« first day (1648 days earlier)      last day (3302 days later) » 

1:00 PM
uh no
 
@BartekBanachewicz REALLY?
 
man I don't want to think about where I am streaming from
 
Zeroconf is a thing
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yep.
 
1:00 PM
I just want an endless bit of music to pick from
 
@BartekBanachewicz This is OLD AS FUCK.
 
@thecoshman har har nished
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes if they are so numerous why don't you present some
stop flaming up that's my business
 
@milleniumbug does it even sound
 
Zeroconf over WiFi is also a thing
 
1:00 PM
@thecoshman lyrical
 
@sehe hey hey hey! less of that funny talk if you don't mind
 
For streaming you've got RTSP that's been around for like decades
And RTCP for control
Pair that with multicast for discovery and bam you've got everything covered
Every media app on the planet supports RTSP
 
@AlexM. Yes. It's about 4:12.
 
@CatPlusPlus Sounds like what's needed.
@CatPlusPlus well, I wonder how many consumer audio electronics support it
 
@BartekBanachewicz Not the point. They shouldn't support Spotify Connect.
 
1:03 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes UH FFS
 
Probably more than proprietary Spotify whatever thing?
 
14 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
is there much hardware supporting it?
Because then this question wouldn't exist.
 
@CatPlusPlus there are hundreds of devices supporting Connect.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes well no, it's that they should support SC, but that they shouldn't support just SC
 
I haven't seen RTSP support advertised too much TBH
@thecoshman most of them doesn't. (support just SC)
 
1:04 PM
Podcasting is a thing.
 
@milleniumbug Potatoes are a thing.
 
FUCK YOU MARK DOWN!
¬_¬
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes amazing.
I like how you throw around "should" and "should not" without any practical consideration
you're such a Bartek, Robot.
 
xkcd - standards, there we go
 
@BartekBanachewicz What's practical about it?
@BartekBanachewicz Because it doesn't have a partnership program with manufacturers.
 
1:05 PM
You can buy shitty hardware that only supports crappy proprietary protocols!
 
> shitty
ekhm
@R.MartinhoFernandes whistles
 
Yes, I consider closed platforms shitty
 
@BartekBanachewicz not having choise is shitty, remember
 
@CatPlusPlus it's not closed god damn it. Neither of those devices locks you into spotify
 
@thecoshman Typical Jef Fatwood - "Markdown is important, let's make it behave different on every our site!"
 
1:07 PM
it's additional support for a service
 
@milleniumbug well, it's one boxing really
 
@sehe Initially I was just absent-mindedly venting about password being fucking annoying (which they are). You took it seriously and I changed my tone accordingly - so don't even try to write it off as if I'm poorly trying to make some point, I had no point to begin with, the conversation grew and I made some points about passwords on a more serious note.
 
@milleniumbug And then invent a new dialect that's also different and call it "standard"!
 
lol Sonos CEO
> Asked about the Spotify initiative, MacFarlane told me: “They asked us to participate, and we didn’t.” He went on to argue that it made little sense to tie speaker systems to the brand of a single music service, joking that stores like Best Buy shouldn’t have separate aisles for Pandora speakers and Spotify speakers.
 
@milleniumbug lol
 
1:08 PM
@sehe Most password (non-random ones) ARE based on a pattern, replacement of vowels with numbers or special characters, multiple words separated by characters - the most common case (arguably) is that most user passwords would follow this pattern - hell the websites themselves almost encourage you to just add an unusual character and Capitalize some letter. If you seriously want to have a discussion, sure.
 
@BartekBanachewicz A service which shouldn't need special support in the first place. All it needs to do is expose the proper endpoints instead of forcing you to use their own proprietary ones.
 
Who cares about shitty passwords is the question
Yes people are bad at security so what we already knew that
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yes, that would be perfect.
 
@sehe , previously I and a guy wrote some code to generate many possible variations of character replacements/mutations, including dates, character replacements and various combinations, we took the english dictionary and essentially let the code run for a while, what we ended up with was a 28GB dictionary file that you could then try and use to crack passwords.
 
I'm sorry... people buy speakers that can only stream music to them?
 
what's next, a kettle that can only boil water for coffee?
 
@Nisk Your argument can be reduced to "if you make a password based on a pattern, your password has a pattern"
 
@sehe It was a bit more involved and in-depth, for example we shortly limited the english vocab to something like 2000 most common used words, added some band/song names and such (limited number of those, scrubbing az-lyrics could get out of hand). Naturally you won't crack ever password or even a simple random-character password, but this was a specific password-list attack. We took a random sample of hashed passwords and had a pretty decent success rate for them.
 
No don't Rand us today please no
 
@thecoshman No. Learn to read.
@CatPlusPlus ironically I'm not the one doing that
 
1:09 PM
Er.
What?
 
spotify introduced a product
 
How is my argument in any way objectivist?
 
@sehe That's in a nutshell my approach to the mention of passwords. You seldom get people trying to bruteforce the password through a web-login for an individual account, a more likely scenarion is that an attacked has a hashed password list they apply a similar method to - then see what they can get. So in a way, me having a slightly more complex password is less likely to keep an intruder out of the account, but me,
 
you can use it or not
 
@BartekBanachewicz bull shit
 
1:10 PM
@sehe since the intruder would be approaching this from a different vector (unless this is a targeted attack, and for some reason someone has that much time to waste). My initial complaint was about the password on ProjectEuler which I couldn't fucking remember (and still cant'), I should also mention that they DID have a security breach not that long ago, with user password (salted and hashed) accessed in most likely scenario. Passwords are shit. Pubkey-auth ftw.
 
@thecoshman yeah, totally.
 
@BartekBanachewicz How not Rand-y of you...
 
Also who cares about dictionary attacks when you can compute billions of SHA hashes per second on commodity hardware
 
@BartekBanachewicz oh please do tell me what product Spotify introduced
 
@milleniumbug pretty much, pattern means insecure.
 
1:11 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes you're saying that Spotify SHOULD NOT introduce a product that it sells because on your views on the protocol standards
 
@thecoshman ...Spotify?
 
@BartekBanachewicz A product which was not necessary and which they are throwing money into to take over a space that doesn't need it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes if it doesn't need it how is it a problem
 
@milleniumbug ¬_¬ that is a brand...
 
3 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
> Asked about the Spotify initiative, MacFarlane told me: “They asked us to participate, and we didn’t.” He went on to argue that it made little sense to tie speaker systems to the brand of a single music service, joking that stores like Best Buy shouldn’t have separate aisles for Pandora speakers and Spotify speakers.
 
1:11 PM
@thecoshman oh for fucks sake
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's more this than protocols.
 
@thecoshman ...also a service, which is a product.
 
@Nisk okay then. That explains. I didn't write anything off (proven by the fact that I'm still here)
 
@BartekBanachewicz It is a problem if it creates problems.
 
@Nisk (Thanks for noticing that message and using the reply-to mechanism to make that clear)
 
1:11 PM
What sort of 'thing' is Spotify?
 
Stupid market segregation is a problem.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes what problem, exactly, poses a speaker that supports spotify
 
what is it that you claim they introduced us to
 
@Nisk Pubkey auth also encourages using a single private key for everything or dealing with insane key juggling, which you have to encrypt and protect, which in turns makes it equivalent to keeping a password database
 
@thecoshman they created a music streaming service that can be streamed on devices and controlled by a phone
 
1:12 PM
@BartekBanachewicz The problem is that they shouldn't have to be a thing. It makes it harder to have speakers that support both Spotify and their competition.
 
Or you have multiple keys which should be encrypted with different passwords in which case you need both!
 
@BartekBanachewicz yes, they created a service, but they did not invent a brand new type of service
 
Plus it's impractical because of web
 
@CatPlusPlus if you bother with pubkey - the keys shouldn't be derived from a password
 
@thecoshman nobody said they did.
 
1:13 PM
The keys, no
 
@BartekBanachewicz yes, you did.
 
@CatPlusPlus practicality is another issue
 
The encryption keys for the keys, yes
 
3 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
spotify introduced a product
 
Call it a password, call it a secret, whatever
 
1:13 PM
@thecoshman how about you go back to the beginning and read everything I said again, if you have problems in comprehending it in one go.
 
Same thing
 
@thecoshman you're not very good at this English language are you
 
@CatPlusPlus I mentioned before, Apple said that all your cloud data is AES encryptedm while the encryption key is protected by 4-digit pin code...so yeah
 
So what
 
@BartekBanachewicz oh I'm sorry, there is another meaning to that sentence where you are not saying Spotify introduced a product?
 
1:15 PM
@thecoshman That product is Spotify Connect. vOv
 
We already know that there are terrible implementations, we already know that data is not encrypted if you don't encrypt it yourself
 
> spotify introduced a product
> but they did not invent a brand new type of service
 
So whaaaaaaaaaaaat
 
@thecoshman read two things above until you understand the difference
until you do please stop plinking me TIA
 
@CatPlusPlus It’s really important to explain anything and everything, unprompted and unsolicited.
 
1:15 PM
@thecoshman And a partnership program to work with manufacturers to artificially segregate the market.
 
@CatPlusPlus I figure have a random generated key, then use pub-auth for everything, sure you can lose your key, have the key stolen through direct access...but it's the same for a password
 
Storing music in the butt.
 
@Nisk Or you know have a password database and use random passwords for everything and the same thing
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes the thing is, open protocols are often not enough
 
I still don't know what you're arguing against
 
1:16 PM
pushing for change in them is nice, but if you want to sell, you can hardly do that
 
@BartekBanachewicz What change?
 
unless you're a giant like dunno Intel or Apple
 
@BartekBanachewicz enough for what?
 
for what a particular service needs, duh
 
@CatPlusPlus so instead of managing one key, that grants you secure access to services, you manage a DATABASE of insecure means to access services?
 
1:17 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Apple pushing for change? They introduce everything theirs.
 
@Nisk lol
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes they're a member of Khronos
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, what change does Spotify need?
 
I don't even
What
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't know.
 
1:17 PM
lol
 
It's a possible explanation anyway
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ones that prevent others using their service obviously
 
@thecoshman whistles
 
all in all, as a client I get a nice product that works and I gratefully pay for it vOv
 
@BartekBanachewicz if only there was some way of making a public extension...
 
1:18 PM
there's no use for an open protocol that isn't supported by anyone
 
@thecoshman More about forcing you to commit to them and shutting down your options on the competition.
 
you said that this RTCP thing is old
 
@BartekBanachewicz You're part of the problem.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes amazing
I don't use Linux either, SUCH A PROBLEM
 
A perfect consumer
 
1:19 PM
fucking hippies.
 
@BartekBanachewicz there's no use for closed protocols unless your aim is to be the only one.
 
fucking hipsters.
 
@CatPlusPlus it's how I see it, a password is a poor way to authenticate with a service, having to manage a database of them to boot, surely it's easier to just manage one key pair?
 
Interop is not optional
@Nisk Easier is not more secure
 
apparently it is
 
1:20 PM
if you permit people to lock each other out, you end up monopolies, and there is a reason more or less every country has anti-monopoly laws
 
@BartekBanachewicz That you don't recognise it makes you a part of the problem, hth
 
@thecoshman why don't you bring Spotify to court then
 
@CatPlusPlus bu pub-key auth IS more secure
 
@CatPlusPlus SUCH A PROBLEM
 
Morn-ing!
 
1:20 PM
@BartekBanachewicz why don't you stop lining their pockets?
 
oh no I bought a product that satisfies my needs how terrible of me
 
@BartekBanachewicz Why isn't it a problem that they make you commit to them and give up your options in the competition?
 
@thecoshman stop doing WHAT
@R.MartinhoFernandes Because I don't want or need what competition offers vOv
 
@Nisk Not really
 
@BartekBanachewicz No, that's not terrible. What's terrible is that you insist on painting it as just that.
 
1:21 PM
Key management is hard
 
@BartekBanachewicz Don't pay money to the mobs and the mobs have no money to bully you.
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's why we can't have nice things.
 
@thecoshman nobody is bullying me
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah that's also what RMS says incidentally
 
1:22 PM
@CatPlusPlus hard has nothing to do with insecure
 
@Nisk Yeah. Most passwords are. (I was responding to "Even the best passwords are...")
@Nisk Ah! That's something else than a password list. I thought you meant one of them leaked hash databases from historical compromises. Nah, my son's password wouldn't be in there. I guess it would be cheaper to get the password hash to you than the wordlist to me to actually try
@Nisk Any percentages?
@Nisk Yeah. The fact that you said "hackers will just download a password list" (instead of the database with password hashes/salts/hints (Adobe!!)) was one of the reasons I thought you were missing some pretty radical points. I also addressed precisely that within a few messages at that time
 
@BartekBanachewicz Argument from disauthority?
 
@Nisk to this I can agree. I don't think passwords suck. They're easily used badly. Similar things can likely be said for pubkey auth, and more so if we were to replace passwords with it. But in general, passwords are being used really badly by the public at large
(bbl)
 
@BartekBanachewicz How selfish Rand-y of you. (You brought up Rand, not me)
 
Lexicographical distance from RMF to RMS is small. Therefore I win.
 
1:22 PM
@BartekBanachewicz try moving away from the apple eco system.
 
@thecoshman I did that about a year ago.
 
@Nisk lol
 
@BartekBanachewicz but you really do want the competition
 
@thecoshman lol
 
o_0
 
1:23 PM
I want competition in principle.
 
Therefore I support closed protocols?
 
@thecoshman No, he doesn't. As long as his needs are satisfied, he's happy.
 
if a company has no competition, it has no reason to be good.
 
@CatPlusPlus Therefore I pay for good stuff.
 
It's vendor lock-in
 
1:24 PM
if someone offers me something better than spotify I can think about change
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes for now, sure
 
@thecoshman Altruism only makes sense when you gain from it, etc.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I think we've reached that in GPL discussion too
Funny how that works
 
@CatPlusPlus Socialism? yeah, funny alright.
 
This is the sort of fucking logic that results in huge problems, "my one bit of rubbish chucked in hedge is fine" said a million people wondering why the hedge was covered in rubbish.
 
1:25 PM
Oh, wait, I finally understood how he made the connection between my words and Atlas Shrugged.
It was the word "perfect".
lol
 
lol
(I don't get it.)
 
@sehe apologies for not being specific/accurate.
 
> C++ is a bloated language,
> Java bla bla bla
 
@Moshe A flood is not but a lot of single rain drops.
 
1:27 PM
@sehe don't remember now, it was years ago, but something around 30% of a random 100 hash sample. Maybe more, but 40% seems a bit high for a half-arsed attempt
 
@CatPlusPlus I support myself.
 
@sehe apologies for not being specific/accurate. x2
 
say, I'd very much like docking port to be standard across laptops
but that doesn't mean I won't buy one with a proprietary port
 
@BartekBanachewicz you self centred arse. Why do you even bother paying for food at the shops?
 
that's just silly.
@thecoshman because it's the exchange of goods. I give them money, they give me food. Me wants food, so me give them money.
money -> food.
I am not sure why do I have explain things like that but apparently this discussion is already so primitive.
 
1:30 PM
lol
 
@sehe funny thing is, when you phrase it like that I perfectly agree (LET'S CHECK IN OUR PRIVATE KEY INTO A PUB REPO), any tech can be misused. But for me the convenience of passwords has been becoming less convenient - which is the only reason as far as I see to use passwords. Hence I think trying to make passwords more secure, is perhaps not as desirable to let's find a new solution that's more secure by architecture.
 
I voiced my opinion about Spotify support for open protocols on their forums.
 
is money in the category of goods
 
I just don't feel that such a boycott is reasonable.
 
@Moshe My synopsis: Atlas Shrugged is about a dystopian society where the intellectual elites leave the rabble to live on a society falling apart just to show those ungrateful bastards how badly they need the intellectual elites. In the end the elites promise to build the perfect society. It preaches objectivism, and is its "bible". (The joke is that that society is so not perfect it hurts and Bartek associated "perfect" with "objectivist")
 
1:31 PM
But of course, that makes me a "self centred arse" and who knows what else.
 
Golgafrincham
 
I always thought goods were the things that you trade like food for other stuff
and food for money is not a trade
 
@BartekBanachewicz What makes you a self-centered arse is dismissing the possibility that it is a problem, on the basis that your needs are satisfied.
 
@AlexM. item for item is barter
 
trying hard to make a bartek pun
I can't think of anything
so frustrating
 
1:33 PM
In economics, a good is a material that satisfies human wants and provides utility, for example, to a consumer making a purchase. A common distinction is made between 'goods' that are tangible property (also called goods) and services, which are non-physical. Commodities may be used as a synonym for economic goods but often refer to marketable raw materials and primary products. Although in economic theory all goods are considered tangible, in reality certain classes of goods, such as information, only take intangible forms. For example, among other goods an apple is a tangible object, while news...
 
You don't have to make a boycott to show understanding of the problem.
Dismissal is the diametrically opposite view.
 
Atlas shrugged and bought the speakers
11
 
rotfl
 
Yeah, have to thank Bartek for triggering in me the realisation that the Golgafrincham are a (humourous) deconstruction of objectivism.
 
1:35 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes From what I've seen in history, morally objectible practices (like Apple AirPlay) tend to provide consumers with best experience. One might argue whether this is a problem for all those people "locked" in the apple ecosystem.
Frankly though, they seem more happy with the devices they use than people who opt for open alternatives.
 
@Moshe Or you can play BioShock.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I'm writing an app in Swift now.
 
I don't feel I'm in a position to judge those people for their choices, you, however, seem to.
> They chose wrong, because they supported a closed platform.
 
Interestingly, even though people usually consider BioShock to be a deconstruction of objectivism, I think its stands better as an exploration of the contradiction between player choice and story narrative.
 
@BartekBanachewicz (Grudgingly assuming your anecdotal hypothesis) Ever considered the others might be unhappy because the locked-in ruin it for everyone else?
 
1:38 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes do you feel unhappy for not using Apple hardware?
maybe that means you should buy some.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I'll say it again to be clear: I have issue mainly with your insistence that it isn't a problem on the basis that your needs are satisfied.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What would you expect me to do or acknowledge for you to not have this issue?
 
Not be a self-centered arse.
 
Of course, as a self-centered arse, that's unlikely to change.
 
1:40 PM
that's very specific innit
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Be realistic.
:D
 
@milleniumbug ninja'd.
 
Yeah I'm totally going to show compassion towards people buying shitty products because they're Open Martyrs
LMAO.
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's called empathy.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, it is. All there is to it is the bit that goes "on the basis that your needs are satisfied.".
 
1:40 PM
Try it sometimes.
 
ITT IT is religion.
 
@BartekBanachewicz lol
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Point being, I really don't see that problem.
If I felt "locked" or "forced" by things I buy I wouldn't buy them
 
@milleniumbug IT is why I became a software developer.
 
Why should anyone inflict that on him/herself?
 
1:42 PM
fuck fixing printers.
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's sad.
@BartekBanachewicz Always with the I, huh?
Never the we.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Why do people "lock-in" to vendors? Why do they buy hardware that locks them in?
Why are they casualties of the market?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Because they don't care. Because they don't understand the consequences. So many explanations.
People kinda started to get it with personal computers, but then the smartphone revolution came and it all went bonkers.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes If they don't care, can you, truthfully, say that they're making a wrong choice?
 
Vendor lock-in proved to be a problem time and again
 
1:44 PM
@BartekBanachewicz See, you keeping hitting on irrelevant (and nonsensical: "wrong" choice?) points.
 
If it works for them to be locked in, do you feel entitled to tell them what to do?
Isn't that Aynrandish?
 
You seem to consider that everyone is always capable of making a rational and well informed decision.
But we're humans, we're so shit that we managed to invent marketing just to exploit that.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, because they are self-centered arses who don't understand that they are, in fact, making difference, and are making the situation of general population worse?
 
In the same vein most people were perfectly happy with IE6
 
ahem, so we're supposed to educate people about dangers of vendor lockin. Got that.
What if some people still want that?
 
1:45 PM
@BartekBanachewicz "If it works for them" is Aynrandish.
 
@EtiennedeMartel frankly, yeah.
 
Rational egoism (also called rational selfishness) is the principle that an action is rational if and only if it maximizes one's self-interest. The view is a normative form of egoism. It is distinct from psychological egoism (according to which people are motivated only to act in their own self-interest) and ethical egoism (that moral agents ought only to do what is in their own self-interest). == Philosophy == Rational egoism is discussed by the nineteenth-century English philosopher Henry Sidgwick in The Methods of Ethics. A method of ethics is "any rational procedure by which we determine what...
 
@BartekBanachewicz That means they are either stupid or self-centered. :P
 
@BartekBanachewicz And... no. We're irrational, full of double standards, and incredibly easy to manipulate.
3
 
@Griwes lol
 
1:46 PM
Really, you should drop the attempt to paint me as a selfish prick an objectivist.
 
so what you're painting is a world where noone buys proprietary/closed products
how perfect
 
Psychological egoism is the view that humans are always motivated by self-interest, even in what seem to be acts of altruism. It claims that, when people choose to help others, they do so ultimately because of the personal benefits that they themselves expect to obtain, directly or indirectly, from doing so. This is a descriptive rather than normative view, since it only makes claims about how things are, not how they ought to be. It is, however, related to several other normative forms of egoism, such as ethical egoism and rational egoism. A specific form of psychological egoism is psychological...
 
how utopian
 
now I have a term for it
 
@BartekBanachewicz Did you? You're still dismissing it as a non-problem, so there's nothing to educate.
 
1:47 PM
@BartekBanachewicz lol
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wow. That's a good concept to remember. It's what I hinted at here
2 hours ago, by sehe
@Nisk yeah. for selfish reasons I would agree. i'm not sure I think that companies should be so selfish though
 
it always annoyed me that I was able to find a path to me gaining benefit from my actions even if at first it looked like it was not the case
 
But I didn't know it was such a well-discussed concept
 
It's not really about products being proprietary
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'd say something long the lines of "you can use spotify and buy speakers for it, but you have to remember that if you want to swap for something else later, you might need to replace the thing". Is that not OK?
 
1:48 PM
That said, the problem with being self-centered is that, even though you make a decision that you think is the best for you (and maybe it really is), this can have wide consequences that have a negative impact for everyone as a whole.
 
28 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Interop is not optional
 
I mean, the "tragedy of the commons" isn't a joke.
 
@EtiennedeMartel That's not being self-centered, that's being moronic.
 
@CatPlusPlus so instead of allowing people make an informed decision, you're forcing it on them
amazing
 
@Puppy Same thing.
 
1:49 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Uh what
 
a rationally self-centered person should still accept some situations which are against his interests if he'll still benefit maximally overall.
 
@Nisk no problem. Let's blame your frustration with passwords not kept in a password database :) (I might cry long and hard once the passwords that are only in my Opera secure store become inaccessible)
 
@CatPlusPlus what do you mean by "not optional"?
 
@Puppy Kinda hard to call it "against his interests" then.
 
@Nisk We got there in the end
 
1:49 PM
Does that mean such products should be forbidden to sell?
Or that just you won't buy such things?
 
@BartekBanachewicz wat
 
That supporting closed protocols is harmful to everyone
 
@BartekBanachewicz It means that such products hurt us as a whole.
 
and what should be done about them then?
Should we forbid to trade such products?
 
A solution is not required for a problem to exist.
 
1:51 PM
But do you have a solution?
 
Anti-trust laws exist
 
@BartekBanachewicz Does it matter?
 
@CatPlusPlus should they be extended to things like SC?
 
Maybe
 
1:51 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Pretty much. It doesn't have to be against your interest even if viewing this issue as a self-contained problem would result in it being against your interest.
 
@BartekBanachewicz As soon as SpotifyCompetitor Connect shows up? Probably.
 
Internet wouldn't be where it is today if it was built on closed protocols
 
United we stand, that kind of stuff.
 
Also IBM PCs.
 
And cars.
 
1:53 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes you see, a proposed solution is something I can look at and say for example dismiss as unrealistic. What Cat proposed is certainly doable, but I'm not sure how it stands with free trade.
 
From what I gathered, problems are also something you can look at and dismiss as SEP.
 
Don't forbid selling things implementing the protocol
Require publishing the protocol spec
 
if we really agree that selling such stuff harms people, then yeah, let's forbid it
I'm starting to see the problem I think.
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's a terrible solution. It doesn't foster development.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes don't you think companies like Spotify would be forced to use Open standards instead?
or at least publicize the API?
 
1:55 PM
All standards should be open
 
cough ISO cough
 
@BartekBanachewicz But it still doesn't matter from the "here's a problem" standpoint.
 
@Griwes mm, it does change the way I think about that a bit.
of course it's a typical left/right political issue
IOW protecting people from themselves
 
Not really, it's just long-term thinking and not ignoring the history
 
user1804599
@thecoshman yes.
 
1:57 PM
@BartekBanachewicz So you can't acknowledge that a problem exist, if concerns about its existence are raised by someone who doesn't have a ready solution? o.O
 
@CatPlusPlus frankly, history shows that Apple ecosystem works.
often better than open equivalents.
 
@BartekBanachewicz oh sure, and how much cheaper does mr rapes his staff need to be before you turn a blind eye? Have some fucking principles man!
 
@sehe All's well! Now back to other daily frustrations :D
 
@Griwes Subjective tinnitus has no cure. YAY I don't have a tinnitus anymore.
 
@Griwes no?
 
1:58 PM
@Griwes Dammit. It's not working. You sold me snake oil.
 
Apple solves problems with hardware inter-compatibility by removing it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes :D
 
@thecoshman not ignoring the history of this conversation, you haven't brought anything valuable to it so far (my opinion). Hence - k.
 

« first day (1648 days earlier)      last day (3302 days later) »