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12:00 PM
gotta pay Mike Seymour a beer
dat answer
 
@sehe I wonder if he was joking
 
Ven
v8 is faster than ocaml at times: benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u32/…
 
user1804599
Storing trees in RDBMSes is meh.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't think he knows what that is
 
@Ven LuaJIT is faster than V8 at times vOv
 
12:01 PM
@rightfold ironically, all your tables/indices are likely trees
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz it's not on my benchmark :(
 
user1804599
@sehe I mean stuff like this:
 
user1804599
create table systems (
    id uuid primary key,
    name text not null,
    parent_id uuid references systems(id) on delete cascade
);
 
@Ven do you mean "Lua" on the page you linked to? That isn't LuaJIT I think?
 
@Rapptz I'll check it when i get home
 
user1804599
12:02 PM
It's hard to extract entire trees and such. You need either stoprocs or obscure recursive CTEs.
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz it isn't, considering the performance
 
user1804599
Since the structure is recursive.
 
@rightfold I know what you meant. SqlServer has teh awesomes. I suppose it might be T-SQL anyways: WITH (Common Table Expressions) e.g. technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms186243(v=sql.105).aspx
@rightfold ack
 
user1804599
PostgreSQL also supports recursive CTEs.
 
user1804599
Never used it, though.
 
12:03 PM
@rightfold that's sprocs (stop-rocs?)
 
user1804599
Stored procedures.
 
@rightfold It's quite nice. And they do what you'd write if you had access to it on the database server
 
user1804599
I thought "stoproc" was an accepted abbreviation for that. :v
 
> sprocs
 
user1804599
Apparently not. :v
 
user1804599
12:04 PM
@sehe Ohh I see. :D
 
@rightfold When spoken, maybe. When written it's way too ambiguous IYAM
 
user1804599
WITH RECURSIVE t(n) AS (
    VALUES (1)
  UNION ALL
    SELECT n+1 FROM t WHERE n < 100
)
SELECT sum(n) FROM t;
 
user1804599
I ... will write a procedure.
 
You will not. Because you will fail to make it scale.
 
Now it works on real programs :)
 
12:06 PM
@rightfold You are the hipster here. You know when to use COBOL. And you know when not to.
 
user1804599
@sehe Premature optimisation is the root of all evil.
 
Ven
oh, you're a kotlin fan?
 
user1804599
@sehe COBOL is nice.
 
@rightfold Reinventing the wheel is the root of premature optimization
 
Ven
I have a quote of @rightfold saying that cobol sucks
 
12:07 PM
I wonder what badfold will do when he runs out of languages to try
 
@Ven I'm learning it, and it seems nice.
 
Ven
@fredoverflow they broke a lot for the sake of java tho :(
 
@Ven I bet there is a rightfold quote for every language that it sucks.
 
user1804599
       identification division.
       program-id. fizzbuzz.

       data division.
       working-storage section.
           01 n                        pic 9(3).

       procedure division.
           perform 100 times
               add 1 to n
               if 0 = function mod(n, 3) or function mod(n, 5) then
                   if function mod(n, 3) = 0 then
                       display "fizz" with no advancing
                   end-if
                   if function mod(n, 5) = 0 then
                       display "buzz" with no advancing
 
@Ven I don't doubt you. For each quote of lobsters saying "X is great" I raise you a quote saying the opposite
 
Ven
12:07 PM
@BartekBanachewicz write more?
 
user1804599
This is just gorgeous.
 
user1804599
It has the best syntax ever.
 
Ven
@fredoverflow or at least I have a lot :)
 
his languages don't work
 
user1804599
Mill works fine.
 
Ven
12:08 PM
what's "with no advancing"?
 
@BartekBanachewicz that doesn't stop you (or him) from trying
 
user1804599
As Sutter would say it: "you can use it today".
 
user1804599
@Ven without newline.
 
@fredoverflow lol MainFrame
 
@sehe how do you try out something that doesn't work?
 
Ven
12:08 PM
@rightfold ugh
 
@BartekBanachewicz How not?
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz test driven brokenness
how do you know something doesn't work if you didn't test it :)?
 
@BartekBanachewicz invent his own?
 
user1804599
Mill can run fizzbuzz. vOv
 
12:10 PM
Various people throughout history have attempted human flight.
And various other people will probably do so in the future
@rightfold IMPRESIVE
 
@sehe That... That's just brilliant.
 
user1804599
And it can throw and catch exceptions.
 
@sehe does falling down from a cliff classify as "flight" for you?
 
user1804599
And spawn lots of threads.
 
@sehe Remember that guy with a flying suit that jumped of the Eiffel tower?
 
12:11 PM
@rubenvb It's a lovely, descriptive name, isn't it?
 
@rightfold I'm not there yet. All I can do is declare lexically scoped variables and assign values to them. Addition, Subtraction and Multiplication also works. And that's about it :)
 
I got the address for the interview on wednesday; it's the very same building I work in
14
 
@BartekBanachewicz I see a problem incoming.
 
12:13 PM
ITN: Bartek got head-hunted by his own company.
 
this is gonna be awkward
 
user1804599
I starred it first!
 
Ven
@StackedCrooked yes
 
user1804599
 
it's their temporary office, at least
 
12:14 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Temporary office? Make sure you finish the interview before the semicolon.
 
@rightfold I haven't implemented division yet :)
 
This is one of their products. Actually, wow, looks nice. Like something @CatPlusPlus would like.
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow upon division by zero, you should display pictures of nasal demons all over the screen.
 
Ven
> LuaJIT achieves speeds within 1.5x of optimized C's speed. That's something that not even the JVM is capable of achieving, and none of the pleasurable languages to write with in the JVM have an acceptable RAM usage or startup time for many applications.
Bold claims.
 
user3010322
12:16 PM
@Ven True claims.
 
user1804599
OH NO NOT THE START UP TIME FOR THE APPLICATION I START ONCE AND THEN NEVER AGAIN
 
man this looks nice.
now I'm going to get stressed because it looks like a nice employer
 
Ven
@ThePhD I want proof
 
Xeo
@rightfold I wish UE4 would start quicker :/
 
user562566
@Ven I don't believe that
 
Ven
12:17 PM
@TechnikEmpire me neither!
 
user1804599
@Xeo then you start it too often.
 
@Ven true.
@ThePhD dammmm
 
user1804599
Start it once and never quit it.
 
Xeo
Not possible.
 
user1804599
Bad.
 
Xeo
12:18 PM
There's hot-reloading for the source, but that's more broken than not.
 
user1804599
Joe Armstrong wants to talk to you.
 
user1804599
Uptime smaller than 99.9999999% is bad.
 
user3010322
@Ven My proof is only empirical and anecdotal: I've been helping run a 5K individual chat server whose infrastructure is written in C-with-classes and Lua. We use GCC 4.5 and are running it on one of those free-server-space boxes (read: underpower PoS). The fact that we can have 5k connections at peak and not crash horribly on a single machine is pretty fascinating to me, and that's only possible because we use LuaJIT with lua51.
 
Ven
@ThePhD I'm not saying LuaJIT isn't an incredible piece of jewelry. I'm just saying that's a bold claim.
 
12:20 PM
LuaJIT uses unicorn magic
can't really compete with that
 
user1804599
LuaSHIT
 
unless you use Haskell. Unicorns are written in Haskell.
 
@rightfold Nasal demons are top-priority on my list!
 
Ven
i.e. v8 taking less time than c++ is surprising
 
i = i++;   // display picture of nasal demons!
 
Ven
12:20 PM
in the benchmark @BartekBanachewicz linked
 
user562566
benchmarks smenchmarks. when I see two real world examples that actually address and process something in the wild and some garbage scripting language is consistently outperforming, then I'll agree
 
@Ven "This dynamically optizing platform" is faster than "this generically optimized program" is surprising.
 
@BartekBanachewicz It classifies as "trying". And that's what you were arguing about.
 
user562566
anything else is just fanboy bullshit to avoid learning a real language and still pass yourself off as a programmer
 
@TechnikEmpire your ignorance is bewilding
 
12:21 PM
@StackedCrooked prezioßely
 
and I only said ignorance to avoid saying 'stupidity'
 
user3010322
@TechnikEmpire Whistles.
 
user562566
@BartekBanachewicz Thanks. My ability to keep a job makes up for it.
 
also starred for the lulz
@TechnikEmpire lol that was so low
 
@BartekBanachewicz And your abrasiveness to match
 
Ven
12:22 PM
@BartekBanachewicz seems to me they're using all the tricks they can in JS for v8 instead of using code "they'd write otherwise" is telling :)
 
@TechnikEmpire is this a real job, though? I guess if you only use real languages...
 
Ven
Much like tons of Haskell benchmarks that just unsafely (and strictly) bind to C library
 
user562566
@BartekBanachewicz lol
 
user1804599
I really want to write my Perl program.
 
Ven
go for it
 
12:23 PM
@TechnikEmpire Define "real language"
 
public class Whistle
{
    public void blow()
    {
        System.out.println("ermahgerd consprirarcy!!!");
    }
}
 
user1804599
use Modern::Perl;
 
@khajvah there's no definition of that for the nth time
 
@BartekBanachewicz Not really. I see why you could take that personally, but I doubt he knows or even cares enough to intend
 
@sehe oh well @TechnikEmpire?
 
user562566
12:24 PM
@khajvah Tell me what the point of comparing a scripting language to a compiled language is, and you'll answer your own question
 
> scripting language
> real language
why don't we coin more vague terms and throw them around
 
user1804599
Perl is the only real language.
 
@Ven Can you elaborate?
 
@TechnikEmpire No, you used the expression "real language", I wanna know what that means
 
@fredoverflow "Yes."
 
12:25 PM
What about real scripting languages?
@buttifulbuttefly Please do.
 
I wasn't in the discussion when you were comparing stuff
 
@fredoverflow "No."
 
@fredoverflow What about UnrealScript??!!
2
 
@buttifulbuttefly Why not?
 
user562566
@khajvah Why do all these people constantly compare against c/cpp. Answering that answers your question
 
12:26 PM
> c/cpp
 
@TechnikEmpire Answering that doesn't answer my question
 
Ven
@fredoverflow blog.jetbrains.com/kotlin/2014/10/m9-is-here "Kotlin does not enforce null-safety for platfrom types. I.e. for Java values you get Java’s semantics: NPE is now possible for values coming from Java"
 
user562566
@BartekBanachewicz was just a quick shot back at your comment
 
Ven
they broke the language for the sake of crappy java API compat
 
user562566
@khajvah It's pretty simple
 
12:27 PM
@TechnikEmpire I was wondering whether you were referring to my actual, ekhem, job situation.
 
@khajvah he weasels his way out of admitting "Real languages are languages I like/use"
 
Is it?
 
Yes^
 
user562566
@sehe Not at all
 
@Ven Well, Java compat is important.
 
12:27 PM
sigh
 
@khajvah You probing for rational arguments is also largely rhetorical
 
But I think they're working on improving that situation.
 
I actually sighed IRL
 
Ven
@fredoverflow fuck NPEs.
 
@TechnikEmpire Well. Then I'm starting to agree with the star board
@BartekBanachewicz You need a break. Cycle to Berlin, maybe
 
12:28 PM
hey at least this time I have a pretty good reason to be more stressed out than usual
 
@fredoverflow ARE YOU FROM THE POLICE???
 
Xeo
I'm so evil. I'm marking a function as BlueprintPure but it's not pure.
 
I'd actually agree with the starboard, s/real/statically typed/
 
user3010322
@Xeo Oooh, kinky.~
 
Xeo
I don't care about control flow, I just care about value dependencies
It's a nice way to make a flow graph :D
The different nodes do stuff when they're reached while UE resolves the dependencies
 
12:30 PM
@BartekBanachewicz You don't need reasons. Also, jobs, moving, girlfriends abroad, etc. are all stressors. As are being in school and disliking your work
 
also uh I've just realized they require SQL for that role
 
sequels
 
now I feel kinda stupid
what if I walk in there and they ask me about SQL
 
you walk out discretely
 
"Do you believe in SQL"?
"No I'm agnostic"
 
12:31 PM
"I uh made an app with PostGIS once does that count"
 
See. I didn't
Certainly. Geospatial queries count as advanced
I wouldn't worry much. If an employer required PostGIS and - as it happens - I don't have experience, I can safely tell them I don't worry about learning this.
As long as I don't need to learn the 80%. Having to acquire the 20% is only normal
 
point being I don't really use SQL that often
I don't really have problems using it when I need it
but this is hardly "fluent" or "experienced"
 
@buttifulbuttefly If people say something related to Java which sucks, I want them to back it up.
 
That's good. It's like being asked "Do you know how to operate the fire extinguisher/cargo lift/access the crouch area under the house" and saying "I don't do that often". Unless, of course you apply as a mover or fireman
 
user562566
@fredoverflow java sucks
 
12:36 PM
Impostor syndrome is a psychological phenomenon in which people are unable to internalize their accomplishments. Despite external evidence of their competence, those with the syndrome remain convinced that they are frauds and do not deserve the success they have achieved. Proof of success is dismissed as luck, timing, or as a result of deceiving others into thinking they are more intelligent and competent than they believe themselves to be. Notably, impostor syndrome is particularly common among high-achieving women. == Background == The impostor syndrome tends to be studied as a reaction...
^ that's inverse Dunning-Kruger, basically.
 
@fredoverflow Really? By that logic, if I say Hitler is bad, I need to provide evidence?
 
Java is no worse than C++
 
user562566
@buttifulbuttefly if I say yes, am I banned
 
@BartekBanachewicz Trust me. You do these things. Just don't get anal about it (that only works in academia and some other areas like legal or maybe security auditors etc.)
 
@sehe How do I measure what I know? If I don't know stuff I may be affected by Dunning-Kruger.
 
user3010322
12:38 PM
@sehe Oooh, so that's what the opposite is called.
 
@sehe INSERT INTO butte
 
@TechnikEmpire No. We don't care what you say.
 
user562566
@sehe wow, why the hate
 
@ThePhD It isn't. I just linked the two, for additional insight
 
user3010322
Oh.
 
12:38 PM
@sehe I would be more confident if this wasn't for a senior position. Which, FWIW, is called "Senior C++ Developer"
 
(as in, I think I know stuff)
 
@TechnikEmpire I'm just leading by example. That's not hate. It's honest. We don't care. Why should we?
 
user562566
@sehe so angry
 
@BartekBanachewicz Ah. It says C++ right there. Most senior C++ devs know they shouldn't be meddling with C++ if it's predominantly working with databases.
 
well whatever, if I fail then it's no big deal because I was aiming high. If I succeed it's a huge step forward.
 
12:39 PM
@TechnikEmpire Feel free to lurk and observe. You might arrive at a more balanced assessment.
 
@sehe does "just don't get anal" mean what I think it means?
 
The term anal retentive (also anally retentive), commonly abbreviated to anal, is used to describe a person who pays such attention to detail that the obsession becomes an annoyance to others, potentially to the detriment of the anal-retentive person. The term derives from Freudian psychoanalysis. == Origins == In Freudian psychology, the anal stage is said to follow the oral stage of infant or early-childhood development. This is a time when an infant's attention moves from oral stimulation to anal stimulation (usually the bowels but occasionally the bladder), usually synchronous with learning...
 
hi Jefffy
 
@BartekBanachewicz he he
 
We should have wikipedia one-boxes in real life
 
12:41 PM
hi
 
@sehe that is exactly what I thought
 
Also, I can't really say I know C++ (for example, I only did a bit of TMP and I don't know the details of overload resolution)
 
@sehe that would be a big box
altough throwing it in someone's face would certainly have an effect
 
user562566
@sehe I've obviously said something to offend you. The grown up thing to do would be to say what it is, not pull the classic school yard kid pouting fit and say "I speak for everyone, we don't like you." lol
 
like breaking nose and stuff
 
Ven
12:42 PM
@milleniumbug you learned them in that blog post!
 
@milleniumbug That's already more than 90% of people who would say they know C++
 
@TechnikEmpire we don't though. (jk)
 
user562566
@sehe but of course, you're entitled to
 
@milleniumbug what cicada said vOv
the level of C++ of a typical C++ dev is terribly low
it's vaguely like a typical 800-1200 rep user
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz Typicial; doesn't know C.
 
12:43 PM
@TechnikEmpire Sorry. I don't know where I gave that impression. You asked a cheeky question ("am I banned?") and I responded in style.
 
@rightfold lol
 
@BartekBanachewicz good I am not in that range
 
@TechnikEmpire O shit. What. Well. Sorry you took it that way :( I didn't speak for everyone. But yes, we don't care if you are honest about requiring evidence. Not even when it relates to Hitler.
 
@Rapptz witcher 3 through oil painting filter reddit.com/r/witcher/comments/36unh7/…
 
So I'm not a typical C++ dev? NOICE
 
user562566
12:45 PM
@sehe lol oh okay. the woes of communicating through text
 
Damn. It has been a looong time since I've been caught off-guard by a lounge un-initiated...
@TechnikEmpire Cheers. No harm done.
 
user562566
lol
 
I'll try to slow down a bit.
 
Xeo
@AlexM. Nice filter.
 
notice how I said "vaguely"
 
Ven
 
@Xeo this is the prettiest i.imgur.com/iLf1G9o.jpg
 
@Ven oh, I can smile
 
the bending trees give it such an artistic and legit look
 
Ven
@sehe I knew you wouldn't take that badly ;-)
@AlexM. they all look amazing
 
Does anyone know if it's possible to define a UDL _z such that auto x = 123_z results in "123" being stored as a template parameter of x? AFAIK the only kind of UDL that can accept template parameters is the one for strings, so I think the answer is no, but I'm not sure.
 
Ven
12:48 PM
> Ha, I guess you're downvoting me without explanation because you can't do that through C++. So bitter.
 
Rust > *
 
user1804599
lol /r/programming
 
@buttifulbuttefly well, maybe not *, but it's up there
 
> > People don't write C++ or C because it's super fun and productive
> Well C++ is both of those things.
...
 
did you just criticize rust
 
12:53 PM
@buttifulbuttefly no way
@thecoshman is such a fanboy
 
@BartekBanachewicz I liked it when I was playing around with it, but that was more than a week ago, so who knows what it's like now.
 
Ven
@rightfold indeed
@thecoshman 1.0 is out, it's not gonna move much now
 
@Ven is that a bad or a good thing
 
@Ven It'll move, just not morph into something else.
 
Ven
@BartekBanachewicz good, you can start using it
 
user1804599
12:54 PM
Servo will die.
 
@rightfold Why'd you say that?
 
user562566
my kids just tried to soften a tube of play dough in the sink.
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's actually comforting me a bit, as I was a bit scared of all these "Requires knowledge of X, Y, Z"
 
This is why you use condoms
 
Ven
> being smart teenagers, they like that their taste sets them apart from the crowd
that's called being emo, not smart.
 
12:57 PM
@milleniumbug there are other things than just knowing the language though vOv
 
@buttifulbuttefly that was a fucked up joke
 
as can be seen in my example apparently
 
@khajvah nice
 
Xeo
@khajvah kids are a fucked up joke.
 
user562566
@Xeo to the unstable and incompetent, indeed
 
12:58 PM
Life is a fucked up joke
 
hi cat
how's ... oh well
 
@CatPlusPlus but you have none so you shouldn't care
 
@BartekBanachewicz Didn't you say a month :v
 
Ven
@CatPlusPlus I'm also sad Dream won :(
 
A what
 
Xeo
12:59 PM
yesterday, by Bartek Banachewicz
I got fired today.
 
@CatPlusPlus are you complaining or cheering
 
@BartekBanachewicz API, framework, algorithm knowledge? Or do you mean your yesterday's starred message?
 
life
 
@BartekBanachewicz yes
 
Ven
@CatPlusPlus sc2 joke
 
12:59 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I'm counting bets
 
Apr 29 at 10:04, by Bartek Banachewicz
My observations lead me to believe that technical skills will build your portfolio and get you through an interview. Media/marketing skills will get you to said interview. But only good communication and social skills will make you happy and satisfied with a job, and possibly get you a promotion
 
I thought you'd be back sooner tbh
 

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