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7:01 PM
@Mgetz Yes, but that's utterly irrelevant to std::string. In particular, std::string::length cannot be implemented as a call to char_traits<T>::length (std::string::length/std::string::size requires constant time, but char_traits<T>::length is linear).
 
I need to get back to work, I can argue with you about this later
 
It would (or at least could) be used by std::string when constructing a string from a pointer, but that only means that the C-string the pointer refers to needs NUL termination (which we already knew), not that the string itself must do the same.
 
Huh, Guys, what do you think about this edit: stackoverflow.com/posts/7955504/revisions
Well. I just reverted it. I agree the markup was somewhat shouty so I reduced that
 
I like the final result more than the other versions.
 
user3010322
@Mgetz std::string internally keeps a count to return the size in O(1) time. std::char_traits<T> and all of the functions therein are just old crappy interop from an old time in the standard. std::char_traits<T>::length, specifically, just counts the number of T instances until *ptr == 0: that's all.
 
7:09 PM
@Mgetz nobody forces you, unless you're willing to blame the tools
@LucDanton Yeah. That's what I was aiming for. I reckon this was the "gesture" of the edit. More like a comment saying "Try to keep it more to the point".
 
what linux do I use in a VM
 
I did want to respond to the evidence of fear in the OP too, though
 
I stand by my assertion that the lack of a guarantee that &s[0] can be passed around to functions requiring null termination massively decreases the value of std::string
 
@BartekBanachewicz Whatever floats yours
 
@Mgetz You mean, c_str has some crippling defect unknown to the rest of us?
 
7:11 PM
Non-mutable.
 
@Mgetz Well. "massively"? I suppose it could be a hindrance when you need to work with C api's. Nothing a simple mynamespace::c_str(std::string const&) can't fix
 
@sehe I wasn't quite happy with Lubuntu
 
@Puppy its immutable, you'd have to strdup it to modify it
 
it was fast, but had really annoying WM
 
@Puppy I was willing to grant the benefit of the doubt there
@BartekBanachewicz Whatever that is
 
7:12 PM
is there a linux that has just a shell, vim and package manager?
required full-color terminal support
 
@BartekBanachewicz lots
 
@Mgetz So then what's wrong with data()?
 
It’s the same.
 
@Puppy also const
 
@sehe like?
 
7:13 PM
@Mgetz Really, no mutable version for std::string?
 
@Puppy clearly no
 
@BartekBanachewicz debian, grml, gentoo, arch, mandriva, ec.
 
I assume it’s here to mimic the vector interface, save for the mutable bit.
 
that's what the whole argument was about
as operator[] allows you to modify the string in place but has no guarantees for null termination
 
then just push_back a 0 manually.
problem solved.
 
7:14 PM
Arch has news about haskell on the front page
 
But… the extra byte!
 
~~purr~~
 
@LucDanton Quelle horreur! (did I get that right?)
 
Absolument.
 
@JerryCoffin add a space before the "!", and you're perfect.
(yes, french has this difference with english.)
 
7:16 PM
I'll give Xubuntu 14.04 a try
 
@BartekBanachewicz installed it on a couple of PCs, works fine.
hasn't changed much since the last releases though
 
@EtiennedeMartel: As I predicted Ars says that Mario Kart 8 is nowhere near enough to bring Wii U into sales competition or profitability
 
Wii U has less processing power than latest NVidia 8" tablet
what would you expect
 
doesn't matter
it's about the games and there's just not enough games.
 
maybe it doesn't vOv
I never get this nintendo gimmick except early gameboys anyway
but mostly because they were really outstanding for that time
 
7:19 PM
@Puppy Give 'em time.
 
having such wide area of mobile gaming choices, I wouldn't look to Nintendo products at all, and home gaming is even worse for them
 
@FlorianMargaine Ah, thank you. Too late to edit though.
 
MK8 proved one thing: people sure love their rehashes, and 2015 is gonna be the year of the Nintendo rehash.
 
I hope that Steam OS is going to get going
 
well, I'm not going to argue that future Nintendo games absolutely can't reverse their fortunes.
I'm just saying that my earlier prediction of MK8 not being enough seems to be holding up.
 
7:21 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Hardware doesn't matter, games do. The PS2 is the best selling console of all time and it was the least powerful hardware of its generation.
 
uh thanks virtualbox for not scaling to high dpi
 
Bartek and his high DPI
 
it's great in general, and annoying at times
I can only imagine the pain of users of 3200x1800 Yoga Pro 2
with that pentangular pixel arrangement...
fun fact: with the same hardware it's about 80% of the price of mine
 
@BartekBanachewicz I kinda like it. Honestly, these days I don't really notice much differences in distros. All I do is open Opera and a terminal
 
uh wtf why can't I set up an x64 linux
 
7:24 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I kinda doubt it. There's just no compelling reason to support Linux if you're a game dev. More of them are, it seems, and being cross-platform is much easier when you licence an engine rather than write one, but it being technically possible doesn't really change the fact that you're making it technically possible to sell to virtually nobody.
 
why.
@Puppy the barrier for supporting linux gets lower because more and more people use ready-made engines
 
ISTR that the free versions of some players only support 32bit.
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, but you're still talking about lowering the barrier to sell to hardly anyone.
 
@BartekBanachewicz you suck?
@BartekBanachewicz possibly because you run a 32bit host <whistle/> otherwise... AMD? Old CPU? (half joking)
@ParkYoung-Bae Docker!
 
@sehe yes but windows
 
oh well
 
7:30 PM
I derped too :)
 
@BartekBanachewicz What VM are you using? Microsoft's VM only emulates a 32-bit CPU.
 
@JerryCoffin not on windows 8, it has full hyper-V
 
@Mgetz iff you enable the support for that (in BIOS + "Windows Features"), which in turn breaks VBox support
 
@sehe eh... I'll take hyper-v over oracle crap any day
 
@ParkYoung-Bae I responded to your derp. I can't help that you deleted it
@Mgetz It's hardly Oracle crap anyways.
Fanboyism rocks
 
7:33 PM
@sehe United we derp
 
@sehe my experience with it has been very.... mixed, much like my experience with everything else that oracle purchased from Sun
 
@Puppy @sehe @Park I had to disable Hyper-V
 
@ParkYoung-Bae Rather, you derp and one-up it!
 
@Mgetz it's really more fit for servers than for clients
 
@BartekBanachewicz I wasn't aware that you were doing windows, by the way. Yes on Windows, it does seem to require certain settings, but at work I'm sharing the same 64bit VMs across WIN/Linux dual boot (that's Win8)
@BartekBanachewicz Hehe. Guess how I launch that cluster that my screenshot showed:
for a in ceph{-{client,deploy},{01..03}}; do VBoxHeadless -s $a& done
 
7:36 PM
Yep, I have Win 8.1
It's really nice
 
Stuff it in a startup script and done.
 
vagrant up :v
 
well I figured I might just rdp to my desktop vm
but that appears annoying
hmph
also I suppose that DPI problems would be even more present
decisions decisions
 
. @isocpp Looks like it's gonna be more like "8 of 2·N" at this rate http://t.co/UHcDH3qxEv
> The getting started guide will use Vagrant with VirtualBox, since it is free, available on every major platform, and built-in to Vagrant. After reading the guide though, don't forget that Vagrant can work with many other providers.
@CatPlusPlus Ok. Bad thing they prominently advertise "VMWare integration" on their homepage, while VBox is actually built in
 
Ell
@Puppy All the modern engines are supporting linux anyway
it's not really any extra cost
 
7:47 PM
@sehe Gotta get money somehow
They have some partnership with VMware
 
Do you actually use vagrant?
 
so I just ssh'd to my vm on my desktop
 
making the rest of the stuff support Linux is some extra cost, and there's the cost of supporting people who have problems because they misconfigured Linux and shit like that.
 
7:48 PM
It works perfectly fine with VBox
 
@CatPlusPlus Ah. So they fly VBox under the radar.
 
and like I said, it's not as much cost as it used to be, to sell to pretty much nobody.
 
@CatPlusPlus Gun' try
 
Not really
 
I should learn how to use this vagrant thing
 
7:49 PM
VMware has better I/O performance for shared folders
But you can also use NFS or CIFS to mount them so vOv
 
there's this weird shit in how dink smallwood manages font colors; essentially, you have a # of preset colors identified using a character (e.g. 1 or $); and if you want to change them, you write down in your script something that really reads like "yellow is now (255, 255, 255)"
 
@BartekBanachewicz I think I prefer docker
 
It's just ads
 
yesterday, by Etienne de Martel
You really should stop with the "If it's not good for me it's good for nobody" bullshit.
 
Docker doesn't preclude using Vagrant
 
7:49 PM
Hello.
 
I think. I have more experience with vagrant, but the little I have with docker is satisfying.
 
Ell
@Puppy The number of linux users is rising
 
@CatPlusPlus why would you use vagrant if you use docker?
 
Ell
and the reason to use opengl is rising too
 
@FlorianMargaine To manage the host, and the containers
 
7:50 PM
@sehe @Puppy I second that
it's getting tedious and annoying
 
Is that thirding?
 
and look who's saying this
 
@CatPlusPlus oh, for sysadmins usage?
 
@sehe I suppose
 
It was always annoying. But that's fair game here.
The tedium counts
 
7:50 PM
You still want environment parity between dev and prod
So you should use a VM host for the Docker containers that's ideally identical to your production environment
 
but that's managed by docker
 
Plus, isolation
There's always a host
 
oh, you mean you run docker containers in production too
 
Even if it's just running Docker
No, not yet
 
r/shittyprogramming had has some pretty good stuff lately.
 
7:53 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Hey man. Don't tell me you're shitposting too.
 
Don't we all post shit?
 
@Rapptz Well, a hell of a lot of Nintendo is built on the same old franchises.
 
That's not what rehash means.
 
And incremental updates of the same core gameplay concepts is the main driving factor behind their design philosophy.
 
7:54 PM
You're almost as bad as /v/.
 
Maybe it's not what it means. Maybe I've picked the wrong word.
Although you're quite fast with the hyperboles there. Have I struck a nerve?
 
@CatPlusPlus uh, I don't see the point of this. There are dockerfiles (which can use puppet too for example)
 
Guess which dumbass invites people over and doesn't give them the address.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Not really. I'm talking about when using the word 'rehash'.
 
@Rapptz So, TIL that misusing a word is shitposting.
 
7:56 PM
@EtiennedeMartel You're so stupid.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sssshhh
 
Ooops, I meant "interesting". That was not shitposting, I swear.
Accidental shitposting is still shitposting.
 
@EtiennedeMartel On /v/, people shitpost all the time by saying "x y z is a rehash" and then you started saying it.
 
@sehe My opinion of Linux has nothing to do with it. The sales statistics for people who've converted their games to run on Linux are that hardly anybody buys them. Whether or not there is or is not a substantial body of Linux-using game-buyers is totally independent of me. Except that I'm obviously not one of them.
 
Hence the conclusion.
 
7:57 PM
@Rapptz I don't hang out on /v/. I think that community is cancerous.
That being said.
Nintendo mostly designs their games by starting with the idea of making a remake of one of their older title, and then improving on that idea.
Most of Nintendo's catalog is basically their previous titles, remade over and over again on a different platform.
 
how is that different to any other game dev, except that Nintendo are remaking one of their own titles instead of somebody else's?
 
I'm not saying it's a bad thing.
 
everybody in every field makes incremental improvements on what came before them.
 
And anyway, they churn out excellent games.
 
real innovations are pretty hard to come by
 
7:59 PM
mario kart 8
good stuff
 
'rehash' will always have a negative connotation in my mind
because that's what it's always used as
 
I haven't played any Nintendo games since N64, so I don't know how similar they really are.
 
@Rapptz Because it has.
 
but taking an existing game as a starting point is extremely common practice for basically everybody, as far as I'm aware.
 
@EtiennedeMartel It's not a rehash as soon as you get past that comma.
 
8:00 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah.
@Puppy Especially if the game is good. I mean, don't fix what isn't broke.
 
user784668
Is there a decent piece of documentation on writing new LLVM targets?
 
@Puppy Tbh this article is pretty lame. Nintendo posts loss for Q2 which Mario Kart came out in the last month of it.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Early gameboys were not a gimmick.
 
> How to decrement a FILE* pointer in C
10
 
Nintendo is clearly sexist, btw
 
8:06 PM
@Rapptz Sure, but you'd think that most existing owners who want to buy it bought it relatively soon after it came out.
 
user784668
@sehe link
 
@sehe You're so funny!
 
I wonder, if I thrash Nintendo, how long it'll take before @Rapptz jumps to defend them.
 
Question of the day
 
@EtiennedeMartel Depends if it's worth defending.
 
8:06 PM
@Fanael here stackoverflow.com/questions/25045814/… /cc @R.MartinhoFernandes
 
> Meanwhile, the success of Mario Kart 8 highlights what was otherwise a quiet quarter for the Wii U. The game represented 64 percent of the 4.39 million software shipments across the three months, with 80 percent of the racer's uptake coming from outside of Japan.
64% is most btw
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes they weren't
 
@Rapptz Of that I am aware.
 
user784668
@sehe I'm disappointed, I expected more crap.
 
found out yesterday that LLVM's debug info handling is kinda broken, and that DWARF debug info doesn't handle new languages cleanly.
I could emit debug info pretending that I'm C++, though.
 
8:13 PM
@Rapptz For the record, I'm the most critical of the things I like. If I dislike it I usually don't spend enough time with it to really spot the flaws, of I can just say it sucks and not bother with it.
So if I constantly shit on Nintendo, then maybe it's because I actually like their games.
Otherwise I wouldn't care.
 
I'm not saying otherwise
 
(Also I want them to win, a world without Nintendo would be incredibly bleak)
 
I don't care if people shit on Nintendo. I just don't like it when people do it wrongly.
 
user784668
I don't have a Nintendo to shit on.
 
I've been (re)playing some Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door recently.
Still holds up.
 
8:16 PM
Meh. Paper Mario makes me upset.
 
what about LOZ
 
It's so fucking good. Or at least the two first games were.
 
Yeah I really liked the first two games. They're really really good games.
It's just the stuff after it.. meh
It's like Spyro
The first few games were great and then it went downhill.
 
Well, it's when they stopped being RPGs that they started sucking.
 
Sticker Star is such a bad game.
I actually have buyer's remorse.
 
8:20 PM
Good soundtrack though.
 
I think Nintendo slapped Paper Mario on it as a quick cash grab.
Stupid
 
Wait, Sticker Star wasn't made by Intelligent Systems.
Or maybe it was.
 
> After E3 2010, a demo of this build was previewed to Shigeru Miyamoto, who was reportedly unimpressed, dismissing it as "just a port of the GC version"
Eh, Miyamoto, the guy who keeps asking for enhanced Zelda remakes, dismisses it as a port.
 
As much as I like Miyamoto, Sticker Star is garbage because of him :v
 
8:25 PM
Yeah, sometimes, he gets weird.
 
> This is the first Paper Mario game not to include enemy Tattles, recipes, Clubbas, Koopatrols, Crazy Dayzees, Amazy Dayzees, Gloombas, Frost Piranhas, Putrid Piranhas, Clefts, the Merlon clan, or Whacka. This is because Shigeru Miyamoto did not want characters exclusive to the Paper Mario series in the game, besides Kersti.
 
Also, he hates plots.
> Early in development, Miyamoto also encouraged the developers to keep the story to a minimum
Well, damn.
His storyphobia keeps getting worse.
 
He pretty much ruined the game.
 
That said, Yahtzee made a pretty good review of it.
 
user784668
Lol Celtic.
 
8:29 PM
I'm probably not going to buy the next Paper Mario game, if it ever exists.
 
8:40 PM
Or you could, ya know, wait a bit after release and check a few Lets Plays.
 
Ell
my bro wants me to teach him programming
I have no idea where to start or if to
 
Teach him Python.
 
Ell
I was thinking that
I'm already teaching my twin python
Or trying at least. But he has more will power
and self studies a bit more
 
user784668
Teach him Haskell.
 
Ell
I think c++ would be too difficult for me to teach
@Fanael I can't write haskell :/
 
user784668
8:42 PM
Make him lift 100 monads every day.
 
Ell
:P
 
@Fanael Lifting is pure so you can easily parallelize it.
 
@Ell then learn it
 
@PolymorphicPotato But you still have only two arms.
 
Ell
8:45 PM
@BartekBanachewicz No chance :P
 
@EtiennedeMartel As well as two legs, a penis and a neck.
 
@PolymorphicPotato That's sexist.
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz I can't learn it just to teach it
I need to be able to teach the right things
 
@EtiennedeMartel Strap-on works as well.
 
Ell
@PolymorphicPotato What? You only have one penis? hahaha
 
8:46 PM
Besides, there are people who have less than two arms, so I deem you armcountist.
 
Speaking of, I have my head full of MonadBaseControl and it’s making me dizzy >.>
 
@Ell no seriously if you think Ruby is a better language than Lua then just remind me to not give you any tips WRT PLs
 
user784668
@EtiennedeMartel I'm a nymphaea, I find that speciesist.
 
I have to write that down sometime
SO chat should have user annotation features
Puppy: ignoramus
Robot: robot
 
user784668
Bartek: bartek
 
8:48 PM
see
that would be really helpful
 
potato :: forall a. a
 
@PolymorphicPotato I don't know who you are but I like you already
 
@Ell I have zero penises.
 
inb4 Sorella in disguise
 
@BartekBanachewicz Who I am depends on where you use me.
 
8:50 PM
@PolymorphicPotato is that a polymorphic pickup line?
 
user784668
Pickup line?
 
user784668
 
Too obvious
 
I should've seen that coming.
But yeah 2.4/10 at most
 
user784668
Yeah, it's not polymorphic.
 
8:55 PM
I don't marry strangers. :E
I don't marry at all, actually.
 
We will be performing a brief read-only test of the Oregon data center tonight: http://stackstatus.net/post/93337822009/read-only-test-july-30th-2014
 
This is not a good time feeds.
 
Origami data center.
 

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