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7:05 PM
What is dota?
I got to Dereferencing Overloaded Template Arguments.
Have no idea about LoL though. long longs?
 
whats up?
missed me? :P
 
@elichai2 Yes, but you're at close enough range now that I'm pretty sure I won't miss again.
 
user1804599
@elichai2 no
 
@TemplateRex still here?
 
@AndyProwl aye
 
7:12 PM
@TemplateRex does this structure for the proposal look ok to you? Still no standardese, still open issues, just about organization
 
@AndyProwl I cannot read it, it is not Markdown.
/me runs
 
@VáclavZeman it's a txt file
 
@AndyProwl lemme look
 
btw is @ScarletAmaranth still around? Long time no seen
 
user1804599
> seen 27s ago, talked 11d ago
 
7:18 PM
ah, so he's alive
cool :)
 
@AndyProwl wow, pretty well layed out
 
@TemplateRex I took your suggestions as a starting point
introduction/design goals etc
 
@AndyProwl although, it is a draft research paper
much like the early Stroustrup et al. multi-methods papers
 
there's no "scope & motivation" because I felt it would overlap a lot with introduction
 
Xeo
FFS
can they please finish up there
 
7:19 PM
once you have the implementation, you can condense into concrete proposal along the lines of library proposal format
 
Xeo
Feels like my furniture will start shaking if this continues
 
@AndyProwl I think working out all of this including an implementation should go along way to getting a PhD
 
lol
implementation will be the hardest part for me
 
Xeo
I CAN EVEN HEAR THEM THROUGH MY HEADPHONES, AAAAAH
 
@rightfold why not? lol
 
7:22 PM
@Xeo if you can hear them, they can hear you. Just let them know
 
@AndyProwl in that case you should look for help among compiler hackers (people from the old ConceptGCC branch perhaps)
 
@TemplateRex I thought about that, which is why I want to have a well-structured document to share
I can't handwave at others
 
@AndyProwl I was only half-kidding about the PhD, this is the type of document that grad students write to try and get an advisor
 
it's going to be a bit of a Catch-22 I'm afraid (implementation will show problems with theory, theory will have to be fixed and re-communicated, etc)
@TemplateRex I hope it's not going to be that demanding though
 
boring here... i think i'll leave you again lol
 
7:26 PM
@AndyProwl the base case should be doable, but you have to anticipate interefrence with regular inheritance, multiple inheritance, virtual inheritance, all those things combined with your stuff
 
@TemplateRex I'm not much worried about inheritance, because concepts won't "inherit" from each other - they'll be extendable through the same mechanisms used for concepts lite. And classes cannot inherit from concepts
What worries me the most are overload resolution and ADL now
Because there's a lot of tricky details I don't even know about
 
concepts not inheriting each other is dumb
 
you just use nested "requires" clauses or &&
same effect, but don't have to deal with virtual inheritance and stuff
 
@AndyProwl for some concept C, and regular class X: Y, can I relate C<X> and C<Y>?
 
concept inheritance is always virtual, since they don't have data members there's no meaningful distinction between non-virtual and virtual inheritance.
 
7:29 PM
actually I was thinking about them
 
> 15m awarded Refiner
wut
 
is there any technical obstacle to adding data members to concept specifications?
@TemplateRex If Y satisfies C, X satisfies C
 
that is not the question he asked.
 
then I don't understand the question
 
and I've been thinking about data members and can be kinda awkward since you lose the guaranteed triviality-emptiness that concepts hold
 
7:31 PM
LRIO has the gold edit+answer badge. lol
 
so you have to think about all sorts of awkward things like, say, virtual vs non-virtual inheritance, construction order, etc.
 
@Puppy sorry I was confused
 
no, you asked a perfectly good question.
simple example: in C#, IEnumerable<Derived> is-a IEnumerable<Base>.
and virtual concepts should permit the same flexibility.
 
@Puppy yeah Ok, that was my point, so with templates that does not hold, and why can it hold for virtual concepts?
 
7:32 PM
Uh. Reaper of Souls is 50% off.
Well, well.
 
what information is required for it to be feasible
 
@Puppy that's because IEnumerable is immutable?
 
@TemplateRex For templates it could hold if they wanted it to, depending on the template.
@AndyProwl But also because their type system can express that it should be true for this interface.
 
cause in case of mutability that would break type safety
 
which C++'s cannot.
 
7:33 PM
ah so the question was about a templated concept
got it now
 
right.
consider ImmutableContainer<Derived> -> ImmutableContainer<Base>
 
@AndyProwl basically I want to now how concept inheritance interplays with regular inheritance, are they orthogonal or can they mix?
 
or ImmutableContainer<Derived> -> ImmutableContainer<const Derived>
 
yes
@TemplateRex not sure what you mean by "can mix", but you can't have a concept inherit from a class or vice versa
the interplay I see is that if X : Y and Y satisfies C, X satisfies C
 
WTF 'Disk cache full' fron uTorrent. Needed reboot.
 
7:36 PM
but that might not be what you're asking, again :)
 
user1804599
lol µTorrent
 
user1804599
piece of junk
 
@AndyProwl with mix I mean concepts D : C and classes X : Y, what are the allowed conversions /patterns that will match?
 
I'm 3 assignments ahead of my professor.
He still hasn't corrected my first one :v
 
user1804599
Tell him he's a snail.
 
7:37 PM
I'd say an object of type X is always implicitly convertible to concept C if X models C, and to concept B if C refines B
(where "C refines B" roughly means C : B)
 
user1804599
Don't make concepts types.
 
^ Not sure how to parse the sentence
 
@AndyProwl and object of Y: X also models C and B
 
@TemplateRex yes
that's at least what seems reasonable to me at the moment
 
@AndyProwl ok, that makes sense
 
7:39 PM
@StackedCrooked Now it's this one.
 
Is it cheating to solve a Project Euler problem with code for the trivial cases, and with user input to judge the edge cases?
 
@Puppy I was also wondering if it makes sense for a concept to have requirements with negative logic, like "this expression should not be well-formed". Similar to = delete
 
@MohammadAliBaydoun Solving it with user input? Not sure what that means..
 
ok, gotta go, Andy looking forward to new version
 
@TemplateRex cheers, thanks for your help
 
user1804599
7:45 PM
@MohammadAliBaydoun nobody cares how you solve PE.
 
user1804599
There are no rewards so you can't cheat.
 
@StackedCrooked In this problem where we had to judge how many times player 1 would win over player 2 in a poker game, I had an edge case I was too lazy to handle
 
@AndyProwl I would expect those things to affect the users of the interface (deleted overloads and the like), but any type can fulfill a requirement of the style "x.foo is not valid". Even types that do provide a foo: pretend it’s not here any more.
 
@StackedCrooked So I just made it display the hand to the console and ask me to judge for myself
Thankfully, there was only one instance of it over the thousand game instances
 
you asked for help from other people?
 
user1804599
7:46 PM
PE isn't even necessarily solved by writing a program.
 
user1804599
You can solve it however the fuck you want to solve it.
 
@LucDanton Yes I also thought it would mostly for affecting the user of the interface, and the fact that any type which does not have a member may satisfy the negative requirement doesn't bother me, I was mostly wondering whether in situations like C& c = x; I should issue an error if the type of x does not satisfy the negative requirement
(e.g. has a foo() function where the concept specification says the equivalent of foo() = delete)
Practically I don't care if an infinite amount of type does satisfy a concept, because I will generate itables on demand
i.e. only when I encounter a piece of code where a type X is being used to initialize a pointer or reference to an) object of some concept type`C`
 
Due to TUs you can’t close the universe.
 
I don't get it
 
7:52 PM
Sorry.
 
What's wrong with generating itables only for types which are actually used for initializing concept objects?
 
wot
 
if that happens in several translation units, the linker can merge those itables
 
@LucDanton Say I have a concept C that requires a function foo() to be present. Then I have a type X with a function foo(). If I never encounter anything like C& c = x; (where x has type X) while compiling the code, I won't generate all the machinery for treating X as a C.
So it doesn't matter if there is a concept D specifying bar() = delete, and a huge amount of type does not have member bar()
 
7:55 PM
I don’t
whatever
 
@TonyTheLion huh, interesting. One of those thing you never realise had a name
 
@LucDanton Perhaps I see what you meant: a type X might have foo() and still model a concept C that says foo() = delete because users of C won't get to call that function anyway (is this what you meant?). But the point is that the compiler will check whether X satisfies the requirements of C when you're trying to do something like C& c = x;, and issue an error
 
It’s like the (T const&); signature all over again (or std::has_copy_constructor and std::is_copy_constructible—you’re not the first one to run into this). What do we gain for observing candidate types so closely?
 
@TonyTheLion Let's menage a trois with rightfold until he yells our names
 
8:08 PM
@thecoshman Yea definitely didn't know it had a name.
@MohammadAliBaydoun What?
 
user1804599
It's dumb.
 
user1804599
It's a sign of duplication.
 
user1804599
It should break.
 
@LucDanton so it makes no sense to have a concept saying that foo(double) is OK but foo(int) is not?
 
8:11 PM
@TonyTheLion I'M SUGGESTING SEX.
 
@MohammadAliBaydoun don't be so cryptic
 
@MohammadAliBaydoun I'm not really into security bug fetishes.
 
@AndyProwl It does.
 
I like the description
 
8:13 PM
@LucDanton so you're saying that it makes sense for concept C to have foo(double) and foo(int) = delete on its definition, but it doesn't make sense for the compiler to issue an error when I'm trying to initialize a C& with an object of a type that has foo(int)?
 
Yes.
 
I understand
sorry it took a while
 
Or: int has no copy constructor.
 
wait that's different, int does satisfy the expression int x = y
even though it does not do so through a copy constructor
 
See std::has_copy_constructor.
 
8:17 PM
is that a thing?
 
Used to be, but not anymore (and never was).
 
so you're telling me to learn from its failure or something?
 
hey again
@LightnessRacesinOrbit still here?
 
8:21 PM
@LucDanton that's a slightly different thing though. It's about satisfying expressions rather than specific operations, not about not satisfying operations/expressions
 
Disagree.
 
ok so you see the modeling relation as "the user can write P => the type must satisfy P"
if the user can't write it the premise is false so the overall thing is true
and the modeling relation holds
 
Don’t think the antecedent is required.
 
interesting fact: in Wide, I have the same model (including constructor functions) for all types, including primitives like int.
 
I don't understand why, if you don't require the antecedent, the type doesn't have to satisfy negative requirements in order to model the concept
 
Jim
8:29 PM
Can someone help me with names of variable naming styles? I have camelCase and PascalCase. But What_Is_This_Called (if it has a name)? Thanks.
 
I wouldn't bother you so much if there was a book or something you could point me to
I wouldn't even know how to google these issues
 
Admittedly it’s not so much about satisfying a concept as erasing to a concept. Which I thought was the whole exercise (we already have ConceptsLite for satisfying a concept after all).
@AndyProwl Pierce comes to mind again. Look for existentials.
 
ok, thank you
interesting observation about satisfying vs erasing
that might be my problem
 
Because you are right that in CL if you could write a negative requirement, I would expect it to reject types that do satisfy the requirement (off the top of my head I don’t think you can though).
 
no, you can't in CL
 
8:33 PM
Keep in mind you can !Foo<T>().
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes am I right in recalling you're a 2000AD reader?
 
right, was just checking that
with nested requirements it is indeed like a negative requirement
 
user1804599
@TonyTheLion Beneviolent Dictator for Life
 
Don’t think nested requirements are boollike. But you can template<typename Concept> concept bool Not = !Concept(); or similar.
 
user1804599
Oh, Facebook changed their favicon.
 
8:39 PM
nested requirements are a require-clause according to the grammar, which expands to a requires constraint-expression, and constraint-expression is an or-expression
that should make it bool-like
template<typename T>
concept bool Y() {
    return requires(T y) {
        { y.foo() }
    };
}
template<typename T>
concept bool X() {
    return requires(T x) {
        requires !Y<T>();
    };
}
 
That means they’re not nested at all then lol. Because the requires higher-up is different altogether.
 
Not sure I follow this last part but in practice this means to me there can be = delete-like requirements. Still keeping in mind your point about erasure vs. satisfaction of course
 
Xeo
booooored
 
requires() { not-bool-like-at-all; typename neither-is-that; requires but-this-is; }
 
user1804599
yeah, user confusion is awesome, that's totally a feature. users LOVE being confused.
 
user1804599
8:43 PM
@CatPlusPlus Jeff's design philosophy in a single tweet!
 
@LucDanton for what I understand, all requirements evaluate to bool, even though some do not have the form of a bool expression
> A requires-expression evaluates to true if and only if every requirement in the requirement-list evaluates to true.
They evaluate to true if the expression is well-formed, and to false otherwise
 
Yeah but requires() { true; } is nothing like the requires true; in requires() { requires true; } :)
 
why not?
I mean, it's a requirement which evaluates to bool
 
Or requires(X x) { static_cast<bool>(x); } if you will.
 
8:46 PM
@Sofffia how do you like your murkdwno
 
@AndyProwl But they don’t all ‘accept’ bool-like things. A requires clauses takes requirements.
Syntactically it’s not the same.
 
and each requirement evaluates to bool
 
Irrelevant.
 
@CatPlusPlus hahah murkdown
 
8:47 PM
I think I see what you mean
well it can still be nested
because a requires-expression is a primary-expression
and an or-expression has primary-expression in its expansion
 
Yeah they’re superficially nested. It doesn’t go deeper :(
 
why not?
you can have a requires-expression inside another requires-expression
 
user1804599
That's what she said.
 
that means it's nested
 
@CatPlusPlus So, wait, Markdown has no standard.
 
8:49 PM
@rightfold lol
 
Or sense
 
It’s a requires expression an a nested requirement in a requires expression.
 
user1804599
If Markdown sucks, why did they use Markdown?
 
If you have T a[5][6] you have an array in an array. You’re nesting arrays.
 
Fuck this crappy context-sensitive guess-what-implementation-will-do-with-your-input piece of garbage shit
 
8:50 PM
We’re not nesting requires expression, we’re nesting the requires keyword ;)
Also, requires() { requires requires(X x) { x + x; } } lol
 
I don't understand, we're nesting requires-expressions according to the grammar
requires-expression can have a nested-requirement which can have a requires-expression
 
2 mins ago, by Luc Danton
It’s a requires expression an a nested requirement in a requires expression.
‘in a nested requirement’
 
"in" instead of "an"?
oh
yes
 
@EtiennedeMartel lol no
 
so basically when I have a C& c = x; where C is a virtual concept the compiler needs to use a different procedure to check if x conforms to C than the procedure Concept Lite would use?
 
8:54 PM
16th century imperial units was more standardised than markdown
 
this would be a bit annoying
 
So it's like Python, but without an actual competent guy behind the reference implementation.
 
Don’t think I can answer off the cuff.
 
well, if CL allows for negative requirements and checks them, but for virtual concepts we don't want to check them because "erasure vs. satisfaction", then it needs to use a different procedure
 
@LucDanton lookin neat.
It didn't deviate too far from the original idea too :p
 
9:00 PM
Yeah I don’t feel bad for making some parts smart.
My next step is to rewrite all the concepts I have with it and see what happens.
 
Ell
evening everyone
 
9:18 PM
Hello?
Hi.
 
@Cinch Sorry, nobody here to talk to.
 
@JerryCoffin that's just too bad
 
@Cinch It is. I'm deeply saddened.
 
@JerryCoffin it's perpetually quite these days.
 
Well let me jump into things
Hello, does anyone have some tips about porting an app to Android?
I'm specifically currently writing a GUI for Android right now built on top of SDL
And then I plan to implement a game
If anyone is interested, I'll post it on Bitbucket once I'm finished
 
9:22 PM
Best try somewhere that cares about android and isn't full of no one
 
unfortunately it seems It'll take be awhile to get into the android room
 
So, yesterday I asked about whether to use Groovy or JavaScript+jQuery. I tried with Groovy and after some difficulties it turned out well.
I like its HTML DOM manipulation/iteration techniques.
def tables = node.'**'.findAll { it.name() == 'TABLE' }
 
Whoa I didn't know you could create another programming language for Java
 
Easy.
 
Ell
@VáclavZeman oh god
 
9:23 PM
Dem layers of abstraction are getting Victorian really fast
 
Ell
What is that?
 
@Ell If node is an XML/HTML node, '**' returns some kind of wrapper on which you can call findAll and the { it.name() == 'TABLE' } is a closure restricting the returned set.
'**' is search to depth. '*' searches only in immediate children of the node.
Quite nice.
XPath without XPath. :)
 
Meh CppCon talk on how to write classes lying about value-initialization (min. 14:00)
 
@AndyProwl Wait... did he say that int i{}; makes i contain garbage?
What.
 
@Griwes yes
 
9:28 PM
And no-one argued?
What.
 
now that slide is actually an attempt to write out what the compiler would generate as a default constructor
 
Everything in C++ is garbage so 0 is too
booyah
 
and if that was an accurate representation then he would be right
 
@CatPlusPlus SLAP
 
but as it's written, it's value-initialization
 
9:30 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Python has a non-garbage spec and also is not made on the premise of being impossible to parse
 
Ell
@Griwes I was confused about that also
I think he could have explained it a little better
 
the way he explained it, it's a lie
 
> Boys should get pregnant too
wat
user image
3
 
also at minute 18:00 he's saying "and then I assign it", but that's a copy-construction
perhaps I should stop here
 
Because uttering nonsense is really good for any cause
 
Ell
9:33 PM
@AndyProwl yeah he seems to be not very good :S
 
Welcome to C++, where people not knowing C++ give talks at C++ conferences.
 
Nobody knows C++ so that's the only choice
 
I knew that message.
Am I a prophet?
 
No
 
Nobody knows C++ is an interesting message
could be the title of a talk
 
9:35 PM
It's wrong
 
not so sure
 
I knew that Cat will make that specific message right after mine.
That's precognition for sure.
 
Stop mystifying C++.
C++ is nothing special.
 
fy
 
9:37 PM
C++ is especially messy
 
There was a Rule of 4?
I must have missed it
 
swap I guess
 
Oh, right.
 
4 drinks for every type you have to write
One for the concept, one for the name, one for the data and one for the methods
 
@CatPlusPlus ...or every type you have to type.
 
^^ wtf?
 
@JerryCoffin Too obvious
Also I'm bad at clicking
 
auto human = random_ethnicity();
 
@Mysticial snack overflow
 
9:41 PM
Also cat, go back to your [bbcode]bbbcde[/bbcode]
peasant
 
@Cinch There is a joke in there about friending a class.
 
murkdwn is the future
 
class Human
friend Genitals;
 
@Cinch You should read up on composition.
 
No, it's supposed to be modular right now
I need dynamic genital creation and have it added on and off as needed
 
9:45 PM
You're a Java EE programmer. What are you doing here in c++ land?
 
I'm here to get help on bringing my app to Android using their NDK
C++
 
@Cinch You have fun with that. (Was that helpful?)
 
LOL the irony
 
@Cinch As God is my witness, that wasn't irony! (hm....but what are the chances that God would be my witness though?)
 
Life is wonderful
I meant: Wine is wonderful.
 
9:55 PM
This is not an answer. If you require out help debugging your program. at least make it a SSCCE. See also Solve Your Problem by ALMOST Asking a Question on StackOverflow or Nobody writes testcases anymoresehe 13 secs ago
@Mysticial What the actual fuck?
> SPAM This user has two accounts and is upvoting 20+ answers – Brian Sep 11 at 14:43
 
> TFS is enterprise quality version control
 
> Zend Developer
Classic
 
@JerryCoffin well, what are the chances of something existing that doesn't?
 

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