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user1804599
10:00 AM
> asyncly
 
assyncly
 
user1646075
these days, all that such as AIO and friends is integrated in various ways to ordinary files, and it is common to not bother quite so much with raw. Also on Windows NT, raw was virtually impossible AND did not offer any advantage over unbuffered with AIO switched on.
 
Xeo
@GuruAdrian *Mysticial
 
user1646075
oh yeah, that extra i. makes all the difference ;-) Global loop counter I guess
 
user1646075
10:03 AM
so ... would raw help mysticial? not sure to be totally honest. perhaps see also AIO which i dunno is being used.
 
Sep 7 '12 at 16:55, by daknøk
TIL Mystical is actually called Mysticial.
 
user1804599
Who cares about async I/O.
 
Sep 7 '12 at 16:51, by Mysticial
It's supposed to be pronounced Mysti-shull or Mysti-shall. Not that I care. It's the internet, you don't hear anything other than chat pings.
 
user1804599
It's an implementation detail.
 
@GuruAdrian that pun. "You" must be a strange loop
 
user1646075
10:05 AM
@rightføld db engines. they can get on with other crap while not waiting.
 
user1646075
@sehe I am a neural net.
 
lol
from 1:15 forward
 
user1804599
@TonyTheLion mystical
 
apparently I can't handle four letters at more than 30 wpm
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey 1923 called they want their camera back
 
10:14 AM
inb4 "To kill the mafia we just need to jump on one of the borders of Sicily"
 
without attribution paste.ubuntu.com/9558994
 
user1804599
@sehe cryptic OOC
 
object oriented C?
 
user1804599
out of context
 
you know. When you seee XOR-decrypt... what context do you need?
 
user1804599
10:20 AM
More context.
 
user1804599
Maybe it's fine here.
 
user1804599
I want a shortcut to use s/// on the selected text everywhere, not just in Vim.
 
:) At least the identifiers are opfuzkated
@rightføld :!sed
 
user1804599
Especially in Chrome.
 
user1804599
10:24 AM
I have Vimium but it lacks sed.
 
user1804599
However.
 
user1804599
Making a function that does pbpaste | sed $@ | pbcopy is enough for now.
 
user1804599
I could make a program that does that with a hotkey.
 
user1804599
Angular orderBy y u no stable.
 
Chrome on windows drives me crazy
Cannot type "]" without copy/pasting it
 
10:38 AM
Guys, the distance between two 2D vectors can be expressed as: magnitude(vecA - vecB), right?
or even magnitude(vecB - vecA)
 
@sehe Awesome. Thanks! :D Although when you say nobody uses lex, do you mean directly or at all?
 
@Jefffrey The euclidian distance will be $d(a,b) = \sqrt{(x_a - x_b)^2 + (y_a - y_b)^2}$
 
@Borgleader At all
 
So I guess if magnitude is a norm, it will do
 
@Rerito yup, ok thanks
 
10:41 AM
@sehe Then why make the library in the first place?
 
(And if it is a norm, then magnitude(vecB - vecA) == magnitude(vecA - vecB):) )
 
@Borgleader Ask the devs. It was "contributed" (lexertl existed as a separate project and was basically integrated because "A good Parser generator should do lexing")
I tend to think of it like this: Spirit with its EDSL Is nice for rapid dev; Using Lex complicates life so vastly that it removes many benefits of Spirit as a framework and causes explosion to the learning curve to the point of being ridiculous. Coming from me, that should mean something
Joel and Hartmut both acknowledge they don't use Lex in their projects.
 
Whee!!
 
Realistically I'd say if you need a lexer, you'd be better off casting your parsing in iron using tools like ANTLR or flex
 
I might have fixed the issue! It disappeared after I have initialized my atomic int in ctor to 0.
 
10:44 AM
@sehe Hmm, I kind of dislike using external tools as opposed to having a c++ only solution but then, if spirit::lex is such a pain, I guess it might be the only sane solution.
 
@Borgleader I think by requiring decoupling of source iterator and characters this has driven some good design details for the Spirit library, but see above ^
 
Another weird shit with Clang is that it appears to destroy stuff in different order than GCC does...
At least on FreeBSD.
 
@Borgleader It's workable, but I'd suggest I can only say so because I'm used to battling the intricacies of Spirit. It makes everything Spirit ~3x harder... Yes, it still adds value
@VáclavZeman inb4 static initialization fiasco
@VáclavZeman whoops
 
@sehe No, these are Appenders in a vector.
 
@VáclavZeman then it's prolly different reallocation schedules. The standard doesn't specify when reallocation happens/how (although it specifies runtime complexity constraints)
 
10:48 AM
@sehe It breaks my tests because the logging output is different.
 
user1804599
lol testing with log output
 
@sehe But the elements in vector should be destroyed in some same order, right?
 
@VáclavZeman There's a lot of things horribly wrong with this statement.
 
@VáclavZeman You accidentally depend on implementation details. Fix the tests (looks like you are testing the wrong thing anyways; you're testing vector::push_back implementation by detecting mock ctor/dtor calls?!?)
 
@rightføld Why? log4cplus is a logging library, I test that it outputs stuff as expected.
 
10:49 AM
@VáclavZeman Yes. Ifff they are destroyed at all
 
user1804599
@VáclavZeman lol
 
@VáclavZeman If you test the logging framework, don't test destructor ordering. If you test destructor ordering, don't test the logging lib
 
@sehe The dtors are not called on reallocation, the items in the vector are smart pointers.
 
@VáclavZeman No, you are testing the log output of an implementation detail.
 
Apparently they're smarter than you
 
10:50 AM
Geebus, you are not helping, guys.
 
Jez
hello all. Cryptic Christmas card:
 
@sehe Dodgy little beasts aren't they ?
 
Think hard about what behaviour you can expect.
Loud and clear
 
@VáclavZeman Test the output of something that's 100% deterministic. Something that is well specified, doesn't have implementation-specific semantics.
 
Jez
wtf??
 
10:51 AM
Question is, is std::vector supposed to destroy items from first to last or not? Is it standardized or is it really an implementation detail.
 
Jez
image upload isnt working
 
@Jez another imgur hash collision?
 
Jez
im uploading from my hard drive
 
We've had nice asses in SO posts before
@Jez try a harder drive
@VáclavZeman yes. But you said "these are vector Appenders". That /means/ you're (actively) not destructing elements, you're appending. If you give half the information, don't complain "Geebus you're not helping"
 
Jez
weeeeird
 
user1804599
10:53 AM
Please refrain from posting images.
 
1 min ago, by sehe
@Jez another imgur hash collision?
 
Jez
oh no, it's my connection that's doing it
yeah anyway
ahem ^ cryptic christmas card
 
Very cryptic
2 mins ago, by sehe
Loud and clear
 
@sehe Ah, there is a bit of miscommunication, I think. Appenders is like a file, events sink, log4j and friends terminus technicus. It does not relate to appending elements to a vector.
 
Jez
ha :-)
but what about the 6,5
 
10:55 AM
@VáclavZeman mmm. So what exactly do you do to them and why are you surprised?
 
10 mins ago, by Václav Zeman
Another weird shit with Clang is that it appears to destroy stuff in different order than GCC does...
Please give an example that exposes this.
 
@Jez (ENQ, ACK)? (Enquiry, Acknowledgement)
 
Jez
eh? what does that have to do with 6,5
 
Xeo
ascii code
@sehe flipped, btw
 
@Xeo True!
 
11:04 AM
someone's car alarm is going off and it's REALLY annoying. and it's always going off. and they should fuck off
 
@sehe: Actually, I was wrong, there is no vector involved in this test, only local variables. The expected output is different with Clang on FreeBSD. It looks like the the destruction order of append_1 and append_2 local variables is different.
 
@rightføld what
@Xeo ?
@VáclavZeman coliru plz!
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit STFU. Read some context. This is an issue on FreeBSD that I will not be able to reproduce on Coliru with a library that is not on Coliru.
 
@VáclavZeman "STFU"?
 
@VáclavZeman Please give a minimal example.
 
11:06 AM
What happened to you, man?
Who hurt you?
 
Doesn't have to be on coliru, just provide the minimal piece of code with the outputs.
 
user1646075
@LightnessRacesinOrbit on the upside, you could break in and move it, and everyone in the vicinity will ignore the alarm
 
@GuruAdrian True
 
Can someone light me up about Coliru ?
 
coliru is great
use it
 
11:08 AM
I use Ideone for quick & dirty tests
I see everybody here using Coliru so there must be some reason for it to be prefered over ideone
 
@Rerito "light me up"?
 
@Rerito it's made by one of the users here
 
@Rerito It's Lounger-created and, well, better.
 
enlighten me sorry
 
Actually, the order of dtors on FreeBSD seems right and the one on Linux wrong. On FreeBSD with Clang I actually get reverse order of ctors, unlike on Linux.
 
11:09 AM
Being able to customise the build command and add other commands is a big deal, and the whole interface seems easier to "just get on with it"
 
@AlexM. I know, StackedCrook if I'm not mistaken
4
 
user1646075
@Rerito be part of the in-crowd
 
lol ITT @StackedCrook
 
> crook
 
user1646075
@Rerito just bloody simpler. Code goes in, click, runs.
 
11:10 AM
Yeah, it's real hard to find out who made it by visiting the web page, tbh...
 
user1646075
@Griwes apart from the url?
 
@Griwes Dude, the url is coliru.stacked-crooked.com. Kinda gives it away.
 
@Griwes See ? I'm such a Sherlock Holmes
You guys need to switch on your irony sensors.
Or maybe everybody was being ironic and I need to replace mine
 
ITT people fail at detecting sarcasm
 
LightnessRace
 
user1646075
11:13 AM
@Griwes /hangs head in shame
 
@VáclavZeman don't concur. If you want us to grok a sample, it should be selfcontained. If it is, it can be on coliru. Who cares that the symptom doesn't manifest there?
 
11 hours ago, by Lightness Races in Orbit
user image
How did you know?!
 
@Rerito zippo applied
@LightnessRacesinOrbit "top new users"
 
@sehe Light my fire !
 
@VáclavZeman I haven't spotted how you observe when a dtor is run
 
11:20 AM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit hey newbie
 
@sehe Lines like log4cplus: Destroying appender named [First]. are printed from base class dtor.
 
@VáclavZeman Can you, or can you not, prepare a self-contained example?
 
@Griwes No, probably not.
 
So be prepared to be just told "you are doing something wrong", because I doubt many people will want to learn how the internals of your library work.
3
 
11:26 AM
@Rerito I'm at work don't do that to me
then again there ain't much to work, especially one day before the holiday
hmm
 
@Griwes If I knew how to prepare a test that demonstrates this issue, I would have done it already.
 
8 hours of Ramsay it is then!
 
Same here, did the huge refactoring
 
@VáclavZeman You know what is being destroyed, and you know where. Now go make a testcase.
(If you don't know where, then you did a poor job writing the code.)
Anyway, that reminds me, I was supposed to implement rotating log files and scheduled log files for my logger.
 
Just to know, for you own projects, which tool do you prefer for the building process ? (Bare makefiles, CMake, Docker.io, ...)
inb4 It depends on the project : so let's assume it's a rather large one
 
11:34 AM
for my own projects I don't do anything requiring something like that
I have to use an adapted premake at work
 
Sad to find myself agreeing with @Griwes
 
:D
 
Good evening
 
user1646075
@chmod711telkitty hands up everyone who was on the internet before 1995
 
My dad was a computer/electric engineering lecturer/T.A. back then, I touched the internet back in 1993 ~_~
 
user1646075
11:37 AM
@chmod711telkitty not quite the same, but not bad
 
First time on internet in 1997
 
user1646075
ooh - here's a thing. First flame war?
 
user1646075
shame on anyone who remembers ;-)
 
world war 1?
 
user1646075
ha nice
 
11:40 AM
I think that's when flamethrowers were used first
:P
 
user1646075
i think the chinese made one centuries ago
 
well yeah, the greeks also had some sort of fire launcher thingies
(ancient greeks I mean)
 
When I was in primary school, my dad made me a child labour and I was printing material for his students. Back then, you have to type in a few commands then it would print like 1 copy, so I spent afternoon typing those commands
 
user1646075
threw fireballs?
 
user1646075
@chmod711telkitty that's just cruel
 
11:42 AM
but it has been a while, so my memory could have stuffed it up
 
Time for lunch
 
Now thinking about it, why didn't they throw in a loop statement and printing everything in one go?
 
user1646075
you're probably repressing the whips and the dark damp dungeon
 
that only happened once
 
user1646075
what was the command? close your eyes and it will come out...
 
11:45 AM
@AlexM. Greeks, as in, Romans. The Eastern Roman Empire employed some rudimentary flamethrowers in a few battles..
 
and was in summer - sometimes the weather would reach 35-40 degrees in my home town. Computer lab was always cooler, and the price of being there during working hours was ... well
@GuruAdrian dos back then
 
It's popularly attributed to Greeks because, well, those Romans were Greeks.
 
that may be true, I had greek fire in mind but greek fire wasn't necessarily used in rudimentary flamethrowers
 
user1646075
dos had a dumb loop over a list, and you could have used a goto
 
I see it was used in grenade-like things
 
11:48 AM
@AlexM. Greek fire was also invented by the same Romans.
 
really?
 
> Greek fire was an incendiary weapon developed ca. 672 and used by the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire.
shit, you're right
 
@GuruAdrian would that be DOS 87?
 
TIL stuff
> The Byzantine Empire, sometimes known as the Eastern Roman Empire, was the predominantly Greek-speaking continuation of the eastern half of the Roman Empire during Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages.
 
user1646075
11:49 AM
Thank Prometheus for fire.
 
Greek is quite misleading in this case then
 
user1646075
@chmod711telkitty 87? MS-DOS? or CP/M?
 
It's not wrong, but yeah, it's misleading.
 
command line
 
May 20 at 11:41, by R. Martinho Fernandes
I just like to say that Greek was the official language of the Roman Empire.
:P
 
11:50 AM
Not DOS, just checked with my dad
 
user1646075
CMD had it's loop and it's goto from day one. but 87 sounds too early. Where's Jerry?
 
user1646075
CP/M most likely in that era if on micros
 
PDP11 was one of the machines, it's own OS
 
user1646075
ohhhhh
 
user1646075
UNIX v7 !!!
 
user1646075
11:51 AM
or a DEC o/s long-forgotten
 
user1646075
I see something called BATCH-11/DOS-11 from DEC
 
user1646075
and a few 3rd-party ones with DOS in the name
 
> NSFW stuff: The scattered remains of an estimated fifteen bodies were found at the farmhouse when Gein was eventually arrested, but he could not remember how many murders he had actually committed. houseofhorrors.com/gein.htm
how do these people's brains work
I don't even
 
user1646075
@AlexM. they don't, really
 
(read the article for the actual WTF)
(it's really WTF)
it's like that guy that was so in love with this chick who died that he just brought her in and slept with the body
then when it started decaying he began restoring it with random shit
it's like they're separated from reality
and can't think logically
 
11:54 AM
:s
 
the human mind is scary
 
True. Let's just be cats.
 
and yes, I touched PC back in 85 when I was really young & the OS was DOS if my dad remembered it correctly :p
 
user1646075
@chmod711telkitty if it was the IBM pc or equiv then yes. CP/M for 16 bit micros failed miserably.
 
user1646075
there's an incredulous story about that.
 
11:56 AM
I don't really get why they had to test that Ed guy for mental issues
when you decorate your house like that
it's pretty clear you have a loose screw somewhere
 
Maybe they wanted a formal classification of the case.
 
user1646075
" but DRI and IBM were unable to negotiate development and licensing terms. IBM turned to Microsoft instead". The story was two-fold. The owner of DRI sniffed at doing business with IBM and went to fly his plane that day instead; when microsoft was approached, Bill Gates said "sure, we have something!" and ran off and bought a thing called Q-DOS. The rest is history.
 
There may be some machine learning techniques for this.
 
@E_net4 "yeah the dude made a belt out of nipples and wore female human skin while dancing around the house thinking he was his own mother. we should totally conduct actual testing to see if the guy is insane or not."
 
@AlexM. Classification problems can include more than the "insane" and "not insane" classes.
If there's a description to the problem in a way that can be related with past (and eventual future) cases, it's always a plus.
 
12:00 PM
actually in his case it was pretty clear that he was declared insane and not fit to stand trial, since that's why they conducted testing in the first place
to decide whether or not he's fit to stand trial
so it was really a can or can't matter
 
@VáclavZeman coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/ca18c774aa74aa4a /cc @Griwes start from there. Play until you see where you cause the difference
 
Aaaanyways, it's definitely sick stuff, and I'm better off getting back to work.
 
@sehe Thanks but I have tried things like that already. I am actually onto something right now...
 
user1646075
@AlexM. Do you have nightmares?
 
nope
 
12:02 PM
@VáclavZeman Why didn't you tell us. And, yes, then you know it's not a library bug. It's probably something with interdepent shared ptrs
7 mins ago, by Alex M.
I don't really get why they had to test that Ed guy for mental issues
> since that's why they conducted testing in the first place
to decide whether or not he's fit to stand trial
So you ask a rhetorical question in complaining voice, just to answer it with your own pre-made rejecting conclusion
 
yes, I should have reformulated that as "it was pretty obvious the guy was insane, I wouldn't have tested him myself"
 
So maybe you have the wrong assumptions about the goals
4 mins ago, by E_net4
Aaaanyways, it's definitely sick stuff, and I'm better off getting back to work.
^ +1
 
Ell
Are you kidding mee
 
@Ell but not murder laws
must be some background info on that which's missing on the article
 
Ell
They shouldnt stop teaching anything
 
user1646075
12:07 PM
@Ell and then they can allll deal with neighbours arguing over trees, or other such serious cases
 
user1646075
@chmod711telkitty trigggerrrrs!
 
Ell
SJWs make me sick
 
user1646075
"Suk aptly compares the situation to one in which a medical student training to be a surgeon cannot handle the sight of blood" - understatement of the year
 
@Ell what the fuck
> One teacher I know was recently asked by a student not to use the word “violate” in class—as in “Does this conduct violate the law?”—because the word was triggering.
Christ someone should bitchslap that kid out of the class
 
user1646075
"But I want to be rich! I shouldn't have to deal with icky stuff"
 
12:17 PM
Wat
 
> Student organizations representing women’s interests
 
Isn't this matter like being asked by a student in medicine not to show real bloody images of the human body?
 
> As Suk argues, “If the topic of sexual assault were to leave the law-school classroom, it would be a tremendous loss—above all to victims of sexual assault.”
but no, this is too reasonable for organizations representing "women's interests"
 
user1646075
@Abyx yeah, that'll bring out the ancient men from the '50's saying "I told you so!"
 
@GuruAdrian there is no need to say anything.
 
user1804599
12:22 PM
@Ell lol
 
user1804599
@AlexM. dat is geinig
 
@sehe Well. There are actually some shared pointers involved. I still do not understand why on two platforms the destruction order differs. On Linux, the order was the order in which the Appender items are in the vector, indicating that the Appender container holding the Appenders is destroyed after the local variables holding shared pointers to the same appenders.
@sehe Contrary to my previous statement about the order on FreeBSD being better, the order on Linux is IMO the right one because the Appender container is in outer scope (outside try{} block).
 
@rightføld lol
cute or not, he definitely managed to...
... gein notoriety
YEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
I want to order a pizza but I dunno what pizza to order
 
user1804599
hazelnut pizza
 
@sehe I have simply worked around the issue by moving the Appender container into the try{} block and shorter scope and now the dtors are called in reverse order of ctors of the local variables because the Appenders container gets destroyed first and then the local variables append_1, etc.
 
user1646075
12:25 PM
@Abyx I'm thinking of the era when women were agitating for access to courses, and the pipe-smoking moral guardians saying "they'll never cope with the subject". It happened.
 
user1646075
@AlexM. mashed potato, avocado and streaky bacon
 
Maybe something in my shared pointers implementation is wrong which allows some sort of instruction rescheduling by the compiler that results into different order?
 
medieval rock and roll
 
that sounds more like metal
 
@AlexM. it's still french, and still medieval
 
12:32 PM
I'll just get a margherita
nothing else seems to appeal to me right now
 
@Mgetz Yeah they had loop machines in the Middle Ages
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit nah, they had apprentices for that
 
and yeah that's more metal
nothing rock or roll about it
even calling it metal is a stretch
that's really excellent anyway
 
yup
it sounds good
 
ripped and saved to mp3 playlist :)
 
user1646075
12:41 PM
that's intense! makes me think of large stone castles with thunderstorms cracking all around
 
Boss has gotten into the habit of writing ™ after the name of our product, wherever it appears. In internal emails, in changelogs, on Bugzilla, on Skype, ...
next he'll be asking us to svn move https://<srv>/svn/<product> https://<src>/svn/<product>-tm
it's not even a registered fucking trademark
 
write ™ next to his name in your next email
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit no if it was it would be the circled R. tm is an unregistered trademark, used to prove priority if someone else decides to register
example of someone that doesn't understand trademark laws doing it: THE
©OSCAR®
 
@VáclavZeman oh well. I'm having to jump through a bazillion hoops to extract fucking wiki content from a fricking Confluence page, only to then scrape the json bits and generate Java Pojo classes to match.
It can always be worse, I guess :)
 
user1804599
lol
 
12:49 PM
@sehe Hehe.
 
user1804599
Sentry error
 
user1804599
> Undefined index: HTTP_USER_AGENT
 
@GuruAdrian It's different. Sane people can cope with anything. But there are those feminazi who can't understand the subject because they're just stupid. So they're trying to sabotage it.
 
libc++'s std::deque allocates chunks of 4096 bytes. Nice :)
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked Nice.
 
user1804599
12:54 PM
What if sizeof(T) > 4096?
 
@Mgetz oh
@AlexM. :D:D:D will do
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit technically you can sue if you use the tm version... but the courts will very likely throw it out, with prejudice
 
@Mgetz how does it prove anything? and why would unregistered trademarks have priority over registering one? what then is the purpose of registration?
@StackedCrooked Why are you writing GCC's output into a file named clang_output then ignoring the file?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit whops
 
user1646075
See your jurisdiction: "The United States, Canada and other countries also recognize common law trademark rights, which means action can be taken to protect an unregistered trademark if it is in use"
 
12:57 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit It's a secret programming trick.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit so when registering a mark you have to prove it's use in business, so the tm stage is considered that first step. Secondly if a competitor tries to register it it may help you block them from doing so. Registering a trademark gives legal standing of enforcement, e.g. you can sue others for violating it (and in fact somewhat have to do so, or at least send C&D letters).
 
sizeof(T) of 5000 triggers chunks of 80000 using libc++
16 * sizeof(T)
 
user1804599
cool
 
12:59 PM
@orlp s/world/worst/?
 
user1646075
@orlp how dare they.
 
user1804599
@orlp A talk about Java? Fun!
 

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