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1:00 PM
@CatPlusPlus FWIW I didn't plan for that
 
I'd lose
 
@BartekBanachewicz I have neither communication nor social skills :(
 
6 hours ago, by Mooing Duck
@BartekBanachewicz got fired so I'm online again
 
I am doomed
 
@BartekBanachewicz "Fuck I need an excuse to go back to the Lounge let's get fired on purpose"
 
1:00 PM
> good communication and social skills
ouch
 
oh well this quote doesn't show what the message meant
dumb
 
Start selling your own stuff
 
I'd love to start selling my own stuff
 
You have a company already anyway, so primo opportunity :v
 
but I have no stuff of my own to sell
 
1:01 PM
sell you soul
 
What? Freelancing?
 
lol no
 
@khajvah I don't have one
 
@khajvah Shitty exchange rate
 
well, there is always the option of prostitution
 
1:03 PM
sell your assoul you mean?
no, thanks
 
Write apps, that's the new hot thing!
 
> How many dyslexics does it change to take a light bulb?
/cc @thecoshman
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz did they not like your c++?
 
Make a flappy bird clone over a weekend and then sell hats
 
Is thecoshman dislexic?
 
Ven
1:03 PM
why don't you try a haskell company? there's got to be :/
 
@khajvah You haven't noticed?
 
noooope
 
@CatPlusPlus thought about it. But being profitable is hard.
 
being hard is profitable
 
@CatPlusPlus I have an idea for a nice niche target that could sell but see above
 
1:04 PM
Being rich is hard~
 
@Ven apparently nope.
 
becoming one is, being one shouldn't be hard
 
Make a Haskell company
 
remote jobs are either -8 or +8 timezones, nothing local
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz aw :/. did poke at f#, ocaml, or jobs like that?
 
1:05 PM
Sell support for your engine thing
 
@CatPlusPlus and then do what exactly
 
Go to conferences and shit
 
libraries
 
@CatPlusPlus that assumes someone uses it
 
make libraries
 
1:05 PM
@buttifulbuttefly How exactly is Hitler related to Java?
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's yer job then
Build a braaaaand
 
even you fuckers didn't really stick to using Hate
 
@fredoverflow Fred do you really have no basic knowledge of history?
 
Set<String> s1;
Set<String> s2;
s1.retainAll(s2);
 
how do I convince completely uknown people?
I am not a businessman or a salesman
 
1:06 PM
I kinda wish std had a nice way like this to get the intersection of two sets quickly
 
Carefully constructed marketing campaigns
 
that's from Java
 
@buttifulbuttefly Java was invented 50 years after Hitler.
 
@CatPlusPlus :dogbert.png:
 
@fredoverflow Exactly. Coincidence?
 
Xeo
1:06 PM
@AlexM. std::set_intersection.
 
Your target is ridiculous nerds
Go
 
@Xeo std::set_intersection(iter, iter, iter, iter, inserter) is so verbose
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz the lounge uses plenty enough hate already...
 
Xeo
oh, so you're on about conciseness
 
iter iter iter iter MUSHROOM MUSHROOM
 
1:07 PM
@Xeo yeah that
 
@AlexM. Yeah, but that's another problem.
 
@buttifulbuttefly Hitler perished in 1945. The null pointer was invented in 1945. Null pointer = Hitler reborn?
The hit pointler
 
Ven
:P
 
@fredoverflow It's much simpler and darker than that
 
1:08 PM
that being said
> Yup, you really helped me out! Of course I've given proper credit to you, and your repository. I will! I just submitted my report a couple days ago, and my supervisor should hopefully approve for me to put in on hackage soon! It's at a fairly decent stage where it should at least be useful to people! Thanks once again, I appreciate it!
 
Person hitler = null; hitler.wait();
 
Hate isn't a complete failure.
yet.
 
@fredoverflow Java is the censored name of "Jewva", the language developed by the SS during WW2. It features a garbage collector which collects Jews. As the name indicates.
 
How do you even brush up on your social skills? Are there any tools for that? Is Lounging enough?
 
Ever heard of the final solution?
 
1:10 PM
I wonder what does Vlad do for a living
 
@milleniumbug Lounging does not seem the best way to practice social skills
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz he doesn't write c++ code
 
@BartekBanachewicz Currently unemployed
 
@BartekBanachewicz piss people off?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I think he's like 17
 
1:10 PM
@buttifulbuttefly I know that duh
hence the question
 
@milleniumbug Talking to Cicada will worsen your social skills
 
@AndyProwl ooh
 
Ven
if the null pointer is hitler – who are the jews?
 
I think
maybe even younger
 
Vlad is genesis in disguys
 
1:11 PM
@Ven boxed integers
 
lol NYSE started a buttcoin index
 
@AndyProwl woah good one
 
I should go home
and stop writing pointless code
 
@CatPlusPlus there were some people who earned a lot of money by trading bitcoins
 
1:13 PM
but then I kinda know I would go home and write even more pointless code
 
you could become third Hate user
 
There are some people who earned a lot of money by stealing buttcoins, because everyone involved is still an idiot
 
third one still gets the badge
 
I can't Haskell and I can't OpenGL
 
Hate doesn't expose OpenGL directly
 
1:14 PM
I need moar brainz
 
why did you name it Hate?
 
cause Love already exists
 
@khajvah multiple reasons
 
@AndyProwl Can Haskell OpenGL? With Monads?
 
1:16 PM
damn I have no audio
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow with IO.
 
@fredoverflow I don't know, because I can't Haskell
 
Haskell is eez.
 
depends on brainz
btw did Robot post any update today?
 
mmm. not yet.
 
1:18 PM
@BartekBanachewicz There's a fine line between eez and eew.
 
haskell is a functional language which means you write functions
each function takes some input and returns some output
 
Ven
robot? update?
 
@BartekBanachewicz That sounds super complicated.
 
no objects, inheritance chains, references, (null) pointers...
 
Ven
I wrote a quickcheck equivalent in Perl6, and it was good.
 
1:19 PM
@BartekBanachewicz that sounds fun
 
user1804599
Objects are tuples of functions.
 
Ven
also, parametricity
 
> Perl
> good
> programming
pick none
 
user1804599
Perl.
 
but I like programming
 
Ven
1:20 PM
I said Perl6
 
from what I heard Pearl 6 is only marginally better than 5
case a: it's still pearl
 
Ven
What'd you answer to "from what I heard, Haskell sucks" :)?
 
lol baddroids can't wipe data properly
Not that I'm surprised
 
@Ven "you're an ignorant idiot" or something like that typically.
 
Haskell sucks
 
1:21 PM
@Ven Sucking has side-effects, hence Haskell can't suck.
 
@fredoverflow shmart
 
user1804599
@Ven he'd ask why you like annoying people.
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz Then why do you not apply the same to other languages?
 
@Ven because languages are different?
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz you have no idea, because you didn't try
 
user1804599
1:23 PM
According to my teacher they were all the same!
 
Ven
just like they have no idea, because they didn't try
 
didn't try what? writing in perl?
 
Ven
@rightfold also, everyone is rightfold
 
admittedly I didn't try writing in Perl 6
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz perl6, yeah. especially if you use "from what I've heard"
 
1:23 PM
I did try writing in Perl 5 and it was a nightmare
 
Ven
talk about that with @rightfold, I don't know perl5
 
user1804599
@Ven je suis rightfold
 
Ven
@rightfold je sais
 
user1804599
Perl is great.
 
user1804599
@Ven je as well
 
1:24 PM
but not for writing maintainable software
 
Ven
@rightfold je, je, suis si fragile
 
user1804599
Fragile people are fun to manipulate.
 
user1804599
You can easily break them.
 
@Ven you know, you don't really need to use it. I disagree with the principle and ideas. From there it can only get worse (e.g. imperfect real-world implementation).
 
@buttifulbuttefly Yes. It's the Java interpretation of Endlösung
 
Ven
1:25 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I'm sure you'd be surprised, but whatever :)
 
Perl is a language designed in such a way that makes it hard to predict what the program is going to do
 
@BartekBanachewicz You two will have so much in common :S
 
user1804599
Nah, that's LiveScript.
 
@Ven vOv surprise me.
what would I like in Perl 6?
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz 1 xx * Z+< 0..*
 
Ven
1:26 PM
it's easy to predict what LiveScript will do, once you know how it parses
 
user1804599
@Ven what was the cyclomatic complexity of the lexer again?
 
Ven
@rightfold I can't qualify it
I mean, the sixcheck
 
user1804599
10000000000000000000000000
 
Ven
knowing that * is like operator section in haskell (\* > 10 same as (> 10))
 
@rightfold That's over 9000
 
user1804599
1:27 PM
@Ven you should make it so that if there's a fault, it reduces the input until it doesn't fail anymore.
 
user1804599
Then show the smallest failing input to the user.
 
Ven
@rightfold do it
 
Finally! IT blocked agar.io
 
Ven
"smallest" doesn't mean anything in tons of cases
@BartekBanachewicz compile-time analysis while still being real nice for scripting
 
@AndyProwl gah, why did you have to remind me of agar.io!
 
1:28 PM
@melak47 ikr
 
Ven
(i.e. lexical and calls and private member statical analysis)
 
@AndyProwl sigh! opens a new tab
 
lol
I am now immune /cc @Jefffrey
 
@Ven "real nice"? Those two typically contradict themselves, as in, I want a flexible, powerful and clean language for scripting.
Perl lacks the latter.
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz each module has its own runtime and compile-time, which means you can generate functions from a module A
and still have the function calls analysis in module B
 
1:29 PM
a compile-time in a scripting language?
 
Ven
yes
 
that hardly makes sense, does it?
 
Not really
 
Ven
no
sub bar(Str) {}; sub foo { bar(1) }; is a compile-time error in Perl6.
(foo isn't called)
 
Straight interpreters are rare and inefficient
 
1:29 PM
I want pizza
 
Most of the time the code is compiled in the same way
 
imma get one of those 1+1 offers today so I have pizza tomorrow too
 
@Ven how will it know whether bar will appear in the scope or not?
 
college is thousands of dollars but pizza is only like ten so what is the obvious choice here
 
if you want to prevent that statically then it's hardly a "scripting" language anymore
 
1:30 PM
@AndyProwl LOL
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz when you say "use A", it goes and compile A. then it knows which subs were imported
 
I agree with him
 
There's little difference between interpreters and compilers and I wish people stopped using the words "interpreted" and "scripting"
 
I want pizza too
 
Not that the two were synonyms in the first place
 
1:31 PM
ok so you have modules.
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz if you're okay with reading a talk for 10min, I really recommend jnthn.net/papers/2015-fosdem-static-dynamic.pdf, it's absolutely amazing at giving you the best of both worlds
 
This is good.
 
@AndyProwl gg
 
@AndyProwl but only while at work? :v
 
Opinions on UDP vs TCP are very different with regards to multiplayer games.
 
Ven
1:32 PM
In the talk, he generates dynamically functions in an imported module, and still gets compile-time analysis on importing module
 
@melak47 yes, that's the downside
 
What do you guys think?
 
depends on the game I guess
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz about the only programming language of which I know the implementation directly interprets the AST is Perl 5.
 
@AlexM. Yaaay, my pizza arrived
 
Ven
1:33 PM
@rightfold it doesn't
perl5 has a VM
 
user1804599
@Ven Since when?
 
@AlexM. Actually college is free in Czech Republic so that doesn't even work
 
@milleniumbug I have to wait 4.5 more hours for mine wtf
 
Ven
5.14 or so?
 
I'm at work :<
@AndyProwl same in Romania but
sometimes you need to ignore facts
 
1:33 PM
@Jefffrey I think, they usually use UDP
 
@AlexM. absolutely
 
and enjoy the joke
 
and the pizza
 
yes
 
@Jefffrey depends on the game
 
1:34 PM
My C++ scripts are interpreted by g++
 
@Ven this sounds reasonable alright.
 
@Ven you must be new here
 
Ven
@sehe kind of, yes, "you should know by now"
@BartekBanachewicz glad to hear that :)
 
@Ven that being said, I still don't know why I'd want to use it
 
user1804599
1:35 PM
@Ven nice.
 
@milleniumbug mmm
 
@Ven Robot's on a bike trip from Prague to Berlin. He's been posting updates in the last few days, but not today - apparently
 
Ven
@AndyProwl ok, thanks
 
user1804599
@Ven static typing in Perl 6 is shit.
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz well, anytime you don't want to carry around too much overhead
 
1:35 PM
@milleniumbug looks nice
 
Ven
@rightfold you're shit, get real
:D
 
NO PINEAPPLE
 
@Ven overhead in terms of what?
 
user1804599
Working and correct programs can suddenly stop working in a new version because more things get checked statically.
 
user1804599
It's not well-specified so you can't tell what will happen.
 
user1804599
1:36 PM
It's a horribly broken model.
 
user1804599
The compiler should emit warnings, not errors.
 
Perl6 is still crap
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz of stuff that could break someday, but you don't care about for a simple scripting task
 
Use C#
 
Ven
i.e. renaming every file in a directory
move($_, "$_.bak") for dir
 
1:37 PM
I'd still prefer to use Lua, Python or even Haskell for that
 
Ven
@rightfold if it's known to be broken, error out. don't scala.
@BartekBanachewicz ymmv :) they're too verbose for me
 
TIL Python and Haskell are verbose
 
Cryptic write-only line noise is much better
 
Ven
python is, and haskell carries the overhead of "this could fail, we need to check it" you care about in resilient programs, much less in others
 
user1804599
@Ven You can write provably correct programs now, and tomorrow they will break because the static type system suddenly changes.
 
1:38 PM
@AndyProwl Tastes nice too
 
python is far from being verbose
 
what's python
 
Ven
@rightfold if the type system breaks it, then it'd have broken at runtime
 
@buttifulbuttefly a snake
 
If you don't care about your maintenance scripts being resilient you end up with commands that suddenly wipe out all user data
 
1:39 PM
@Ven OTOH Perl is unreadable mess.
 
user1804599
@Ven No.
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz I don't think so
perl5, maybe, I wouldn't know.
 
You need to check your fucking assumptions and errors regardless of what the task is
 
user1804599
Type checkers can't solve the halting problem.
 
@Ven I still find it hard to read.
 
1:40 PM
Your move one-liner will overwrite files without any regard
 
besides, there's the clutter:
$checker.check-sub(&add, * == *.reduce(*+*)
that's way more verbose than a Haskell equivalent would be
 
@BartekBanachewicz Does it really though?
 
@Jefffrey yes.
 
@Jefffrey Yes
 
Ven
1:40 PM
@BartekBanachewicz * == * is (==)
 
@Jefffrey it's the question of "do I really need all of the packets there and in order or not"
 
user1804599
@Ven Unreadable crap code.
 
It's kinda more complicated than that
If you're using UDP then you'll probably be reimplementing TCP on top of it at least partially
 
use BBTP
 
TCP should have a packet flag that says "send this however but fast"
 
1:41 PM
With UDP you would have to implement your own layer of "reliability" on top of it
 
Ven
okay, now for some starcraft instead
 
I guess
 
Ven
@rightfold tsk tsk
 
@BartekBanachewicz There is
 
TCP and UDP have exactly the same ~speed~
 
user1804599
1:42 PM
If this is (* == *).foo instead of * == (*.foo) I'll eat my shoe.
 
really? ... raw speed you mean?
 
@Jefffrey the idea is that for some data you don't need that
 
user1804599
Perl 6 syntax is an abomination.
 
It's more about controlling congestion and queuing and ordering and resending logic
 
e.g. constant realtime world snapshots in a shooter
 
1:42 PM
You still need ordering for that
 
that's an example okay
either way the older snapshot becomes redundant once you get the new one
which makes resending the old one pointless if you have a new one already @Jefffrey
 
@Vincent you already asked the question. It's a bit awkward to start flirting with others to do more spoonfeeding on my answer, when you - in all this time - still failed to produce a sample case that we can work with. — sehe 15 secs ago
 
@Ven that's a paradox
 
Using UDP is strictly more complicated than using TCP
 
1:44 PM
@milleniumbug Is that a goatse? Why is that not binned
 
You might have something to gain, but it's not about speed
 
@CatPlusPlus multicast is easier
 
@sehe I don't get why you're always so constructive / nice
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, but you still need the new one to be sent in order in a reliable way
 
@sehe That's a pizza
 
1:44 PM
o.O
 
@Jefffrey not really, no. You just want to push it down the pipe. If it gets there, cool, if it doesn't send the next one.
If the connection drops too much you won't be able to play anyway
 
user1804599
Perl 6 is like Servo: a sad failure.
 
@buttifulbuttefly Nice mix of irony and flattery
 
it's like in hard realtime, when the computer calculates the ABS data after the crash it might as well not return it at all
 
1:46 PM
You will lose packets
 
of course. So you create a reliability layer for things that absolutely need to get there and send the rest with just a probability of getting there
 
So TCP does too much, and UDP does too little
 
@milleniumbug kinda.
 
user1804599
You want TDP.
 
1:47 PM
A connection-ful protocol with optional non-reliable packet sink would be nice, but it isn't as simple I guess
 
@BartekBanachewicz I see.
 
user1804599
Or UTC?
 
Ok, but so with UDP you would have to implement your own packet ordering to retrieve the information and check if you have a full "frame" or if it's already time to start on the next frame.
 
Ell
Best value laptop?
 
1:49 PM
Wait, "frame" in the network sense?
 
Which to my eyes basically means "Reimplementing TCP with, probably, worse performance".
@buttifulbuttefly Nope, game sense.
 
No because TCP does a lot more than just ordering
 
@Jefffrey So a message
 
@Ell What's "value"? Is it "hardware performance"?
 
Not to mention that UDP doesn't even attempt at congestion control.
 
user1804599
1:50 PM
 
@Jefffrey with tunable tradeoffs vOv
 
Say a game like agar.io. You have ~100 players on a server.
 
Ell
Build quality, battery life, performance. I just want to chat browse YouTube
I should Google this.
 
agar.io netcode is terrible
 
Ell
I will
 
1:50 PM
maybe because websockets idk
 
@Ell then MacBook I guess
 
or just overall shittyness
 
@rightfold Wrong APL?
 
@Ell best bang/buck is if it's free :p
 
agar.io must run on TCP, right? I've heard that JS is not able to do UDP.
@buttifulbuttefly Still, it works fairly fine.
 
user1804599
1:51 PM
@milleniumbug APL!
 
@Jefffrey no
 
@Jefffrey you've heard correctly
 
I thought most things run on scp nowadays
 
Ell
What is the debate about?
 
@Jefffrey internet is better than when UDP was designed
 
Ell
1:51 PM
TCP vs UDP?
 
tabs vs spaces
 
@Ell yes
 
either way it stutters and lags so
 
PHP vs Java
 
Ell
How about TCP + UDP
 
1:52 PM
or UDP + tabs + PHP
 
guys why don't we make a game in haskell
 
Ell
Bcos the lounge doesn't work
 
I know there's been some time since the jam but I don't wanna code alone
 
kbok chiming it at the right time
 
or even in pair
 
1:52 PM
Here's the deal. I'm implementing a multiplayer snake game using Boost.Asio (just to learn this stuff). And I'm already split between TCP and UDP. My heart says that TCP is better, but I'm now sure I could put it words.
 
if the lounge does not work, re-write it in java :p
 
@rightfold van heel dichtbij
 
it's not "better", it's different
 
@Jefffrey Do you need reliability / order ? Yes ? TCP.
 
The only thing I can do in Haskell is map, fold*, filter and pattern matching
 
1:53 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Let's do a haskell jam
 
HOLD ON
What's happening here.
 
@milleniumbug Good enough :P
 
@Mr.kbok oh hmm
 
Bartek doing the "nuanced" thing?!
 
I can sense the failure from here
 
1:53 PM
@Mr.kbok List of participants: [Bartek]
 
@sehe he he
 
on one hand, I am fundamentally against "Technology X jams"
 
I would start by creating a new chat room
 
I'm writing Java :<
 
Guaranteed success
 
1:54 PM
oh come on we're just discussing
 
funk jam?
 
tho I like it
 
@buttifulbuttefly I'd participate, but my game will probably be a grey square that goes away when you press space
 
thought most online multiplayer games are using UDP
 
J'ai ri
 
Ell
1:54 PM
@Jefffrey why not both?
 
@BartekBanachewicz You can't write "discussing" without cussing
 
@sehe Done
 
because you server does not need to order the information coming in?
process it as it's received
 
You can't spell "write" without "right"
 
enhance the speed
 
1:55 PM
@Mr.kbok btw did you make anything that uses font rendering with Hate?
 
@Ell I don't know. Everyone points to this article, and say that it's the word of God. And this article says to never mix TCP and UDP.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I didn't do anything since minecraft lang-lei-la
 
@milleniumbug but then you'd spell it "wrong"!
 
user1804599
@milleniumbug Walter Wright is the best pilot.
 
I'm planning on writing a tiny homebrew game soon
Either NES, GB or NDS
 
1:57 PM
@Jefffrey lol
 
@Mr.kbok does that mean Nintendo
 
@BartekBanachewicz ...yeah
 
user1804599
 
@CatPlusPlus v0v it definitely seems to have more experience than my non existing one
 
user1804599
ADTs in D!
 
user1804599
1:57 PM
mixin is awesome.
 
Those are the only systems I know a bit
 
I might write a flappy bird
 
On the other hand it's a game developer, so the rule is never to trust his words.
That's why I came here.
To get non gamedevs opinions about it.
 
Perhaps since it's your first attempt just go with what you think makes most sense (TCP)
 
TCP is the default
 
1:59 PM
the worst thing that can happen is that you gained some insight from practical experience
 
go UDP if you need it
 
Yeah use TCP dude
 
Alright then
Thanks
 
Or learn how the networking stuff works so you can make an informed decision on your own
Thinking is hard I know
 
I think the only issue you could get is performance and I don't think you will have a lot of performance issues with your multiplayer snake game
 
1:59 PM
also TCP would be annoying if your server have to process a lot of information from various players, all those re-try on the communication send & receive would kill your server as easy as a chicken could to a sago worm
 
@CatPlusPlus Yes, it is hard
 

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