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3:00 PM
Visible light shouldn't expose any internals, unless this orc of yours has translucent skin.
 
user1804599
And then information hiding is irrelevant to OOP.
 
@BartekBanachewicz the programmer, unless there's a tool doing it by default
 
@рытфолд That. With Haskell, you'd have exactly the same need for information
 
@AndyProwl what is being read from the parameter by the draw?
 
user1804599
You can also hide position from draw functions in FP.
 
3:00 PM
@BartekBanachewicz You answer that
@рытфолд You can, always
 
@BartekBanachewicz It depends on what draw() has to read, and what information Orc holds. E.g. does Orc contain the position of the orc, or the mesh of the orc, or the health? Depends
 
user1804599
I see objects as tuples of functions.
 
you only need drawing-related functionality to draw
 
So my point exactly is that Orc isn't obvious
 
you don't need a single Orc class to encapsulate all the work an orc can do
 
3:01 PM
Orcs are stupid things with big scary axes
 
Loops seem to cater the same need as OOP: antropocentrism, giving humans a "sense" of recognition. That safe feeling of "kindergarten" grasp
In which the Orc became the owner of it's contours, the lines recognized by an observer
Which is obviously complete bullocks
 
but our Orc class doesn't correspond to that being in a natural way
 
Prezoisely
6 hours ago, by sehe
@BartekBanachewicz There's the problem. The human has a model of the car. The program just transforms data.
I feel we're repeating
 
Orc game object
	Orc behavior script
	Stats
	Some random shit
	Mesh Stuff
	Mesh Renderer
	More stuff
 
@sehe it's a recurring thought alright
 
3:03 PM
"stats" is a class as much as the orc behavior is
and they all compose the orc game object
which you neatly pack in a reusable thing (prefab in unity)
 
@sehe Anthropocentrism takes an h in english doesn't it?
 
@AlexM. see that's why 99% of game designs collapse
 
@BartekBanachewicz You need to study more philosophy.
 
what collapse?
 
Have you read GEB?
 
3:03 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes no
 
people make games with Unity just fine
 
You should.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes in addition to type theory, right. I forgot robots don't sleep
my gripe with OOP is that the models it produces are weird
 
@Rerito Just as in its Greek roots. Shame on sehe to make such an obvious mistake.
 
in a pursuit of logical division and modularity, our concept of reality is lost
 
3:05 PM
@Rerito not with me :)
 
I don't mind OOP and I can design games with it :(
dunno what to say here
 
OOP designs construct complicated mesh of connections and dependencies in a way that makes certain type of changes easy, but I feel that with every added class, it gets worse
 
Let's not drive him away from his point. Bartek's point was that draw() should not be a member of Orc if Orc is not meant to hold graphic information - it violates SRP. I think we all agree with that. I think Bartek was trying to imply that OOP somehow forces you to make draw() a member function, and therefore is flawed. I would agree on the conclusion if the premise held, but I don't understand why the premise holds.
 
GEB is one of those books I get halfway through and then forget to finish
 
What's GEB?
 
3:06 PM
Godel, Escher, Bach
 
@AndyProwl It doesn't in real design. My idea is that it should according to the idea of OOP
 
Awesome book I got halfway through and then forgot to finish
 
user1804599
@BartekBanachewicz s/the/my/
 
@BartekBanachewicz This is what I have troubles recognizing
 
@BartekBanachewicz You seem to have trouble with things like meaning and models and language, so I'll recommend philosophy over type theory.
 
3:07 PM
have any of you used QNX on the desktop before?
 
14 mins ago, by Alex M.
by thinking it's some sort of religion?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes MU :| Or you mean "But I myself wouldn't touch a guitar with a ten-foot pole!" /cc
 
what's religious in the way you approach OOD?
 
religious is probably too much said
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't care enough :S
 
3:08 PM
but you mention that you should make draw() a member of an orc class because OOP says so
I don't think I should do anything tbh
I just write what makes sense
 
@AlexM. how do you determine that?
 
@AlexM. Dogmatic.
 
@AndyProwl !!!!
 
@BartekBanachewicz I can work with it
 
@sehe I know :( I lost stamina
 
3:09 PM
There's a POV where .draw() on Orc makes sense
 
it's certainly not the "model-by-real-life" POV
 
hell, you presented a design where an Orc has a mesh inside (uh)
 
I’m half-way through although I did not forget it. I’m reading other stuff.
 
because things don't draw themselves :)
@BartekBanachewicz an orc prefab
 
@AndyProwl I must admit the last chapters (involving genetics) didn't quite have the same "pull" on me
 
3:10 PM
@Rerito I just singled out GEB because it's the one philosophy book programmers tend to value.
 
@AlexM. What I have problems with is not the "should" part, it's the "says so" part
 
an orc prefab is a container for things
 
@AndyProwl Okay, what does OOP say WRT designing orcs
 
like a List<Component> if you want
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes and musicians. OR BOTH
 
3:10 PM
we have a list of things NOT TO DO
 
@sehe Programmers don't value musicians.
 
@BartekBanachewicz What else is new
 
if I were to model by real life like OOP says
 
@sehe I stopped where he talks about the organization of thoughts in the brain and stuff.
 
SRP doesn't tell you what to do. It tells you what to not do.
 
3:11 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes False. I value myself (as a musician, even)
 
I'd consider that eyes transmit the information required for rendering to the brain
and the brain builds the image based on what it receives
 
@AndyProwl Knee deep in anthills over here.
 
@AlexM. the screen is your boundary here.
 
what screen?
 
@LucDanton I think I survived that part.
But didn't get much further
 
3:12 PM
I was mostly on about how if we think about OOP trying to model real life objects and how they interact
draw() inside an orc doesn't make sense
 
Fuck, you mean it goes on with the brain after that? Still?
 
Yes, AFAIR
Which is why I lost stamina
 
I’d better pick it up and see for myself.
 
The nice thing about OOP models is they are so many to choose from
 
@LucDanton Probably.
 
3:13 PM
Lisp generic methods are not tied with the object
 
let's just stop trying to see which way of programming is so much better and should be used exclusively
and let people program like how it makes sense in their situation
 
@AlexM. the PC screen
@AlexM. what does?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I told you
I'm not doing the real world eyes + brain comparison for nothing
 
@AlexM. see I'm trying to understand how it makes any sense
 
If you like the brain parts, I'll also recommend Penrose's The Emperor's New Mind.
 
3:14 PM
@AlexM. Your design doesn't make sense for me.
 
does the desk in front of you draw itself for you
because it doesn't for me
I build its image based on the info I perceive
 
@BartekBanachewicz Orcs in particular, nothing I guess. About types in general, that implementation details that realize a certain abstraction should be hidden. This doesn't mean that draw() needs to see those details though.
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's been sitting on my shelf for a while. Physics scares me.
 
to continue on the orc prefab idea
 
And it scares me because I'm not good enough to get it.
 
@AndyProwl but if draw is a free function, and Orc exposes some data to it, why do we bundle some functiality with the Orc?
 
3:16 PM
where the orc prefab is just a component container
you can have a single pass through all game objects
 
What determines what functions should be tied to their respective data instances?
 
and if one of them (they're containers!) has a renderer component
you render it
I think this is easy to work with
and makes sense
 
@AlexM. that doesn't sound like OOP
that sounds like data-driven design
 
@AndyProwl Pity. I have a destroyed (read: it has a slightly broken spine) copy for sale.
 
@AndyProwl Programs are just machines that operate on information. They transform data.
Any abstractions on top (ownership, access...) are just brain tricks to cope with complexity. Cf. neural nets that don't discriminate; they just take the inputs and make it jell. Somehow
 
3:17 PM
@BartekBanachewicz it's ECS I guess
 
@BartekBanachewicz Those that help realizing the abstraction you want to realize, and no more.
 
which can be done with OOP too
 
I just fail to see why tying data representation to the methods that operate on it is relevant in any way :/
 
Everything can be done despite OOP
 
Maybe I'm just dumb, but I don't understand OOP anymore
 
3:18 PM
what's there to understand?
 
You can implement a pure FPL with OOP, no doubt
 
Another example: should the Orc class contain coordinates, or not?
 
38 secs ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
I just fail to see why tying data representation to the methods that operate on it is relevant in any way :/
 
if there was anything that killed designs
it was this kind of overengineering
 
@BartekBanachewicz Huzzah. It's relevant to human thinking. Period.
 
3:19 PM
@AlexM. it's metaengineering if anything. And you wouldn't have your precious ECS, Unity and all of that if not for discussions like this one, so shush about that.
 
@BartekBanachewicz You're definitely not dumb. It seems to me you're just assuming that since OOP is not perfect, then it is useless, or entirely wrong.
 
I'm not sure I could go to a colleague and tell him "we can't do that thing because that's not how OOP works!" when he's suggesting something that would simplify things
with a straight face I mean
 
@AndyProwl Or: because OOP is popular, it must be important for something
 
@AlexM. like a Singleton?
 
shrug
 
3:20 PM
Singlethon, disappointing to see such an obvious mistake
 
there still is not one message saying what is is Bartek should actually do
 
@AlexM. so you're perfectly fine with using singletons?
 
Singletons don't simplify things.
 
They really don't.
 
@rubenvb Starboad. At least 2
 
3:21 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes they do if you limit yourself to "simplicity" whatever @Alex means by that
 
@BartekBanachewicz if they make sense in the given situation, yes
it would be silly to ban a possible solution without trying it because a dogma says so
 
@sehe uhu. You have a different starboard. Or a different definition of "should actually do"
 
@BartekBanachewicz But what's wrong with the concept of a vector which encapsulates the way it's implemented and offers abstract primitives for manipulating, rather than having a flat list of bytes that can be manipulated by free functions?
 
@AlexM. is "we don't want to think about a proper modular design" a justification enough?
 
@BartekBanachewicz No, they don't. Global variables are the simple.
Singletons are just complicated global variables.
 
3:23 PM
@BartekBanachewicz that's another one of the possible solutions
and applies mostly at the start
say, you have this huge conglomerate of libraries holding together a global business
 
@AlexM. let me rephrase how I understood that: "good design is one of the possible solutions"
 
written around singletons
it's given to you
you have to implement a new feature
what do you do:
 
@AlexM. Then you will never have to wait at work, because there's always something to do.
 
1) Keep the current design in mind and go on with singletons, ensuring the consistency is not broken and that programmers can immediately use your new feature.
2) Go on about how the design is broken and should completely be replaced, while implementing your non-singleton feature, getting ready to answer to questions like "why is your feature not working the way everyone expects?"
 
@AndyProwl if it's a list of free functions, I can import another list of free functions operating on it. I'm not restricted to whatever has been bundled with the particular instance.
 
3:26 PM
@rubenvb or you don't realize your message is mighty ambiguous :) chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/21240572#21240572
27 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@AlexM. focus on the orcs
 
@BartekBanachewicz What's a free function?
 
@BartekBanachewicz But preventing clients to mess up with that flat list of bytes makes sense. If clients have access to the representation, then they could do things that violate the invariants of the type.
 
That argument makes no sense.
There are only two kinds of functions: the ones that need to know about the internals, and the ones that don't.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes interesting
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes one that's not owned by a slave master
 
3:27 PM
Free functions vs member functions are a dichotomy that is not relevant.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes free functions compose differently than member functions though
 
And some languages just don't have the dichotomy at all.
 
@BartekBanachewicz IOW a class method is also a free function (that takes on instance of the class as argument)
 
@BartekBanachewicz How so?
 
@sehe so where's the OOP here?
 
3:28 PM
1 min ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
There are only two kinds of functions: the ones that need to know about the internals, and the ones that don't.
 
I agree that continuing with a bad design is not good, but sometimes it's better than rewriting it
mainly due to the cost of rewriting it
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's not specific to OOP
 
notifying everyone
applying it
testing it
 
@BartekBanachewicz It is more than member functions vs free functions is.
 
@AlexM. if you don't think about design, next product you spit out is also going to be bad. And another one after that too.
 
3:29 PM
depends on the type of product
 
if that were true, games would be in a really bad shape
 
@BartekBanachewicz why are you looking for OOP there
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Seems to me that in FP there are also functions working on opaque types and knowing the details. Where's the distinction.
@AlexM. which is pretty fucking true. Gamedev is a horrible cesspit of shitty code and everyone knows that.
 
3:30 PM
@BartekBanachewicz There isn't. You seem to think FP and OOP are disjoint.
 
@BartekBanachewicz yes, but the end products are good
 
@sehe because I'm trying to understand OOP
 
"that". I lost you. You were starting about free functions. To which I said, members are also free functions (but implicit friends)
 
@AlexM. Who said anything about end products? We're talking about programming and design.
 
I mean tell me that GTA V is such a good game because Rockstar had the best software design
1 min ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@AlexM. if you don't think about design, next product you spit out is also going to be bad. And another one after that too.
 
3:31 PM
@AlexM. you ............................................................................... the point
@AlexM. bad -> badly designed, come on. You said that "you inherit a bad legacy codebase".
 
I'm just going on about what you're saying
oh
 
@BartekBanachewicz focus on the Orcs. Don't design Orclang. It will just mean that Orcs will never happen
 
yup, if you learned anything during the first codebase
 
@AlexM. I meant you will create another badly designed legacy codebase
 
you'll apply it during the 2nd
 
3:32 PM
@AlexM. how do you learn if you keep adding new singletons?
@AlexM. adding more singletons worked the first time so it should work now right
 
I was not saying that
 
How did we arrive from orcs to singletons
 
I was saying that not adding them was not cost effective
not that you were adding them
not aware of whether or not it was a good design
nothing stops you from going to the next meeting and telling everyone how the new service should be modelled differently
 
@sehe I don't design that way. I can't think in OOP anymore.
 
@AlexM. That's pretty much the primary reason gamedev is different from the rest: codebases are closer to throw away than in the rest of the field. "The 2nd" just doesn't make sense in many other kinds of software development.
 
3:34 PM
@AlexM. and how do you come up with "differently"? :/
 
@BartekBanachewicz by knowing about a different way
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes All of it in general, or say the glue-code between the 3rd party middleware in particular?
 
@AlexM. which happens how
 
@BartekBanachewicz you're rambling now. It was in response to chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/21240921#21240921
 
oh c'mon
you read fucking books
you watch TV
 
3:35 PM
@AlexM. which are created how?
 
seriously what question is that
 
someone has to write the goddamn books
 
you asked me in what kind of situation I'd find the singletons appropriate
I gave you an example of a situation
 
God does. On occasion
 
I dunno why you're asking these things
 
3:36 PM
@AlexM. It's a bad example. Adding more singletons only makes it worse.
 
and I told you why it's better than not adding them
 
Not adding more singletons doesn't require removing the existing ones.
 
> "why is your feature not working the way everyone expects?"
 
@AlexM. No, that failed.
 
if it's some sort of internal functionality, yes
if it's on the client's side, no
 
3:37 PM
Still not making sense.
 
I'm not going to tell my users to suddenly start doing dependency injection when they need it because I don't want to follow what the other 45 libs do
 
@AlexM. That had the wrong underlying assumption that not adding singletons would result in code that is worse than adding them.
 
@sehe It's not about Orclang. It's about Meta-Orc.
 
@AlexM. Yeah, that's the same wrong assumption.
 
inb4 global variables are not singletons and are better
 
3:38 PM
uh what
 
@BartekBanachewicz have fun
 
Just use proper fucking design.
 
@AlexM. That too, but it's not necessary.
 
@BartekBanachewicz well if only you left it at that
 
@StackedCrooked coliru seems down nevermind. Chrome is dumb with proxies
 
3:40 PM
it would be great if everyone did their job however they saw fit and we didn't have a million of "proper designs"
 
bad design appears because people think like you
 
@AlexM. mmm
@BartekBanachewicz classy
 
@BartekBanachewicz my design is not bad m8
maybe to you
 
it takes just one random uneducated programmer to commit to a stupid decision
and then everyone else suddenly has to cater for that?
 
or one random snob to do the same
 
3:41 PM
yes, let's call everyone who tries to make sense of this mess a snob now
 
design needs to be adapted to situations
 
because writing bad code because "deadline" and "legacy" is suddenly cool
 
and situations are different
 
it's disgusting.
 
can we stop this, it's going nowhere
 
3:42 PM
@BartekBanachewicz You prefer to be called "a random uneducated programmer"?
@AlexM. Oh hell yes. It's getting to the center of things. Bartek bartekking
 
@AlexM. so far the only adaptation of your I saw was "a) don't think too much b) if given a bad codebase, go with it"
can't you seriously see the correlation between a) and b) ?
 
correlation is not causation
 
IME there tends to be causation between a) and b) though
At least, I see this a lot in my work environment
 
@BartekBanachewicz ok, I'm not sure where I said that but I'll expand
 
3:44 PM
a) Don't try to overengineer if it's not worth the cost.
b) Preserve familiarity and ease of work if the situation does not allow for a complete rewrite.
these depend on the situation
and the situation has many factors playing in
not only "deadline" and "legacy"
but also the teams you're working with
the people in them
and how they react to change
 
@AlexM. how do you determine what's "over" engineering?
 
bringing massive changes to the teams' workflow in a short period of time is definitely overengineering
 
@BartekBanachewicz when talking about design is impeding progress more than not talking about it would.
Thing is, to know absolutely certain which would impede progress the most, you'd have to split the timeline and see which one ends up being quicker.
 
if you want to improve a design you need to take it slower with an approach different from "this is such a bad design, throw it away and learn programming"
given that the situation requires it
in my situation it does
 
My point is thinking about design will speed up later development, but thinking about it too much will hamper all progress.
 
3:47 PM
I don't know about yours
 
@Alex The thing that annoys me in your argumentation is that you don't want to work with shitty designs, you see that they're shitty, but at the same time you seem to not care about producing good designs instead.
 
I never said I do not care
1 min ago, by Alex M.
if you want to improve a design you need to take it slower with an approach different from "this is such a bad design, throw it away and learn programming"
 
Meta lol: 'Why they down rate? - I am a programmer and working for clients as like you all and i have experience on around 10 languages'. Sure.
http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/284857/why-they-down-rate
 
+
 
that reasoning makes perfect sense if all you care about is recognition
 
3:49 PM
1 min ago, by Alex M.
given that the situation requires it
at my previous workplace I could have done a complete rewrite because the reactions to it would've been minuscule, given how much code was thrown away after each game, and how there was nothing stable in place that was supposed to be reused
right now, I can't
what I write sits at the border between the games and the whole meta stuff like analytics and all taht
a design change sends ripples to both halves
and even adding a new function that gamedevs had to call, caused bugs because they forgot to call it, eventually
I have no idea what going against the current design would cause
these are my only two real life experiences
 
@AlexM. Stopping adding singletons is the slow approach. Continuing do so is the retrograde approach.
 
I cannot talk about any others
 
I expected that I will have to deal with legacy issues in legacy software
at the same time, I'm trying everything i can to produce the best code possible
 
@AlexM. Fair enough, but "because they forgot to call it" is a sign that such function shouldn't exist.
 
but I really didn't want to talk about real life scenarios here
 
3:53 PM
It's one of the reasons two-phase init is bad.
 
it all started with the thought about that shitty orcs
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes, we're slowly building up a solution to minimize the amount of work gamedev teams have to do
which gets to what I was saying
nothing wrong with repairing a bad design, as long as the costs of doing it make it worth it
 
if what @R.MartinhoFernandes said is indeed right, OOP would be different from FP in mostly stuff like... what exactly? Inheritance?
 
you don't want to get bogdan in unnecessary work
 
will i ever find the perfect wallpaper? does such a thing exist
 
3:54 PM
Why prefer inheritance over trait composition?
 
@BartekBanachewicz you need to
 
If we consider a member function and a free function taking an instance as a first parameter equivalent, where is exactly the border between FP over OOP?
 
> I am a newbie
 
otherwise you give birth to things looked upon as absolute truths and must-dos
and people adapting their situations to design patterns
instead of the other way around
 
@MartinJames putting everything together: "I am a newbie in about 10 languages"
5
 
3:57 PM
@rubenvb did that whoosh?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Why does it have to be different in some specific aspect?
 
@sehe it plinged, yes, if that's what you mean?
 
Can't they be orthogonal?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I... uh
I don't know.
 
@AndyProwl Yeah, English and jQuery for two.
 
3:59 PM
lol
 
To be fully orthogonal, immutability in OOP should be a thing
 

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