay as stupid relative to the game world. Shepard, considered as the hotshot of the Systems Alliance and a SPECTRE candidate, doesn't know shit about the Protheans, on whose back Earth got to space.
One way is to let the player choose for him to get information from the NPC or explain something instead of the NPC. Less/more educated. Valuable character definition.
 
@EtiennedeMartel that's a grim thing to read in isolation (see also Metalica - One)
 
@chmod711telkitty lol
 
2:16 PM
@ElimGarak That's the problem with exposition.
When your character is more well informed than the audience, how do you give them the necessary information?
 
Well, maybe based on some intelligence metric. For example, I remember asking Legion a shitload of stupid questions. A smart Shepard might actually pose a question in a way which only requires confirmation from Legion, along with his classic addendums.
 
A good example is the "as you know" type conversations: character A says something character B already knows because the audience is listening and they don't know about it. Gives the impression that A is actually talking to the audience and not B, which breaks the fourth wall and therefore immersion.
 
Addendum: The inside of this space station is not shielded.
 
@ElimGarak Nobody does though
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah, problematic. :/
 
2:21 PM
The easy solution is to have a character who knows as much as the audience. An "audience surrogate".
 
It's very limiting
 
This is why so many series focus on a newcomer.
 
Yeah, but justifying his presence is difficult at all times.
 
That's what they do in Baldur's gate. Blank sheet character. Raised in an insular city away from the world
 
I also remember terrible examples of presumption. LA Noire's LIE option. Terrifying responses.
 
2:23 PM
@EtiennedeMartel It's also the only way to justify the tremendous progression in skill during the game
I always hate when you play the sequel of a game and the character who is a demigod at the end of the first opus is a peasant a few days later
 
But some factor of smart/stupid was incorporated into Fallout, though. Playing with intelligence 1 is fun. Wasn't fully voiced, though. We probably won't see that in F4.
 
@Mr.kbok I liked how AC Brohood did it: if you had a completed AC2 save file, then the game started you off with the equipment and skills you had at the end of AC2. Then you get to play the first mission with that, then Monteriggioni gets attacked, Ezio gets wounded, loses his stuff, and then you start over.
But at least there was some acknowledgement that, hey, there was a game before this one.
 
Yeah, that was nice.
 
@ElimGarak omg laffo
UH OH LOOKS LIKE I MADE A MISTAKE
 
"Looks like I made a mistake".
ahahahah, but that speech before.
"You like fucking young boys, Valdez?" - Cole Phelps, LAPD.
 
2:30 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah, also he's wounded and has to recover, so his skills gets worse.
 
Having twists in games also damages replay value. All those homicides in LA Noire were actually committed by a serial killer and you knowingly had to put away innocent people on multiple playthroughs. Barely went through the game three times. But, there won't be LA Noire 2 as Team Bondi went under, $30 million in the hole.
 
@EtiennedeMartel OH GOD DON'T TAKE MY STUFF AWAY FUCK OFF.
That's such a boring and annoying trope.
 
If your game has character progression in it, then you have to start over at the beginning.
 
Yeah, it's a necessary evil.
 
That's why Samus loses her gear at the start of Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 2.
(Although I like how in MP2 it gets stolen and then you spend the rest of the game hunting for your stuff)
 
2:35 PM
One day, we'll have separate progressions for new and old players. But probably in some massive, branching AAA game.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yes, fuck that trope.
 
@ElimGarak If your game has a somewhat open world and has dynamic difficulty, then it could be easy to just import an existing character.
@R.MartinhoFernandes And that's why you're not a game designer ;)
 
If Robot were to make a game, he'd actually have to accept that trope, at some level, at least. But we'd have to wait for a sequel. :P
Solving the trope: make a prequel. :P
 
@ElimGarak Nope.
Just be creative.
 
Pitch an idea, then.
 
2:38 PM
Stealing your stuff is just cheap.
 
Well, we're all ears, genuinely!
 
How would you solve that particular problem?
 
I can already see players ripping me a new one if I allow the old players to be more awesome than the new ones.
 
Game design? It's more like just bluntly ensuring you can design the same game again.
 
I had some plans lying around for a game series (more like I just have basic gameplay ideas and a bunch of lore), and my ideas revolved around having a different player character for each title in the series.
 
2:40 PM
@EtiennedeMartel No generic solutions. That's just picking a different trope.
 
Yeah, but understanding the internet as it is now, people would get upset due to emotional attachment to the original character.
 
Would allow you to explore radically different gameplay ideas (each character would have a different set of skills and traits). Also, you could have your fully geared previous character as a boss or something.
 
Don't get me wrong, I can still enjoy those games, but I really think it's a cheap cop-out.
 
In Mafia 2, you kill the protagonist of Mafia 1. Which you also see at the end of Mafia 1. Only more HD.
 
Xeo
I didn't mind it for Metroid Prime 2, since I never played the prequel(s)
 
2:41 PM
"We couldn't think of a way to continue your progression, so we decided you should do it all again".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's almost as bad as the hero washed up on the shores not knowing much of anything, but he is the chosen one!!!
 
@thecoshman Replace shore with prison and you've got every Elder Scrolls ever.
 
@ElimGarak The Elder Scrolls is a great example of a creatively bankrupt series.
They probably peaked with Morrowind and that's it.
 
@thecoshman No, it's not, because that's just a trope to justify your character's lack of knowledge. It's not for gameplay reasons.
(It's still cheap, but not really related)
 
Personally, I am quite against anything that portrays a "chosen one". I like the idea of a game where you can miss an objective and the game never tells you it was possible. It just keeps rolling. But, too punishing.
 
2:43 PM
Stealing your stuff is (over)done for game design reasons: "It's also the only way to justify the tremendous progression in skill during the game"
@ElimGarak Dunno, works fine for P&P RPGs
 
However, why is it difficult to keep your stuff and give the new player an average of the most playthroughs' inventory? And plan the game's progression from that baseline?
 
My old players never got to know the intended big bads for their first campaign.
 
how about a game in which your cat must overcome all obstacles in order to steal the food in the neighbourhood?
 
Xeo
@ElimGarak Because the prequel gave you OVERWHELMING POWER at the end or something. How do you progress from that?
 
@Xeo Ah, overwhelming. But must it do that? In general.
One way is to split the progression across games, but don't know how that would work exactly. To be the sort of underdog in the first one.
 
Ell
2:47 PM
Make the hero of each game the villain of the successive game
 
@Ell That would piss off your fan base before you say brain fart. :P
 
Xeo
@ElimGarak Sequels aren't usually planned.
Well, maybe nowadays they are.
 
> 1 ami a déjà ce jeu: elyse
 
Mass Effect was planned as a trilogy and they still fucked up the last 20 minutes.
 
@elyse How dare you put money in Konami's pockets?
 
2:49 PM
@EtiennedeMartel My experience is mostly with P&P RPGs. But I have an anecdote. In one of my campaigns the players ended up as demigods after battling the archdevil Mephistopheles. They did lose most of their equipment, but that was their fault, not intended. Their demigod powers, though? Nope. They kept those.
 
@ElimGarak Because they fired the writer before the third game, and the one they got next didn't like the arc the previous one had setup, so he rewrote the shit.
 
Yeah, Mac Walters is shit. Also, Casey Hudson.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So on your next adventure you had to crank up the difficulty level to match?
 
They got dropped into a much more punishing and unforgiving environment as demigods and got to face other big threats, and not by simply bringing in bigger bosses; almost all of those baddies they knew about beforehand, they just couldn't even think of facing them. I.e., the new baddies weren't made up for their power level. They were there already.
 
I need help naming something. Its a class template that wraps a simple data member. The class adds Get, Set and Notify methods. Get does what you would expect. Set *requests* the data be changed. The Notify method actually changes the data to what was requested in Set.

Ive been thinking I could call it some kind of 'Property' class. Is there a succinct name that represents the delayed nature of Set/Notify?
 
Ell
2:51 PM
I wonder if const and immutable need to be different concepts
 
And they fumbled a lot because they had to scramble in this world of big players as newcomers and without all the experience of the existing players.
 
I was so excited the first time I saw this.
 
I have to say, I don't like the serial escalation of infinitely scaling power.
 
They were essentially culture-shocked, and being demigods didn't help one bit with that. So they still had all that juicy power, but a lot to struggle with that wasn't necessarily related to fighting ever more powerful enemies.
 
@Prismatic DeferredWriter?
 
2:54 PM
Incoming weekend-long party.
 
DeferredProperty sounds okay I guess
 
@EtiennedeMartel The difficulty level was more or less the same. It just happened that they didn't have trouble with some kinds of obstacles anymore. They actually didn't ever fight anything harder than the archdevil they fought before. It was just a different game, with a different kind of progression. No reset buttons.
 
@Morwenn get crunk
 
It is pretty easy to underestimate the difficulty requirements. Balancing shit is the most terrifying thing in game development.
 
@Prismatic I'm not that kind of guyrl :o
 
2:57 PM
then what kind of party is it going to be
 
Fortunately for me, I just need to get the volumetric clouds to perform.
 
@Prismatic Ok, there will be alcohol, a flipper, a barbecue, probably some old and racist albums of Tintin laying around, overflowing snacks and lots of cool people.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Though I had actually planned the whole becoming demigods thing from the start and so I had all sorts of plots and characters established. In the beginning they were knowingly pawns (whether of their own will or coerced) to several of the big players. Once they stepped up their game, they just became big players themselves and had to find their own pawns.
 
@Morwenn snack overflow
 
brb calling Katt
 
2:59 PM
What's a flipper
 

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