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6:00 PM
@milleniumbug I largely recommend going trough LYAH.
 
@ScarletAmaranth E_PROGRAMMER_TOO_STUPID
 
eh, someday Puppy will also learn haskell
this room will get so much better then
 
@BartekBanachewicz ..because psychiatric hospitals have no internet access?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I tried reading it once, but I stopped before modules I think
 
6:02 PM
@MartinJames said the guy who uses delphi
 
@BartekBanachewicz :|
 
@milleniumbug also you can perhaps join us in roboarena if that thing ever gets going
@MartinJames jk I liked pascal a lot
was my first real lang
.PAS extension never forget
 
@BartekBanachewicz Not likely.
 
@Puppy I'll learn Wide if you learn Haskell.
 
I don't really go for single-paradigm languages
 
6:04 PM
@Puppy How about OCaml then
 
@BartekBanachewicz I use Delphi for many reasons, but mainly 'cos it's a bit like Java but without all the life-sapping GC cruft etc, (eg. the apps start without a 20 second delay:).
 
hmm
on a vaguely-related note, today I came across a really fucking hard problem that I desperately wanted to solve and would have solved easily with RAII, but am instead going to have to manually slap resource releases over our entire codebase instead.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I actually forgot almost all about that Pascal syntax, I was forced to learn ~30 years ago :-( ... Never used it in practice. Haskell seems to be a similar case: No use in practise.
 
Ven
@Puppy use some unique_ptr stuff?
 
if only that part of our application were written in C++.
 
Ven
6:07 PM
it's in C? :o
 
time to write something for Hate
 
Typescript
 
Ven
aaah.
 
Wordpress
 
Ven
got that backwards.
is there no using-like stuff in typescript?
 
6:07 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ You guys keep complaining how you've never used Haskell but the only way to use is to use it you know :P
 
@BartekBanachewicz Lisp
 
@Puppy Which of your Wide repositories is more current? GitHub or BitBucket? I guess GitHub, but I want an official confirmation.
 
@milleniumbug github
 
@BartekBanachewicz I've never used Haskell, but I'm not complaining:)
 
6:08 PM
@Ven There is not, but even if there were, it would not be applicable because using is a thousand miles from real raii
 
Ven
@Puppy i mean sure, but it's often better than a lot of options :)
or some try finally. idk
 
@BartekBanachewicz It seems it isn't worth the efforts for me to learn it, unless I could use it in a practical situation.
 
wouldn't be applicable because the determinism wanted applies to things other than the current call stack.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ You can use it in a practical situation.
How proficient are you with python?
Could you just sit down and write a full-fledged something in python?
We're always unsure of the unknown. vOv
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm a bare metal c++ programmer. Python only appears aside, for ideas to implement embedded devices' web interfaces.
 
Ven
6:10 PM
"bare metal"
how can you not pull your hair out
 
@πάνταῥεῖ See, that doesn't mean that python can't be used in practical situation. You're just not familiar with it.
It gets some time together to gain confidence :)
Is Haskell worth that time? Well. YMMV.
 
Python effectively targets it's intended use case.
 
^It's mostly just not relevant in my field, yes.
 
Python is p much a GP language right now
 
@πάνταῥεῖ What, you never need e.g. build scripts?
 
6:13 PM
or web apps
 
^GNU make
 
Python > make
 
make is an absolute piece of shit compared to python build tools
it's like not even in the same category
 
@BartekBanachewicz You could have stopped after 'shit'
 
6:16 PM
@Puppy I don't like anything above GNU make, controlling it (e.g like CMake or whatever). make is powerful enoug, and I don't like to mess with higher level generator's problems of any kind.
 
Make is not portable, Make is not usable, Make is not logical, Make is not easy to use, Make is typical example of "UNIX programmer" invention.
 
meta lol: 'Please remove the suspension, thank you'
......
'The suspension lasts until 2043, so why would you expect it to be lifted? Its also network wide'
 
@MartinJames The world will end 5 years before it, so why bother.
 
@milleniumbug lol
 
@milleniumbug That's not entirely true. make is well ported for non unix systems (see MSys)
 
6:17 PM
1
Q: C++ optimizer removal of object with side effects

bd2357This is not currently a problem, but I am concerned if the code gets ported or we change compilers. I have code with a block { MyClass myObj; // copy some other variables but never touch myObj . . } // expect destructor to be called on myObj where myObj is never used in the block...

 
@πάνταῥεῖ Try writing make clean for your Makefile
 
seriously...
 
It uses your shell which means it's inherently non-portable.
 
I think I should learn F#
 
@BartekBanachewicz then you could do Xamarin mobile development
 
6:18 PM
altough I can't help but to read it as F Shit
 
@milleniumbug Did that well, using make templates and stuff, so what?
 
@Mgetz and numerous other things on .NET, indeed
why does it have to be so annoying to use though
fucking mutability
 
@πάνταῥεῖ So boilerplate (which reduces the problem to "Make is not usable")
 
fucking uncurried functions
fucking million ways to declare types
7 specific syntax extensions for 7 specific monads
and this is coming from Microsoft, the company with probably the most haskell involvement of all
I just can't get past its annoyances despite numerous trials
I need an experienced F# dev to pair code with me
lol maybe I could look on codementor
 
@BartekBanachewicz Mutability is a perfectly useful tool... when applied appropriately.
 
6:21 PM
@milleniumbug That's nonsense. You just have to use it well. Our buildsystems support a wide variety of hosts and cross build target sytems, and works pretty good. Powers of make might be beyond of your conceptions.
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz f# is basically "any sacrifice so that we can get .net", really
 
@Puppy most of the time it just makes it harder to reason about programs though
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Powerful is immaterial if the price is a thousand man-hours for each code file compiled.
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz get used to (foo(bar,baz)) or method this.Foo or...
 
6:21 PM
@BartekBanachewicz That's not really "appropriately" though.
 
Ven
Or the fact this shit infers terrible types everywhere
fucking eta-expansion :(
 
@Ven :/
did they FUBAR it
did they really
 
Ven
The good thing in f# are computational expressions (basically do-expression on jet fuel) and active patterns (funny pattern matching)
 
personally I mainly use mutability because it's mostly immutable but I'm building it and fuck factoring another 10,000 functions out, or because it's performance-critical conceptually-immutable anyway, e.g. caches
 
I am not sure whether I should learn JS or F# really
 
6:22 PM
I'd pick JS
 
@Puppy "thousand man-hours", no it wasn't a thousand and we just did it once.
 
it's a shit language but at least when you're done you could achieve something.
 
I'm pretty good at JS already I think
@Puppy F# has .NET
 
meh
 
@BartekBanachewicz what is wrong with F#? MS?
 
6:23 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ I can apply the same reasoning to batch files.
 
@JohanLarsson see above
 
It's just as general.
 
I don't really see any compelling reason to use F# over C#
 
(FWIW batch files are easier to write)
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'd use some js
 
6:23 PM
@Puppy ADTs
 
nope
 
I don't like it either, but it's definitely widely used
 
@Puppy no null
 
also nope
 
Hitler is null.
 
6:24 PM
@Puppy have you ever written something nontrivial in a language with ADTs?
 
elaborate on the nope?
 
well you had in typescript
 
not in our version of typescript
 
we are on 1.2 atm and union types and such are in 1.4 or 1.5 I believe
 
6:25 PM
suck
 
holiday omg yay
 
@milleniumbug No batch files are a completely different kettle of fish. They don't have any notice about changed and newer files in the system, unless you're explicitly checking that.
 
anyway they'd only really be useful for us in a few places
 
well they really change a lot
a lot a lot a lot
 
3 weeks of college and games and staying at home
while getting paid
WooOO
swag > 9000
 
6:26 PM
I've never really understood what makes ADTs better or different.
 
@AlexM. ^ Get a pizza ...
 
@AlexM. sounds like a perfect time to learn OZ
 
@πάνταῥεῖ already got two on the way
 
@Puppy the ease of use
 
like what kind of use?
 
6:27 PM
want a real-life example?
 
ideally
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Which is the same reasoning you apply to Makefiles (yeah, it doesn't support X, but you see, you can do "high-level operation you have to provide yourself but isn't provided directly by Make", and it just works)
 
@BartekBanachewicz so... boost::variant?
 
@Puppy yes, variant is a way to get ADTs
 
6:29 PM
It's fine they provide abstraction level over batch files, it's just you need to be two levels higher than that or you just waste your time.
 
Variant is an ADT
 
but w/o pattern matching is freaking annoying to use
 
meh
 
It's A+B
 
6:29 PM
must say that although I find variant useful, there is no language support for variant required and I could invent another variant in C# or Typescript if I needed it.
 
@Puppy remember that time when you implemented pattern matching in wide?
@CatPlusPlus a sum type alright.
 
@BartekBanachewicz nope.
 
Variant is what cool people use.
 
Tuple is also an ADT
 
Variant is annoying
 
6:30 PM
@Puppy when you pretended you didn't
@CatPlusPlus tuple is a product type
@TonyTheLion what?
 
TS makes tuples pretty simple (and named members to boot)
 
And so are structs
 
heh, (a,a) is a square type ;)
 
6:30 PM
@Puppy ADTs + pattern matching built in the language makes stuff convenient.
 
so really when you say ADTs I say I appear to already have ADTs.
 
people keep blabbering about how if you choose a job you like you'll always have fun at it
 
okey actually convincing puppys isn't on my list right now
I have a problem and need some advice
 
it's not the job that makes you not have fun it's the people around you
 
@AlexM. lol
 
6:31 PM
I have a TQueue with timestamped events
 
That's naive at best
 
Well, I agree, it's a tough job to provide an "easy to use" build system based upon make. But if you once have one, your clients will be thankful not to have to learn new things like maven, ant, CMake, etc.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ no, they won't because make is a piece of shit.
don't use unless forced to.
so I need to poll that TQueue
and stop on first event that has a timestamp bigger than the threshold
 
Make is almost impossible to use properly, and it's brittle as fuck even when you manage that feat
 
That it's a tough job doesn't deny using make as it's used at the lowest level for the mentioned build systems above.
 
6:33 PM
the problem is, obviously, that once I pull it from the queue, I can't put it back
@πάνταῥεῖ people literally have to write programs generating make files because it's too retarded to be used by humans
 
From mentioned CMake can generate Makefiles, but doesn't have to
 
pretty much everyone does that
 
So really, who cares
 
@πάνταῥεῖ While it's fine that you shift the burden on yourself, mentioning CMake here is questionable - it doesn't fit this crowd.
 
Ven
@AlexM. there's part of that imho
 
6:34 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Nonsense. I want to control the build process at exactly that level, and not having anything obscure above.
 
Ven
doesn't mean it's the whole thing
 
CMake can generate CMake files.
 
If you want non-obscure build process, then make is not the tool you want
 
@πάνταῥεῖ good job controlling make debug output
totally not obscure
 
Also neither Ant nor Maven build upon Make, so it's not ~above~ anything
 
6:35 PM
neither does say SCons
 
@πάνταῥεῖ With CMake you essentially hit two ducks with one stone, since you can generate Makefiles with it - you have easier job, and users thank you.
 
or Premake
 
@BartekBanachewicz $info() and echoing on testing rules does well for me.
 
lol echoing
 
Premake does generate Makefiles
 
6:35 PM
seriously
 
@Ven wot
 
debugging via print
2015
 
Ven
@AlexM. you still need something that's fun to do.
 
I do that all the time
 
Ven
:(
why??
 
6:36 PM
@Ven welp my job is fun
 
Ven
@AlexM. amazing :D
 
no seriously make should die
 
I was saying that if something makes it go unfun
it's the people around me
 
the very existence of all of the make-writing tools should be enough to prove that
 
Ven
@AlexM. ah, this way around
 
6:36 PM
thank god I have cabal~
 
@BartekBanachewicz Not really
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz :')
 
You're supposed to generate Ninja descriptors, too
But Ninja is a much better engine than Make ever was
 
cabal at least allows me to use spaces instead of tabs
which is also another lolwtf of make
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not ashamed being a caveman in 2015. That's the proper way to debug makefiles. Tell me your superior e.g. ant debugging opportunities please.
 
Ven
6:37 PM
@BartekBanachewicz cabal allows you to get mad at your computer very swiftly
 
idiotic posix tools bullshit
 
Make is very "granular". It provides all you need, but nothing you want.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ I've never ever had to "debug" a cabal build FWIW
 
Not really
@BartekBanachewicz That's because you only deal with trivial cases :v
 
your mom is trivial
 
6:38 PM
Try using Cabal for mixed-language project
 
It's like that instruction set that has only one instruction.
 
make is terrible even for trivial cases so there's that
 
@BartekBanachewicz You probably never hit the "hairy cases" :-P
 
Build systems ain't easy
And that's why make is shit and stop using it
 
6:39 PM
Yep that's trivial
 
Cabal is not very flexible
 
well the repetitions are kinda annoying admittedly
at least they are working on it
make will forever stay shit
 
Ell
I wish we used some kind of disambiguating brackets for /s in englihs
 
wheresmypizza.jpg
 
Ell
6:40 PM
(this/that)/something else/a third option
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not even interested in spotting this. Do you cross compile for a large number of target platforms?
 
@Ell Or you know don't write crappy sentences like that
 
Ell
@CatPlusPlus it's not me that's writing theem
 
no seriously help me with the queue problem
 
Ell
6:41 PM
they need to be concise though anyway
 
what the hell can I do with that
 
What problem
 
there has to be a DESIGN PATTERN for that
 
What you want is a simple way to apply a compile command to a list of source files. Make can do that but it requires expert knowledge.
 
@StackedCrooked That's also a trivial case
 
6:42 PM
@CatPlusPlus I have a tqueue and have to poll until a timestamp is bigger than my t, but I don't want the last element and I don't know what to do with it
hmm I could perhaps move the actual polling in front of the update
 
@BartekBanachewicz sorry but what last element?
 
I wonder if I could peek at it
because peek is really what I need
 
You can peek but if you don't remove elements then you'll never get to an event you want
 
yeah well I don't want to remove the first element that doesn't satisfy my pred
I want everything that happened before some t
 
What do you need this for
 
6:44 PM
@CatPlusPlus multiple updates per draw frame
 
@BartekBanachewicz Dependencies to changed header files?? Do you handle this properly?
 
split the poll to peek and remove and simply don't remove the one you peek at (that satisfies p) vOv
 
events are pushed to a TQueue from GLFW callbacks
@πάνταῥεῖ lol to what? I write in haskell, dude.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Compilers been able to generate this info for years
 
@ScarletAmaranth yeah I've realized peek could be it
A version of peekTQueue which does not retry. Instead it returns Nothing if no value is available.
cool.
 
6:45 PM
Seriously what do you want to do with elements you don't remove
 
inspect / process in a computationally-expensive fashion maybe?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'm not talking about haskell build systems. These might be different, but no reason to throw away make for anything else than your esoteric language that covers this internally.
 
lol "esoteric"
 
esoteric is a good one :D
 
Ninja is better than Make at literally everything
 
6:47 PM
TIL: Google Cardboard.
 
@CatPlusPlus people who call haskell esoteric are unlikely to get that apparently
 
However, it's possible to design a build system purely on top of make.
 
ok I admit we kinda bashed make @πάνταῥεῖ, but it really sucks compared to alternatives.
 
@StackedCrooked See above
 
PIZZAING INTENSIFIES
 
6:48 PM
@CatPlusPlus Sure, and the output is intended to be included by makefiles, so what??
 
even when I compiled to multiple embedded targets from C++, it was a pain and I much preferred SCons :)
 
INTENSIFY FORWARD FIREPOWER
 
@CatPlusPlus they will be picked up by the next update iteration
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Doesn't mean you have to use shitty make
 
@AlexM. How large are these?
 
6:49 PM
@BartekBanachewicz You probably don't want a queue
 
also I'd be kinda bewilded if an esoteric language had a better build system than my industrial-strength one FTR
 
poop-strength
 
@CatPlusPlus why not? A peek will solve that just fine
 
ITT Haskell is an esoteric language
 
@BartekBanachewicz You can't peek beyond first element
Queue appends to the end
 
6:50 PM
he doesn't need to
 
but you know you can discard after you peek - which he will
 
@CatPlusPlus they are already sorted by time.
 
they're in order of timestamp so he only needs to peek the first
 
If you want to discard then you don't need to peek in the first place
 
@BartekBanachewicz "compared to alternatives." There aren't any. At least no reasonable ones for my field. We're using CMake, to cover incompatibilities of windows and linux host systems. But it didn't work out very well for some particular issues that aren't covered by CMake.
 
6:51 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ Cat recommended Ninja. Have you tried it?
 
@CatPlusPlus you don't know if you want to discard; you need to evaluate the predicate
 
Ninja is not a build system, it's a build system backend.
 
I am not throwing away anything
 
@ScarletAmaranth You either process or discard
 
So why should we bother to write our makefiles ourselves, and have the full control?
 
6:51 PM
I am just letting it be picked up by the next iteration
 
@CatPlusPlus but maybe you want to process differently when some predicate is true; for that, you need to first peek - I suppose?
 
I could pick all of them up and divide them in the updater though
 
@BartekBanachewicz We have make -j :-P
 
a.k.a. make -crash
 
@ScarletAmaranth Not really, you have to dequeue either way
 
6:52 PM
I get cat's point
and from a design standpoint it's probably better
 
@CatPlusPlus so you're saying you first dequeue and then dispatch further rather then keeping in the queue? (now I get it I think)
 
@milleniumbug large enough to fill me up
this evening and tomorrow
 
Ell
am I blind?
oh wait cm->m
 
I usually leave 1/2 of each for the next day
 
Ell
zooming out helped :3
 
6:53 PM
@ScarletAmaranth and divide into sections when I get a full list, I guess.
 
@BartekBanachewicz yeye @Cat might be on to something here
 
Ell
ninja is a better version of make
gnu make anyhoot
 
shit my type doesn't have a time getter and it's the last field
 
@BartekBanachewicz what are you writing with OpenGL in haskell anyway?
 
@ScarletAmaranth Hate.
 
6:54 PM
@BartekBanachewicz lol
are you really having a problem accessing a member of a type..?
 
I could lens shit out of it
 
Ninja is shit, CMake is shit, Ant and Maven are shit.
Just to compensate all of that signals that `make` is "shit". You're all just too dumb to use it correctly. That's why there are tools to make you feel less dumb.
 
@Puppy an unnamed member vOv. It's like a tagged tuple.
 
@BartekBanachewicz is it pure?
 
laffo
No, make has real, actual problems
 
6:55 PM
unnamed makes life more awkward I concur
 
there's this cat here coming after me if I interact with it
 
@melak47 on the user interface, yes.
 
I gave it some chocolate yesterday but didn't seem interested
 
oh no you just say mean things about my favourite broken tool you just can't use it properly pouts
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'll try it out sometimes... tomorrow I'm thinking
 
6:56 PM
cats be crazy, chocolate is great
 
And that's enough reading that nonsense for me
 
Xeo
Cats can't taste "sweet".
Also, if that was a dog, you'd have poisoned it.
 
@Puppy I was too lazy to write names because I pattern match them out anyway
 
@BartekBanachewicz so it's pure hate :)
 
well, FML I guess
 
6:56 PM
@Xeo Can they taste bitter?
 
Xeo
ye
 
@Xeo there was also caramel and something else only semi-poisonous
 
Xeo
they can taste everything but sweet
Cats want meat, nothing else really. (Not pig meat, mind you)
Though they do like raw eggs too, sometimes
 
@Xeo doesn't the taste of meat also involve some "sweetness" that makes the entire flavour?
 
@Xeo Well then let's add sour to get them tasting ...
 
6:58 PM
for us.
 

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