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Xeo
5:03 PM
oooh. The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky is out on Steam
 
@Jefffrey Oh ok you're still young.
Padova is fuller of jobs than Sicilia I think :-)
 
@HakanBoztepe The mafia always have open vacancies :P
 
lol
 
Except that they take your money.
 
5:05 PM
@user3892448 I call bullshit!
 
Ell
Hi scott
 
@thecoshman I bet bullshit won't talk back.
 
Xeo
@user3892448 I like you already.
 
Nice answer. I vote to keep him.
 
5:08 PM
@StackedCrooked "open vacancies"? As opposed to "closed vacancies"?
 
They have those too.
But you got to know people :P
 
@user3892448 but if it did, what would it say o_0
 
@MartinJames threw an ice cream stick for muttkins and made her day.
 
@thecoshman "You must be happy not to have an odour phone."
 
@user3892448 ¬_¬ damn hipster
 
5:12 PM
DYEL?
 
@Puppy Heh - I've been pushing choc-ice wrappers through Bailey. He doesn't seem to mind much:)
 
for some reason Daisy goes nuts for these ice lollies
 
Yeah - dogs do seem to like ice for some reason, even ice cubes with no added flavours.
 
Xeo
They don't have many options to cool down
 
@MartinJames Maybe because their tongue is basically their cooling system.
One way to cool down is death.
But that's not the preferred way.
 
5:17 PM
that escalated rather quickly
 
@StackedCrooked There's that, but even in wintertime, Bailey will chomp down ice cubes.
 
I'm very new to C++. Is it fun to learn/use? I have never used an object-oriented language other than JavaScript before.
 
in F#, 2 mins ago, by user3892448
Inheritance is the base class of all evil.
 
@user3892448 It's fun IMO.
 
@user3892448 No, it's not fun to learn, write, compile, link or debug.
 
5:19 PM
Debugging is rarely fun.
 
@user3892448 True, which is why so many post SO questions without doing any debugging at all first.
3
 
@user3892448 No, don't use C++, unless you absolutely have to.
 
@user3892448 I really like it. But it definitely depends on you and your attitude.
 
So many different answers!
 
it's not for the faint of heart or the weak of mind.
 
5:21 PM
If you put it that way he is going to go for it.
Do you realize you are sending a pure soul into hell?
 
oh it's really not that bad.
 
@MartinJames wait, you can debug your own problems?!
 
I have written a few simple programs already and they were quite fun. :P
 
@thecoshman heresy.
 
But I haven't used many advanced language features yet.
 
5:22 PM
@user3892448 They were shit, with an overwhelming likelihood.
 
@thecoshman lol, occasionally..
 
@Puppy Probably. :P
 
fair enough.
 
@Puppy probably more likely to be pointless
 
everybody writes shit code.
 
5:23 PM
@user3892448 Meh, I like it. The same way that some people are masochists and/or have Stockholm syndrome.
 
worthwhile projects != easy projects
 
I think my introduction to the language (Accelerated C++) caused my fascination for the language. It had elegant examples of how to use algorithms.
 
programming just isn't the discipline where you have the time or money to get everything right.
 
Also it explained how to do copy-on-write. Back then I thought it was really cool. (2004).
 
Where's bartek when you need him
 
5:24 PM
@Jefffrey When do you need Bartek?!
 
when someone is doing the biggest mistake of their life
(give C++ a try)
 
@StackedCrooked my introduction to the language left me with more problems than it was worth, mind you my introduction to C++ was in 2002.... so most of the examples at the time were shit.
 
Bartek doesn't know C++, fyi
 
@Puppy well, it's the good old cost/time/quality triangle
@ParkYoung-Bae s/C\+\+/anything/
 
@Mgetz Most of the examples now are shit.
 
5:27 PM
@Puppy It was this one: ideone.com/ByXwNB.
 
eh that's fine I guess
 
@user3892448 You're not using null-terminated strings and namespace std;. I like you already.
 
I read on Stack Overflow that using namespace std; was bad.
 
Xeo
The F/SN: Unlimited Blade Works TV Trailer looks daaaaamn fine. /cc @StackedCrooked @Mysticial @ScarletAmaranth
 
5:29 PM
@user3892448 It is.
 
It makes sense, for the same reason you wouldn’t make everything a property of the global object in JavaScript.
 
Xeo
ufotable knows exactly how to get your anticipation going
 
I think.
No idea what a null-terminated string is, though. I'll look it up.
 
@Xeo indeed
@user3892448 It's like the Terminator.
 
@StackedCrooked So it's awesome?
 
5:32 PM
Kinda.
 
@user3892448 It's like the horribleness incarnate.
 
Not really.
 
@user3892448 You don't want to know what a null-terminated string is.
 
@user3892448 You should know this. It's really basic.
 
> A "string" is really just an array of chars; a null-terminated string is one where a null character '\0' marks the end of the string
This sounds like a very bad idea.
 
5:33 PM
@user3892448 It's a tremendously bad idea.
 
It is a bad idea.
 
null-terminated strings are only really useful for interoperating with old stuff that uses it.
 
Ah, I see.
 
Yeah, what if you want to have a string "101". It would end in the middle!
 
Good (bad) old legacy code.
 
5:34 PM
@user3892448 Yet, they work better than Pascal strings.
 
C++ std::strings are not null-terminated, unless you ask for it (and even then, they don't count the terminator as part of the string itself).
 
Does c_str() actually trigger the null termination?
 
I think that most implementations have to leave a null in there just in case, but I'm not sure. It's an implementation detail.
 
_LIBCPP_INLINE_VISIBILITY
const value_type* c_str() const _NOEXCEPT {return data();}
 
Yeeey I've pushed and rebased and merged this monstrosity and it works weeee yeeeeey I need a break
And food, also
 
5:36 PM
the interface does not present as null-terminated and that's what counts.
 
Yeah.
I was just wondering.
 
@StackedCrooked Probably not (but at least in theory it could).
 
Xeo
@StackedCrooked Not allowed anymore
 
@Xeo thread-safety?
 
Xeo
wait, the thing that was not allowed anymore was refcounting.
but I think inserting the null at that point is also not allowed
it follows from the fact that &s.front() + n == s.data() + n
or something like that
&s[n] == s.data() + n
that way around
 
5:40 PM
@StackedCrooked Exception safety. But it actually is allowed, as long as the implementation ensures that space for the NUL terminator is always allocated, so that inserting it can't force reallocation (with concomitant possibility of throwing).
 
@StackedCrooked The manual says c_str has to be O(1).
 
I'd be really pissed if c_str threw an exception.
 
Xeo
@user3892448 inserting '\0' with space at the end would be O(1)
 
@JerryCoffin I'm pretty sure it's implicitly required in the spec for operator[] which states explictly that &s[0] should be passable to functions requiring C style strings
 
@Xeo Yes, but the space already has to be allocated.
 
Xeo
5:41 PM
1 min ago, by Xeo
&s[n] == s.data() + n
@user3892448 not if it's always there
 
Unless resizing or copying is always O(1) but that would be weird and insanely awesome.
 
exactly
 
@StackedCrooked It would be completely safe, since multiple threads would be writing the same value to the same location. I'm not sure if that's strictly Standard-conforming, though.
 
I'm surprised that you would tolerate this.
They would also be reading the null terminator.
If they print the string or something.
 
Hmm. Templates look a bit different from generics I'm used to. More like duck typing.
 
5:44 PM
> templates
> duck typing
 
If multiple threads write value 'x' (and only 'x') to a certain address and in parallel multiple threads read that address. Does it require synchronization..?
 
Xeo
@user3892448 Compile-time / static ducktyping, basically
 
@StackedCrooked on CPU? if that value is atomically assignable then it doesn't matter, no
 
Xeo
but that's not the whole story
as soon as you get into meta-programming
 
I love metaprogramming.
 
5:46 PM
@ParkYoung-Bae Yeah, but the standard wouldn't say so :)
 
@StackedCrooked I don't know what the C++ standard says, I'm only speaking from a hardware/assembly point of view
 
@user3892448 I love metaprogramming but I hate it when my colleagues do.
 
@Xeo FSN is getting a sequel?
 
@StackedCrooked It's always fun when colleagues write bad code.
 
@StackedCrooked In fact my friend worked for the mafia before leaving to South America. Nowadays the italian secret services are too advanced :-P
 
5:47 PM
@ParkYoung-Bae I know :)
 
Xeo
@Mysticial No, not exactly a sequel
 
I should probably change my nickname.
 
Xeo
The original F/SN visual novel has three routes - three distinct ways the story could evolve.
 
@Xeo More like another route ...
 
Xeo
The first F/SN anime conflated all routes (and was basically shit)
 
5:48 PM
@StackedCrooked What's the purpose of that? A flag? Might still run into visibility problems
 
@Xeo Oh, hey it's true. I was only joking.
 
Xeo
the UBW movie covered just one route - UBW (Unlimited Blade Works)
 
Use atomics 'n stuff
 
@StackedCrooked On some archs several writes of the same value to the same address will be conflated into one anyway
 
Here you can bet at least 30% population is involved in mafia by family ties or by pizzo.
 
Xeo
5:48 PM
The new F/SN anime also covers UBW (different studio though)
 
@CatPlusPlus Just a question that followed from the null-terminator discussion above.
 
Xeo
and then there's a new movie, also done by the new studio (ufotable) that covers the 3rd route (Heaven's Feel)
@StackedCrooked Well, it's a VN, so what did you expect :P
 
Oh, btw, the Terra route is pretty cool.
I'm starting to like rewrite.
:D
 
Xeo
lolwut
 
noooo there's vines all over iron marches it was my favorite map :(
 
5:50 PM
@Xeo I started rewrite in march 2013 I believe.
 
Worse they destroyed Fort Marriner waypoint!!!
 
Xeo
@StackedCrooked Please tell me you're joking. I might have to revise my opinion of you depending on your answer :P
 
@StackedCrooked I prefer channels for synchronization (as in Control.Concurrent.BoundedChan in Haskell). I found it easier to understand/deal with than multiple threads writing to a single variable.
 
@Xeo Oh, I forgot to finish my sentence. I mean to say I'm starting to like it even more!
 
Xeo
Good boy
 
5:51 PM
Heheh
 
Wondering if I should switch to Diaspora from shit Facebook.
 
@user3892448 queues in some form or another are key I think
 
Xeo
@user3892448 You're a Haskeller? You'll have a few friends in here, then
 
Get a real nick
 
Xeo
alright, time to set up my second monitor
 
5:52 PM
@CatPlusPlus I changed it on Stack Overflow but it doesn't change here. :(
 
Xeo
takes a while
 
@Xeo I use Haskell on occasion. It's very fun.
 
and omg recipes have icons
#progress
 
I need to go shopping :(
 
5:54 PM
I bought a single steak
1.57€
By card
The cashier gave me a weird look
fuck the police
 
Wait, I thought you were in South Korea?
 
Xeo
@ParkYoung-Bae hehe
 
@TonyTheLion Mentally replace € with ₩
 
Xeo
Y'know what's weird - monitors still don't come with a DVI cable by default.
 
5:55 PM
Card is the only way to buy tickets in buses and trams here
 
It looks like a new Polish character :-D
 
Xeo
still that shitty ol' VGA cable
@CatPlusPlus ew.
 
contactless card is good though
 
So not uncommon to spend 0.25€ by card :v
@Xeo Fuck cash
 
@CatPlusPlus yep
 
5:56 PM
The importance of waypoints: there always was a shitton of people at Fort Marriner, now there's almost nobody
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus Sure. I like paying by card better too. But are even little kids carrying their pocket money around on cards?
 
You gave me an idea! Why not create another altcoin .. wait a few years and take the money which has finally gained value?
 
Don't know, don't care
 
@HakanBoztepe That's very very very original I'm sure it hasn't been attempted yet
 
:lol:
Literally no funbucks were created just for that
 
5:58 PM
@ParkYoung-Bae Haven't you heard about alternative altcoin authors getting a tonshit of money just giving it the time to gain market value?
 
Oh, the username works now.
 
I remember being on 5churn one night a few years ago, on a buttcoin thread, when the value was still 0.02$ / BTC
I hate myself for not having bought JUST A FEW
 
Bitcoin itself began with a pizza
hehehe me too :-)
 
no that's just the first purchase
 
You'd be a buttcoiner now
Not worth it
 
5:59 PM
a rich buttcoiner, Cat++
 
w/e
Still dumb as fuck
 
Too bad federals would be after your back
 
It was a stupid idea then and it is a stupid idea now
 
Boost Pool has a really weird documentation style where the documentation block is inside the function body .
    simple_segregated_storage<size_type> & store()
    { //! \returns pointer to store.
      return *this;
    }
    const simple_segregated_storage<size_type> & store() const
    { //! \returns pointer to store.
      return *this;
    }
 
New concept: encapsulated documentation
 
Xeo
6:01 PM
err
> pointer
> simple_segregated_storage<size_type> &
 
Close enough
 
They are just giving your a pointer.
 
bitcoinrichlist.com/top100 -> at first we have someone detaining a fukload of $86,894,366.32 :-D
well enough, but it's exciting.
 
So the UK wants to legalize driverless cars next year
Insurance will probably be like a million pounds
 
You can't convert butts to money anyway
So it's doubly stupid
 
6:03 PM
@StackedCrooked It's not returning a pointer :/
 
Meh going shopping before they close the supermarket
 
@HakanBoztepe probably some russian mafia
 
Bitcoin exchanges do just that :-)
@ParkYoung-Bae May highly be haha
 
Yeah good luck with that
 
@HakanBoztepe haha fun joy lol
 
6:05 PM
I see Italian mafia in the top 30 for sure too :D
 
why does that make you happy
 
The Tag template parameter allows different unbounded sets of singleton pools to exist. For example, the pool allocators use two tag classes to ensure that the two different allocator types never share the same underlying singleton pool.
This is perfect for this room :)
 
> singleton pool
 
@ParkYoung-Bae Well, that's what I call sad laugh.
 
All of my cringe
 
6:06 PM
inb4 manager
 
Xeo
@ParkYoung-Bae not for pooling singletons, but a singleton object representing a memory pool
 
> singleton
Bwaaaaaaaaaaa
 
singleton_pool<int> a, b, c; different objects piont to the same underlying pool
 
@Xeo oh
 
@Xeo lol, I didn't realize he interpreted it like that
 
6:08 PM
Compounds etc.
 
My shittop got hot again! Gonna turn it off and sketch an algorithm on paper.
Later!
 
this is brilliant: orteil.dashnet.org/nested
 
I've found an axolotl! Out of the entire universe!
 
I found a battlefield. With a wounded officer who just wanted to find someone who loved her. Was kinda sad :(
and some forgotten and flooded tunnels with an angel wanting "fresh flesh" :|
 
Xeo
hm.
Soo. What's the best way to get two monitors to kinda-the-same colour/brightness/contrast level?
 
6:18 PM
turn them both off? :p
 
> realm of Bulimyh
> I need a couple decades on an exotic planet to cool off. That's totally nano.
I should stop playing with it before 8pm becomes 8am.
 
Damn. Looks like I got voted on by a sockpuppet ring.
 
> Walter Redsnow (punch wizard)
 
@Mgetz I'm looking at [string.access], and failing to find that requirement (in N3797).
 
> Peter Johnson (police officer): "I hate this place. I can sense them. They're coming."
 
6:23 PM
Hah, even nanobots have thoughts
 
@Xeo A cheap colorimeter.
 
If there is a signed-unsigned comparison warning then most people fix it by casting the signed object to unsigned.
Which is exactly what the compiler would have done anyway.
 
Xeo
> cheap
 
They should cast the unsigned part to signed. (or change choice of datatype)
 
Xeo
> 100 bucks
The new monitor is much brighter than the old one.
weird
 
6:27 PM
@Xeo even monitors of the exact same model, bought together, sometimes vary noticeably
 
Xeo
hm, this is annoying
 
@Xeo buy a calibration thingy?
 
@jalf oh, I had an annoying pair once, one was ever so slightly yellower. Normally I didn't notice, but when I moved a window from one to the other, ergh
I was never able to tweak them ballanced
 
Xeo
2 mins ago, by Xeo
> 100 bucks
 
@JerryCoffin xeo pointed out a much more explicit requirement earlier... but the standard does explicitly state that the index operator MUST return a null for any value greater than size()
>Returns: *(begin() + pos) if pos < size(). Otherwise, returns a reference to an object of type
charT with value charT(), where modifying the object leads to undefined behavior.
 
Xeo
6:28 PM
That's just 20 bucks less than the friggin monitor was
 
@Xeo Good ones are more. xrite.com/i1display-pro
 
Xeo
The old monitor is also much bluer, apparently
 
but yeah, 100 seems fairly cheap to me
 
Firefox underlines "behavior" as misspelled and tries to correct it to "behaviour". Fuck those brits! :D:D:D
 
Fuck those lazy 'mercans
 
6:31 PM
Speaking of which, is the spell-checker in FF done by FF? Or by the OS?
 
@Mgetz Yes, but it can (for example) keep a single charT for all possible strings, and return a reference to that if pos>=size. char_T &operator[](size_t pos) { static charT NUL; if (pos >= size) return NUL; return data[pos]; }.
 
it's clearly got a 'u' in there! 'bee-have-your' not 'bee-have-or'
 
@thecoshman bees have your what?
 
@JerryCoffin I would consider that a serious bug in the standard if that's the case
 
@thecoshman bee-have-yore. Has a 'y' sound that's not present in any spelling, but no u sound.
 
6:33 PM
I have my system (ubuntu) configured for American English. So it's definitely not the OS providing the dictionary.
 
you know what would be awesome for IDEs to have?
something to write scripts in that apply to lines, and give it a range of lines to apply it to
awk-like
 
@JerryCoffin what can I say, I suck at IPA... all I know is drinking it :P @MartinJames knows what I mean!
 
12
Q: How to use American English spelling dictionary in Firefox?

mmrMy Firefox spellchecker was complaining this morning that I spelled 'neighbor' in the American English style, not the British English style ('neighbour'). Same is true for color (colour), analyze (analyse), etc. I've checked in the edit->preferences->content->language tab, and en-us is selected...

 
@Mgetz Feel free to file a defect report. If you post to comp.std.c++, you'll get probably get a few committee members to reply with "no". If file it as an official DR, you'll get a much more formal: "Thank you for your input, but NO".
 
^^ ahaha, somehow FF defaulted to "Canadian English".
 
6:36 PM
@JerryCoffin with C++ it's probably easier to file with MS, GCC and clang... then it will become default standard
 
No, that’s not how it works.
What are you going to file? Esp. if they don’t do it that way.
 
@Mgetz What would you file? "I asked your compiler to do something, and it followed the standard. Please don't do that any more."?
 
@JerryCoffin breaking change from existing behavior actually
as they currently support that
hence why they are more likely to fix it
 
user2953119
Hello! I've come across with the Alexanrescu's strategy based design. At first glance ideas are very sophisticated. Does anyone use that ideas into a production code?
 
@Mgetz What breaking change from what existing behavior? If there's breakage, it sounds a lot like it's your code that's broken.
@DmitryFucintv Very little. His book was highly influential on a lot of thinking, and has influenced coding to some degree, but hasn't really transformed how most code is written.
 
6:40 PM
@JerryCoffin honestly, the main reason I consider a defect is interoping with C code that has to modify a string. Forcing the use of vector<char> is less than optimal when string has the same behavior
in your world of standards your response would fly
in the real world of existing applications... money talks
 
@DmitryFucintv you mean policy based design?
 
bleh, pattern based design
 
user2953119
@JerryCoffin I hear boost uses that Alexandrescu's ideas. But it's open source...
 
I never managed to do something cool with policies. CRTP on the other hand..
 
user2953119
@StackedCrooked Yeah
 
6:44 PM
@Mgetz In the real world, it sounds as if you're written some crappy code with undefined behavior, and now want the rest of the world to conform to your bad practices. In reality, the implementation I've outlined above is nearly the only one that really works. In particular, you need to return a reference to a NUL for every value of pos >= size, so if you try to do it by allocating nul characters at the end of the string, you need to allocate every string as max_size characters.
 
Xeo
hm, the new monitor also seems to be blurry
 
maybe you are becoming blind
 
@Xeo what did you get?
 
Xeo
@StackedCrooked The second monitor wouldn't look non-blurry then :P
 
@DmitryFucintv Some of Boost uses some of the same general ideas (but I believe some of those pieces predate his book, so arguably he used their ideas rather than vice versa).
 
Xeo
6:45 PM
@BartekBanachewicz BenQ GL2450, the same thing I got before
 
@JerryCoffin I haven't actually; but I've seen a lot of code that uses a const_cast after calling c_str which is dangerous as the standard explicitly calls out it as being non-modifible
 
@Xeo eh TN
 
and people wonder why shit C++ is written, it's because the standard forces you into bad decisions
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz what?
 
@Xeo TN matrix.
 
Xeo
6:46 PM
16 secs ago, by Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz what?
 
They typically have low viewing angles and worse color reproduction
there are a few different ways to display pixels okay
 
@Xeo Twisted Nematic -- the actual structure of the LCD (as opposed to "IPS"--in-plane switching). TN gives faster response times. IPS gives better color accuracy and wider viewing angles.
There are also a number of other possibilities, but TN and IPS are the two most common.
 
IPS has shitload of variants, too.
some mobile phones (like Samsung, mostly) OTOH have AMOLED screens, which are kind of "active pixels"
 
Xeo
Okay, the bluriness was my fail
 
You used VGA? :P
 
Xeo
6:49 PM
somehow it was set to "Picture Mode: Movie"
which I guess softens everything
or something
 
it will often turn on dynamic contrast
might enable some additional processing in more advanced models
I think it's a part of BenQ's Senseye trademark
 
@JerryCoffin as it turns out we're both wrong... char_traits requires null termination
 
why would anyone ever use t.T::~T(); (non-virtual destructor call)
 
@Mgetz char_traits requires nul termination of what?
 
@JerryCoffin several functions on traits do, most explicitly length
I think the best way of putting it is that &s[0] MAY be safe to pass to a function requiring null termination IF and ONLY if the string was not constructed with an explicit length
 

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